Agreed on the
Extend. Also,
Unvote for the moment.
FlyingDice:
That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.
So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?
-snip-
The questions I was going to ask BMC were already asked by another person before me. I saw no reason to ask them again. It would simply be the same answer. I will admit that I could have done a little less sidelining but time and internet restricted me.
Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?
What do I have to say for myself? What I have to say is that I fail to see how being the first person to vote makes it my bandwagon. Unless you are insinuating that Jim gave me a power called the "Jim Bot Fallacy", then I fail to see how it is my bandwagon. You yourself voted for BMC later. So maybe it is you who I should be accusing you of bandwagoning? You explained it away using the same reasons as everyone else.
What do you have to say for yourself, Flying Dice?
You appear to be ignoring the point of my question. Namely, both myself and Theodolus posted a number of reasons as to why we were voting for BMC; Deathsword was the one who started that little spat of theirs; you just jumped into it and said
blackmagechill:
Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while.
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?
EBWOP:
I forgot to put blackmagechill's name in red.
You made one (relatively) valid point AND THEN COMPLETELY IGNORED HIM. That does not look like you scumhunting, that looks like you dropping a vote on him because he was an easy target.
Also, re bolded:
So what if they've been asked before? Saying that you think someone is scum because of a point someone else made is still better than saying they're scum because "eh"! This smells like you trying to cover your tracks by claiming that you didn't need to scumhunt him because other people already were. BULLSHIT. You should ALWAYS be hunting, but you took the chance to just sit back and say "Meh, he isn't answering my ONE question the way I want him to, so I don't have to do anything." You didn't follow up, you apparently didn't even watch very closely, and you left your vote on him the entire time.
So let's see:
1. An early vote for a little bit of a reason.
2. No further investigation or scumhunting.
3. Target is inertia-lynched.
Does that looks like you starting a bandwagon? HELL YES.
Flying Dice:BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.
Could you say what you see in an OMGUS that makes a person scummy?
Put simply, when someone attacks someone for poor/no reason right after being accused by that person, it looks less like scumhunting and more like defensive scum trying to take pressure off. Of course, that tends to lead to confusion in games like this because (as we've seen) newtown can get nervous and do the same thing. Of course, you could have gotten that from the definition of OMGUS; why are you softballing me?
Apologies, everyone. I've been rather busy with work the past couple days.
____
Flying Dice:
Who's second on your list of suspicions?
Second... I don't have anyone who is a clear-cut second. It will probably depend on what I see over the last hours of the day. BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.
So then.
Deathsword: Could you try to explain what it was that first made you suspicious of BMC when you originally FoSed him?
In my defence, considering the points IronyOwl brought up:
I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.
When blackmagechill decided to declare himself supicious of my post, I decided to see what I could get out of him by making some wild (by my standards, at least) assumptions.
Going to FoS blackmagechill due to what I said above.
Clarify, please? BMC's response(s) were scummy, but your initial reasoning seems unclear to me, apart from "poke and see what falls out".
Okay, Deathsword was slightly ahead of the pack for second.
Chaos Armor:
blackmagechill:
Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?
EBWOP:
I forgot to put blackmagechill's name in red.
blackmagechill:
Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.
@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.
So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.
So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.
2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
4. In that same post he said that if he was scum he would try to look town instead of looking like scum, which is circular logic (I can't be scum because scum are supposed to look like town, so I don't look like town, and am therefore scum).
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.
6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.
It's called a pressure vote.
I forgot to highlight your name in red in my post so I made another post after it to add it. I don't see how I was flailing around. I still want my question answered.
I wasn't all that suspicious of you in the first place. But I'm beginning to have doubts. Falsely accusing someone of flailing when they had only made one post just speaks that you either did not read carefully over what was said or are just trying to get someone lynched.
blackmagechill:
Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?
blackmagechill:
You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?
I've been suspicious since he freaked out over the one question thing. One question is a read because it shows you have laxed suspicions. Using hypocritical statements to defend your actions is a bigger one. And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.
You still didn't answer my question of why you didn't pressure vote him in the first place.
That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.
So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?
Anyhow. BMC is still scummy as all hell to me, and that blackmail he's been throwing around hasn't helped his case. BMC: I'm sure you've at least skimmed the tips (or old games), so why the hell are you trying a last-ditch blackmail attempt? It won't help town stop a mislynch, and it certainly won't help scum like you. You have given me zero reason, in your behavior or response, to think that you're town.
Why the overreaction? Softballing?
All I wanted to know how was how you saw it, as BMC didn't OMGUS in the first day. His first vote was on Deathsword, who only has an FOS on him back. You accused him of an OMGUS at that time, by the way.
An OMGUS is a term for a vote solely of being voted. Period. A person can attack others based on his own reasoning, it could also be made for pressure. It isn't an OMGUS (though technically) if backed up by good reasons.
Actually, he didn't OMGUS anyone. You were the first to bring up the notion, and somehow others followed in the belief.
abc OMGUS'd BMC, as Fiskav's rep.
BlackMageChill, mainly because he's been overly accusatory this entire game, then he became overly defensive when questioned, and now he's just giving up in one big hissy-fit.
Come to think of it: abculatter_2, what do you see in being overly accusatory in relation to being scum?
Flying Dice, you could use -snip-s to shorten those posts...
And Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?
He was the first person to vote on BMC, on a re-read. An RVS question that stuck because he thought it was worth it.
Why are you accusing him of a bandwagon when he was the first one to vote?
Why are you mangling the use of OMGUS?
1. Overreaction? You asked me what I saw in an OMGUS that makes someone look scummy, and I gave you an abbreviated answer because a good chunk of it is held in the definition of the term. You asked me a pointless question, and it felt like you were trying to buddy up on me by not pushing me hard. That is a mildly irritating waste of time, as I respond to all questions, even stupid ones. That might be okay in RVS, but we're in D2 with scum to catch and you're faffing around.
2. Please tell me that FoS was for something other than providing detailed quote-evidence. I get rather sick of people referencing posts without including context, and it tends to muddy the waters. Only scum want to create confusion, and providing the full context for an exchange helps remove confusion, as does providing the
post number. Why do you want to make people have to waste time digging back through the game to find relevant quotes? Wouldn't that time be better spent scumhunting?
3. I considered BMC's first vote on Deathsword because HE LITERALLY VOTED HIM IN THE VERY NEXT CONTENT POST AFTER BEING FoSED BY HIM. They were pushing each other over stupid crap in RVS; then Chaos Armor voted BMC because he was being a little suspiciousp; then Deathsword FoSed BMC; then BMC voted Deathsword. They had been going at each other for dozens of posts, but BMC only voted Deathsword after he was voted and FoSed, and it looked like a textbook OMGUS to me; voting someone who just pressured/FoSed/Voted you to try and get them to back off.
4. As above, I'm accusing CA of
starting a bandwagon because he voted BMC for the little scrap of evidence that typically starts RVS votes and then
never followed up. The
initial vote might have been reasonable,
but conveniently ignoring the investigation and the game until after the lynch isn't.
Between the point where he voted for BMC and the point where BMC was mislynched, CA made ONE post with any sort of content, and his response to BMC was essentially "Lol I'm pressuring you, now answer my question the way I want you to, kthxbai. I never said that CA
joined a bandwagon, I said that he was bandwagoning, which in this case meant starting one for little reason and letting it run out of control without bothering to do any more scumhunting. That looks scummy as all hell to me; it says that he didn't care
who got lynched as long as someone did. In my case, I held off until I had what I felt was enough evidence to justify a vote; I may be in a less opportune place on the voting chart, but if it is because I bothered to do something approaching a proper investigation, I don't really care.
Do you need anything else clarified?
Flying Dice: Why exactly do you feel BMC's vote on Deathsword was an OMGUS? To me, it looks like the two of them were faffing about at first, Deathsword went paranoid-defensive and WIFOMy (IronyOwl's analysis of his posts around this point is interesting as well), dropped an FoS on BMC for reasons I can't really see, and then BMC voted Deathsword and included reasons for why. What am I missing? Also, you stated at some point D1 that Deathsword "hit the top of my list of suspicions" (#83). What made him fall from the top position?
See above. He and Deathsword were going at each other for pretty much the entire RVS, but BMC didn't bother voting for Deathsword until he had FoSed him (and drawn an opportunist-voter onto BMC); he also tried to justify it by saying essentially "Oh, yeah, all that stuff earlier makes you look scummy, so have my vote.". He also cast that vote pretty much as soon as he saw the vote and FoS on him, and I felt that he targeted Deathsword because he was the root of the pressure on him.
In hindsight, perhaps it was a more justified vote than I thought it was, but hindsight is always 20/20. I thought that it looked defensive, so I started putting pressure on him [BMC].
For the last: Deathsword was suspicious to me for the same reason that BMC was: It looked to me like he was panicking under pressure.
Deathsword:
I'm sorry I'm not well schooled on my fallacies. Maybe I'll do some research when I become an internet politician. Which particular fallacy would you be referring to here (Strawman is what it looks like I guess)? I'm trying to say that your fears would be unfounded if you were town.
I'm referring to Burden of Guilt
Burden of proof would ordinarily fall on the townies (i.e. defendant) in Mafia, as it is best to treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent. Unless you're scum, in which case you already know who your scumbuddy is and don't want to work to hide from town. Of course, townies shouldn't be preoccupied with defending themselves from accusations; they should be accusing others.
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
I went back and dug up the relevant quote.
All I'm saying is, and, granted this is RVS which really doesn't matter, you weren't throwing around as many questions as everyone else, and it seemed like you had relaxed suspicions. Now, maybe it's just me, but if someone isn't suspicious in a game of mafia, then that person probably knows more than everyone else.
Let's assume that I am scum for a moment, wouldn't I try to act non-supiciously? Wouldn't I have asked more question in order to pass as town, throwing random guesses at nearly everyone? From what I know, a scum player would try as hard as they could to look like town, perhaps a bit too hard?
What if my single question was a result of paranoia, of fear that someone might use such questions against me, not unlike you are doing now?
Deathsword:
You're bringing up the Too Townie fallacy to excuse you looking scummy? And why the hell are you worried about people being suspicious of you, if you're town? Deathsword, I'm not positive, but for now you've managed to hit the top of my list of suspicions. Why are you so nervous about attention being on you?
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.
You're freaking out about people being suspicious of you as well. Why?
As for why I solidified on BMC, he looked like he was less certain of himself and more defensive than Deathsword, hence why I chose to vote for him. After the mislynch, I read back over and saw what I took to be CA taking advantage of the skirmishing between BMC and Deathsword to run a train on BMC, which looked more suspicious to me than another panicker in RVS, especially given that I was mistaken about BMC.
Also, sorry about not being on top of that post I promised, but I've had a crappy day, so I really don't feel like slogging through all those words right now...
Got anything for us, abculatter?
Author
Topic: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: GAME OVER, Scum Victory! (Read 64607 times)