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[Teneb]

Shakerag: It's a pressure vote. I'm still suspicious of Chaos Armor, but I want abculatter to answer the question. It's not going to be my final vote for the day.

[Theodolus]

Tiruin

Tiruin
what sort of experience do you have playing Mafia? how does it feel to be replacing somebody who is suspected to be scum? as the Godfather what would be your long-term plan to best leverage your position? As the cop how would you go about uncovering the Godfather?

Please clarify on what kind of sort do you mean. Basically, I only know Mafia through my sojourns on Bay12, forum Mafia that is. I'm unsure as to my personal abilities, but know the basics in handling myself. I'm perfectly fine as a replacement.

Also, could you clarify what you mean by leverage? In the long-term, basically, I would be aiming to complete my wincon.

As a Cop, I wouldn't actually know if my target was Godfather or not, given the word 'town' upon inspect is the same but basically, I would always suspect the chance of a Godfather. Basically, it breaks down into scumhunting.

Also, I've noticed you rated Fiskav and borno higher on your suspicions, but went ahead to lynch BMC instead. Why?

Your answers are fine for what I was looking for, thanks. Just idly curious and wasn't sure what types of questions D2 should be filled with. Shakerag cleared it up below.
As for your question, the list was, as stated just above it, flexible. Those were my top three suspicions and weren't intended to be taken in any specific order. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have numbered that list. As for why I voted for him, see below as I answer that question for the others who asked it.

Flying Dice/IronyOwl

Theodolus, you were the other person I saw going after BMC (apart from myself) with something approaching real reasoning; do you think that someone was pushing a bandwagon on him, or was his death more of an inertiawagon? I'm thinking on my own conclusions regarding this, but I'm interesting in seeing what you have to say as well.

and

As for you, why'd you ignore your gut on BMC and go for the lynch instead? What do you think of your decision now?

I believe his death was due to a combination of beginner behavior and inertia. As for my own reasons for voting him, he began to panic in excess as it got closer to end of day and began using what I thought were very scummy attempts at convincing others to remove their votes from him. I would have probably not voted for him if he had remained a bit more active in the closing days and focused on actual scum hunting instead of doing nothing with his time except trying to defend himself. On the flip side:

Spoiler: Meta Tells (click to show/hide)

Clarification: Logically, and based off his posts and history this game, I get a very scummy feel from BMC. The gut feeling that he's just a newb townie comes from reading a previous mafia game he was in, in which his behavior was much the same and he ended up a townie. However I find basing a vote on a feeling that is influenced by a completely unrelated incident to be bad form. In other words, logic and thought based off current behavior outweighs 'gut feelings' based off prior behavior. (That's what I get for typing a mafia post while on a steady dose of percocet)

[Basically what you're describing there is known in more common nomenclature as a "meta-tell".  Which basically boils down to "player a usually acts like x when he's town and acts like y when he's scum, therefore since he's acting like x|y, he must be town|scum".  Some players around here use that more than others.  I'm inclined to advise to not bother with meta-tells in general.  Having said that, there can be some exceptions, but that's not really relevant to the scope of this game.]

Now I'm wishing I had listened to that gut feeling and had kept my vote on Fiskav/abculatter, but no sense in crying over spilled milk/blood/guts. BMC reacted in the exact wrong way every time another person voted for him, making a big fuss over it, instead of moving forward and focusing on scum hunting. Of course I could go back over and re-read it now, knowing he was town and excuse it all as newbie presentation issues, rather than flailing, which is probably indicative of me needing more mafia experience. As for the bandwagon... well, I have a theory on that and it may be right, or it may be wrong, but you can see it below.


Deathsword
So far this game, despite recommendations to the contrary your general policy of 'scum hunting' has been to lay out one question and then sit on it until you get a response that you consider 'satisfactory'. You've asked a couple other softball questions, but nothing of substance. Do you honestly have nothing else to ask the rest of the town?

From where I'm sitting right now it seems like you're hoping to pull off another 'BMC Special' on D2. What's that, you ask? Well, here's my take on how D1 went down. You, being scum, engaged the first person to cross your path. You pushed him hard and got him to crack and start acting scummy. Then Chaos Armor did exactly what you were hoping for and you got the first vote thrown on BMC. You followed it up with a FoS, hoping to get others to start being suspicious of BMC. Borno took the bait and you had the beginnings of the bandwagon you were hoping for. You jumped on and inertia (and continued missteps by BMC) took care of the rest. Of course, your first pick, Chaos Armor, isn't responding very quickly (or is a scumbuddy and was a red herring vote you threw out there for appearances) and neither is abculatter, so it's a bit more obvious what you're aiming for this time around.

Chaos Armor
I know your claims for inactivity, but what's your excuse for an absolute absence of scum hunting? Were you really that positive BMC was scum that you couldn't search around for his scum buddy even? Or did you know all along what Deathsword's plan was?

[Shakerag]

Theo:

Theodolus: Do you feel that BMC's vote on Deathsword was an OMGUS?  What do you think about BMC's arguments about the other players now that you know he was town?

*poke*

[Shakerag]

[Okay, seriously here, everyone.  What's with the lack of posting?  I took a five-day vacation in the middle of D1 and I still have more posts than some of you. 

abculatter_2 needs to post and be prodded.

Chaos Armor needs to post a lot more or ask for a replacement if he can't access the internet reliably.

Flying Dice/IronyOwl have fewer posts than me, and could step it up a bit.

Day ends today, people.  Let's get asses in gear.  And so help me god if you all ask for another extension and end up pissing it away.]

[Theodolus]

Oh, sorry, thought I'd gotten all of the questions directed at me.

Shakerag

Theodolus: Do you feel that BMC's vote on Deathsword was an OMGUS?  What do you think about BMC's arguments about the other players now that you know he was town?

I don't necessarily believe it was an OMGUS, no. More a knee-jerk reaction by an inexperienced townie. If he had voted Chaos Armor it would have been an OMGUS, but he'd been sparring with Deathsword for a while by that time and not being FoS'd until a vote was cast on him... Well, I think it made him realize he needed to start putting pressure on, but it was too late and then everyone started calling it an OMGUS.

I'm beginning to see where his points were valid. In the midst of it I was dismissing him as a bit desperate and focused on scum hunting amongst the other town members. If I'd read through it though, with the perspective of now, I think I'd have probably joined in his pressuring Deathsword and Chaos Armor a bit more. Especially because Fiskav and Borno, the two I had been pressuring both jumped ship, causing me to re-evaluate the 'lack of participation' reasoning I was basing my pressure off of.

[Theodolus]

Well this is a fine bit of activity, isn't it? Where is everyone? I'm going to go ahead and do this then, in case the activity level stays down for the rest of the afternoon.
Deathsword

Come on guys, let's get this thing moving!

[Teneb]

Since abculatter is staying completely silent, I'm going to unvote him and vote Chaos Armor as my final vote for the day. I'm quite sure he used my skirmish with BMC to start a bandwagon and get him killed while making me look bad, since I was the one who attacked BMC the most.

[Jim Groovester]

[2] Deathsword: Shakerag, Theodolus
[1] abculatter_2: Tiruin
[1] Chaos Armor: Deathsword

Day ends Friday 9:00 PM MST.

abculatter_2 needs to post and be prodded.

He was prodded, along with three other people on Tuesday. I will prod him again. If he fails to respond to that prod, he will be replaced.

[IronyOwl]

Shakerag:

IronyOwl: Why are you such a laz  Why did you unvote Deathsword D1?  Was it just a pressure vote?  Who did you think was scum at the end of D1 and why?

He gave satisfactory enough answers that I really didn't think it was doing any good. I had and still have something of a gut suspicion of him, but it wasn't enough to productively vote him.

At the end of D1 I believe my top suspicion was Chaos Armor, partially on gut and partially for reasons I don't remember. He was being lazy and lurky, I assume. I've since revised that opinion, largely on the fact that his lurking seems to have been due to literally running out of internet.


Theodolus:

I believe his death was due to a combination of beginner behavior and inertia. As for my own reasons for voting him, he began to panic in excess as it got closer to end of day and began using what I thought were very scummy attempts at convincing others to remove their votes from him. I would have probably not voted for him if he had remained a bit more active in the closing days and focused on actual scum hunting instead of doing nothing with his time except trying to defend himself.

Fair enough.


Deathsword:

Abculatter: What do you think happened during the night? Do you think there is a doctor or that the scum team did not kill on purpose?

What did you hope to gain from this question? Shakerag's already explained that night WIFOM isn't useful, so what are you trying for here?

Since abculatter is staying completely silent, I'm going to unvote him and vote Chaos Armor as my final vote for the day. I'm quite sure he used my skirmish with BMC to start a bandwagon and get him killed while making me look bad, since I was the one who attacked BMC the most.

Based on what? If you've given any elaborate explanations of why you feel this way, I seem to have missed them.


Tiruin, what's your opinion of Flying Dice's case on Chaos Armor?

[Teneb]

IronyOwl: The reasons themselves were not really elaborated on my previous posts, but I'm going to quote myself.

Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.

Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?

To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.

I am aware Chaos Armor has claimed he was unable to post due to running low on internet, but if he is unable to post regularly for any reason, then he should ask for a replacement.

[Jim Groovester]

abculatter_2 has requested a replacement.

[IronyOwl]

Deathsword:

Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.

Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?

To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.

Specifics. Why do you consider all of this to be like you say and not something else?

For instance, CA voted BMC because he saw an opening due to you and BMC going at it, right? How do you know this?


OMGUS is any sort of unwarranted counterattack intended to get revenge on, dissuade, or discredit your attacker. Actual votes are often involved but not directly relevant.

[Tiruin]

Erk, whole post before going offline got wiped, and I resume it this morning to see this.

EXTEND


Unvote, as I don't think abc's rep can answer questions about how abc posted.

Still: abculatter_2's Replacement: Could you give your reasoning on abc's/Fiskav's posts

PFP, reading it again.

Tiruin:  You're replacing in for someone I felt was scum D1.  What's your quick take on the reasons everyone had for voting thier target D1?

Everyone believed they were right in laying down their votes for those people, and let them stick until their feelings on those people were clarified by their responses.

Tiruin, what's your opinion of Flying Dice's case on Chaos Armor?

He's trying to implicate CA on a probability, and based partly off wrong (or how I see it) reasoning stated below.

Spoiler: Snip :P (click to show/hide)

1. Overreaction? You asked me what I saw in an OMGUS that makes someone look scummy, and I gave you an abbreviated answer because a good chunk of it is held in the definition of the term. You asked me a pointless question, and it felt like you were trying to buddy up on me by not pushing me hard. That is a mildly irritating waste of time, as I respond to all questions, even stupid ones. That might be okay in RVS, but we're in D2 with scum to catch and you're faffing around.

2. Please tell me that FoS was for something other than providing detailed quote-evidence. I get rather sick of people referencing posts without including context, and it tends to muddy the waters. Only scum want to create confusion, and providing the full context for an exchange helps remove confusion, as does providing the post number. Why do you want to make people have to waste time digging back through the game to find relevant quotes? Wouldn't that time be better spent scumhunting?

3. I considered BMC's first vote on Deathsword because HE LITERALLY VOTED HIM IN THE VERY NEXT CONTENT POST AFTER BEING FoSED BY HIM. They were pushing each other over stupid crap in RVS; then Chaos Armor voted BMC because he was being a little suspiciousp; then Deathsword FoSed BMC; then BMC voted Deathsword. They had been going at each other for dozens of posts, but BMC only voted Deathsword after he was voted and FoSed, and it looked like a textbook OMGUS to me; voting someone who just pressured/FoSed/Voted you to try and get them to back off.

4. As above, I'm accusing CA of starting a bandwagon because he voted BMC for the little scrap of evidence that typically starts RVS votes and then never followed up. The initial vote might have been reasonable, but conveniently ignoring the investigation and the game until after the lynch isn't.

Between the point where he voted for BMC and the point where BMC was mislynched, CA made ONE post with any sort of content, and his response to BMC was essentially "Lol I'm pressuring you, now answer my question the way I want you to, kthxbai. I never said that CA joined a bandwagon, I said that he was bandwagoning, which in this case meant starting one for little reason and letting it run out of control without bothering to do any more scumhunting. That looks scummy as all hell to me; it says that he didn't care who got lynched as long as someone did. In my case, I held off until I had what I felt was enough evidence to justify a vote; I may be in a less opportune place on the voting chart, but if it is because I bothered to do something approaching a proper investigation, I don't really care.

Do you need anything else clarified?

Hm, from the looks of this (and earlier point on CA), I'd say you're attacking him on the weak reason that he started a bandwagon.

That is...so wrong.

Firstly, one cannot start a bandwagon with one's self only.
Secondly, it shan't be a bandwagon unless other people vote, and yet this is but a probability as it is based on how victim reacts - i.e. your term of inertia-lynch, which does not relate to how CA is scummy in that manner.
Thirdly, from what I think of it, and from your list, you think I'm buddying you? Ahahahahahahahahahhahaha.
No.

Tell me, how did you conclude such?

Fourthly, that FoS was because of your claim on OMGUS > BMC. While, yes, he did vote after being FoS'd, he FoS'd Deathsword first.

"[...]but BMC only voted Deathsword after he was voted and FoSed, and it looked like a textbook OMGUS to me; voting someone who just pressured/FoSed/Voted you to try and get them to back off."

And here you get it wrong. BMC cast his suspicions on Deathy here, the one you quoted by the way.

Lastly, on CA,

Between the point where he voted for BMC and the point where BMC was mislynched, CA made ONE post with any sort of content, and his response to BMC was essentially "Lol I'm pressuring you, now answer my question the way I want you to, kthxbai. I never said that CA joined a bandwagon, I said that he was bandwagoning, which in this case meant starting one for little reason and letting it run out of control without bothering to do any more scumhunting. That looks scummy as all hell to me; it says that he didn't care who got lynched as long as someone did. In my case, I held off until I had what I felt was enough evidence to justify a vote; I may be in a less opportune place on the voting chart, but if it is because I bothered to do something approaching a proper investigation, I don't really care.

not really. He didn't go all "NO U" on the pressure, but stated what he thought about BMC.

Besides, if you've that much fervor for CA, then why not vote him?

[Chaos Armor]

Extend

I'm sorry for any spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, or missed questions. I'm typing this post as 1:00 in the morning.


Shakerag:

[Okay, seriously here, everyone.  What's with the lack of posting?  I took a five-day vacation in the middle of D1 and I still have more posts than some of you. 

abculatter_2 needs to post and be prodded.

Chaos Armor needs to post a lot more or ask for a replacement if he can't access the internet reliably.

Flying Dice/IronyOwl have fewer posts than me, and could step it up a bit.

Day ends today, people.  Let's get asses in gear.  And so help me god if you all ask for another extension and end up pissing it away.]

It's not just internet. I don't exactly have a ton of free time and have been away from a computer all of today. I do need to post more but can't always find the time.

Theodolus:

Chaos Armor
I know your claims for inactivity, but what's your excuse for an absolute absence of scum hunting? Were you really that positive BMC was scum that you couldn't search around for his scum buddy even? Or did you know all along what Deathsword's plan was?

Not absolute absence of scum hunting but something close to that. I hadn't realized that I neglected everyone else so much, I was very intent that BMC was scum. Along with how some people already asked questions that I would have, before me. Deathsword's plan? What do you mean?


Deathsword:

Chaos Armor: Who do you think had the weakest case on BMC D1 and why?

I think Deathsword had the weakest case. Looking back on it he simply stated...

Furthermore, blackmagechill seems very defensive, even somwhat angry, when questioned by people other than me, so, for that, he gets my vote.

He includes the least amount of reasons and they are a little vague, so I see his as the worst.

"When questioned by people other than me". That statement just sticks out to me. I can't put a finger on it though.

IronyOwl: The reasons themselves were not really elaborated on my previous posts, but I'm going to quote myself.

Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.

Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?

To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.

I am aware Chaos Armor has claimed he was unable to post due to running low on internet, but if he is unable to post regularly for any reason, then he should ask for a replacement.

First off, I did not vote BMC due to your skirmish. If you look back that was my first post and it included my RVS questions and vote. BMC literally came up as my random vote. Furthermore, as I already told Flying Dice, I do not have the power to create bandwagons. You yourself  were the third person to vote for BMC and for the worst reasons out of all the other players. You were jumping on the bandwagon right there. You say that BMC was overly defensive and scummy looking. Who do you think was the scummiest looking player on D1? In my opinion it was BMC, which is why I kept my vote on him. Judging by the way you kept your vote on BMC I would say that you thought him to be the scummiest also. Unless you were just looking for a lynch? True it was a mislynch but most of us thought him to be scum including yourself. He looked the scummiest so we lynched him.


Flying Dice:

Spoiler: Only for those brave of heart. I would suggest just reading Flying Dice's post. (click to show/hide)

Agreed on the Extend. Also, Unvote for the moment.

FlyingDice:

That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.

So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?

-snip-

The questions I was going to ask BMC were already asked by another person before me. I saw no reason to ask them again. It would simply be the same answer. I will admit that I could have done a little less sidelining but time and internet restricted me.

Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?

What do I have to say for myself? What I have to say is that I fail to see how being the first person to vote makes it my bandwagon. Unless you are insinuating that Jim gave me a power called the "Jim Bot Fallacy", then I fail to see how it is my bandwagon. You yourself voted for BMC later. So maybe it is you who I should be accusing you of bandwagoning? You explained it away using the same reasons as everyone else.

What do you have to say for yourself, Flying Dice?

You appear to be ignoring the point of my question. Namely, both myself and Theodolus posted a number of reasons as to why we were voting for BMC; Deathsword was the one who started that little spat of theirs; you just jumped into it and said

blackmagechill:

Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while.

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

EBWOP:

I forgot to put blackmagechill's name in red.

You made one (relatively) valid point AND THEN COMPLETELY IGNORED HIM. That does not look like you scumhunting, that looks like you dropping a vote on him because he was an easy target.

Also, re bolded:

So what if they've been asked before? Saying that you think someone is scum because of a point someone else made is still better than saying they're scum because "eh"! This smells like you trying to cover your tracks by claiming that you didn't need to scumhunt him because other people already were. BULLSHIT. You should ALWAYS be hunting, but you took the chance to just sit back and say "Meh, he isn't answering my ONE question the way I want him to, so I don't have to do anything." You didn't follow up, you apparently didn't even watch very closely, and you left your vote on him the entire time.

So let's see:
1. An early vote for a little bit of a reason.
2. No further investigation or scumhunting.
3. Target is inertia-lynched.

Does that looks like you starting a bandwagon? HELL YES.

Flying Dice:

BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.

Could you say what you see in an OMGUS that makes a person scummy?

Put simply, when someone attacks someone for poor/no reason right after being accused by that person, it looks less like scumhunting and more like defensive scum trying to take pressure off. Of course, that tends to lead to confusion in games like this because (as we've seen) newtown can get nervous and do the same thing. Of course, you could have gotten that from the definition of OMGUS; why are you softballing me?

Apologies, everyone. I've been rather busy with work the past couple days.
____

Flying Dice:
Who's second on your list of suspicions?

Second... I don't have anyone who is a clear-cut second. It will probably depend on what I see over the last hours of the day. BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.

So then.

Deathsword: Could you try to explain what it was that first made you suspicious of BMC when you originally FoSed him?

In my defence, considering the points IronyOwl brought up:

I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.

When blackmagechill decided to declare himself supicious of my post, I decided to see what I could get out of him by making some wild (by my standards, at least) assumptions.

Going to FoS blackmagechill due to what I said above.

Clarify, please? BMC's response(s) were scummy, but your initial reasoning seems unclear to me, apart from "poke and see what falls out".

Okay, Deathsword was slightly ahead of the pack for second.

Chaos Armor:

blackmagechill:

Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

EBWOP:

I forgot to put blackmagechill's name in red.

blackmagechill:

Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.

@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.

So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.

So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.
2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
4. In that same post he said that if he was scum he would try to look town instead of looking like scum, which is circular logic (I can't be scum because scum are supposed to look like town, so I don't look like town, and am therefore scum).
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.
6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.

It's called a pressure vote.

I forgot to highlight your name in red in my post so I made another post after it to add it. I don't see how I was flailing around. I still want my question answered.

I wasn't all that suspicious of you in the first place. But I'm beginning to have doubts. Falsely accusing someone of flailing when they had only made one post just speaks that you either did not read carefully over what was said or are just trying to get someone lynched.

blackmagechill:

Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

blackmagechill:

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

I've been suspicious since he freaked out over the one question thing. One question is a read because it shows you have laxed suspicions. Using hypocritical statements to defend your actions is a bigger one. And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.

You still didn't answer my question of why you didn't pressure vote him in the first place.

That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.

So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?

Anyhow. BMC is still scummy as all hell to me, and that blackmail he's been throwing around hasn't helped his case. BMC: I'm sure you've at least skimmed the tips (or old games), so why the hell are you trying a last-ditch blackmail attempt? It won't help town stop a mislynch, and it certainly won't help scum like you. You have given me zero reason, in your behavior or response, to think that you're town.

Why the overreaction? Softballing?

All I wanted to know how was how you saw it, as BMC didn't OMGUS in the first day. His first vote was on Deathsword, who only has an FOS on him back. You accused him of an OMGUS at that time, by the way.

An OMGUS is a term for a vote solely of being voted. Period. A person can attack others based on his own reasoning, it could also be made for pressure. It isn't an OMGUS (though technically) if backed up by good reasons.

Actually, he didn't OMGUS anyone. You were the first to bring up the notion, and somehow others followed in the belief.

abc OMGUS'd BMC, as Fiskav's rep.

BlackMageChill, mainly because he's been overly accusatory this entire game, then he became overly defensive when questioned, and now he's just giving up in one big hissy-fit.

Come to think of it: abculatter_2, what do you see in being overly accusatory in relation to being scum?

Flying Dice, you could use -snip-s to shorten those posts...

And

Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?

He was the first person to vote on BMC, on a re-read. An RVS question that stuck because he thought it was worth it.

Why are you accusing him of a bandwagon when he was the first one to vote? Pointed out by CA.

Why are you mangling the use of OMGUS?

1. Overreaction? You asked me what I saw in an OMGUS that makes someone look scummy, and I gave you an abbreviated answer because a good chunk of it is held in the definition of the term. You asked me a pointless question, and it felt like you were trying to buddy up on me by not pushing me hard. That is a mildly irritating waste of time, as I respond to all questions, even stupid ones. That might be okay in RVS, but we're in D2 with scum to catch and you're faffing around.

2. Please tell me that FoS was for something other than providing detailed quote-evidence. I get rather sick of people referencing posts without including context, and it tends to muddy the waters. Only scum want to create confusion, and providing the full context for an exchange helps remove confusion, as does providing the post number. Why do you want to make people have to waste time digging back through the game to find relevant quotes? Wouldn't that time be better spent scumhunting?

3. I considered BMC's first vote on Deathsword because HE LITERALLY VOTED HIM IN THE VERY NEXT CONTENT POST AFTER BEING FoSED BY HIM. They were pushing each other over stupid crap in RVS; then Chaos Armor voted BMC because he was being a little suspiciousp; then Deathsword FoSed BMC; then BMC voted Deathsword. They had been going at each other for dozens of posts, but BMC only voted Deathsword after he was voted and FoSed, and it looked like a textbook OMGUS to me; voting someone who just pressured/FoSed/Voted you to try and get them to back off.

4. As above, I'm accusing CA of starting a bandwagon because he voted BMC for the little scrap of evidence that typically starts RVS votes and then never followed up. The initial vote might have been reasonable, but conveniently ignoring the investigation and the game until after the lynch isn't.

Between the point where he voted for BMC and the point where BMC was mislynched, CA made ONE post with any sort of content, and his response to BMC was essentially "Lol I'm pressuring you, now answer my question the way I want you to, kthxbai. I never said that CA joined a bandwagon, I said that he was bandwagoning, which in this case meant starting one for little reason and letting it run out of control without bothering to do any more scumhunting. That looks scummy as all hell to me; it says that he didn't care who got lynched as long as someone did. In my case, I held off until I had what I felt was enough evidence to justify a vote; I may be in a less opportune place on the voting chart, but if it is because I bothered to do something approaching a proper investigation, I don't really care.

Do you need anything else clarified?

Flying Dice: Why exactly do you feel BMC's vote on Deathsword was an OMGUS?  To me, it looks like the two of them were faffing about at first, Deathsword went paranoid-defensive and WIFOMy (IronyOwl's analysis of his posts around this point is interesting as well), dropped an FoS on BMC for reasons I can't really see, and then BMC voted Deathsword and included reasons for why.  What am I missing?  Also, you stated at some point D1 that Deathsword "hit the top of my list of suspicions" (#83).  What made him fall from the top position?

See above. He and Deathsword were going at each other for pretty much the entire RVS, but BMC didn't bother voting for Deathsword until he had FoSed him (and drawn an opportunist-voter onto BMC); he also tried to justify it by saying essentially "Oh, yeah, all that stuff earlier makes you look scummy, so have my vote.". He also cast that vote pretty much as soon as he saw the vote and FoS on him, and I felt that he targeted Deathsword because he was the root of the pressure on him.

In hindsight, perhaps it was a more justified vote than I thought it was, but hindsight is always 20/20. I thought that it looked defensive, so I started putting pressure on him [BMC].

For the last: Deathsword was suspicious to me for the same reason that BMC was: It looked to me like he was panicking under pressure.

[spoiler=For reference]

Deathsword:

I'm sorry I'm not well schooled on my fallacies. Maybe I'll do some research when I become an internet politician. Which particular fallacy would you be referring to here (Strawman is what it looks like I guess)? I'm trying to say that your fears would be unfounded if you were town.

I'm referring to Burden of Guilt

Burden of proof would ordinarily fall on the townies (i.e. defendant) in Mafia, as it is best to treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent. Unless you're scum, in which case you already know who your scumbuddy is and don't want to work to hide from town. Of course, townies shouldn't be preoccupied with defending themselves from accusations; they should be accusing others.

3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?

I went back and dug up the relevant quote.

All I'm saying is, and, granted this is RVS which really doesn't matter, you weren't throwing around as many questions as everyone else, and it seemed like you had relaxed suspicions. Now, maybe it's just me, but if someone isn't suspicious in a game of mafia, then that person probably knows more than everyone else.

Let's assume that I am scum for a moment, wouldn't I try to act non-supiciously? Wouldn't I have asked more question in order to pass as town, throwing random guesses at nearly everyone? From what I know, a scum player would try as hard as they could to look like town, perhaps a bit too hard?

What if my single question was a result of paranoia, of fear that someone might use such questions against me, not unlike you are doing now?

Deathsword:
You're bringing up the Too Townie fallacy to excuse you looking scummy? And why the hell are you worried about people being suspicious of you, if you're town? Deathsword, I'm not positive, but for now you've managed to hit the top of my list of suspicions. Why are you so nervous about attention being on you?

5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.

You're freaking out about people being suspicious of you as well. Why?

As for why I solidified on BMC, he looked like he was less certain of himself and more defensive than Deathsword, hence why I chose to vote for him. After the mislynch, I read back over and saw what I took to be CA taking advantage of the skirmishing between BMC and Deathsword to run a train on BMC, which looked more suspicious to me than another panicker in RVS, especially given that I was mistaken about BMC.

Also, sorry about not being on top of that post I promised, but I've had a crappy day, so I really don't feel like slogging through all those words right now...

Got anything for us, abculatter?

First off, he wasn't answering all of my questions. I had to prod him to answer it. Then prod him again to answer one part of it. I wanted to see his response to that question before I proceeded with questioning him. I also asked him questions that I got a response to but never got a chance to send another barrage of questions regarding those responses as that is when I was restricted from the internet. Then his answers to others and his general replies sent scum bells off in my head. So I kept my vote on him.

Now to the bandwagoning...

How does one start a bandwagon, Flying Dice? I can certainly see how one joins one. My reasons for voting you Flying Dice are as follows: You voted me for nonsensical reasons then took it off to avoid looking like you were attacking me. You jumped on a bandwagon D1 looking for an easy lynch. And so far your voting style looks like you're just following the crowd and trying to get someone lynched.

[Shakerag]

Tiruin:  You're replacing in for someone I felt was scum D1.  What's your quick take on the reasons everyone had for voting thier target D1?

Everyone believed they were right in laying down their votes for those people, and let them stick until their feelings on those people were clarified by their responses.

I can't tell if you're being a smart-ass or not, so to clarify and re-word: Who do you feel had poor/weak resoning behind thier vote at the end of D1?


Chaos Armor: [Fair enough, but keep in mind if the quantity of your posts goes down, the quality had better go up to match.] 


[Bandwagoning: Since that seems to be the hot topic, let's take a moment to review.  In my opinion, if the first person to vote someone does so with good reason, they are not starting a bandwagon; they are scumhunting.  If a second, third, or more players vote the same person, all with thier own good reasons, they are also scumhunting. 

If Player A votes for Player B (who has a number of votes on them already) without stating reasons (or stating poor ones), then Player A is hopping on a bandwagon. 

If Player A is voting for Player B and encourages other players to vote for Player B without giving substantial reasons, then Player A is encouraging a bandwagon.

The reasons why a player does/says something strongly contribute to whether it's scummy or not.  This is why we encourage you to back up everything you say and do with your reasoning for doing so.]