So what will you do if Lemon doesn't screw up at all?
Nothing, since there's nothing to worry about.
This is an odd question. It would be like if I were to ask you what you were going to do about Toaster if he plays a good town game.
So then why did you say "When lemon screws up" rather than "If lemon screws up"?
If you're going to attack me and lemon, please be upfront about it rather than passive and deflect...ty.
If I were trying to attack you I would be upfront about it.
But I wasn't. I was explaining myself.
So then why did you bring me and lemon up at all? This is the same as me asking who took a cookie from the cookie jar and you go "it wasn't me, lemon did it!". You would of been just fine saying "I randomly voted him" or even "When I voted him, he only had one other vote". But you had to go on and turn your defense into a deflection-based offense. That's very scummy of you.
What about you? Thoughts and suspicions thus far?
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Here, lists are always good things to start discussions. I'll talk about everybody.
Criptfeind - Quiet. Defended against Nirur Torir's attack correctly. Hasn't followed up on RVS questions, maybe because he doesn't see the need. Leaning town. Also he thinks I'm a good player so he is awesome for it. (He's pretty good at this game, too.)
Buddying.
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Mr.Person - Argh Mr. Person's lurking annoys me even if it's pretty damn usual for him. I have a pretty difficult time reading him in general, but I haven't seen anything out of the usual for him. But this doesn't really mean anything; he's caught me off guard in the past. I always have to watch what he's doing pretty damn closely, but I don't have enough to make up my mind on him right now.
Blatant lying. I made a post 2 and a half hours before Jim's here. I had responded to all questions posed at me and even threw some right at Jim. I fail to see how I was lurking in any way. (Yes, I missed yesterday, but that hadn't happened yet)
Nirur Torir - He's going after people, but he's not really going after people for things I consider legitimately suspicious. I don't think he's doing it out of malice, I just think he's just a bit misguided. I'm leaning towards him being town. There is one thing, though, that's bugging me. He completely dropped his attack on Criptfeind after I told him what Criptfeind was doing was perfectly alright. I mean, come on, dude, stick to your guns. Or at least say something about it.
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So wait a minute, you tell him to stop attacking Criptfeind, yet when he does it, you go on and attack him for doing what you said for him to do? In what situation would you NOT be attacking Nirur Torir?
But hell, I am doing nothing else. Let play with the bees nest.
Jim you are budding me (and sorta lemon) and I want to know why.
I like your style, Criptfeind. You're going to have to do more than that to stir up the bees' nest, though.
But there's a difference between buddying you and poking holes in the person's argument who was attacking you. I was doing the latter.
But seriously, you got nothing else? Not even a vague sense of discomfort at what people have done? What about Jetsquirrel? What about Nirur Torir being quiet and utterly dropping his attack on you? What about Mr. Person also not really doing anything?
You're not trying to hide by lurking behind everybody else struggling to find scum tells, are you? I mean, that would be the absolute perfect excuse right now.
Somehow, you manage to buddy Criptfiend while voting for him. It takes a true master of buddying to pull that kind of feat off.
Oh, but then you manage to throw in some deflection as well. Good job! It CLEARLY wouldn't of been enough to just say "I'm not buddying you, I'm asking questions poised at people who happen to be attacking you". Hell, pointing out that it's hard to buddy someone while voting them would of been more than enough to squelch all buddying attacks. Instead, you try to kill the buddying claims by deflection and more buddying.
Everybody thinks it's about figuring out fakeclaims.
No, it's about getting people to send in their assists. That's the main point.
Because, tell me, have you two sent in your assists yet?
The results will probably not be all that helpful in figuring out who is scum or even figuring out who the town sorcerers are, but it doesn't hurt to have them. I just want people to actually do the shit that makes this game unique from all the others.
Now you're just flat out lying somewhere. If the main point was to get all the assists in, why did you spend so much time and energy for what you've later called "marginal gains" and "probably not... all that helpful"? And why weren't you spending that time and energy scumhunting? Hell, you were grilled in the first game for your plan, and shockingly, you got grilled this game (both of which were unfair, by the way, it's not scummy to suggest a plan if that's all you do). So you knew the risks when you walked in. You decided to spend loads of your time, not scumhunting, but figuring out who the town's power roles are with a chance of finding the scum. Now I don't know about you, but I'd think spending my time actually scumhunting would be the best use. Instead you spend it buddying and trying to find the sorcerers.
Come on man, at least try to hide the fact you're scum.
My beef with it is the large number of people who won't follow your instructions- with three sorcs and a scum apprentice, that's four right there. That's a 40% failure rate on your PMed suggestion, rendering any hope of gathering useful information worthless.
My thoughts exactly. Too great a failure rate.
That doesn't bother me that much.
Would both of you be willing to go along with it even if you don't believe it's going to work? At the very least, it won't hurt anything, right?
You're completely ignoring the fact that if you're scum, you've got a list of 2 to 3 players who aren't sorcerers.
I also love how your defense of the plan is that it's really bad, but it can't hurt if you're town. The problem is, you're not part of the town.
Everybody thinks it's about figuring out fakeclaims.
No, it's about getting people to send in their assists. That's the main point.
What's there to argue about, really? Just PM people reminders. If they happen to take your advice on who to assist, then there's some variety in assists.
So, are you telling me to just go and do it? Would you take whatever suggestion I gave you? If there's any chance of getting any useful information (dim hope, I know), then it's going to require everybody's willing participation.
And there's already going to be a variety of assists. It's going to be a (mostly) even division of support. 3-3-4. That's not what it's going to end up like tomorrow, of course, but that's as evenly as it can be divided right now.
"The odds are dim that it would work even if I WAS town, but if I can get everyone on board, I'll know who isn't a sorcerer!"
Wait a second, I don't believe you came up with this on your own. Surprisingly relevant criticism to a plan in a unique mafia variant? And it sounds so familiar to criticism I leveled in the last game.
Yeah, I don't buy this for a second.
Unvote Criptfeind. Who's feeding you answers, lemon10? Oh, and while we're at it, why don't you describe how I even could figure out who the town sorcerers were.
I'm not quite stupid enough not to be able to come with anything on my own or come up with anything relevant, yeah i don't know the nuances of how mafia is played (eg. i suck at scumhunting and thinking up hypotheticals), but it seems to me that i should be able to think up things on my own. And no one is feeding me answers.
And i hadn't quite thought through how you could find it out, although i think you could, but ill do that now.
You could tell 1 person to vote for a sorcerer, and everyone else to vote for the other two, if the sorc doesn't get the vote and he said he sent one, its pretty obvious he's a sorcerer, if the sorc does get the vote, then you know that he isn't a sorc
If you tell 3 people to support each sorcerer, and sorc 1 got 2 votes, sorc 2 got 2 votes and sorc 3 got 3 votes, you would know that (unless people voted for people other then they said they would) that 2 of the people in group 1 are sorcs and 1 in group 2, while none in group 3. If your mafia knowing who to kill would be a great help (i assume)
So while it might not let you know for sure, it would help you figure it out greatly. And it is a bit rude to say that you don't think i am unable to think up things myself.
And yeah, the only harm is IF you are scum, but i don't think it would be that much help if you aren't.
Hm.
Apologies for assuming you were unable to come up with that on you're own.
But what do you think I'm trying to do here? Do you think I'm trying to get everybody to go through with this plan just so I can get a grainy picture of what group the town sorcerers belong to? That's a lot of work I'm going through just to get that. I'd be better off not attracting attention like this and instead trying to sniff 'em out by looking at how people post. Or do you think that I'm trying to do this because I believe there might be a chance to get some useful information about who the scum are? The chance is certainly a remote one, but it's better than just assisting randomly and without a plan.
That's really the important question here. What do you think my motives are?
You're defending yourself with WIFOM. Could you be any scummier?
Hell, the WIFOM here applies if you're town, too. Why would you draw so much attention to yourself to get a picture of the scum? And that's even assuming the scum don't follow your plan and everyone else does.
Because if I were scum, it would be kind of silly for me to be really trying to convince people to go along with this; too much time, too much effort. I'm really determined, though, aren't I?
This game should be renamed Jim Groovester Gets Shit For Trying To Organize The Town II.
This is his defense when Nirur Torir asks him about the WIFOM. What would be a good way to explain WIFOM? Oh I know, THE EXACT SAME WIFOM SPAT OUT AGAIN AT NIRUR TORIR! BRILLIANT!
Jim, I'm getting nothing but scum vibes from you.
Lack of sleep is getting in my way; I'll clarify later. For now, going from memory:
1) Buddying myself and Lemon10. Teaching a new player how to play is fine, as is being nice, but it just looked like buddying over teaching or scum hunting to me.
2) You cast suspicions on me for my methods of questioning Criptfeind, but didn't directly attack. I assume you're fully capable of attacking multiple people.
3) You overall seem to be trying to act like a "good townie."
4) You've stated multiple times that the primary goal for your plan was to get people to assist, and ... whatever your other goal with it was unlikely to work, but worth it. You didn't properly address that, if you're scum, it benefits you far more then the possible town benefits if you're town. You didn't even accept them, as "you're town." The main goal wouldn't have taken any cooperation at all. You lied about the main goal.
5) WIFOM.
6-10) Lynch all liars.
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2) Yep, that's what I was doing. You had been quiet for a while and I wanted to see if you would come out and post if I made a bunch of snipes on you. Maybe you might've even addressed the points I was making.
So why didn't you attack?
...
4) There's no good way for me to address it, and I addressed it as best as I could. The reason, of course, why there's no good way to address it is because those are legitimate issues with the plan. But I wasn't lying about the main goal. You're superimposing motivations on me because of your suspicions. It would get everybody assisting, and then there would be some ancillary advantages as well. Maybe not much, but a little more than just making sure everybody assisted randomly.
If you suspect me because I was pushing the plan too hard, I did say I wasn't going to give it up easy, didn't I? I gave it my best, but it's clear now that it's not going to work. Might've been clear before, but I thought I might try and be persuasive.
So if you understand the issues the rest of us have, why do you still push for it? Would you accept the plan if somebody else was the one with all the information and you were left out to dry? Hell no, you have no reason to trust anybody else, so why? The benefits are nonexistant and the risks are extremely high. So why SHOULD we go along with the plan? Yes, this one isn't really scummy, but I still object to the plan for reasons other than the fact you're the one in charge.
5) Yes, it was WIFOM. WIFOM does not automatically mean whoever doing it is scum. You'll see townies frequently employing WIFOM when they're under suspicion, as a supplement to their normal defense of explaining their actions.
Really? REALLY? You're taking a pro-WIFOM position? Holy shit, it's like you're just giving up and going "yeah, I did scummy things, but scummy things are not actually that scummy!". No, WIFOM is scummy. Period. End of discussion. You knowingly defended yourself with WIFOM. That makes you scum.
It's one thing to use WIFOM. It's quite another to defend using it.
6-10) This is stupid. People who trudge this out just want an excuse to lynch people and sound authoritative about it. If I had been caught in a lie about my role, like I actioned somebody different then who I said I did, then yeah, Lynch All Liars, no problem.
Lynch all liars exists because there's no reason for townies to lie except about role information and actions, but that's irrelevant since that's not what Nirur Torir is talking about.
You probably could of defended yourself BY REFUTING THAT YOU LIED! Oh wait, you didn't do that until later. So when somebody claims you lied, your first instinct is to defend lying. Now not only are you taking a pro-WIFOM position, you're taking a pro-lying position. You're backed into a corner and know you're caught. At this point, you'll say anything to avoid getting lynched. Well, anything except scumhunt, of course, but hey, I'm not going to lie if you make my job easy!
4) There's no good way for me to address it, and I addressed it as best as I could. The reason, of course, why there's no good way to address it is because those are legitimate issues with the plan. But I wasn't lying about the main goal. You're superimposing motivations on me because of your suspicions. It would get everybody assisting, and then there would be some ancillary advantages as well. Maybe not much, but a little more than just making sure everybody assisted randomly.
If you suspect me because I was pushing the plan too hard, I did say I wasn't going to give it up easy, didn't I? I gave it my best, but it's clear now that it's not going to work. Might've been clear before, but I thought I might try and be persuasive.
No, sorry. I cannot mentally combine the following statements as all being true:
1) The primary goal of the plan, which could have been accomplished without any agreements, was to get everybody assisting.
2) Jim spent the better part of a day trying to get everybody to go along with it.
Since you admitted that the secondary goal had a slim chance of working, and would have required the compliance of all townies, I feel I can safely rule it out.
I see two remaining possible goals:
1) You're scum, trying to figure out the sorcerers. Distracting from scum hunting with your plan was a bonus.
2) You're actually town, but were reaction fishing. Since you haven't attacked anybody for their stances, this is unlikely.
If you can't mentally combine those two things then you're not thinking very hard. Because those are the things that happened. Come on, Nirur Torir, keep up. Besides, your list needs editing.
1) The primary goal of the plan, which could have been accomplished without any agreements, was to get everybody assisting. The secondary goal of the plan renders it a slight improvement over just getting everybody assisting.
2) Jim spent the better part of a day trying to get everybody to go along with it, because he thought it was a good idea, even against stiff opposition from a bunch of boring people.
This is not hard to get a grasp on. Because it is what happened.
As for your scenarios, the first one is stupid because it assumes I have a complete lack of foresight and memory, because you think I would've realized I would get flak for proposing a plan, since I got flak for the same thing in the first Sorcererer's Apprentice. (Hint: I knew this full-well going into it that I would get shit for it.) I mean, distracting the town from scum hunting? Seems like that backfired. Figuring out a grainy picture of where the town sorcerers are isn't worth that.
The second one is incorrect, because that's not what I was proposing the plan for. But even if I did do it for reaction testing, there's not much to go on. I see a bunch of indifference about it, some opposition, some support, but that's not terribly out of line. There are some interesting windfalls in the scumhunting department because of it, and I'll get to that in a minute.
So you admit the second scenario is not true. Ok. That means according to you the first scenario is true. Problem is, if the WIFOM in there explains why you wouldn't do it as scum, it would handily explain why you wouldn't do it as town, either. It makes you look scummy. It's time and effort you could of used scumhunting. The information learned, in addition to having a slim chance of actually working, wouldn't even be that useful if everything went perfect. So why are you pushing it so hard? How the fuck could your plan catch scum? I don't get it.
Wait a minute, the information I'm looking at is who's scum. Your plan would be very likely to say who isn't a sorcerer. Ah, now that information is valuable... to the scum. It's USELESS to the town (for now). So the only explainable reason I can come up with about why you'd throw away the rest of the town's scumhunting was to get a shot at learning who not to nightkill. Now that explains everything nicely. It's a ballsy move, but at least it isn't a retarded move like WIFOMing the town and defending lying would be if you were a townie.
5) Yes, it was WIFOM. WIFOM does not automatically mean whoever doing it is scum. You'll see townies frequently employing WIFOM when they're under suspicion, as a supplement to their normal defense of explaining their actions.
If so, then your defensive WIFOM failed completely, as it just makes so much more sense if you're scum.
This
This is stupid. You've never seen townies use WIFOM before? You need to play this game more.
No. Fuck you. Using WIFOM as a townie is inexcusable. End of discussion. You know what WIFOM does? It causes everyone else to lock themselves into a useless logic trap with no information to be learned. It's escapable, but it's a total waste of time. And of course, it's totally defensive. There's no way to attack someone with WIFOM. So if you can't use it to get information, you can't attack with it, and it's a total waste of time, why should townies use WIFOM?
Ok, i agree with this plan. this can do stuff but lets look further what will happen then? You will get a rough image of everything but not yet enough to do much expect go off the arguments people say.
It was never supposed to be a substitute for doing that scumhunting thing I hear everybody talking about. It's supplemental information. It's not going to reveal who the scum are.
So then why do you care about the information gathered if it's not who's scum?
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Topic: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II [Over: And it was KaminaSquirtle all along] (Read 89162 times)