So what will you do if Lemon doesn't screw up at all?
Nothing, since there's nothing to worry about.
This is an odd question. It would be like if I were to ask you what you were going to do about Toaster if he plays a good town game.
So then why did you say "When lemon screws up" rather than "If lemon screws up"?
Does it honestly really fucking matter whether I say when or if? I made the assumption that he would make mistakes. Thus the choice of when.
This is a seriously fucking stupid thing to pick at somebody about.
Look, you said "when lemon screws up", which means you were going to drill lemon until he screwed up. There's nothing wrong with that. What is scummy is that you decided to claim you were willing to drop your lemon case when in your original text you had no such idea in your head. In other words, you're trying to change the past, a very scummy move.
So then why did you bring me and lemon up at all? This is the same as me asking who took a cookie from the cookie jar and you go "it wasn't me, lemon did it!". You would of been just fine saying "I randomly voted him" or even "When I voted him, he only had one other vote". But you had to go on and turn your defense into a deflection-based offense. That's very scummy of you.
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. It sounds suspiciously like a bunch of bullshit.
I don't know what you or lemon10 were doing with your random votes. I said as much.
And I'm saying that you saying as much is a deflection-based attack, which is scummy. And now you're saying you attacked me and lemon. Very strange given that you claimed earlier to not be attacking me and lemon.
...
Here, lists are always good things to start discussions. I'll talk about everybody.
Criptfeind - Quiet. Defended against Nirur Torir's attack correctly. Hasn't followed up on RVS questions, maybe because he doesn't see the need. Leaning town. Also he thinks I'm a good player so he is awesome for it. (He's pretty good at this game, too.)
Buddying.
I paid him a compliment because he paid me one. And the comment is pretty much irrelevant to the game because I was making damn sure to be wary about whether or not he was buddying me by giving me the compliment in the first place.
None of you being careful or nice changes the fact you were buddying Criptfeind. You don't even deny buddying him. That alone tells worlds about what you were doing.
You think the lurker timer resets every time you post? That there's a no-lurker-accusation window after a certain time after your post? Sorry, that just doesn't happen. You've participated extremely infrequently this game and I can call you a lurker even if it's right after one of your posts, because it's true.
Never mind your own admission.
Yes, lurker time resets every time you post. Lurking is not posting. I posted. Ergo, I wasn't lurking at the time you made this post. It's a simple concept.
And you use an ad hominem to attack my past actions. How nice. Doesn't change the fact I wasn't lurking at the time. Yes, I missed the next RL day. I'm not going to lie about that, it shouldn't of happened. But at the time that Jim made this post, I had literally just talked to him not 2 hours earlier. How can anybody legitimately claim someone they just talked with is lurking? And Jim, if you thought I was lurking, why didn't you do anything to stop my "lurking"?
But hell, I am doing nothing else. Let play with the bees nest.
Jim you are budding me (and sorta lemon) and I want to know why.
I like your style, Criptfeind. You're going to have to do more than that to stir up the bees' nest, though.
But there's a difference between buddying you and poking holes in the person's argument who was attacking you. I was doing the latter.
But seriously, you got nothing else? Not even a vague sense of discomfort at what people have done? What about Jetsquirrel? What about Nirur Torir being quiet and utterly dropping his attack on you? What about Mr. Person also not really doing anything?
You're not trying to hide by lurking behind everybody else struggling to find scum tells, are you? I mean, that would be the absolute perfect excuse right now.
Somehow, you manage to buddy Criptfiend while voting for him. It takes a true master of buddying to pull that kind of feat off.
Oh, but then you manage to throw in some deflection as well. Good job! It CLEARLY wouldn't of been enough to just say "I'm not buddying you, I'm asking questions poised at people who happen to be attacking you". Hell, pointing out that it's hard to buddy someone while voting them would of been more than enough to squelch all buddying attacks. Instead, you try to kill the buddying claims by deflection and more buddying.
What can I say, I am impressed by bold attempts to stir things up when the game's quiet.
Except that that's not what happened. Thus the suspicion.
I don't really see what this has to do with buddying.
But deflection? The game was quiet, dude. I was asking about a bunch of stuff because I wanted to know what Criptfeind thought of it. Maybe something might've come from it.
You pay Criptfeind a compliment, briefly explain that you're not buddying and just chainsaw defending him, deflect him away from attacking you, and then make what I assume to be a joke about how he could get away with lurking right now. Only one of these actions you've performed are the actions of a townie. Here's a hint, it's not the joke, buddying, or deflection.
So why didn't you yourself attack any of the people you mentioned?
Speak for yourself, Person. What did you spend all your time doing? Playing video games. You're hardly in a position to lecture anybody about what they should be doing, so shut the fuck up.
I've already explained this to other people. If you want my answer why don't you try reading my posts instead of searching for things to pick at me with them. If my answers aren't to your satisfaction that's your problem. I've answered this shit lots of times already.
Really? Another ad hominem? Just because I've not used my time well doesn't mean that you've used it well either.
What I'm really trying to say here is that this plan you've spent so much time and energy defending is not going to help you catch the scum. Therefore, there's no reason whatsoever for a townie to spend all this time promoting it.
And that's still five or six people I'd still have to guess about. You're exaggerating the advantage that the scum would get from narrowing down who the sorcerers were.
And blah blah superposition of motivations because of suspicions blah blah.
You're WAY exaggerating the advantage the town would get from your plan even if everybody planning it out was a townie. What can you learn? Who the scum are? No? So why should we bother? Why are you bothering so much to find the sorcerers? Why do you care so much who the power roles are?
Well, you've shown yourself to be scum several times over. Your actions make no sense if you're a townie but make perfect sense as scum.
Because I am stubborn and determined. Toaster asked me about a plan. I thought of one. I wanted to see it through. I fought for it pretty damn hard.
I think it's a decent plan. Certainly an improvement over assisting randomly. Except for the part where I got all this attention, but I knew it would happen and I can handle it.
So now the WIFOM is gone since you just destroyed it. You think you can handle the attention, so there's no reason for scum you not to try to formulate a plan to try to learn who the sorcerers are. Good job.
Because if I were scum, it would be kind of silly for me to be really trying to convince people to go along with this; too much time, too much effort. I'm really determined, though, aren't I?
This game should be renamed Jim Groovester Gets Shit For Trying To Organize The Town II.
This is his defense when Nirur Torir asks him about the WIFOM. What would be a good way to explain WIFOM? Oh I know, THE EXACT SAME WIFOM SPAT OUT AGAIN AT NIRUR TORIR! BRILLIANT!
ohmigosh you pointed out what somebody else already did and I already answered that great job Mr.Person glad to have you in the game.
Mocking me is not changing the fact that you used WIFOM to defend yourself then used the exact same WIFOM to defend the WIFOM-usage.
Jim, I'm getting nothing but scum vibes from you.
Lack of sleep is getting in my way; I'll clarify later. For now, going from memory:
1) Buddying myself and Lemon10. Teaching a new player how to play is fine, as is being nice, but it just looked like buddying over teaching or scum hunting to me.
2) You cast suspicions on me for my methods of questioning Criptfeind, but didn't directly attack. I assume you're fully capable of attacking multiple people.
3) You overall seem to be trying to act like a "good townie."
4) You've stated multiple times that the primary goal for your plan was to get people to assist, and ... whatever your other goal with it was unlikely to work, but worth it. You didn't properly address that, if you're scum, it benefits you far more then the possible town benefits if you're town. You didn't even accept them, as "you're town." The main goal wouldn't have taken any cooperation at all. You lied about the main goal.
5) WIFOM.
6-10) Lynch all liars.
...
4) There's no good way for me to address it, and I addressed it as best as I could. The reason, of course, why there's no good way to address it is because those are legitimate issues with the plan. But I wasn't lying about the main goal. You're superimposing motivations on me because of your suspicions. It would get everybody assisting, and then there would be some ancillary advantages as well. Maybe not much, but a little more than just making sure everybody assisted randomly.
If you suspect me because I was pushing the plan too hard, I did say I wasn't going to give it up easy, didn't I? I gave it my best, but it's clear now that it's not going to work. Might've been clear before, but I thought I might try and be persuasive.
So if you understand the issues the rest of us have, why do you still push for it? Would you accept the plan if somebody else was the one with all the information and you were left out to dry? Hell no, you have no reason to trust anybody else, so why? The benefits are nonexistant and the risks are extremely high. So why SHOULD we go along with the plan? Yes, this one isn't really scummy, but I still object to the plan for reasons other than the fact you're the one in charge.
The risks are not extremely high. That's a bold faced exaggeration. And besides, I've taken steps to reduce the risk, or at least sabotage my own efforts if people don't trust me. I've passed the list to somebody else. I told him to pass it along if he didn't trust me.
And fucking hell, the plan is to get a smattering of more information about the game and people's actions, with the hope that it might be useful to narrow down who the scum are.
I've been very realistic about the risks and benefits to the plan. And you seriously missed all that discussion and want to bring it up now? Come on, man. Read the goddamn thread.
Here are the risks. You're scum. You probably just learn a group of 2 or 3 people who aren't sorcerers with a chance at finding all of our sorcerers. If you command the assists tomorrow, you'll know who they all are by tomorrow night, ready to nightkill them at your leisure.
Here's the benefits if you were town. Everybody follows your plan perfectly. You learn nothing with a chance at finding who can't be a sorcerer. Absolutely no chance of finding scum.
You tell me, is that worth it? Even if I was the one in charge of telling who to assist who, I'd still just say to assist randomly. There's big risks with no benefits at all.
5) Yes, it was WIFOM. WIFOM does not automatically mean whoever doing it is scum. You'll see townies frequently employing WIFOM when they're under suspicion, as a supplement to their normal defense of explaining their actions.
Really? REALLY? You're taking a pro-WIFOM position? Holy shit, it's like you're just giving up and going "yeah, I did scummy things, but scummy things are not actually that scummy!". No, WIFOM is scummy. Period. End of discussion. You knowingly defended yourself with WIFOM. That makes you scum.
It's one thing to use WIFOM. It's quite another to defend using it.
So you've never seen a situation where a townie's used WIFOM either? I find that hard to believe, with the number of games you've played.
Yeah, WIFOM should be avoided, but there are instances where it's not used maliciously. At least, with malicious intent. This was one of those instances.
Actually yes, I've seen one townie use WIFOM before. I used it to defend myself once. It was a mistake. I even went so far as to point out it was WIFOM beforehand.
What's more interesting is that you're not only defending your use of WIFOM, you're actually saying WIFOM is good. No, just no. Whatever crazy drugs you're taking that make you think WIFOM is anything but poison, I don't want that shit. Go ahead, name one time that a player using WIFOM can make something useful from the situation. You can't since it's not possible. Anytime a townie uses WIFOM, they would of been better spent doing something else like attacking who they think is scum or scumhunting.
6-10) This is stupid. People who trudge this out just want an excuse to lynch people and sound authoritative about it. If I had been caught in a lie about my role, like I actioned somebody different then who I said I did, then yeah, Lynch All Liars, no problem.
Lynch all liars exists because there's no reason for townies to lie except about role information and actions, but that's irrelevant since that's not what Nirur Torir is talking about.
You probably could of defended yourself BY REFUTING THAT YOU LIED! Oh wait, you didn't do that until later. So when somebody claims you lied, your first instinct is to defend lying. Now not only are you taking a pro-WIFOM position, you're taking a pro-lying position. You're backed into a corner and know you're caught. At this point, you'll say anything to avoid getting lynched. Well, anything except scumhunt, of course, but hey, I'm not going to lie if you make my job easy!
I did fucking refute it, you blind moron. Go look at point 4 from the same post you're quoting here. It says I was not lying.
Oh, convenient. You bring it up right here.
You still defended lying. If you didn't lie, why would lying be ok?
4) There's no good way for me to address it, and I addressed it as best as I could. The reason, of course, why there's no good way to address it is because those are legitimate issues with the plan. But I wasn't lying about the main goal. You're superimposing motivations on me because of your suspicions. It would get everybody assisting, and then there would be some ancillary advantages as well. Maybe not much, but a little more than just making sure everybody assisted randomly.
If you suspect me because I was pushing the plan too hard, I did say I wasn't going to give it up easy, didn't I? I gave it my best, but it's clear now that it's not going to work. Might've been clear before, but I thought I might try and be persuasive.
No, sorry. I cannot mentally combine the following statements as all being true:
1) The primary goal of the plan, which could have been accomplished without any agreements, was to get everybody assisting.
2) Jim spent the better part of a day trying to get everybody to go along with it.
Since you admitted that the secondary goal had a slim chance of working, and would have required the compliance of all townies, I feel I can safely rule it out.
I see two remaining possible goals:
1) You're scum, trying to figure out the sorcerers. Distracting from scum hunting with your plan was a bonus.
2) You're actually town, but were reaction fishing. Since you haven't attacked anybody for their stances, this is unlikely.
If you can't mentally combine those two things then you're not thinking very hard. Because those are the things that happened. Come on, Nirur Torir, keep up. Besides, your list needs editing.
1) The primary goal of the plan, which could have been accomplished without any agreements, was to get everybody assisting. The secondary goal of the plan renders it a slight improvement over just getting everybody assisting.
2) Jim spent the better part of a day trying to get everybody to go along with it, because he thought it was a good idea, even against stiff opposition from a bunch of boring people.
This is not hard to get a grasp on. Because it is what happened.
As for your scenarios, the first one is stupid because it assumes I have a complete lack of foresight and memory, because you think I would've realized I would get flak for proposing a plan, since I got flak for the same thing in the first Sorcererer's Apprentice. (Hint: I knew this full-well going into it that I would get shit for it.) I mean, distracting the town from scum hunting? Seems like that backfired. Figuring out a grainy picture of where the town sorcerers are isn't worth that.
The second one is incorrect, because that's not what I was proposing the plan for. But even if I did do it for reaction testing, there's not much to go on. I see a bunch of indifference about it, some opposition, some support, but that's not terribly out of line. There are some interesting windfalls in the scumhunting department because of it, and I'll get to that in a minute.
So you admit the second scenario is not true. Ok. That means according to you the first scenario is true. Problem is, if the WIFOM in there explains why you wouldn't do it as scum, it would handily explain why you wouldn't do it as town, either. It makes you look scummy. It's time and effort you could of used scumhunting. The information learned, in addition to having a slim chance of actually working, wouldn't even be that useful if everything went perfect. So why are you pushing it so hard? How the fuck could your plan catch scum? I don't get it.
Wait a minute, the information I'm looking at is who's scum. Your plan would be very likely to say who isn't a sorcerer. Ah, now that information is valuable... to the scum. It's USELESS to the town (for now). So the only explainable reason I can come up with about why you'd throw away the rest of the town's scumhunting was to get a shot at learning who not to nightkill. Now that explains everything nicely. It's a ballsy move, but at least it isn't a retarded move like WIFOMing the town and defending lying would be if you were a townie.
You know, every time you tell me I should be spending time scumhunting I laugh a little.
And no, you dumbass. Nirur Torir's list of scenarios is not comprehensive. I'm town, but I wasn't testing for reactions. Because I deny him one of his scenarios doesn't mean I implicitly accept another.
And blah blah superposition of motivations because of suspicions. I'm sticking to my story, which I've repeated endlessly. You asking about it right now isn't going to change it, and since you've picked apart all my posts I believe you can read it yoruself.
Believe it or not. (I'm walking on air.) Your choice.
Well you certainly didn't claim something else to be true. Fine, if you didn't do the plan to get assists in and you didn't do the plan to reaction fish, I'm forced to assume you did it to find out who the sorcerers are. That means you're rolefishing. Rolefishing is scummy. Frankly, you would of been better off saying you were reaction fishing.
5) Yes, it was WIFOM. WIFOM does not automatically mean whoever doing it is scum. You'll see townies frequently employing WIFOM when they're under suspicion, as a supplement to their normal defense of explaining their actions.
If so, then your defensive WIFOM failed completely, as it just makes so much more sense if you're scum.
This
This is stupid. You've never seen townies use WIFOM before? You need to play this game more.
No. Fuck you. Using WIFOM as a townie is inexcusable. End of discussion. You know what WIFOM does? It causes everyone else to lock themselves into a useless logic trap with no information to be learned. It's escapable, but it's a total waste of time. And of course, it's totally defensive. There's no way to attack someone with WIFOM. So if you can't use it to get information, you can't attack with it, and it's a total waste of time, why should townies use WIFOM?
Ideally they shouldn't. But they use it anyway, like in situations where they've got three votes and are trying to defend themselves.
So you're saying I should use WIFOM to defend myself, then? Because apparently in fantasy-land, WIFOM is ok? Well once you come back down to reality, we can make WIFOM not ok again and everything will go back to normal.
No, good townies do not use WIFOM. Don't lie to the newbies. Now you're just being deceitful about WIFOM and the dangers of it.
So then why do you care about the information gathered if it's not who's scum?
What part of supplemental information do you not understand? If it helps, it helps, if it doesn't, it doesn't.
But that information isn't who's the scum, so why do you care about it?
Having gone through all of this, do you have anything else besides the same criticisms everybody's already leveled at me? Sure, you've got volume, and I do mean in size and loudness, but you don't really have anything new.
This was a giant waste of time. If you had been participating you could've brought all this up as it was happening. Fortunately everybody already did. But I guess you only read my posts to pick at them, instead of reading what I had to say.
Yeah, I've been gone. Yeah, some of these points were brought up by other people either in part or in full. That doesn't make them any less valid. You used WIFOM. You defended WIFOM. You've defended LYING AS A TOWNIE! You've spent the entire day rolefishing to find our sorcerers. You've buddied. You've been deflecting attacks onto other people who you decided not to scumhunt either much or at all. You dropped everything you were doing to defend yourself from me. You've stopped scumhunting at all except for one question aimed at Criptfiend. It's pretty obvious that you're mainly focused on defending yourself with almost no offense left at all.
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Topic: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Over: And it was KaminaSquirtle all along] (Read 89354 times)