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Author Topic: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: GAME OVER, Scum Victory!  (Read 65443 times)

Jim Groovester

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #195 on: June 22, 2012, 07:03:49 pm »

[3] Deathsword: Shakerag, Theodolus, IronyOwl
[1] Chaos Armor: Deathsword
[1] Flying Dice: Chaos Armor

Day ends Today 9:00 PM MST, in ~4 hours.

Two votes for an extension. Three are needed to extend the day to Tuesday.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #196 on: June 22, 2012, 07:04:27 pm »

Extend.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #197 on: June 22, 2012, 07:06:36 pm »

Day has been extended to Tuesday 9:00 PM MST.
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Shakerag

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #198 on: June 22, 2012, 09:29:57 pm »

Extend.

Was this reflexive or is there a method to your madness?

IronyOwl

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #199 on: June 22, 2012, 09:33:14 pm »

I'd like Deathsword to defend himself and hopefully learn something. I don't feel we've got a good enough grasp on him to lynch him yet, nor do I feel everyone's said their piece and done what they need to do.

Besides, we can always just shorten.
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The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Tiruin

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #200 on: June 22, 2012, 11:57:36 pm »

Extend PFP.


Post in ~ 7 hours...
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Flying Dice

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2 Starts Well!
« Reply #201 on: June 23, 2012, 09:44:55 am »

Flying Dice: Honestly, as of right now, I'm not really seeing Chaos Armor as terribly scummy nor a bandwagon starter.  Looking back at early D1, I see newbie behavior, and I see that he possibly had a good point on BMC's claim of "being suspicious of Deathsword the whole game" ... because the game had been going for all of four hours at that point.  Do you think that's valid in context?

Looking back on it, I do, to a certain degree. I've been going over that stretch of time more carefully, and I believe that it could have been either newbish behavior or scummish behavior, hence why I unvoted. I'm going to need to reevaluate my thoughts on this carefully, but I'm suspicious enough that I don't want to simply drop it.

Besides, if you've that much fervor for CA, then why not vote him?

You seem to mistake pressure with belief. I did vote him for quite a while, but (as per the above) when I realized that I could be mistaken, I unvoted. I think that I haven't been allowing enough for newbish behavior; I recall having the same sort of issue last BM as well. I think that I need to take a step back and reexamine D1 and what we have thusfar of D2. I'm not prepared to discount my suspicions entirely, though.

And to be fair, you bloody well were looking like you were buddying me by asking a question that would be weak even in early RVS. If you're going to push for a reaction, do it in a way that will draw more than indifferent snarking.  ;)

How does one start a bandwagon, Flying Dice? I can certainly see how one joins one. My reasons for voting you Flying Dice are as follows: You voted me for nonsensical reasons then took it off to avoid looking like you were attacking me. You jumped on a bandwagon D1 looking for an easy lynch. And so far your voting style looks like you're just following the crowd and trying to get someone lynched.

To further clarify:

You made a 2-line statement of suspicion of BMC when you voted for him, and added 3-4 more lines of content/investigation of him between your vote and the mislynch. Can you see how that made me suspicious? When I see someone vote for someone else and not bother putting much pressure on them or effort into investigation, my first instinct is to assume that they're scum and don't really care who they vote for. Looking back, you did mention that you were having internet problems (though you still managed to make several votes); this drew my suspicion onto you during D2 because it looked to me like you were the one who got the cart rolling on that interiallynch, and because you didn't care enough about the vote to follow it up thoroughly.

I think that I was viewing your actions in a very different way than you are (which somewhat ironically bears parallels to the current situation), and that I did not sufficiently account for lack of experience/lack of time.

I developed my suspicions of BMC after what I saw as a panic/overly defensive reaction on his part. See posts #77, 83, and 104 for the core of my argument for his scumminess. Obviously I was mistaken. I had 16 lines or so of content-investigation of BMC (more than twice what you posted). I don't really see how that makes my suspicion of him less valid than yours, given that I was more involved with pressuring him and that my vote was based on a larger volume of evidence.

Incidentally, I've always been rather hesitant to rely on vote order as a basis for suspicions, largely because I recognize that some people prefer to toss votes around like candy while others will wait to vote until they have a stray thread to unravel, so to speak. Simply saying "You weren't one of the first two people to vote someone, therefore you are scum" seems like rather poor reasoning to me.

As for my voting style...? I'm not sure I understand. It is really rather simple to understand how I vote, and I'd think you'd be capable of doing so. Nevertheless, I'll spell it out in short words:

When Dice has reason to think a person is scummy, Dice votes for that person. When Dice realizes he has misinterpreted or improperly evaluated the evidence, Dice unvotes to avoid being party to a mislynch.

With BMC, his response to a vote and FoS (compounded with earlier behavior) looked scummy to me, so I voted him and started applying pressure. After the mislynch, I reexamined the interactions that started the wagon, and your vote appeared to be the moment it went over the precipice, so I examined the rest of your investigation of BMC, only to find that there really wasn't much of one.

In any case, I am uncertain at this point. Your post could be newbtown or scummish and I'm not sure which, but your actions during D1 were quite suspicious, most notably the lack of scumhunting, especially on the person you bloody well voted for! Even if you were only able to make a few posts, you still should have had actual content in those posts. I honestly don't think that it is possible to gather enough evidence in D1 to be so certain of someone's scumminess that no further interaction is required.

I'm too damn trusting, and perhaps I'm too damn honest, openly admitting to being somewhat hesitant. Nevertheless, you were sidelining and being lax despite clearly having enough time to make decent-length posts. I had unvoted you (though Jim didn't notice), but damn it, the more I think about it the more your D1 play reeks of lazy scum. I might be wrong, but I don't think I am.

To further clarify it for you: I stated that I believed you were responsible for starting the bandwagon on BMC because you voted him and didn't properly continue the investigation; incidentally, my vote for him was based primarily on evidence that didn't exist until after your vote. If you cut the brakes on a car and someone else steps on the accelerator, you're still responsible for the wreck.

In any case, if being honest and open about my thoughts and intentions is going to draw fire, I don't particularly care. I'd rather provide as much reasoning as I can, both as a learning tool and to help town, even if I take flak from scum looking for a mislynch. I screwed up and didn't look around as much as I should have during D1, and if I'm the only one willing to admit that, so be it.

Chaos Armor

On the note of lack of pressure, I'm rather concerned that the old "ICs can't be scum" mindset is coming up again. I don't think I've seen anyone seriously investigate either Shake or Irony yet. It may just be the result of last BM, but that leaves a bad taste in my mouth; nobody should get a pass.

Shakerag and IronyOwl:

You've had your votes on Deathsword practically since the start of D2 and haven't been talking to him very much in the past few days. How certain of your suspicions are you; and are your suspicions of him primarily based on BMC flipping town after he and Deathsword went after each other? Incidentally, why have you two been (apart from a time around June 15th) pursuing the same person to such a degree?


Deathsword:

You've been a target practically since the start of D1. Do you feel that there is a specific aspect of your play that is drawing fire? You admitted that your WIFOM in #57 was one of the things that made you look scummy; why did you decide to post something like that, especially in RVS?
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Teneb

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #202 on: June 23, 2012, 10:48:32 am »

I'm sorry for the lack of posts but I've not been feeling very well. I'll re-read the thread and try to answer anything that asked to me in another post still today.
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Teneb

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #203 on: June 23, 2012, 02:53:17 pm »

If I missed something, please point it out to me.

Flying Dice
Deathsword:

You've been a target practically since the start of D1. Do you feel that there is a specific aspect of your play that is drawing fire? You admitted that your WIFOM in #57 was one of the things that made you look scummy; why did you decide to post something like that, especially in RVS?

Regarding the first question, I think it's because I tend to focus too much on only one player, instead of questioning many. I should probably try to stop doing that. As for the second one, I sometimes don't think things through and up saying something that ends causing some kind of trouble for me, like that WIFOM.

Chaos Armor:

Deathsword:

Chaos Armor: Who do you think had the weakest case on BMC D1 and why?

I think Deathsword had the weakest case. Looking back on it he simply stated...
Furthermore, blackmagechill seems very defensive, even somwhat angry, when questioned by people other than me, so, for that, he gets my vote.

He includes the least amount of reasons and they are a little vague, so I see his as the worst.

"When questioned by people other than me". That statement just sticks out to me. I can't put a finger on it though.

I stated multiple times the detailed reasons for my vote, the first not long after that post, something you conveniently ignored. Are you trying to draw attention away from yourself by taking advantage of the fact that I'm the top suspect for some?

Let me point out where I made my case against BMC:
IronyOwl: Very well, I'll tell what I did read from that and why I kept it a secret.

I'll start with the why: I wasn't completely sure and I certainly wasn't confident enough about what I though to share with others, especially since it carried the risk of making me look stupid and even making my situation worse. So yes, it was partially out of fear and I admit that.


Now, what I did get from that: He seemed to misunderstand (intentionally or not) most of my statements. If it was because they were confusing for any reason, I apologize. However, he decided to FoS and later vote me because I "felt wierd". Now, this is (or was) RVS, thus voting to pressure is normal. However, when questioned himself he was clearly defensive, even angry, and kept re-stating the same things, mostly how I "felt wierd". This has led me to belive there is something off here and thus I hereby clearly and fully accuse him of being scum due to behaviour I belive to be that of scum.

My question to fiskav still stands, I'd like to know why.

and

Restating my case on BMC:

Keeps misunderstanding (I belive it's intentonally, but could be wrong on this one) statements by others.
He voted for me right after I FoS'ed him.
When questioned, he was defensive and seemed angry. Often repeating the same arguments.
Appears to be desperate with the concept of being lynched, and tried to make the lynch seem like a bad idea.

These are the main reasons I am quite sure he is scum, and thus my vote is on him.

You may not agree with them, but they are certainly not vague. So, why is it that you are twisting the facts, scum?



And here you get it wrong. BMC cast his suspicions on Deathy here, the one you quoted by the way.
So I'm a "Deathy" now? I'm flattered.
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Monstrous Manual: D&D in DF
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What if “slammed in the ass by dead philosophers” is actually the thing which will progress our culture to the next step?

Tiruin

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #204 on: June 25, 2012, 09:23:06 am »

Extend PFP.


Post in ~ 7 hours...

Mmmph, RL got in the way...post coming up now.
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Shakerag

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #205 on: June 25, 2012, 11:17:38 am »

Shakerag and IronyOwl:

You've had your votes on Deathsword practically since the start of D2 and haven't been talking to him very much in the past few days. How certain of your suspicions are you; and are your suspicions of him primarily based on BMC flipping town after he and Deathsword went after each other? Incidentally, why have you two been (apart from a time around June 15th) pursuing the same person to such a degree?
If I'm voting for someone and not continuing to question them, then I'm pretty confident that they're scum.  BMC flipping town isn't a basis for my suspicions on Deathsword, but that helped to reinforce them.  I'm not going to go back and review IronyOwl's specific reasons, but I'd be inclined to assume that he's picking up on the same things that I am. 


Tiruin:  So ... back at the beginning of D2 here you voted abculatter_2 for FoSing without making his own points and using someone else's ... but when you call Deathsword out for basically the same thing ... you did nothing?  No vote?  Not even a FoS?  You come flat out and say he's "lacking in trying to scumhunt".  And then the question he finally asks is one the IC said not to ask.  Where's the follow-up here?  I know he's your scumbuddy and all, but please at least try to make it look like you're putting some distance between yourselves. 

Jim Groovester

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #206 on: June 25, 2012, 01:30:41 pm »

[3] Deathsword: Shakerag, Theodolus, IronyOwl
[2] Chaos Armor: Deathsword, Flying Dice
[1] Flying Dice: Chaos Armor

Day ends Tomorrow 9:00 PM MST.
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Teneb

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #207 on: June 25, 2012, 03:46:39 pm »

Tiruin: You've been repeatedly acting very friendly towards me, as Shakerag has pointed out (more on that below). What are you trying to gain by trying to buddy with the guy with the most votes? Draw suspicion towards me? Because you are doing a fabulous job at that. Furthermore, why haven't you voted anyone yet? You keep calling me out on not scumhunting, yet you are not scumhunting yourself.

Extend PFP.


Post in ~ 7 hours...

Mmmph, RL got in the way...post coming up now.
Now would be...?

Shakerag: I've noticed something very intresting. You haven't asked any serious scumhunting questions to IronyOwl. Nor IronyOwl has asked you any serious scumhunting questions. Are you that sure of each other's alignment? Because you have acted nearly identically on the first day and now on the second day. And you are not questioning IronyOwl's reasons for voting me. Are you two scumbuddies? Are you two taking advantage of the fact that people tend to trust ICs more?

Also, would you care to post (or indicate a post with) the detailed reasons you think I am scum? In fact, you voted for me in the very first post of the current day. And you haven't moved it. At all. All you've said so far is: "Deathsword is scum and Tiruin is his scumbuddy"

IronyOwl: Most of the questions I've asked Shakerag also apply to you. You haven't questioned him. Ever. You based your vote on nooby reactions coming from me on the first day and some bad questions on this day. So would you care to explain yourself and your trust on you best buddy Shakerag?


Also: Apparently the game consists of myself, Shakerag and Flying dice.

Everyone else keeps saying they'll post but fail to do so, going for days without posting a thing while they are clearly active on the forums (Chaos Armor being the exception, being inactive for days.) This is Beginner's Mafia, not Absent Mafia. So, really, where is everyone?
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IronyOwl

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #208 on: June 25, 2012, 04:32:48 pm »

Flying Dice:
Shakerag and IronyOwl:

You've had your votes on Deathsword practically since the start of D2 and haven't been talking to him very much in the past few days. How certain of your suspicions are you; and are your suspicions of him primarily based on BMC flipping town after he and Deathsword went after each other? Incidentally, why have you two been (apart from a time around June 15th) pursuing the same person to such a degree?
I've been talking to him as much as I've been able, weekend excluded, but he hadn't been very active either.

I'm not certain of my suspicion at all; I think Deathsword is hands down the best lynch if we had to lynch someone right now, but how certain am I that he's scum and not a noob? That's a very tough distinction to make, especially when neither of us is as active as we need to be.

My suspicions are based a little on BMC flipping town, but moreso on Deathsword's lack of hunting and absolute certainty on terrible reasons, with BMC just being another example of that. BMC's insistence that Deathsword was scum isn't a factor at all- if he had any golden insights into who was scum and who wasn't, he probably could have explained them better and thus not gotten lynched over them.

I really can't speak to Shakerag's motivations, but presumably because we both find him scummy.


Also, why did you unvote Chaos Armor after Deathsword unvoted him, then revote him shortly afterwards?



Deathsword:
If I missed something, please point it out to me.
And this is why I really need to be at least a little active. You missed this:

Deathsword:
To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.
Specifics. Why do you consider all of this to be like you say and not something else?

For instance, CA voted BMC because he saw an opening due to you and BMC going at it, right? How do you know this?


IronyOwl: Most of the questions I've asked Shakerag also apply to you. You haven't questioned him. Ever. You based your vote on nooby reactions coming from me on the first day and some bad questions on this day. So would you care to explain yourself and your trust on you best buddy Shakerag?
I really don't have time to hunt the other IC right now, with newbies scumming it up left and right. He's done nothing to raise my suspicions and finding him out would be extremely difficult and drawn-out, so until I get something good to go on, I'm not going to hunt him for the sake of hunting him.


Also, are you voting Chaos Armor because you're certain he's scum, or because you think he's the easiest target other than yourself?

If you were scum right now, who do you think you'd be going after to save yourself?
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The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Teneb

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: Level 2. One replace needed.
« Reply #209 on: June 25, 2012, 04:56:23 pm »

IronyOwl:
Deathsword:
If I missed something, please point it out to me.
And this is why I really need to be at least a little active. You missed this:

Deathsword:
To further elaborate: Chaos Armor voted on BMC upon seeing an opportunity due to our skirmish. Right afterwards, I FoS'ed BMC. BMC then voted for me. As far as I am aware, that vote would only be an OMGUS if he had voted on Chaos Armor, not me. I then voted and further attacked BMC, with others, such as Flying Dice, also attacking him. BMC then went overly-defensive and thus gave the impression of seeming scummy, which caused further attacks by me and others. Chaos Armor, in the meanwhile, kept conveniently out of the action, watching as his bandwagon/inertiawagon went on and ended with the mislynch of BMC. That is why I consider Chaos Armor to be scum.
Specifics. Why do you consider all of this to be like you say and not something else?

For instance, CA voted BMC because he saw an opening due to you and BMC going at it, right? How do you know this?
This could also be asked of Theodolus, since his accusation of me is quite similar, simply inversing the roles of Chaos Armor and myself. Quote:
From where I'm sitting right now it seems like you're hoping to pull off another 'BMC Special' on D2. What's that, you ask? Well, here's my take on how D1 went down. You, being scum, engaged the first person to cross your path. You pushed him hard and got him to crack and start acting scummy. Then Chaos Armor did exactly what you were hoping for and you got the first vote thrown on BMC. You followed it up with a FoS, hoping to get others to start being suspicious of BMC. Borno took the bait and you had the beginnings of the bandwagon you were hoping for. You jumped on and inertia (and continued missteps by BMC) took care of the rest. Of course, your first pick, Chaos Armor, isn't responding very quickly (or is a scumbuddy and was a red herring vote you threw out there for appearances) and neither is abculatter, so it's a bit more obvious what you're aiming for this time around.
No one seems to be questioning his proof on it, however.

But back to the question: He didn't give any real arguments when Flying Dice accused him (quote incoming):
FlyingDice:



That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.

So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?

Anyhow. BMC is still scummy as all hell to me, and that blackmail he's been throwing around hasn't helped his case. BMC: I'm sure you've at least skimmed the tips (or old games), so why the hell are you trying a last-ditch blackmail attempt? It won't help town stop a mislynch, and it certainly won't help scum like you. You have given me zero reason, in your behavior or response, to think that you're town.

The questions I was going to ask BMC were already asked by another person before me. I saw no reason to ask them again. It would simply be the same answer. I will admit that I could have done a little less sidelining but time and internet restricted me.


Still waiting on a response to the above, Chaos Armor. BMC flipped town, and your shoddily concealed bandwagon is looking a hell of a lot more suspicious to me now. What do you have to say for yourself?

What do I have to say for myself? What I have to say is that I fail to see how being the first person to vote makes it my bandwagon. Unless you are insinuating that Jim gave me a power called the "Jim Bot Fallacy", then I fail to see how it is my bandwagon. You yourself voted for BMC later. So maybe it is you who I should be accusing you of bandwagoning? You explained it away using the same reasons as everyone else.
He really didn't answer the question, instead he simply threw some sarcasm at Flying Dice.

Another thing that is quite supicious is this:
Deathsword:

My top suspicions currently are Chaos Armor and Fiskav abculatter_2.

The problem with fiskav/abculatter is that whiel fiskav did act somwhat scummy (abculatter even commented on it), abculatter himself hasn't done anything that I could consider scummy.

Chaos Armor, on the other hand, jumped on BMC while he (BMC) and I were accusing each other. While he claimed it was a pressure vote, he kept the vote for the rest of the day without giving any more reasons.

Chaos Armor, did you use BMC's attacks on me (and mine on him) as a convenient excuse to attack him, or did you have any other reasons for that?

He was my RVS vote. That was my first post and when I picked someone at random he is the player that came up. I used that pressure vote from RVS to question him. I continued to use the vote to pressure while I questioned him. See below for my evidence against him as most of you have asked for it.

Spoiler: Evidence (click to show/hide)
His "evidence" is literally exactly all my arguments as to why BMC was scum. He just repeated what I kept saying for all of D1.

Also, are you voting Chaos Armor because you're certain he's scum, or because you think he's the easiest target other than yourself?
Look above.

If you were scum right now, who do you think you'd be going after to save yourself?
I'd keep going at Chaos Armor to see if I could get another vote on him, either causing him to be lynched (myslynched, in this hypotetical situation) or having no lynch happen.

I think I managed to answer all you asked. Post looks a bit untidy, though.
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Monstrous Manual: D&D in DF
Quote from: Tack
What if “slammed in the ass by dead philosophers” is actually the thing which will progress our culture to the next step?
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