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[Chaos Armor]

blackmagechill:

Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.

@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.

So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.

So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.
2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
4. In that same post he said that if he was scum he would try to look town instead of looking like scum, which is circular logic (I can't be scum because scum are supposed to look like town, so I don't look like town, and am therefore scum).
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.
6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.

It's called a pressure vote.

I forgot to highlight your name in red in my post so I made another post after it to add it. I don't see how I was flailing around. I still want my question answered.

I wasn't all that suspicious of you in the first place. But I'm beginning to have doubts. Falsely accusing someone of flailing when they had only made one post just speaks that you either did not read carefully over what was said or are just trying to get someone lynched.

blackmagechill:

Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

Fiskav:

Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?

I've got a question coming up based on this answer.

1. I'm looking at Chaos Armor as the most scummy person right now. 
2. Next, this is tough.  But I'd have to say blackmagechill so far.  At least, he seems somewhat overly defensive.  If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword.  But this was an extremely hard choice.

Chaos Armor:
If you were scum, would you sit on the sideline as you are doing now, or try to turn townie on townie?

Fiskav
You've been rather quiet. So you've been on long enough to answer one question, but other than that couldn't be bothered to come up with at least one question for anyone. I understand that RVS is a bit chaotic and it's difficult to learn anything, but it's impossible to win without saying anything. So what's been keeping you so preoccupied that you can't begin scumhunting or at least participating in the RVS? Are you trying to keep from drawing attention to yourself? Scared you might slip up and give a scumtell on D1?

I'm trying my best to make sense of all this.  Which, is beginning to come off rather well now. 

Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?

I've got a question coming up based on this answer.

1. I'm looking at Chaos Armor as the most scummy person right now. 
2. Next, this is tough.  But I'd have to say blackmagechill so far.  At least, he seems somewhat overly defensive.  If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword.  But this was an extremely hard choice.

Chaos Armor:
If you were scum, would you sit on the sideline as you are doing now, or try to turn townie on townie?

I'd try to turn town on town of course. An inactive scum is a horrible scum.

And I've not been sitting on the sidelines. I've been preparing my post along with conquering France.  http://tnypic.net/68998.png

Aren't you being hypocritical since you only posted once and that was just an answer to a question. No questions for other players. No scumhunting.

[blackmagechill]

BMC:
Why, then did you vote Deathsword over a FoS? It would of been fine to vote for him earlier as an RVS vote, when you you had 'Suspicions' over what he was saying. But then when he FoS's you you suddenly vote for him.

I wasn't voting over the FoS, I was voting him because his super best friend/ possibly scum pal voted for me after reading all that pressure. Maybe to apply pressure to me, or at least move me off of the flailing mafiat.

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

I've been suspicious since he freaked out over the one question thing. One question is a read because it shows you have laxed suspicions. Using hypocritical statements to defend your actions is a bigger one. And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.

Fiskav:

Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?

I've got a question coming up based on this answer.

1. I'm looking at Chaos Armor as the most scummy person right now. 
2. Next, this is tough.  But I'd have to say blackmagechill so far.  At least, he seems somewhat overly defensive.  If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword.  But this was an extremely hard choice.

Chaos Armor:
If you were scum, would you sit on the sideline as you are doing now, or try to turn townie on townie?

Fiskav
You've been rather quiet. So you've been on long enough to answer one question, but other than that couldn't be bothered to come up with at least one question for anyone. I understand that RVS is a bit chaotic and it's difficult to learn anything, but it's impossible to win without saying anything. So what's been keeping you so preoccupied that you can't begin scumhunting or at least participating in the RVS? Are you trying to keep from drawing attention to yourself? Scared you might slip up and give a scumtell on D1?

I'm trying my best to make sense of all this.  Which, is beginning to come off rather well now. 

Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?

I've got a question coming up based on this answer.

1. I'm looking at Chaos Armor as the most scummy person right now. 
2. Next, this is tough.  But I'd have to say blackmagechill so far.  At least, he seems somewhat overly defensive.  If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword.  But this was an extremely hard choice.

Chaos Armor:
If you were scum, would you sit on the sideline as you are doing now, or try to turn townie on townie?

I'd try to turn town on town of course. An inactive scum is a horrible scum.

And I've not been sitting on the sidelines. I've been preparing my post along with conquering France.  http://tnypic.net/68998.png

Aren't you being hypocritical since you only posted once and that was just an answer to a question. No questions for other players. No scumhunting.
[/quote]

[Teneb]

3. Currently, I'm looking at Deathsword.  But this was an extremely hard choice.

I'd like to know the specific reasons for you to be looking at me, assuming you are willing to share them.


IronyOwl: I'd rather not share anything that I got from that exchange right now.

[blackmagechill]

Quote fail.

[blackmagechill]

On my part, I mean. I thought I'd gotten rid of all of the other crap in the post. My bad.

[IronyOwl]

blackmagechill:

I wasn't voting over the FoS, I was voting him because his super best friend/ possibly scum pal voted for me after reading all that pressure. Maybe to apply pressure to me, or at least move me off of the flailing mafiat.

If this is true, why are you voting the guy who's the recipient of what could only be a scum action instead of the guy actually performing the scum action? Do you not consider the odds of Chaos Armor being scum to be higher than Deathsword being scum, even though it's Chaos Armor's actions that have sealed your case?

And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.

Is it? What makes you so certain this is a deliberate buddytap followed by a deliberate chainsaw, as opposed to a coincidence followed by legitimate pressure?

On my part, I mean. I thought I'd gotten rid of all of the other crap in the post. My bad.

If it's unclear, just repost it. Better to double post than to have your stuff be indecipherable.


Deathsword:

IronyOwl: I'd rather not share anything that I got from that exchange right now.

Alright then.

However, this does raise a few issues. For one thing, your current sole claim to activity is asking Fiskav why he considers you the third scummiest person here. That's it. You have, as far as I can see, zero questions beyond that one. Does this strike you as an effective pace for catching scum?

Secondly, Super Secret Hidden Plans tend to not work very well, because they usually amount to "I don't want to tell you anything or do anything useful." Oh, sure, you've got some hidden special cunning scheme that requires absolute secrecy to function, but they almost never work out, and then you're left saying "Uh, well, the reason I refused to explain any of what I was doing for three days was, uh, I wanted to see if I could catch SoAndSo doing scummy things, which I couldn't. Sorry for the inconvenience, I'm totally not scum!"

Then you get lynched for dodging questions while doing jack shit.

So, I'd like you to take a good, close, long, hard look at the reasons you have for keeping everything secret, because overly elaborate plans usually fall flat, and trapping scum is usually a lot less effective than pressuring them. They already know, intellectually, what to avoid; you're not going to lure someone into some dead giveaway scumtell just by not telling them what they're doing wrong.

Pressure, on the other hand, is harder to resist, because it's more subtle. It throws them off. They can't just follow a textbook entry describing what not to do when pressured, whereas they obviously can do that with raw scumtells. If your plan requires not telling anyone about it, most likely they've already covered that part by reading the same list of scumtells that gave you the plan. If your plan requires yelling from the rooftops that somebody's scum, most likely they're going to panic, however slightly, at the realization that you've caught them.

So, up to you, but I'm not likely to move my vote until you've explained yourself.

[Theodolus]

PfP so just a few questions I wanted to get out there.

ChaosArmor
As a town member what is the most important thing you could be doing?

Fiskav
The more you keep meandering forward, coming up with the occasional question that offers little if any scum hunting benefits, the more I suspicious of you I get. Are you confident you already know who the scum is? From your activity level it seems you are happy just riding along on the currents, not actively pursuing information from anyone. I'll pose the same question ChaosArmor got: as a townie what is the most important thing you could be doing right now?

[Teneb]

IronyOwl: Very well, I'll tell what I did read from that and why I kept it a secret.

I'll start with the why: I wasn't completely sure and I certainly wasn't confident enough about what I though to share with others, especially since it carried the risk of making me look stupid and even making my situation worse. So yes, it was partially out of fear and I admit that.


Now, what I did get from that: He seemed to misunderstand (intentionally or not) most of my statements. If it was because they were confusing for any reason, I apologize. However, he decided to FoS and later vote me because I "felt wierd". Now, this is (or was) RVS, thus voting to pressure is normal. However, when questioned himself he was clearly defensive, even angry, and kept re-stating the same things, mostly how I "felt wierd". This has led me to belive there is something off here and thus I hereby clearly and fully accuse him of being scum due to behaviour I belive to be that of scum.

My question to fiskav still stands, I'd like to know why.

[Shakerag]

Ohgodwhydidmyinternetfail

[Okay everyone!  I'm one of your ICs for this game, and I will be communicating with you in square brackets like these when using my advice-giving "IC voice".  You can trust that I am being completely forthright with you when I am speaking in brackets.]


Extend.  It's going to happen anyway, and I'd really appreciate it.



Flying Dice@52:  The town's biggest mistake in BM33, [which is often town's biggest mistake in a beginner's game], was lurking through LYLO.  We're not kidding about that point.  Outside of that, the only other thing I can think of is that neither IC seemed to get much attention from the other players.  Maybe expanding that more into: tunneling someone for a bit to try and get them to crack is okay, but make sure you're not doing that all game.  Re-assess your opinions of the other players every so often so you have less chance of missing something.

[I understand it's RVS and all, but asking for who people think are scum within the first 10 posts of the game is likely not going to be fruitful.]

blackmagechill@56: [And what's to stop scum from seeing that, making sure they act suspicious, and then get everyone to mislynch those who are least suspicious?]

bmc@58:  ["The scum are beginners too" - See BM33 for my counter to that.  Also, the usual "do not assume scum are or are not any particular degree of competent" applies here.]

Deathsword:
You're bringing up the Too Townie fallacy to excuse you looking scummy? And why the hell are you worried about people being suspicious of you, if you're town? Deathsword, I'm not positive, but for now you've managed to hit the top of my list of suspicions. Why are you so nervous about attention being on you?

Smells more like a newtell over a scumtell to me here, IMO. 

borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy.  What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player?  What would you do then?

Fiskav@88:  And you think Chaos Armor is the scummiest to you ... why exactly?  [Reasons, everyone, reasons.  If you vote, if you say so-and-so is the scummiest, if you FoS someone ... you need reasons to go with those.]

Theodolus@96:  What exactly is the point of your question to Chaos Armor?

I am abstaining from voting at this time due to lack of guarantees about my posting access as I've detailed earlier.

[Theodolus]

Theodolus@96:  What exactly is the point of your question to Chaos Armor?

I'm genuinely curious what his opinion on the matter is and whether it lines up with my opinion. Also to get a feel for him. Reading his posts to others is fine and dandy but getting a response to a question that isn't asking him to defend himself or prove he isn't scum seems like a better way to understand him.

Speaking of...
Shakerag
As a cop if the town starts fingering a player you know to be a townie how would you go about trying to swing their votes in a different direction?

[And an IC question: how long do you normally wait for a player to respond to your questions before firing another barrage at them?]

[borno]

borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy.  What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player?  What would you do then?

Erm, I suppose you mean this hypothetically?
I guess I wouldn't be confident in defending against an IC, but I guess I could handle an aggressive player. I see you are referring to my post. Why are you jumping to conclusions that I am in a scumteam with deathsword? I thought that was a bad thing to do so early in the game.

[Fiskav]

.

[Fiskav]

.

[blackmagechill]

Whether I am being hypocritical or not is not the answer I am trying to find out.  What I am trying to determine is who the scum are.  Chaos, I am becoming more confident that it is not you, simply due to your offensive nature that makes it seem like you are aiming for a town victory.

Chaos, I am becoming more confident that it is not you, simply due to your offensive nature that makes it seem like you are aiming for a town victory.

  you are aiming for a town victory.[/u]

Why wouldn't he be aiming for a town victory? This is probably the biggest slip I've ever seen. Fiskav, that was pretty deadly mistake.

[Flying Dice]

Chaos, I am becoming more confident that it is not you, simply due to your offensive nature that makes it seem like you are aiming for a town victory.

  you are aiming for a town victory.[/u]

Why wouldn't he be aiming for a town victory? This is probably the biggest slip I've ever seen. Fiskav, that was pretty deadly mistake.

I want you to read that carefully again. He's saying that he thinks someone is town because they're trying to scumhunt and get a town victory. Granted, it could be a load of shit, it could be scum covering for other scum, or it could just be an honest mistake. You, on the other hand, look like you're trying to redirect attention with something that is so far from evidence that I'd almost call it antievidence. Not to mention that your earlier vote

Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.


So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.

was a pretty clear OMGUS. It looks to me like you don't really care who gets lynched, as long as it isn't you.

Why are you so eager to vote people for BS reasons, blackmagechill?

__

Unofficial vote tally (I think it is correct):

blackmagechill::[4]:: Chaos Armor, borno, Deathsword, Flying Dice
Deathsword::[1]:: IronyOwl
Fiskav::[1]:: blackmagechill