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[hector13]

I'll be attacking things as I see 'em, so if I'm ignoring the state of the game as it currently is (I don't know, I've read like half the first page so far) then that's why.

Jack AT

hector13: How would hector12 approach RVS, and why is that approach wrong?

Well I'll just assume this question is "what's RVS all about, what's a bad way to go about it" 'cause... I'm actually quite tired, and answering the question that way makes it a bit easier for me.

Obviously you want content in the game quickly, so asking things like "what's your favourite colour" and the like, while entertaining and perhaps gaining a bit of knowledge into the psychology of the questionee, not great at the content side through which you can divine someone's alignment.

Asking about theory and then following it up about it, asking about previous experience with other players in the game, maybe posing hypotheticals; these are, I think, good things to do in RVS. Also asking a question to someone when you answer one is a pretty good habit to have in RVS. What's your favourite colour?

Having a look at your RVS questions, you've got a mix of good ones and bad ones, and you're ostensibly touching base with all the other players. You did leave your TBF part blank which... may not net much with a player like Teebs.
Pozzai

... @Pozzai: Then your word choice was poor.  Why would 4mask be of any more help, anyway?

 Maybe, sometimes stuff gets lost in translation.

 If town!4mask, able to add a second pov on the only person in the game I have any knowledge of.

 If scum!4mask, might be informative if their arguments feels reachy or contrived.

Why would you need a second opinion on someone you know (and presumably have played with a few times before considering they were the one that brought you in) as opposed to everyone else you haven't?

Do you think it's wise to be telegraphing the things you find scummy so early?
Persus13

I don't like you.

Also, this game has hammers, so please be careful about bandwagons on people.

This is a part of why.

The rest of your post seems rather... wooden, like it's there just to be there.

Mostly I don't like you.

doll

hector13
Blah blah competent player don't want to clog this up with RVS is that a good idea kashira nano desu ne
Is what I'm doing a good idea at all, do you think?

I like this question. I really like this question. If I could make a question human and have s-

*cough*

I mean, sure, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You're a competent player too.

I might come back to this later. Then again, I might not.

Unless you want me to not engage in a tit-for-tat "who can be more ambiguous" thing... while entertaining, I s'pose I'll go with my gut and not do that.

Sure, I like what you're doing. You're being typically verbose though, which I'm not a fan of, and you're taking up a great deal of attention early doors, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The tone of your D1 posts has changed again though; uncertain if that's intentional or you're just having fun with what you have right now.

This isn't something I can really give an accurate thought on, given I need to see how you conclude it. Presently: so far, so good.
FoU

One of these days I'm going to submit The Role That Makes RVS Unnecessary to a BYOR. One day.

Fallacy of Urist: What's your favorite mafia game on Bay12 you've played? Why?

*reminisces*

Did I spell that right? Anyhow... Flabort's High Powered BYOR 2 is second. If I wasn't killed by somebody giving me a "you can't win" role and stopping me from acting on only Night 2... bah, humbug. As a result, Mafia Marathon is my favorite game. 23 mini-setups, almost a year to play. It was my favorite because it was fun, and it took a while to end, and it was well designed... seriously, Tomasque is a master at mafia design. I'm honored to be working with him on Odd Mafia.

Return question: Is there much benefit to that RVS question?

FallacyOfUrist
What's your role, FoU-chan?

10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu

What, expecting me to answer? How about this: I'll tell you what my role isn't. For Day 1: Seto Kaiba. That is, that's not my role.
Now, the question is, whether you're scum trying to get role information out of this, or town trying to see how I react to blatant role fishing.

Return question: Pick two of these five questions to answer.
1. Are you willing to provide a list of Japanese honorifics and what they mean to this forum?
2. Does your theme have anything to do with peacocks?
3. If you had a night kill that only works on cult leaders and survivors, would you use it in lieu of your normal actions?
4. If you had a self-revive that only works during the first two cycles, would you make an effort to direct the scum kill to yourself?
5. Rate each of these questions in terms of usefulness on a scale from 1 to 5 where 1 is the highest and 5 is the lowest.

FallacyOfUrist: What is the best way to place your vote in RVS?  Should multiple players vote for the same target in RVS?

On a player who made an answer you think is scummy. Yes, within reason. More pressure means more slipping up, but I wouldn't want somebody to be hammered or lynched based on RVS votes.

Return question: Do you think what I just said is true?
~~~
I think that's all the questions addressed to me. Did I miss any?

You have engaged in what I expect of reasonable RVS play. Kinda.

Anyway, you claim your day game needs work. What do you think makes a good day game, and who has displayed it so far? Who has not? What do you think this means regarding these players alignment? (alignments? I Kant England twoday)
TDS

2-4. Why are you rolefishing?

Jack A T: If you were completely kill/lynch immune, when would you claim it?
origamiscienceguy: If you were a serial killer and had a daykill, who would you kill today?
doll: In your opinion, what is the most important thing to look for in someone's posts to get a read on them?
Shakerag: If you knew that the theme you submitted had a clear impact on your role, would you claim the theme?
doll: Why claim that you're going to die tonight rather than keeping quiet about it to try to waste one of the scum's kills?

lol

Why do you bother if someone else is rolefishing if you're doing the same?
flabort

Good to see you back, I enjoyed the time I played one game with you, and I think I learned a bit from it too.

Anyway,

Hector13
If you were town and I wrongfully voted for you over a vote you made, what would your reaction be?

This is an odd question. My answer will, of course, depend on my interpretation of the word "wrongfully".

If you were "wrongful" in voting for me, in the sense that your vote was not well-founded, I would have to point that out, and consider why you were voting in that circumstance. Chainsaw defense? Buddying my target? I'd press you on it, see if I could divine the motivation behind it.

Any vote would be "wrongful" on me if I knew I was town, but I imagine my response would be the same if I was scum anyway. I like to think I have a strong enough day game that I can construct a case that people will follow, so I'd press you on your vote, divine the reasons for it, and then try to deflect onto who I thought was scum, presumably the person I'm voting in this scenario.

What do you think I'm finding odd about this question?

Christ there are still two more pages to read...


Oh, not much happening anyway. I was hoping there would've been more from doll, alas...

Yes, I'm trying to do that.

flabort: Do you think pressure votes actually help?

God-damn right they do.

Anyway, a significant issue I have with you, Teebs, is you say you have problems asking questions and then seem to expect other people to spoon feed you how to ask questions. You need to learn this on your own, develop your own playstyle, your own voice.

One thing I learned later than I probably should have is to form opinions very quickly, on very little, and be willing to give up on them. That last bit is still something I have trouble with.

I suspect the biggest issue you have with the game is the fear of being wrong. Here's the thing: it doesn't matter if you're wrong. You're not literally going to die if you make a mistake, the worst that'll happen is you'll lose the game. Oh well. Disappointing for a while, but then you can jump right back in and remedy it.

As for questions: If something piques your interest, consider why. Ask about it. If someone says it was a rubbish question, consider why. Ask about it. Your meta has thus far been of a player that doesn't really contribute, so you will likely experience some frustration and unpleasant words from people you have played with before. Don't let that stop you asking questions. The best way to learn what questions to ask, which leads to follow, comes with experience, and you haven't been willing to have that experience in the past. Just jump in and fire questions at everyone.
Probably should've spoilered that, and everything else, but ah well. You can all have a wall with my first post. Have at ye.

I'm sad there's less of it than I thought

[Pozzai]

Pozzai

... @Pozzai: Then your word choice was poor.  Why would 4mask be of any more help, anyway?

 Maybe, sometimes stuff gets lost in translation.

 If town!4mask, able to add a second pov on the only person in the game I have any knowledge of.

 If scum!4mask, might be informative if their arguments feels reachy or contrived.

Why would you need a second opinion on someone you know (and presumably have played with a few times before considering they were the one that brought you in) as opposed to everyone else you haven't?

Do you think it's wise to be telegraphing the things you find scummy so early?

 Just because you know someone, doesn't mean you're capable of reading them well, our internal reading of each other has been... Lackluster? At best.

 I personally think it's better than most stuff that has been going on in thread, I feel comfortable in adapting and reading through bullshit should they attempt to mimic the opposite.

 I also have never played on a forum that is so claim and WIFOM happy, and generally am used to progress the days by sharing reads and discussing them rather than doing whatever the heck is going on at this point.

 I have in my last 8 towngames had my top3 towns day1 be town at the end of the game, and in many/most of them my top5, I consider myself very comfortable picking out towns and backing them up no matter the amount of pressure they're under, and quite frankly in this game, I do feel like no other towns than myself exists, because I have very few townleans, and none of them I feel at all comfortable with, mainly because of the day1 currently being extremely alien to me.

[Pozzai]

*snip*

 I am NOT new, I am NEW TO THIS SITE >_>

[4maskwolf]

h...hector-senpai.  Why did you not notice me?

I have a question about the way you're prodding Persus, hector.  If Persus hadn't said that and instead it had been me saying "There's hammers in this game so don't be a fucking idiot with your vote" would you have interpreted it as wooden?  Is it the content or the way it was said?

[hector13]

You started it man, if you're gonna ignore me expect the same.

Re: Persus: It was context really. That particular point wasn't wooden, but it felt odd that he'd point out a rule people should really have seen already. Almost everything else in that particular post seemed like it was being said to be said, rather than promote content.

Those two things combined = bad juju.

[hector13]

'scuse me, you started it, lady.

[doll]

I have zero time right now and should not be posting
hector13
My tone changed because I was unsure if I was actually correct that I needed to be alive to do everything I intend to; I wasn't sure at that point if I was doing the right thing.
I've had it confirmed that my role changes when I die and become a ghost, losing my standard powers;
Therefore, my initial view (that I need to make it to N1) was correct.
Lenglon
I'll ask questions (when I have time), and you'll (all) answer those questions because I'm backing them with the pressure of two unblockable kills.
And hopefully people will stop looking at what I'm doing and take a look at the players who will still be alive after night 1.
I am dying N1.
I will die from over-using role powers an infinite amount of times.
I will do this because the opportunity of dying without blowing my kills etc. is too high for me
 

[Pozzai]

 Oh well a few thoughts of mine.

 Something something I'll disclosure later.

 Biggestfish.

 I agree with what a few people have either pointed out or alluded to that there's seems to be a lack of questions with a direction that seems to be determining alignments, most of the interactions they had is very surface level.
 On the other hand the lack of self-awareness shown in their posting, not making sure they read stuff and/or forgetting things tends to be more a town indicator than scum, because scum tends to be interested in coming off as 'pristine' as possible, not keeping track of stuff this early kind of spoils that.
 Overall I can see arguments made for either alignment, albeit I slightly lean towards town, slightly.

Jack:

 Dislike their initial post, feels way too staged for my likings, but seemingly this is a standard thing from them as no one bothered to correct him when they stated it, so may be just a standard thing of theirs. Initial gut vibe still downwards.

 Doll:

 Feels overly agro and demanding, dislike the entirety of their claim post, and their constant "don't bother with me go elsewhere to interact" posting bugs me.

Flabort:

 The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.

 All a bunch of weak leans and hedgy reads, but that's all I can get from this claiming meta >_>

[TolyK]

I find it amusing that, if doll is telling the truth, infinite actions are possible with just 1 role this time. Usually it requires 3, or mayyyyybe two, roles to work together...

[Jack A T]

Do you want to chat? There's a way we can chat in private. I can give more details regarding the actual experiment there. Are you up? (This would possibly eventually add more folks to said chat).
I'm tentatively trusting you, mostly because there's historically been little I can actually read from your posts (only from actions).

TolyK: Trust by virtue of unreadability is odd, but private chats have a tendency to be nocturnal chats.  Night chat access is valuable.  I doubt you're a cult leader, and if you are, you're gutsy enough to deserve this.  Invite me.
Do note that I cannot guarantee support for the actual experiment.

I'd actually apply a slight town lean to that behavior [(question-stealing)].

Fallacy: I agree in general, though specific situations will vary widely.  The counter-normative approach discourages risk-averse players.  In the case of 4maskwolf today, it is weakened somewhat by the context (RVS, relevance to my question to him...), but the concern came off both as real and as something he wanted out there.
What do you think of his move?

In addition, I just accepted TolyK's chat deal.  You find his offer rather questionable.  What do you think of this?  How has your read of me changed?

Considering Pozzai was already at the bottom of the playerlist I'm not sure why him ending up in that spot took that much more thought for you? Also, there's a pretty significant tonal shift from your question to OrigamiScienceGuy and your question to TolyK, which I'm curious about.

Tea: Regarding Pozzai, questions were not written entirely in OP player order.  Regarding the tonal shift, the Tiruin and OSG questions are both me not taking RVS all that seriously and me trying to see how two players respond to vague, open-ended questions that have the trappings of jokes.  I put thought into my shitty RVS questions.  Well, except the one to Shakerag.

I'm uncomfortable because I feel like the continual milking of reactions to this hella artificial thing diverts attention from things more likely to make the thread understand me and vice-versa.

"Milking" implies more effort in forcing reactions than was put in.  It is how little I did to generate your visible discomfort that makes me interested.  Many things could divert attention from the material most likely to help people understand you, but you're not demonstrating this sort of discomfort about "what would you do if you were a jester and had a daykill that only worked on Tuesdays at noon PST while shaving" questions.  You don't talk about those as if they are the most important things in the thread to their targets.  You don't hint at alignment relevance for them.  You dismiss them as, well, them.

So, one more question.  You mentioned that you don't see Pozzai or Lenglon's votes as alignment-indicative.  Having examined the question block, what can you say about my vote?

...Even though you posted before the game was rolled here, you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information.

What is there to be curious about?  flabort did not get a reference to something in a field he is not in.  What was interesting was that Webadict referenced the theme in the thread title, which flabort's post helpfully archived.

Jack:
 Dislike their initial post, feels way too staged for my likings, but seemingly this is a standard thing from them as no one bothered to correct him when they stated it, so may be just a standard thing of theirs. Initial gut vibe still downwards.

Pozzai: Can you give more explanation about the staged feeling?

Spoiler: Largely Irrelevant RVS Stuff (Shakerag, Hector responses) (click to show/hide)

Jack A T:

Shakerag: Are you scum?

Nahh, just an asshole.  How about you?

Shakerag: Same, but with less assholery.

What's your favourite colour?

Hector13: Hairbrush.

[Pozzai]

Jack:
 Dislike their initial post, feels way too staged for my likings, but seemingly this is a standard thing from them as no one bothered to correct him when they stated it, so may be just a standard thing of theirs. Initial gut vibe still downwards.

Pozzai: Can you give more explanation about the staged feeling?

 I feel like a majority of the questions were irrelevant for the progress of the game, and that your whole questionaire thingie, was more just to get your voice out, than to actually impact the game.

[4maskwolf]

I find it amusing that, if doll is telling the truth, infinite actions are possible with just 1 role this time. Usually it requires 3, or mayyyyybe two, roles to work together...

It's actually not too odd in webadict games, back in BYOR 13 IronyOwl's role could gain infinite actions for a single night but could not act for the rest of the game once the ability that gave infinite actions was used.

Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to?  What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for?  I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.

[Pozzai]

Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to?  What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for?  I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.

 More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.

 Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.

 I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.

[4maskwolf]

Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to?  What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for?  I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.

 More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.

 Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.

 I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.

What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up.  The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.

[Pozzai]

Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to?  What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for?  I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.

 More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.

 Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.

 I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.

 The sites I have played on have been very different as well.

 DLP/Fantasystrike focuses heavily on rulesets where claiming is generally out of necessity, not as something you do early, because  there's severe punishment to claims through scum actions.

 Personalitycafe meta is fairly fluffy, but still with a focus on getting reads through interactions, as opposed to claiming stuff and make in general one-way questions. Personalitycafe is fairly weak in terms of mechanical analysis, while DLP/FS is the opposite.