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[Persus13]

Also the last Web BYOR had over 600 posts, about 450 were during the game, and over 100 were postgame revelations. This post is #570 and D1 isn't over yet.

[doll]

Flabort
I'll elaborate on this (a lot) when I get time in ~15 hours, but his comments on WIFOM support the subsequent claim that he is a scum redirector, and he's not tried to hunt in his dump since returning.

[Lenglon]

Persus - it is permanant until/unless actively changed.

[Lenglon]

Actions resolve as though we are the same person.

[Lenglon]

Flabort - in your first one of your two most recent walls of text you commented on two posts of mine about how you wished you had been more active and responded to them as they happened. What would you have said/done?

[4maskwolf]

Even without a full analysis of what all has gone on I have huge problems with flabort's so-called "reads list" that I'd like to talk about for a moment.

Allow me to list my problems in a shorthand form.  Very few scumreads with most of them being on strong players who, if not scum, could be a danger to the scumteam?  Check.  A lot of reads that give little more description than buzzwords like "content" and "activity"?  Check.  Agreeing with a person voting on you, a reasonably common scum strategy to try and buy some capital with said player?  Check.  Seemingly arbitrary town/scum values to some players in the middle range?  Check.

Now, a more specific conversation on that last point: I specifically dislike his reads on me, OSG, and Tea.  Let's start with Tea, who I feel was given a rather arbitrary neutral read.  He justifies this read with "nothing unusual enough to base a read on" but let's look at another player like that, I didn't do anything particularly unusual when I was active, and he gave me a "was town but now leaning neutral/third-party" (I'll get to that in a minute).  In addition, everything he said about Tea would indicate a small town read, from "gut feeling to trust her" to "active, lots of content" and yet he hesitates to give her the town read that his description of her actions would warrant without giving any points against her.  This feels very much like a scum trying not to place his scumbuddy too high on his reads list and if flabort is scum I'd say there's better than average odds that Tea is too.

Now, OSG's.  The player who has barely posted this game even by my standards.  The guy who is asking to be replaced.  And yet for some reason flabort decides "oh yeah, OSG is pulling some kind of active-lurking gambit" and then places as neutral despite this accusation.  I have very, very rarely seen anyone lie about their rationale for not being in a game when they explain real life circumstances: in fact, I've never seen it.  The most recent time I saw a scum actively try to avoid attention by disappearing off the face of the planet was TBF in Paranormal 25 and he never gave an explanation for that behavior.  Deciding that this is an activelurking gambit of some kind is just silly and casts needless shade on what is currently an empty slot, and provides nothing to the game itself.

Now, mine.  I have no problem with people calling me out on my inactivity, especially when it's well-deserved (sorry again...).  What I do have a problem with is arbitrary changes to people's reads based on inactivity that don't take into account what benefit the inactivity might have to that player as various roles.  In my case, there was literally no benefit in going inactive: I had a decent position built up and as town, scum, or third-party I would want to further that strength in order to further my goals in the rest of the game.  Going AFK provided no tangible benefit because there was no suspicion to avoid, no unfortunate events to allow to fade from memory, and no reason why I should hold back on my thoughts in a game where I could theoretically die at any moment.  Thus, like with most long periods of inactivity, it is NIA: make up your mind on what I am based on what I say and don't say, rather than a work-induced period of absence.

Also, flabort, do you actually have an explanation for why you called me "leaning third party" or is that just filler too like so much else of your reads?

[Lenglon]

...
unvote
welcome back.
I look forward to you finishing your review.

[4maskwolf]

...
unvote
welcome back.
I look forward to you finishing your review.

Don't expect too much from it, most of the stuff that I miss gets filed away in the back of my brain for later use unless I see something particularly egregious.  As a general rule if I can't respond the day of to something and it wasn't addressed to/about me I won't bring it up even if I notice something about it, especially on Day one, because it's a lot of effort for something that's likely almost lost to the memory of the poster and questioning it just muddies the waters.  They're also less effective things to read me off of since I have a long time to think about my responses and could thus, assuming I'm scum, find a townie response to anything I pleased.

That being said, now that I'm back I'll be able to actually respond to things in the moment so hey, more content from me.  Joy.

[Lenglon]

4mask - okay, well, doll compiled a readslist several posts back with the intention of using it to decide upon her two nightkills for N1. the bottom three on that list (including 3 because D1 lynch) were FoU, flabort, and TDS.

are there any people you would swap out on that list of three D1 kills?

[Tiruin]

PFP

Tiruin/Pozzai:

Also, if 3-man scumteam (why do you assume this? What factors are involved?) how many 3Ps if any would you think exists ?

Webadict's BYOR have had a variety of scum opponents and assuming its a vanilla game might be a bad idea considering the past two BYORs. BYOR 14 had 16 players and two scumteams of three players each and a mafia ally, and was the one where Shakerag constantly committed suicide. BYOR13 had 17 players, no mafia and 5 Sks and an Sk-ally, and was the one Shakerag won, despite being the D1 lynch. Hopefully this mafia game will be a bit more tame, although the Shakerag shenanigan of the game has already begun, it seems. So a three man scum team is possible, personally i think its a little on the small side. We simply don't know at this point, and making assumptions is a bad idea. In BYOR 13, no one figured out that there were 5 SKs and no Mafia until webadict told them in dead chat, or by the end of the game.

Spoiler: Notable quotes (click to show/hide)

5 SKs? Seriosuly? Fucker.

The worst part of all of this is that Shakerag won.

Someething tells me that if there were two scumteams, OSG was on both of them.

I was hoping to fool a few townies with my lies in scumchat.  Never, not even in my wildest dreams, did I think I would fool anyone on OSG's scumteam!  I think this is a new record for the success of a lie.

SO I was the one responsible for Shakerag's continual suicides.

No, actually, I was the one responsible for Shakerag's continual suicides.

Oh right .-. forgot that BYOR is unconventional gameplay.
>_>
Well at least it makes me magnetizing a lot better I guess :V All malevolence to me! [So I can boop you on the nose back. HAH!]

TBF seems scummy because his posts are low on substance. He makes cases on people that only exist because he ignores things they say (see my vote on him). Sometimes it seems like he's just pushing a lynch to push a lynch and not to actually find scum.
[...]

To share a bit of my notes--TBF is glaringly neutral because he's displaying a total lack of towniness he had in that one game doll is grumpy at him about, and more on because there's a rather major lack of his activity and content this game thus far <_<
But I've learned not to see him scummy just because of that, as it's still a work in progress.
TBF: I'd like to ask you a few things; first is what do you think about people's insights or perspectives of you thus far. Second is what do you think of your own activity and content thus far. :O

ALso TDS: admit it. You were busy winning 15-rune wins for Bay12 in DCSS rather than playing here because you were totally busy in the tournament that coincidentally happened at the time this game is running. And more.

But seriously why the active-lurking @_@
Also can you teach me your secrets in DCSS
TDS/Flabort/4mask, and others who were inactive. I'd like to ask what you think about others in a way that you'll follow up on them later on {I'll give my own but still busy x.x}; rather than an ordinal list that would place people on a tangible position over others, who do you see as important to communicate with and;
who will you follow up on later, regardless of N1?

Even without a full analysis of what all has gone on I have huge problems with flabort's so-called "reads list" that I'd like to talk about for a moment.

Oooo info! :3
Now I'm somewhat divided between wondering if you're voting him because you're scum, or he's scum, or both of you are town. Because you can't both be mafia given what you both did.

Spoiler: Also the first line of his post was rather...all in one. (click to show/hide)

From top to bottom, lazy reads are lazy but they are in seperate post for ease of reading:
Me
Town. Dur. Tendency to be an observer (not the role), missed a couple days.
I only used my vote once, for pressure, but will be now.

TolyK
Though I have a hard time reading them, and their activity has been less than stellar in the latter half of the day, though my own activity has been even worse. Their content, on the other hand, has been superb - if you take a random sampling of their posts, you'll find plenty of rapid fire responses that were well thought out, and a few infodumps.
I'm leaning town on this one.

Persus13
Yes, they voted for me, but over a reason which they thought was legitimate and which I haven't done much to fix.
Despite leaving their vote on me, they are pursuing multiple leads, so I have to give them a mild-to-medium town lead on this one.

Hector13
WoT King. Hasn't been able to be very active, but activity < content, and he delivers that in... very concentrated clumps. Mild town lean.

Shakerag
Semi-confirmed town. Real alignment of course depends on confirming Lenglon, and with them being fused together it's nearly impossible to do that day 1 without killing them both and it would be nice to keep shakerag around for confirmed townie purposes. That said, I don't trust Lenglon, so.

4maskwolf
Often the first one to react. Was the first one to vote seriously. But... hasn't changed their vote since, or infact been heard from for a while. WAS a mild town read, now leaning neutral to third party.

Lenglon
Rather short, low-content posts. If you add together their high-quantity posts, it does come together for some content. I have a gut feeling that I shouldn't trust them, especially since for all intents and purposes by fusing with shakerag the sk-miller claim applies to them too, and they could be something pretending to be a miller now.

OSG
Only one post with content, the rest are blaming inactivity on siblings and then asking for a replacement. Given that from what I remember of OSG they never used this excuse before, so I was thinking it was some kind of gambit to garner attention but avoid being lynched. Null read now.

Tea
I have a gut feeling to trust them, but haven't seen anything which supports that. That said, they've been active enough, their reactions have been standard enough, they've posted lots of content, they seem to be fairly standard players since the start of the game. So, nothing I can really say has been unusual enough to base a read on.

Tiruin
From my experience, once you get to know her, reading her posts and reactions is more of a helpful scum hunting tool for reading other people than it is on reading her. Even if she herself doesn't see what I'm gleaning from her posts, which is caused by being friends with everyone, seeing the best in everyone, and very rarely reading someone as scum - but you can see who's suspicious by her interactions with them, and her tendency to keep conversations going. That said, she herself I haven't seen anything particularly town or anti-town.

TheBiggerFish
Up there in post count, low in content per post. Also, not great formatting, though I can read around that. Has kept a couple conversations going, but being limited to mobile has limited their ability to post and analyze. Null read.

FallacyOfUrist
I'm not seeing very much which I could consider a "tell" from them. I'm also not seeing much hunting, but they did post reads. Low-to-null opinion, I guess.

Pozzia
Well, there was some early aggression and adaptation to the meta, though not as much as Doll. That being said, holy wall of posts batman, Pozzia is the most prolific poster in this game. I remember Tiruin likes to say that the player who posts the most in a game is almost never scum, but that doesn't bean they can't be a third party, and it's not a law just a tendency. Between that and the debacle with the reads early in the day, I am leaning neutral or maybe mild scum on this person.

Jack AT
Veteran player, very used to making content filled posts that are town-oriented but overall hard to read. Very useful to read his posts, his reactions, and use them for scum hunting most of the time, but when you feel like he's not contributing as much as he usually does, it's possibly a sign of scum. Mild anti-town lean.

Doll
Although I have confused them with Pozzai earlier, they seem generally active. I SUPER do not trust their claim, especially the infinite actions part, or the purposeful WIFOM part. Who does WIFOM benefit? Nobody but scum. But Doll here has created much more WIFOM than anyone in the game. I very much suspect that they are an anti-town third party, or scum.

TheDarkStar
This is who I should have been pressuring with their posts/activity - or more accurately, their content. Pretty much the definition of active lurking. They've dropped pretty much conversation they've been in. Anti-town lean.

oh, to explain what poison means, its along the lines of condesention + lies / slippery phrasing, the kind of person who debates to win instead of debating to determine whats right. dirty tricks coming naturally, that sort of thing. It doesnt mean scum alignment, but it does mean I have to factcheck every single little thing they say and doublecheck context on responses and quotes. Even if they're confirmed to be on my own team!

dealing with that kind of person is exhausting. Im not saying he is like that, but I havent done the extreme backchecking needed to be comfortable saying he isnt, and he feels like he is. sooooooo, yeah, thats a thing.

I missed this.

I'm sorry that I exhaust you, and that my phrasing is slippery. It is not meant that way. I do agree, I debate to win, but I ALSO debate to determine what's right. Because I believe that what's right is what leads me to my victory, and what leads to my victory is right. This does mean, when I play as scum, that I lie, and use evidence out of context, to convince others that my vision of what is right is right, but I don't believe that I have done that this game.

But that one statement from me to you is about how you noted down the people who weren't that active in his post.
OSG was, actually, active (and you can see it in his post history Like, seriously.)
And, honestly and personally--active lurking is widely emphasized; OVER-emphasized, as I'd believe, as a SCUMtell, because context defines the 'tell', and in how many games I recall with people who have done such things, there is little correlation on the people doing it and them being scum. It is MOREso that the people doing it have a certain pattern to how they do it, and their relation to their day-play.
Rather than them being scum.

Next...I think you didn't do your research and moreso poked him just because of what was present in this thread. You have a nice bit of insight there too!

[...]What I do have a problem with is arbitrary changes to people's reads based on inactivity that don't take into account what benefit the inactivity might have to that player as various roles.  In my case, there was literally no benefit in going inactive: I had a decent position built up and as town, scum, or third-party I would want to further that strength in order to further my goals in the rest of the game[...]

...But it's personal in perspective.

So what stood out on your case on Flabort? How he made his comparisons? How does that make him scummy?

[Pozzai]

dealing with that kind of person is exhausting.

I guess it's lucky I'm dying tonight then, eh?
So I've looked over some of the more questionable ones and I guess these are my reads in order of most to least town:
doll
Shakerag (via Lenglon)
Lenglon
Pozzai
Persus13
4maskwolf
Tea
hector13
TolyK
Jack A T
Tiruin
origamascienceguy
TheBiggerFish
TheDarkStar
flabort
FallacyOfUrist
Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?

 I wouldn't miss any of the bot 3(or 5 for that matter), in terms of raw gut feeling when speaking their name and thinking about how they make me feel, Dark is probably the one I'd least like killed of the 5.

 I'll look into re-reading them tomorrow, kind of tried  to get a bit of space to this game to potentially get out of tunnels, and to not drown people in more 'spamming', and I will support an extension if people feel they need it.

 So in short, the 5 on bottom I'm okay'ish with dying, Tea could be swapped in and I need to re-read Tolyk of the neutrals to determine whether they fit in better than the others. So yeah, bottom 5+Tea+Tolyk is okay for me, till I re-read.

 Also, never kill both Tea and FoU together, I feel like Tea and FaU is never mafia together, so if FaU flips mafia, and Tea is shot at the same time it removes a non-mafia, and if FoU flips town/3P I'd love to see Tea's re-analysis of the state of the game as I feel that could turn out really helpful at least for me to re-consider her if I'm wrong.

[Jack A T]

Webadict: Let's say a tracker follows the mafioso who carries out the kill.  If the mafioso is also targeting someone else with their own powers, the tracker would see both targets, yes?

Jack
Are you particularly attached to your role?

doll: More than usual for a BYOR: I sent something specific in and got a role that exceeded my expectations.

- You're voting Tea because she is questioning the effectiveness of how you're trying to get information? Or did I miss something?

TolyK: You missed something, though it's pretty clear I was unclear in the main voting post itself.  That said, vote's being dropped in this post.

@Jack I'm starting to ISO/LurkerTrack Persus now, can you go into more detail about your read on them?

Pozzai: One of the less memorable players this game, but he often is.  At the time of my read post, he had four posts.  This one stood out.  There, he's clearly engaged in the game, and questioning widely (and about serious topics, not just RVS junk).  Has actual suspects, too.  Generally a good sign: the appearance of caring about how people behave in-thread and wanting to gain information.  He's kept that up in his return, at a glance, and his frustration with reading the less-active players feels real.
That said, I'm cautious about my read.  Persus has long been one of the players I have the most trouble reading.

Tea: Unvote.  My growing unease about the vote was justified.  The oddly-aimed questions were less the efforts of scum trying to look good than those of someone very frustrated and trying to handle it.  Frustration that I misread as a much weaker and more common form of unease/discomfort routinely seen under pressure, as opposed to what was actually going on (which became far clearer with the Pozzai interaction).

I wooooooould like to know while I have your attention more about your opinion of Fallacy. You mentioned that his TolyK push is the main thing he's done - what's your assessment of that push?

Short and without much commitment.  His responses to my questions when I accepted TolyK's deal exemplify this.  "Potential threat."  "Potentially questionable."  This is pretty much the tone of his read on TolyK as well: a shrug of semi-suspicion from a player who never really left RVS.

Speaking of his reads...

Fallacy's reads come off as manufactured, existing for the sake of letting Fallacy post reads.  Why do I say this?  They come off as reflecting neither analysis nor, outside of the TolyK shrug, a personal view of other players gained from observation.  Everything but the TolyK shrug could have been written by anyone, and the list is largely just a quick stratification of players by loose content levels, hastily determined.  Nothing shows a distinct FoU way of looking at this game.  It is as if there were few to no thoughts on non-TolyK players, so they were thrown on a loose activity/content list.
That said, it's clear that part of the issue was that Fallacy is busy, which gets in the way.

Hmmm... no, I won't comment on the sitting votes. But I'll do the next best thing in my next post, and go over each person's voting history during my reads.

flabort: Alright, that's not quite what I wanted, but it could theoretically lead to similar engagement with the major issues of the time, so...

[mentions the votes of three players, including himself, then completely stops.]

...I guess I look forward to you doing it.  Look.  I asked you for comments on the current votes to force you, the distant observer, to engage with a wide set of immediate issues.  You refused for some reason (please explain).  Alright.  You promised an alternative, something you would do immediately instead of the sitting vote comments.  Alright.  You then proceeded to not even do that.  More precisely, you put a token effort in for a little bit, then stopped even trying to look like you were answering me.  Why?

But alright, I could sort of accept this if your return effort otherwise impressed.  Instead...no questions, a vote where the most specific point is that a player who has been busy for three days has dropped their conversations (compare this to the rest of the immediate wave against TDS, which focuses on his non-pursuit of cases/lack of questions and his lack of detail), that OSG read, and an intense interest in third parties (third on doll, third-leaning on 4mask, Pozzai could be a third party, Lenglon is odd and could be a vague something...).
flabort, tell me: what are you searching for?
TheDarkStar: Can you explain what exactly changed your read on Pozzai from unreadable to non-evil third party?  Also, you were concerned about Persus13's interactions with flabort in the old post.  What led to not strongly disagreeing with doll's town read of him?
Hope to have more later (look more widely, more carefully), but not tonight.  Not tonight.

[flabort]

...whoops. Looks like I failed to properly explain my thoughts.

Responses in the morning, but I have to tell you 4maskwolf that you completely misread my read on OSG. I thought they were doing an active lurking thing, up until their claim, so I WAS reading them as scum until I realized that they were legitimately unable to post, so I null-read them.

[doll]

Spoiler: Unrelated to the game (click to show/hide)

4mask - okay, well, doll compiled a readslist several posts back with the intention of using it to decide upon her two nightkills for N1.

doll - He/Him

Y'all love your baseless assumptions, eh? Neither of these assertions have any basis in what I've said, other than the much earlier part where I said I'd kill FoU (that's still true).

So.
Flabort

I figured out what was bugging me - where that gut feeling scumread was coming from on an otherwise strong RVS player.

Spoiler: Can you see it? (click to show/hide)

flabort
Helps when you post, nano.
I'm killing multiple people tonight.
You can't stop me.
Why shouldn't I kill you?

Plenty of WIFOM here. Time to throw some more out.
1) You can't, at least not permanently
2) I will be posting lots when I'm awake
3) I'm actually a pretty decent scum-hunter, if a bit rusty at it right now
4) How do you know you won't be voted off before tonight? You were pretty clearly role fishing on TDS, Shakerag, Fallacy, and even 4maskwolf. Rolefishing is a bad way of scum hunting, and more often a scum tactic than town.

For now though:
1) I'm dying tonight
2) I'm unblockable
3) My role is very strong
4) I suspect that there may exist daygame powers which can snipe me before I get to night 1
5) That includes voting control powers
6) Therefore, anyone who votes me today is madcrazy suspicious if I don't get all my fireworks off
7) Therefore, don't vote me if you are town
I'm probably going to get daykilled or something anyway
9) Jokes on you scum, you I actually need to make it to Day 2 and couldn't think of a good way to dodge the scumkill
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu

This... there's two options I see. Either you are a Jester asking to be lynched, or novice scum. #6 and #7 are suuuper suspicious.
FoS, Doll

See, Flabort was certain, right from the start, that I was WIFOMing. His assumption was that I was not legitimately claiming, and even in considering that I was he appears to have assumed the implicit in the fullclaim was WIFOM as to whether or not the fullclaim was legitimate. In other words, Flabort placed a very high value on determining, for himself (i.e. intellectually) whether or not my claim was legitimate.
See, this all but revealed his role; clearly he either had some interest in blocking me preemptively (trying to leave room to weasel in my lynch on D1) or getting enough of an idea of my powers as to know how to target something which could block me. It was like a gust of wind blowing away the cobwebs of doubt when he claimed that he was a redirector: I don't know why he claimed or if it was legitimate, but I do know that he claimed because he is scum and he does want to know my role on Day 1.
This is important, see, because nobody else does (in the town, anyway). Why is this? Because the town knows what it's going to do with me; nothing until D2. I'm beyond saving, largely unstoppable, and self-resolving. If I'm running counter to town interests it'll be obvious by D2, and that's a thousand times better than any ambiguous lynch. Town have no interest in me on this day. That is the whole point of my fullclaiming. After all, I know that I would never be lynched Day 1 if I didn't want to be (pretentious, perhaps, but an authentic rendition of my experience of the truth) and I knew that my hunting would be hugely tilted and unbalancing because of my pure focus on D1 (a good example of this is my read on 4maskwolf, which I'll address later). So, claiming gets town night actions off of me and lets me apply pressure in my hunt to multiple people at once. It also lets me tell everyone about those all important unblockable & extra night action powers and my various post-death abilities, which town need to know about to plan effectively.
Now, why didn't flabort get this?

Well, see, from a scum perspective, my claim is not so clear cut. See, scum need to know what they can do to stop my kills, they see a strong town power role (something which is always easy to lynch - because I have more information than the rest of the town (re: my suite of powers)), they see a player who they have to respond to because they can threaten and carry out multiple kills.
Now, with my claim, it would be obvious if I was redirected. Only scum would want to redirect me, given that it wastes at least one town-owned kill without redeeming itself by preventing my death, as well as totally shutting down most or all of my undeath-powers. At this point, it is obvious that there are a lot of role-inspections floating around. Flabort, as a redirector, had a problem. I would suspect this is why he claimed. However, as he may be keen to point out, this actually is WIFOM. I don't care though, because the point is I believe his claim; I mention role-inspectors only because it gives me a reason to suspect that flabort himself may be the redirector as opposed to a random other member of the scum team.

Now, why would a scum redirector like flabort consider my claim to be WIFOM? Because it induces WIFOM - in scum redirectors. Town redirectors, of course, would just not target me at night. Even the threat of redirecting me (preventing my kill) is decidedly ... anti-town. So why is there all this wine in the air, according to flabort? Because for flabort, it does matter whether or not my claim is true. No other player (that is, no player who is town) actually cares, because at worst I'm giving them a free out to lynch me - Day 2. Since I'm unblockable and truly unavoidably dying, they don't even have to worry about whether or not to night-action me. Only scum need to think about that. Scum like flabort.

Perhaps an elegant way of summing up:

Who does WIFOM benefit? Nobody but scum. But Doll here has created much more WIFOM than anyone in the game.

Reads
doll:

1) Either I've fucked up Day 1 for no reason at all and am the most obvious lynch possible on Day 2, or I'm not going to be here come Day 2
2) Therefore, vote me if I am alive D2+ and don't vote me otherwise

Plenty of WIFOM here. Time to throw some more out.

That's where my gut feeling comes from.
If you can follow why I feel that way (flabort is scum) then sure, follow along.
Otherwise, I'll attempt to construct an entirely unrelated lynch on flabort. After all, I just want to see him hang. It's important that he hangs specifically (as opposed to FoU) because his not hanging threatens my ability to kill FoU; I think that they are both scum, and I'll do my best to convince you of that so that you lynch flabort this Day 1.

[doll]

Now Tiruin doesn't seem to get it, but active-lurking is the only scumtell.
That is to say, we're not using the term active-lurking correctly at all because I started using it 'wrong' in an earlier game and now it's stuck.
What I mean is, scum don't go looking for town.
Now, it's commonly thought that scum don't go looking for scum either, but that's untrue. Scum have just as much reason to find scum as we do, if not more. Scum want to know where the serial killers are and lynch them. Scum want to identify other scum teams and lynch them. Scum want to locate weak town players and lynch them. Scum don't care; they want to lynch scummy players like the rest of us because just because they are scum does not necessarily mean they are the people we will identify as scummy.

Anyone who read the recent BM up until everyone replaced out and it effectively died is going to be familiar with what is coming next:
Here are all of Flabort's posts in this game:

Spoiler: Wow look at all that post-RVS content (there is none, you can stop looking) (click to show/hide)

Good wonderful morning you bastards Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.

flabort: How would you react if you learned that I was lying about my theme?

Good question. I would have to find out the motive behind this lie, so I would probably put a pressure vote on you and grill you with a ton of questions, half of which were seemingly unrelated to the lie in question. This is assuming I find out pre-humously.

Flabort: On N1 you get a mason chat with someone at random. Which player would you want it to be with most or least, and which role would you want it to be with most or least?

For most, my choice is Shakerag with a Night-kill. Alternatively, Jack A T with an inspection.
For least, that's harder to answer. I'm thinking, though, that it would be OSG with a 1-shot protection. Or 1-shot anything, really.

flabort
Helps when you post, nano.
I'm killing multiple people tonight.
You can't stop me.
Why shouldn't I kill you?

Plenty of WIFOM here. Time to throw some more out.
1) You can't, at least not permanently
2) I will be posting lots when I'm awake
3) I'm actually a pretty decent scum-hunter, if a bit rusty at it right now
4) How do you know you won't be voted off before tonight? You were pretty clearly role fishing on TDS, Shakerag, Fallacy, and even 4maskwolf. Rolefishing is a bad way of scum hunting, and more often a scum tactic than town.

For now though:
1) I'm dying tonight
2) I'm unblockable
3) My role is very strong
4) I suspect that there may exist daygame powers which can snipe me before I get to night 1
5) That includes voting control powers
6) Therefore, anyone who votes me today is madcrazy suspicious if I don't get all my fireworks off
7) Therefore, don't vote me if you are town
I'm probably going to get daykilled or something anyway
9) Jokes on you scum, you I actually need to make it to Day 2 and couldn't think of a good way to dodge the scumkill
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu

This... there's two options I see. Either you are a Jester asking to be lynched, or novice scum. #6 and #7 are suuuper suspicious.
FoS, Doll

Shakerag
Which mafia game in this forum was your favorite to play? What did you learn from it that you can apply to this game?

TheDarkStar
What is the strangest but surprisingly effective scumhunting tactic you've ever seen?


Tiruin
Each time Doll makes a post, how do you physically react? Does anyone else give you a similar feeling? Does anyone give you a worse feeling?

OragamiScience
How much of Mafia is emotional, how much is critical thinking, and how much is BS?

TolyK
Let's say it was saturday and you had a majority voting on you. You have two potential suspects for the actual scum team, and you can make a good case on one but town has made it's case against you based on your earlier unfounded suspicions on that person; the case that you can make against your other suspect is much weaker, but wouldn't look like a tunnel-vision case. What do you do?

Hector13
If you were town and I wrongfully voted for you over a vote you made, what would your reaction be?

Fallacy
What is your favorite gambit (to use or in theory), and how would you counter it if you found it being used against you?

Persus13
Long time no interact. What do you feel you'll be bringing to the scum-hunting table this time around?

4maskwolf
What significance do you think the titles pre-game had? If what Jack AT and Doll said is true, it seems they have to do with themes and/or roles - do you believe this for a minute, and if so, do you think what they said about it is a form of role fishing?

TheBiggerFish
At what stage does RVS end for you? Do you ignore RVS like some and wait until later in the day to start scum hunting, or do you find RVS to yield useful data sometimes?

Tea
Explain in your own words the significance of a Finger of Suspicion.

Pozzai
I'm not going to be a jerk and random vote you for being new - what do you think about the people who would do this? Who do you think is capable of this, and why?

Flabort:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

Good wonderful morning you bastards Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.

Alright, skeletal hand ninja.

Fallacy
What is your favorite gambit (to use or in theory), and how would you counter it if you found it being used against you?

Never mind the fact that the only gambit I know the name of is the refuge in audacity.

There's a fairly interesting one I've been thinking of, where a townie claims survivor at LYLO and says they wish to side with scum, then tell the truth once the scum reveal themselves. But I think that would be in poor taste. Not really my favorite.

But can a single gambit really be a favorite? A gambit that might be good in one circumstance but not in another.

I get that this probably wasn't what you were looking for, but gambits aren't my best mafia subject. If you want a more solid answer, ask some question involving hypothetical roles.

Assuming you think those are worth asking, anyhow.
~~~
KYOSN mod double ninja!

Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!

Hmm. I'm not really a fan of rolefishing or encouraging others to rolefish - I could ask you some questions about hypothetical roles, though, if you really want. Also, yes, it's never too late for RVS questions; if RVS is over, you can still mix RVS questions into the game if you run out of other routes to pursue.

OK, here's the question.
What do you want to bet that Shakes is an SK-Miller Scum? There's nothing saying that a miller HAS to be town,  after all, just that they are TYPICALLY town behind their inaccurate investigation.

flabort & FoU:

Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!

Flabort:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

Good wonderful morning you bastards Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.

To rebutt those answers: You don't think there are enough leads already to start picking away at? Generally RVS is where you don't know anything, and ask around to get leads. It's not a necessary phase for all games; latecomers to the action might already have enough to work with that they can skip RVS.

For example, I basically skipped RVS to ask Jack that question and pick at what others have said in response to RVS questions.

There's basically three leads. Doll's crazy claim, Shakerag's miller claim, and Jack's theme claim. None of these were resulting from RVS questions, and all three are hard to confirm or deny - and further questioning about these claims won't be helpful, as like I said its very hard to confirm or deny anything these three say about their claims. It's just an unhelpful pile of WIFOM.

Now, there is the idea that observing other people's reactions to the claims, and specifically looking for any role fishing or scum tells in their reactions will be helpful, but that is merely observation; to do anything actually useful, you need to ask questions, and that is why I started with RVS questions, rather than skipping straight to analysis.

Tea
Explain in your own words the significance of a Finger of Suspicion.

It means someone decided to use an archaic buzzword term to describe someone they suspect but aren't voting. The significance of that is pretty contextual. Why do you ask?

Because I haven't played with you before that I can recall, and I'm trying to get a grip on what you are like as a player, and subsequently use that information to later get a read on you. Very interesting that you describe it as archaic - it tells me that as a newer player, you have a sense of superiority - no, that's not quite the right word for it, is it entitlement? No, maybe something like naivety. That's the one. I do suggest you don't disregard other old and time tested phrases we use on this forum.

flabort: Look, fuck if I know what the mod was doing.  It was funny, it didn't happen during the game itself, that's all I really care about in this case.  Why are you so interested in the subject?

Because it has some relevance to 2 out of 3 claims that have gone on so far. And like I was saying to TolyK, those are pretty much the only thing so far to base reactions on.

PPE:

Geez, I'm missing a lot of things, aren't I.

Nothing yet.  I don't really know what to ask.

TheBiggerFish So come up with something. This is just a pressure vote, but I do encourage you to actually join the game.

Yes, I'm trying to do that.

flabort: Do you think pressure votes actually help?

Absolutely. Why don't you try harder, maybe ask more people questions?

You may not have played with me but you have modded me.

Ah. I thought the name was somewhat familiar, but like I said I couldn't recall playing with you. If I modded a game you were in that makes total sense.

To rephrase, I think of FoSing as archaic because it's a term I personally stopped using seven years ago in favor of just...not using a buzzword to describe my thoughts instead, but the significance of it is obviously both site meta dependent and in-thread context dependent.

A problem I'm having with this RVS is that I have no idea how asking a bunch of individuals hypothetical what-would-you-do-if-you-had-this-exact-role questions as well as a lot of the theory questions I've seen are productive. Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game. The emphasis on asking specific formulaic questions to specific people en masse was something I struggled to get reads from in my only past game here that I didn't replace into. So yeah, I do have a bad attitude about bay12's early day1 meta which is probably coming off as snotty, or "naive" as you call it.

Well, I guess each site does have it's own Day 1 meta - one site I played on was all random votes, no discussion, and then counter-votes with no reasons, until a big wagon formed and then everyone jumped on the wagon, still no discussion. So when I first encountered Bay12's meta of RQS instead of RVS, I was completely lost.

We do come off as a bit uppity sometimes - and our meta is set in it's ways now, so not being able to match it IS naive; perhaps, more "naive" as in "oh, this is my first time in highfalutin noble society, let me just blow my nose on these curtains" than "naive" as in "these are mean streets kid, and if you don't wisen up someones going to shoot you dead". But then, that formulaic, set-in-our-ways day 1 meta does help us get better collective reads.

What do you think of that term, Collective Reads (which I just made up based on our standard set of terms )?

I wouldn't have minded. I do think it's an acceptable way of scoping out players new to a site, to get some pressure on them and see how they react, if they potentially is the crumbly sort of cracker.

 I think there's a huge difference in doing this to people who are new, and people who are new to a site, and personally wouldn't do it to completely new players because it's a bit douchebaggerish, and while I can be intense and blunt while playing, I still do put fun > winning.

 So who would be capable to do it to a new on site player, more or less everyone, and I have no feelings towards them, hard or otherwise, the few who would not are probably the people most interested in giving newsite players the most positive experience possible.

 Who that'd be specifically in this game, Idk \o/

 Gonna shower and catch up on rest of thread afterwards !

Well. This throws me off a little, but now I have a better feel of what to expect from you. Thanks for this. I can't tell, have you played on this site before? You almost sound like... you've been reading the thread about making games more newbie friendly, haven't you? Well, I don't expect veteran level play, but I do expect high-level play - your comments about not being new to mafia support this expectation.

flabort

Shakerag
Which mafia game in this forum was your favorite to play? What did you learn from it that you can apply to this game?

Hmm.  Hard for me to remember a lot of the games I was in.  Bastard Paranormal 2 was a favorite.  Paranormal 20 was another awesome game. 

What did I learn from those games?  Don't lose?  Inspections are awesome?

Soooo... nothing that will help with scum hunting or RQS. "Power roles rock", basically. Well, I guess I'll be keeping a cautious eye on you.

flabort

Good to see you back, I enjoyed the time I played one game with you, and I think I learned a bit from it too.

Anyway,

Hector13
If you were town and I wrongfully voted for you over a vote you made, what would your reaction be?

This is an odd question. My answer will, of course, depend on my interpretation of the word "wrongfully".

If you were "wrongful" in voting for me, in the sense that your vote was not well-founded, I would have to point that out, and consider why you were voting in that circumstance. Chainsaw defense? Buddying my target? I'd press you on it, see if I could divine the motivation behind it.

Any vote would be "wrongful" on me if I knew I was town, but I imagine my response would be the same if I was scum anyway. I like to think I have a strong enough day game that I can construct a case that people will follow, so I'd press you on your vote, divine the reasons for it, and then try to deflect onto who I thought was scum, presumably the person I'm voting in this scenario.

What do you think I'm finding odd about this question?

You find the ambiguity, the "if you were town" part, and the part where in that hypothetical scenario I set myself up as the scum all to be odd. Was I right?

I'm almost certain you and I played more than one game together, by the way. Glad you think you've learned from our game(s) together, I always strive to learn more and to share my knowledge.

I like your answer by the way. Very astute.

Flabort:

 The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.

Ahahahah. This is where the game gets REALLY started. Afraid to say that is my personal typical first-half-of-day-1 play, playing the part of the detached judge while the lawyers bicker it out. Once I start seeing results from my and other RQS questions, I start getting into the deep and gritty parts of it, arguing it out over the littlest details like Pheonix Wright fighting for a shred of evidence.

I also see that you think Doll was TOO into it. Is there an optimal level of activity, in your opinion?

I find it amusing that, if doll is telling the truth, infinite actions are possible with just 1 role this time. Usually it requires 3, or mayyyyybe two, roles to work together...

Ah, but is this repeatable, or is it like a supernova like they are claiming and using it blows up in their face?
Down this path, madness lies, with speculation and WIFOM. I too find it amusing, but for different undisclosed reasons.

Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to?  What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for?  I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.

 More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.

 Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.

 I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.

 The sites I have played on have been very different as well.

 DLP/Fantasystrike focuses heavily on rulesets where claiming is generally out of necessity, not as something you do early, because  there's severe punishment to claims through scum actions.

 Personalitycafe meta is fairly fluffy, but still with a focus on getting reads through interactions, as opposed to claiming stuff and make in general one-way questions. Personalitycafe is fairly weak in terms of mechanical analysis, while DLP/FS is the opposite.

Hmm. In later days, I think we get to be more like both those sites - after a few flips, we discuss reads more than we discuss most other things, but claims have a lot more weight to them than the circular discussions that are going on right now.

I first played mafia on the Giant in the Playground forums, which had basically no mechanical analysis, no reads analysis, and claims were ignored half the time. The RNG was god, bandwagons for the sake of bandwagoning was common, and speculation was taken as fact. That was a long time ago for me, though.

FoU:

Skrag:
1. How relevant are peacocks to your role?
2. Do you think such a vague question deserves to be called role fishing? Is it scummy? If so, are you going to pressure me about it?
3. On a scale of 1(least) to 11(most), how important to the game do you think themes are.
4. You are given a post restriction that requires you say "nyah" at the end of each of your sentences. You also learn that it'll disappear at the end of the next night, but anybody who hits you with an action will be given the exact same auto ability. Do you make any attempts to persuade people to act on you or not act on you?
5. Are you a serial killer? Answer clearly, please, for the sake of a hypothetical truth teller.
6. What do you think the probability of there being a truth teller in this game is?
7. Why do you think I asked each of these questions?
8. Finally, are there any of these questions you didn't answer, and why?

I thought there was something annoying that I missed. 
1 - Not relevant.
2 - No.  No.  No.
3 - 2.
4 - tl;dr
5 - No.
6 - 3%
7 - Because you're shitposting.
8 - 4, tl;dr.

I'll be possibly back tonight for some drunken shitposting of my own.

Ah yes this is typical of Shakerag. He's town guys, no worries. I definitely think you should read #4, it's funny as shit, but yes he is clearly shitposting. Fallacy why are you shit posting.?

Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...

But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.

EBWOP
You know, I can't tell who's being the lazier one. TheBiggerFish or Pozzai. If I had two votes they would both be used for pressure votes now.

Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...

But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.

Will everybody please stop pre-melting my shit? Please?

Fuck it that auto-correct is much funnier than what I meant.

This is mafia you two, you're not allowed to be funny

Oh shush. We can be funny if we want, so long as it doesn't interfere with the game.

Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...

But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.

 Stuff has been done, stuff has been set in motion, did you notice how what you just commented on earlier actually dragged you out of your hole to play the game and talk about analysis ?

 Asking boring one dimensional questions does very little as you can usually somewhat infer what type of answer people want, questions only gets interesting when people have already taken a stance already, and you pressure them to defend it. Prior to me stating a bunch of reads/feels for the game, very few had taken stances.

Well, I guess that's difficult to argue with.
Were my questions completely one dimensional, though?
I do have to concede that you are less lazy and suspicious than TBF.

Flabort:

 The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.

Ahahahah. This is where the game gets REALLY started. Afraid to say that is my personal typical first-half-of-day-1 play, playing the part of the detached judge while the lawyers bicker it out. Once I start seeing results from my and other RQS questions, I start getting into the deep and gritty parts of it, arguing it out over the littlest details like Pheonix Wright fighting for a shred of evidence.

I also see that you think Doll was TOO into it. Is there an optimal level of activity, in your opinion?

 *grmbl* the observer people are the hardest to read >_>

 I don't have an issue with their activity, I have an issue with how they attempt to deflect all discussion away from their slot by making a claim that we essentially can't use for anything at this point.

 If they're town, surely waiting with the claim till a later point when there's been more activity revolving themselves would give a greater scope of the game as a whole.

 If scum of some kind, it could point towards it being important for them to reach n1, or that they due to being an obvious fakeclaim later are lynched and win as a jester type of role.

 The demand and blind expectations of people to provide them with stuff while being all "don't talk about me" is fairly anti-town behaviour, as they've robbed us of any interaction analysis with them later if they are indeed town.

 Overall I therefore consider there to be more scum motivation behind their behaviour than town.

Not quite what I asked you. I asked is there an optimal level of activity... though, I guess I more meant "engagement". Not why you have a scum read on Doll.
But I guess, buried in there, is the answer I was looking for.

I don't have an issue with their activity, I have an issue with how they attempt to deflect all discussion away from their slot by making a claim that we essentially can't use for anything at this point.

So the more engaged and visible to you the better, right? With the caveat that specifically attention grabbing tactics are bad. I... have to agree with you on that one.

Ah yes this is typical of Shakerag. He's town guys, no worries. I definitely think you should read #4, it's funny as shit, but yes he is clearly shitposting. [1] Fallacy why are you shit posting?

[1]: Am I? Is that typical of the entirety or majority of my behavior? But if you want to know why I asked Shakerag those questions... I was probing for reactions. Like usual. Shakerag isn't giving me much to work with, though.

And I finally made it through the stuff addressed to me. Whew.

Well, it might help to give him something that isn't tailored to his BS.

Good morning once more, everyone. Looks like there are two pressing things that need my attention, I'll reply to these, then look over the thread for anything else I need to respond to later - brain is on auto-pilot right now, though, so what/ever.

Tiruin
Each time Doll makes a post, how do you physically react? Does anyone else give you a similar feeling? Does anyone give you a worse feeling?

Well my laptop is on a table, and I'm sitting on a chair with my back straight (dun wanna develop bad spinal posture now do we?), and whenever I see doll, my cognitive mechanisms recall a particular other person who was as particular and knowledgeable as him--my best friend called Vector. So physically, I inhale and exhale and nod, because I see 'doll', and I recall 'Vector' and other nice friends, and I feel relaxed and excited. Because in knowing Doll for quite a while, I have become familiar with them--their playstyle is a whole different story, but otherwise, he is just like Toaster and Jim Groovester to me; an ol' mentor-person that I look up to.

And that goes for literally everyone else that I become familiarized with, because out of game, we're all good buddies over time or at least over information. In-game, I physically scan my laptop screen and see everyone's posts as they are. I focus on the content, not feeling anything at all different from person to person. All my actions and nature towards others are moreso to this content, however my emotional reaction also biases me, like how I see Lenglon as a buddy-who-may-be-Town, but she was also Scum back in previous games. But in general I feel relaxed and excited.

WHY ARE YOU SCOPIN' OUT MY BUDDY, FLABORT?! WHY ONLY HIM!?
I MISSED YOU TOO!
In all seriousness: Why is your only question to me about Doll? Do you have a particular interest in him?
And did you leave me open to answer about anyone else? {Lenglon, Jack, you, Doll, and others I've grown close to or familiar and comfortable with are those I'm relaxed and excited with; the rest are the same too--newbies have a curious and excited reaction}

.........
OK....
My brain was not prepared for this yet. I mean, it's afternoon already but I slept in very, very late today. And I had forgotten that you are basically the goddess of making friends.
My only question to you is about doll because I couldn't think of anything else fitting at the time - my capacity for high-level questioning is low at the start of a game. Sure, you're absolutely free to answer about anyone else you want to.

Flabort:

Persus13
Long time no interact. What do you feel you'll be bringing to the scum-hunting table this time around?

My skills, which are a little out of practice, and my gut, which isn't the most reliable thing in the world. But with the power of teamwork, I should be able to bring down the mafia.
Why did you FOS doll in this post instead of voting him? I'm getting a weird standoffish feel from you, and that's probably why.

There's basically three leads. Doll's crazy claim, Shakerag's miller claim, and Jack's theme claim. None of these were resulting from RVS questions, and all three are hard to confirm or deny - and further questioning about these claims won't be helpful, as like I said its very hard to confirm or deny anything these three say about their claims. It's just an unhelpful pile of WIFOM.

If they're WIFOM, why do you call them leads? What do you mean by leads here? Because from where I'm sitting, none of those will lead to anything that's useful D1.

1) A) Because doll might be a jester B) Because I don't want to get too involved in the game lest my addiction take back over C) It was my first post of the game, I usually reserve my vote for later after I've had a chance for some back-and-forth.

2) I call them leads because it was the only moderately useful conversation topic that existed so far. Leads refers to anything that can spark conversation and lead to somebody voting over the topic of conversation. And they were unhelpful leads to me because I can't pull any useful evidence out of the WIFOM that they produce. However, they still produced some conversation which lead to other conversation producing more leads to follow, even if some of these leads are still tangled in WIFOM.

Unvote I feel TBF has fulfilled what I was pressuring him into.
Speaking of which, TBF, Here are Pozzai's reads, what little of them exist.

 Also, ISO me for the reads, they're there for your availability.

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ISO
I have no clue what you are trying to say here.

I want you to understand that, for all intents and purposes, you have 15 votes riding on you, and they won't move until you satisfy my criteria for town.

Just curious, where is this number coming from?