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Author Topic: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Over: And it was KaminaSquirtle all along]  (Read 88774 times)

Criptfeind

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #165 on: November 19, 2010, 12:22:27 am »

Bluh bluh bluh.

I am really wondering about a no lynch, under normal rules it is a bad idea with a odd number of people, but with these power roles that most likely does not apply, I really don't know who is scum.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2010, 12:27:32 am »

Quote
I also don't understand how responding with ad hominems rather than going after you is the opposite of scummy. If you were giving him an excuse, wouldn't it be scummy not to notice/care enough to go after you? It sounds like you're reverse-OMGUSing.
I didn't notice any attempts to pressure me to test for weakness and lynchability.
Doesn't that also mean he wasn't pressuring you to test for scumminess?
It's possible to read somebody without directly attacking them, if they're talking enough. I assumed that, should he be town, that's what Jim was doing.
Oh. Alright.


Bluh bluh bluh.

I am really wondering about a no lynch, under normal rules it is a bad idea with a odd number of people, but with these power roles that most likely does not apply, I really don't know who is scum.
Scum get a NK like normal, possibly two. Town have (in theory) double scum's PR power, but even if that works out to a NK's worth, we're still at NK+NK vs NK x2, breaking even. If PR power is less useful than an NK, we fall behind. If we don't lynch, we don't use one of our abilities, and we don't do as well as if we'd lynched.

But if you don't know who to lynch, Criptfeind, why aren't you trying to find a target? Even if we could PR our way out of this, wouldn't we still need some semblance of an idea of who was scum, or were you hoping our sorcs could inspect/NK scum faster than they could NK us?
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Jokerman-EXE

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2010, 12:37:17 am »


Jokerman:  You're lurky and unwilling to commit.  Come out here and make a commitment.

(Vote to come based on responses.)

Sorry. Wednesdays are work and Thursdays are terrible days with school.

Criptfeind and Nirur are both making me extremely uncomfortable with their sudden voteswaps, and Cript almost appears like he doesn't really want to play. Even if he does, the contributions are minimal. (I know, it's almost hypocritical, but I'm trying here.)
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Criptfeind

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #168 on: November 19, 2010, 12:57:48 am »

Vote swaps? I have voted like one time!

I want to play, but I can not seem to play by my method I like. There is no passion in this game.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #169 on: November 19, 2010, 01:03:15 am »

Apparently my plan is scummy enough to not participate in but not scummy enough to vote me for.

I mean, it was, but then I guess for some reason it suddenly wasn't.
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Mr.Person

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #170 on: November 19, 2010, 01:17:37 am »

I meant to post yesterday, but then I started playing Crusader Kings. Next thing I know it's 4 in the morning and I'm tired as fuck.

I've never put a WoT in spoilers before. This is was just too long, even for me.

Unvote, vote Jim Groovester. That random vote on Jetsquirrel lasted way longer than it should of. Everything Jetsquirrel has done oozes townvibes. He's trying to scumhunt.

Jim, on the other hand, has not been scumhunting. He's been supporting this stupid plan all game that, for the record, I'm not following. Here's why.

Suppose Jim is town and not a sorcerer.  Let's say he tells all three apprentices to assist different schools and everybody else is randomly distributed and supports the plan. Jim can gather no useful information from this. Let's say the scum chooses to assist a different school than the one Jim gave 'em. Jim can't say if it's because that player is scum and just wanted to assist the scum school or because the player just doesn't like the plan. Let's say he tells all three sorcerers to assist the same color. Suddenly Jim knows who all the sorcerers are. This isn't helping him catch scum. All he can find out is who is and isn't a sorcerer, which he has no reason to care about.

But let's say he's scum. Not only does the same assist pattern give more information, the information actually matters to him, too. For instance, let's do the same "all three sorcerers assist different people" scenario as above, but this time with Jim as scum. If he tells two other people to assist red and red gets two assists, he knows that neither of those two players are sorcerers. He knows that the town's sorcerers were in the green and blue assistance collumns, so he should only NK those people. Let's take that "all three sorcerers on one color" scenario. Now he knows who the town's sorcerers are! Oh no, that means he knows who to NK each night!

I think I say this later in the post, but I want to reiterate it. I'm not following Jim's plan. Jim's the one with all the information and he's scum. But even if somebody more trustworthy was in charge, I still wouldn't go along. There's no gains at all. None. But there's a real risk of the scum finding out all the sorcerers with a bit of bad luck. No upside, real risk. Very simple decision.

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Spoiler: @Everybody Else (click to show/hide)
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JanusTwoface

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #171 on: November 19, 2010, 02:27:07 am »

>>> Vote Count <<<

Day Ends: 19 Nov 2010 @ 5 pm EST

Notes
Apprentices: Send me your assists before the day ends.



Criptfeind (3) - Jim Groovester, Jokerman-EXE, KaminaSquirtle
Jim Groovester (2) - lemon10, Mr.Person
Mr.Person (2) - IronyOwl, Jetsquirrel
Toaster (1) - Nirur Torir
IronyOwl (0) -
Jetsquirrel (0) -
Jokerman-EXE (0) -
KaminaSquirtle (0) -
lemon10 (0) -
Nirur Torir (0) -

Not Voting: Criptfeind, Toaster



Let me know if I missed anything.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #172 on: November 19, 2010, 02:52:03 am »

How tedious of you to go over all of my posts. Very well.


Having gone through all of this, do you have anything else besides the same criticisms everybody's already leveled at me? Sure, you've got volume, and I do mean in size and loudness, but you don't really have anything new.

This was a giant waste of time. If you had been participating you could've brought all this up as it was happening. Fortunately everybody already did. But I guess you only read my posts to pick at them, instead of reading what I had to say.
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KaminaSquirtle

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #173 on: November 19, 2010, 07:42:51 am »

Quote
"That COULD BE MADE to look scummy"? What the fuck does that mean? Either a statement is scummy or it isn't. If a statement isn't scummy, only the scum would try to make it look scummy. Congratulations, you're an easy second on my scumlist.
...The point of that plan would be to get people talking.  Making up accusations with little base for evidence would get people talking.
It doesn't matter how stupid my argument would have been, what would have mattered would be people's reactions to it.
Good grief, it looks like you're even taking things out of context to make people look scummy.
OH WAIT THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE JUAST SAYING WAS SOOO SCUMMY.  Great job dunkass, you just made a hypocrite of yourself.
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Toaster

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #174 on: November 19, 2010, 09:20:22 am »

Lemon, I liked Joker's answer.  How about your answer to my question above?

It was mentioned a couple times, so let me explain why a no-lynch is a bad idea.

There are ten people.  Assuming a normal lynch pattern, (lynch-nk lynch-nk) we'd eventually hit MYLO if we didn't lynch all the scum earlier.  Now with a standard game, MYLO means nolynch to eliminate one possibility.

This is not a standard game.  It's a reasonable assumption that a town sorcerer will get a NK at some point.  That extra player gives them license to fire it off freely once- it will replace that no-lynch NK that MYLO usually brings, and it will be controlled by the town instead of the scum.

If anyone sees an error with my logic, please point it out.

Cript, I specifically want to hear from you.  If not a no lynch, who should we lynch?
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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Toaster

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #175 on: November 19, 2010, 09:21:30 am »

Quote
"That COULD BE MADE to look scummy"? What the fuck does that mean? Either a statement is scummy or it isn't. If a statement isn't scummy, only the scum would try to make it look scummy. Congratulations, you're an easy second on my scumlist.
...The point of that plan would be to get people talking.  Making up accusations with little base for evidence would get people talking.
It doesn't matter how stupid my argument would have been, what would have mattered would be people's reactions to it.

You think it's OK to make up total crap just to get people talking?
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

KaminaSquirtle

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #176 on: November 19, 2010, 09:26:47 am »

Quote
"That COULD BE MADE to look scummy"? What the fuck does that mean? Either a statement is scummy or it isn't. If a statement isn't scummy, only the scum would try to make it look scummy. Congratulations, you're an easy second on my scumlist.
...The point of that plan would be to get people talking.  Making up accusations with little base for evidence would get people talking.
It doesn't matter how stupid my argument would have been, what would have mattered would be people's reactions to it.

You think it's OK to make up total crap just to get people talking?
I think if there's nothing else to go on, and RVS isn't giving us anything, then there isn't much choice.  I can't think of another way to do it, would you care to share a better solution?
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Jetsquirrel

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #177 on: November 19, 2010, 09:50:09 am »

Quote
I meant to post yesterday, but then I started playing Crusader Kings. Next thing I know it's 4 in the morning and I'm tired as fuck.

I've never put a WoT in spoilers before. This is was just too long, even for me.

Unvote, vote Jim Groovester. That random vote on Jetsquirrel lasted way longer than it should of. Everything Jetsquirrel has done oozes townvibes. He's trying to scumhunt.

Jim, on the other hand, has not been scumhunting. He's been supporting this stupid plan all game that, for the record, I'm not following. Here's why.

Suppose Jim is town and not a sorcerer.  Let's say he tells all three apprentices to assist different schools and everybody else is randomly distributed and supports the plan. Jim can gather no useful information from this. Let's say the scum chooses to assist a different school than the one Jim gave 'em. Jim can't say if it's because that player is scum and just wanted to assist the scum school or because the player just doesn't like the plan. Let's say he tells all three sorcerers to assist the same color. Suddenly Jim knows who all the sorcerers are. This isn't helping him catch scum. All he can find out is who is and isn't a sorcerer, which he has no reason to care about.

But let's say he's scum. Not only does the same assist pattern give more information, the information actually matters to him, too. For instance, let's do the same "all three sorcerers assist different people" scenario as above, but this time with Jim as scum. If he tells two other people to assist red and red gets two assists, he knows that neither of those two players are sorcerers. He knows that the town's sorcerers were in the green and blue assistance collumns, so he should only NK those people. Let's take that "all three sorcerers on one color" scenario. Now he knows who the town's sorcerers are! Oh no, that means he knows who to NK each night!

I think I say this later in the post, but I want to reiterate it. I'm not following Jim's plan. Jim's the one with all the information and he's scum. But even if somebody more trustworthy was in charge, I still wouldn't go along. There's no gains at all. None. But there's a real risk of the scum finding out all the sorcerers with a bit of bad luck. No upside, real risk. Very simple decision.

A. You didnt answer my questions
B. What you say is true but after the second sorcerer NK we can also be pretty sure that Jim is scum as he only then would know who the town sorcs are.
C. Jims plans has a purpose, scum must watch out even more as they then can screw themselves up, but what about you? You lurk, post 1 post, lurk , lurk and pop up finally here to protest this idea without doing much and i probally guess you will start lurking more soon

Toaster

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #178 on: November 19, 2010, 10:27:54 am »

You think it's OK to make up total crap just to get people talking?
I think if there's nothing else to go on, and RVS isn't giving us anything, then there isn't much choice.  I can't think of another way to do it, would you care to share a better solution?

Personally, I just keep asking questions until something slips.  I've never been a fan of the "Solifuge Strategy;" acting scummy then going off reasoning of people who jump on you.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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Nirur Torir

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Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Day 1: Death by spoon]
« Reply #179 on: November 19, 2010, 10:29:51 am »

Jim, I provoked you and painted a target on myself with strange accusations. You merely flung ad hominems, rather then going after me in retribution as an easy target. For now, I'm willing to place enough trust in you to go along with your plan.

Unvote Jim.

What? You're saying you tried to get Jim to attack you and he didn't, so he's a townie? That makes no sense at all. If he was town, he'd be looking for scummy actions and trying to lynch you for them. If he was scum, he'd be trying to get the votes off of himself. He spent all his time defending himself and his scummy plan. How are Jim's actions those of a townie? You do realize that townies are trying to find scum and lynch them, right? Not defending a plan that has no chance fo catching scum or defending themselves with WIFOM?
I didn't say he was a townie. If he's scum, then my attack barely fazed him, plus I ran out of ammo. I don't feel like wasting time repeating the same stuff, when I could be finding out more about other people. If a sorcerer gets lynched tomorrow, and the other one NKed, then at least we've discovered one scum from his plan. If he's townie, maybe it will help. (Or more likely not, but I'd love to see him trying to defend it.)

Quote
So you got lynched because of WIFOM before, which was why you were attacking Jim for it, but you're still willing to "provoke" Jim and make "strange accusations?" Are you wary of things that get people lynched or not?
I find I prefer defense to offense, and people can be read from either position. If I can get people out of their shells and talking, but dirty myself doing it, fine. At least they're talking.

Quote
I also don't understand how responding with ad hominems rather than going after you is the opposite of scummy. If you were giving him an excuse, wouldn't it be scummy not to notice/care enough to go after you? It sounds like you're reverse-OMGUSing.
I didn't notice any attempts to pressure me to test for weakness and lynchability.

In other words, he didn't scumhunt. That's the very definition of scummy.
Uh, he has been scumhunting more then you, and I already answered this.

Quote
Quote
I also don't understand how responding with ad hominems rather than going after you is the opposite of scummy. If you were giving him an excuse, wouldn't it be scummy not to notice/care enough to go after you? It sounds like you're reverse-OMGUSing.
I didn't notice any attempts to pressure me to test for weakness and lynchability.
Doesn't that also mean he wasn't pressuring you to test for scumminess?
It's possible to read somebody without directly attacking them, if they're talking enough. I assumed that, should he be town, that's what Jim was doing.
So what would Jim have done if he was scum? Attack you for the scummy things you say you did? I'm not following your reasoning at all.
I don't know, but it would have given me more things to attack him with.


Toaster: Of everything that's going on, you feel that the most worthy of your vote is the new player who's lurking, and your second choice was another lurker?
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