Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[doll]

Spoiler: Recent posts (posts cont.) (click to show/hide)

[/quote]

WoT Incomming
Double post also incoming.
I support the extension

flabort: Distant observer, mostly complaining about the laziness of others.  Posts are smaller than they look: non-noteworthy responses sandwiched between lightly trimmed quotes.  Contributed very little, and almost entirely against easy targets. Weak scum lean

flabort: I understand you like sitting back for much of D1.  People are starting to place non-RVS votes now, though, and are making arguments.  I'd like to see your comments on each sitting vote.

Hmmm... no, I won't comment on the sitting votes. But I'll do the next best thing in my next post, and go over each person's voting history during my reads.

flabort
I might go for a deep gameplay analysis in a bit if nothing develops otherwise, else:
1) Contributed a lot to the early game
2) My only misgivings are really from their interactions with myself which, as I said, I'm finding hard to read this game
3) If they deliver a strong day-game for the rest of D1, probably town. Else, probably scum. That sounds vacuous, but consider that it is in the context of a strong daygame until the end of RVS (where they stopped really posting), so now we get to see if they are active lurking or town

Um... I kind of didn't active lurk, but I kind of didn't post either for a while. I am kind of playing catch-up right now, reading everything I missed. I hope that by this point you haven't scum read me? Anyways, the days I've missed is why I'm splitting my responses and reads into two posts.

Flabort:

2) I call them leads because it was the only moderately useful conversation topic that existed so far. Leads refers to anything that can spark conversation and lead to somebody voting over the topic of conversation. And they were unhelpful leads to me because I can't pull any useful evidence out of the WIFOM that they produce. However, they still produced some conversation which lead to other conversation producing more leads to follow, even if some of these leads are still tangled in WIFOM.

Have you been able to find more helpful leads now? When do you plan on using your vote again?

Unvote I feel TBF has fulfilled what I was pressuring him into.

 Is that an actual townread, or just a "well at least they entered the game"?

 If the latter why not place your vote on a new spot you want to pressure?

 If the first, can you walk me through that townread?

This, basically.

Yes. I plan on using my vote in my next post, where I plan on putting my reads.

The latter. Because I felt there was enough pressure already going on, and I was waiting to get a proper read on people.

I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement. I'm just an anti-shulk right now. Sorry

Well, that's going to change my read on you.

Note: the mode change is NOT from me or shakerag. I have his entire role PM and he has most of mine, (doesnt have my alignment). Neither of us have anything to change the mode like that.  We are both town, but he cannot verify that I am even though I can verify he is. we have shared actions and votes, and he can post and/or act for me while im away.

Oh, I really would have loved to post as soon as this happened.

In rereading I've remembered why I didn't like flabort: an idea of activity just for the sake of activity. After all, what was he hoping to gain in the daygame by discussing me? Nothing except smoke, which he identified as such. It's a weaker case than I've ever had but I have also been intending to kill flabort which might have weakened the effort I put into my analysis of him.
So, flabort hasn't asked any questions since his first post in RVS.
I mean, he's been inactive for a while, but he never asked any more questions in his 'followup' of those RVS questions.
Flabort
You have been helpful but not especially productive.
What players would you feel confident in calling town or very likely town?
Do any players stick out to you as scum?
Does your role suggest to you any ways of dealing with potential third parties? (the 'and why' is purely optional on this one)

1) See next post by me
2) Yes. As either mafia or third parties, I am thinking potentially You, Persus, and up until a moment ago when I saw OSG had requested replacement I was thinking OSG. See next post.
3) Yeah, I can redirect them.

Anyway here's an off-topic thing for help in people peopleing!

I will also accept it/its and that asshole/that asshole's.

What about Bastard?
Which I will also accept Bastard as a pronoun in context of mafia and most forum games.

My reads of those 3:
Flabort - poison (emotion), idle (mental)
FoU - mild town (emotion), scum (mental)
TDS - null (emotion), un-noticed (I think hes idle? but am not sure, might have just missed posts?) (mental)
TolyK: you gonna explain why you didnt vote me earlier?

Tsk. I was gone too long for sure.

Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?

I don't place you at the very bottom, but yeah I do place you low. I also see that as white+bold, using the darkling color theme. Right now, as I'm going through what I missed, I don't see a problem with your read of Tea; I would have placed Lenglon at the bottom of the green section, maybe in the bold section. Anyways, like I have said, I will be posting my reads in a seperate post.

From top to bottom, lazy reads are lazy but they are in seperate post for ease of reading:
Me
Town. Dur. Tendency to be an observer (not the role), missed a couple days.
I only used my vote once, for pressure, but will be now.

TolyK
Though I have a hard time reading them, and their activity has been less than stellar in the latter half of the day, though my own activity has been even worse. Their content, on the other hand, has been superb - if you take a random sampling of their posts, you'll find plenty of rapid fire responses that were well thought out, and a few infodumps.
I'm leaning town on this one.

Persus13
Yes, they voted for me, but over a reason which they thought was legitimate and which I haven't done much to fix.
Despite leaving their vote on me, they are pursuing multiple leads, so I have to give them a mild-to-medium town lead on this one.

Hector13
WoT King. Hasn't been able to be very active, but activity < content, and he delivers that in... very concentrated clumps. Mild town lean.

Shakerag
Semi-confirmed town. Real alignment of course depends on confirming Lenglon, and with them being fused together it's nearly impossible to do that day 1 without killing them both and it would be nice to keep shakerag around for confirmed townie purposes. That said, I don't trust Lenglon, so.

4maskwolf
Often the first one to react. Was the first one to vote seriously. But... hasn't changed their vote since, or infact been heard from for a while. WAS a mild town read, now leaning neutral to third party.

Lenglon
Rather short, low-content posts. If you add together their high-quantity posts, it does come together for some content. I have a gut feeling that I shouldn't trust them, especially since for all intents and purposes by fusing with shakerag the sk-miller claim applies to them too, and they could be something pretending to be a miller now.

OSG
Only one post with content, the rest are blaming inactivity on siblings and then asking for a replacement. Given that from what I remember of OSG they never used this excuse before, so I was thinking it was some kind of gambit to garner attention but avoid being lynched. Null read now.

Tea
I have a gut feeling to trust them, but haven't seen anything which supports that. That said, they've been active enough, their reactions have been standard enough, they've posted lots of content, they seem to be fairly standard players since the start of the game. So, nothing I can really say has been unusual enough to base a read on.

Tiruin
From my experience, once you get to know her, reading her posts and reactions is more of a helpful scum hunting tool for reading other people than it is on reading her. Even if she herself doesn't see what I'm gleaning from her posts, which is caused by being friends with everyone, seeing the best in everyone, and very rarely reading someone as scum - but you can see who's suspicious by her interactions with them, and her tendency to keep conversations going. That said, she herself I haven't seen anything particularly town or anti-town.

TheBiggerFish
Up there in post count, low in content per post. Also, not great formatting, though I can read around that. Has kept a couple conversations going, but being limited to mobile has limited their ability to post and analyze. Null read.

FallacyOfUrist
I'm not seeing very much which I could consider a "tell" from them. I'm also not seeing much hunting, but they did post reads. Low-to-null opinion, I guess.

Pozzia
Well, there was some early aggression and adaptation to the meta, though not as much as Doll. That being said, holy wall of posts batman, Pozzia is the most prolific poster in this game. I remember Tiruin likes to say that the player who posts the most in a game is almost never scum, but that doesn't bean they can't be a third party, and it's not a law just a tendency. Between that and the debacle with the reads early in the day, I am leaning neutral or maybe mild scum on this person.

Jack AT
Veteran player, very used to making content filled posts that are town-oriented but overall hard to read. Very useful to read his posts, his reactions, and use them for scum hunting most of the time, but when you feel like he's not contributing as much as he usually does, it's possibly a sign of scum. Mild anti-town lean.

Doll
Although I have confused them with Pozzai earlier, they seem generally active. I SUPER do not trust their claim, especially the infinite actions part, or the purposeful WIFOM part. Who does WIFOM benefit? Nobody but scum. But Doll here has created much more WIFOM than anyone in the game. I very much suspect that they are an anti-town third party, or scum.

TheDarkStar
This is who I should have been pressuring with their posts/activity - or more accurately, their content. Pretty much the definition of active lurking. They've dropped pretty much conversation they've been in. Anti-town lean.

oh, to explain what poison means, its along the lines of condesention + lies / slippery phrasing, the kind of person who debates to win instead of debating to determine whats right. dirty tricks coming naturally, that sort of thing. It doesnt mean scum alignment, but it does mean I have to factcheck every single little thing they say and doublecheck context on responses and quotes. Even if they're confirmed to be on my own team!

dealing with that kind of person is exhausting. Im not saying he is like that, but I havent done the extreme backchecking needed to be comfortable saying he isnt, and he feels like he is. sooooooo, yeah, thats a thing.

I missed this.

I'm sorry that I exhaust you, and that my phrasing is slippery. It is not meant that way. I do agree, I debate to win, but I ALSO debate to determine what's right. Because I believe that what's right is what leads me to my victory, and what leads to my victory is right. This does mean, when I play as scum, that I lie, and use evidence out of context, to convince others that my vision of what is right is right, but I don't believe that I have done that this game.

...whoops. Looks like I failed to properly explain my thoughts.

Responses in the morning, but I have to tell you 4maskwolf that you completely misread my read on OSG. I thought they were doing an active lurking thing, up until their claim, so I WAS reading them as scum until I realized that they were legitimately unable to post, so I null-read them.

Again, I'm proving a negative - that Flabort is not interested in determining which players are not scum.
I will, therefore, look at every question Flabort has ever asked:

Spoiler: RVS (click to show/hide)

Shakerag
Which mafia game in this forum was your favorite to play? What did you learn from it that you can apply to this game?

TheDarkStar
What is the strangest but surprisingly effective scumhunting tactic you've ever seen?


Tiruin
Each time Doll makes a post, how do you physically react? Does anyone else give you a similar feeling? Does anyone give you a worse feeling?

OragamiScience
How much of Mafia is emotional, how much is critical thinking, and how much is BS?

TolyK
Let's say it was saturday and you had a majority voting on you. You have two potential suspects for the actual scum team, and you can make a good case on one but town has made it's case against you based on your earlier unfounded suspicions on that person; the case that you can make against your other suspect is much weaker, but wouldn't look like a tunnel-vision case. What do you do?

Hector13
If you were town and I wrongfully voted for you over a vote you made, what would your reaction be?

Fallacy
What is your favorite gambit (to use or in theory), and how would you counter it if you found it being used against you?

Persus13
Long time no interact. What do you feel you'll be bringing to the scum-hunting table this time around?

4maskwolf
What significance do you think the titles pre-game had? If what Jack AT and Doll said is true, it seems they have to do with themes and/or roles - do you believe this for a minute, and if so, do you think what they said about it is a form of role fishing?

TheBiggerFish
At what stage does RVS end for you? Do you ignore RVS like some and wait until later in the day to start scum hunting, or do you find RVS to yield useful data sometimes?

Tea
Explain in your own words the significance of a Finger of Suspicion.

Pozzai
I'm not going to be a jerk and random vote you for being new - what do you think about the people who would do this? Who do you think is capable of this, and why?

Well, this was actual RVS so it's no surprise that it's just RVS.

OK, here's the question.
What do you want to bet that Shakes is an SK-Miller Scum? There's nothing saying that a miller HAS to be town,  after all, just that they are TYPICALLY town behind their inaccurate investigation.

This is in RVS because, while it does ask about a feature of this game specifically, it asks about a contextless feature which exists essentially as part of Shakerag's RVS - this is an addendum to an existing facet of RVS, and not a transition into the search for town (it is a hypothetical, in effect).

I also see that you think Doll was TOO into it. Is there an optimal level of activity, in your opinion?

Note how he manages to convert an actual discussion of a scum-read into a hypothetical question about playstyles.

Spoiler: Rhetorical (click to show/hide)

Yes, I'm trying to do that.

flabort: Do you think pressure votes actually help?

Absolutely. Why don't you try harder, maybe ask more people questions?

What do you think of that term, Collective Reads (which I just made up based on our standard set of terms )?

I can't tell, have you played on this site before? You almost sound like... you've been reading the thread about making games more newbie friendly, haven't you? Well, I don't expect veteran level play, but I do expect high-level play - your comments about not being new to mafia support this expectation.

You find the ambiguity, the "if you were town" part, and the part where in that hypothetical scenario I set myself up as the scum all to be odd. Was I right?

Ah yes this is typical of Shakerag. He's town guys, no worries. I definitely think you should read #4, it's funny as shit, but yes he is clearly shitposting. Fallacy why are you shit posting.?

Just curious, where is this number coming from?

This isn't strictly rhetorical but it's not a real question with regards to the game, if you see what I'm trying to convey.

Spoiler: Actually useful (click to show/hide)

I don't have a lot of analysis to post because Flabort has no content to analyze.
This is indicative of the fact that Flabort has no interesting in trying to determine the alignments of other players, because he is already scum.

[doll]

Ah, while I remember:
With regards to the strength of my read on 4maskwolf:
1) 4maskwolf ha(d) a very established scum-meta of, essentially, defensive play and lurking
2) I haven't seen a game where scum!4maskwolf didn't comply to this meta
3) I very easily picked 4maskwolf as scum in the recent BM along these lines
4) 4maskwolf is not complying to this meta as it would predict his activity on D1
5) Therefore, it would be very hard for me to pick 4maskwolf as scum on Day 1, regardless of whether this is a result of his improving his scum-play or of his being town
6) My time-horizon for this game is Day 1
7) Therefore, from my perspective (until I am dead and start taking actions at that time) 4maskwolf is town
Outside of his meta, my read on 4maskwolf is strong town anyway, so it's hardly a concern of mine to narrow down how much of that is a result of meta-analysis and how much is a 'naked read' so to speak.

[TheBiggerFish]

Wow, that was sudden and angry.

doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.

[Shakerag]

TheBiggerFish:

Wow, that was sudden and angry.

doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.

Think, man. 

If doll had that many votes, why would he/she/it need to convince us to vote flabort?

Also, hey I survived the weekend.

[hector13]

Wow, that was sudden and angry.

doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.

Are you just going to ignore my questions for the rest of the game, in favour of pointless comments?

Notice me senpai.

[Shakerag]

PSA:  I'm going to be on vacation from this Thursday the 8th through next Tuesday the 13th.  I will try to make every effort to sneak in time to read/post.

[Tiruin]

PFP Extend (When does day end? Bad internet = no checky at most free-time area. Will have time to finally post tomorrow <_>)

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

4mask - okay, well, doll compiled a readslist several posts back with the intention of using it to decide upon her two nightkills for N1.

doll - He/Him

Y'all love your baseless assumptions, eh? Neither of these assertions have any basis in what I've said, other than the much earlier part where I said I'd kill FoU (that's still true).

Y'all? D:
Sorry! I was acting on when you had earlier said he/him a long time ago in our earliest games! If you'd like, I'd use they instead!

Wow, that was sudden and angry.

doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.

Are you just going to ignore my questions for the rest of the game, in favour of pointless comments?

Notice me senpai.

It's like none of my words came over to TBF. .-.;
TBF: This is plaintive but why do you miss many people addressing you?
And why do you ask something that you can see the effect of, publicly, later on? Forward planning and otherwise; what purpose is that question?
Because Doll can just vote 'a lot' but for emphasis instead of 'hey I've a ton of votes'.

[...]

If doll had that many votes, why would he/she/it need to convince us to vote flabort?

Also, hey I survived the weekend.

In meatspace; please live and take care of yourself :O You're a rather nice person when a person gets to know you. :p
Now back to work.

Now Tiruin doesn't seem to get it, but active-lurking is the only scumtell.

Well um ._.
TDS, OSG, and a couple others have pretty much done that--while it is, or was, the weekend, TDS has particularly been away for DCSS tournament as I could see his posts, and OSG has been active in other places than post here OTHER than a replacement request [which I'm moreso curious as when I checked, and as a response to 4mask, it could be construed as him active lurking too]

And since this wasn't asked; Flabort

This... there's two options I see. Either you are a Jester asking to be lynched, or novice scum. #6 and #7 are suuuper suspicious.

Why are those two options something you saw and thought reasonable when you read doll's list?

PPE

PSA:  I'm going to be on vacation from this Thursday the 8th through next Tuesday the 13th.  I will try to make every effort to sneak in time to read/post.

You have Lenglon, don't you? :V

Wow, that was sudden and angry.

It was partially telegraphed [if I've to be serious in doll's "degree of :I"] by the way he addressed his recent posts before the red wall, actually.

How much of the game do you feel confidently covered in reading?

[webadict]

Webadict: Let's say a tracker follows the mafioso who carries out the kill.  If the mafioso is also targeting someone else with their own powers, the tracker would see both targets, yes?

All targets are shown when tracking normally.

[Tiruin]

« Last Edit: Today at 09:42:02 am by Tiruin »

^ TFW you try and edit by way of post and you press 'save' while modifying to copy paste because you missed the preview button. -_-

[Lenglon]

...
well, first off, doll, my apologies, and what is your preferred pronoun? Im fairly certain ive used both genders in reference to you so in whatever case Im wrong.
next, how close/far is day end and flabort from hammer? I dont want to accidently hammer, and dont want to extend because this feels like a long D1 already and extending I think will just exhaust interest, but am unsure of the votestate and cant lurkertrack to check.
Doll - ive cursory-read your cases on flabort, will be re-reading for details and any questions on the content shortly.
FoU: please post soon

[FallacyofUrist]

Reading through the thread(seeing what's happened in my absence) now.

[Lenglon]

anyone thats not doll - could you verify that doll's listing of flabort's posts is complete? Im going to be assuming it is for now, but would like verification.

[FallacyofUrist]

Also, to the person who said earlier extending was a good idea: yah. Extend.

[Persus13]

The only people voting flabort right now are Jack, 4maskwolf, and doll. Assuming the three of them only have one vote each, that's 6 away from hammer.

According to the last vote count, day end is at 8 PM CST, which is 9 and a half hours away from this post, give or take an hour for daylight savings.

9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 5th at 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.[/font]

We need 66% of all players to vote for an extension to pass. That's 10.5 players, so either we need 10 or 11 players to vote for an extension. We've had at least 4 votes to extend. Personally, I don't think we're at a good ending point right now, assuming TolyK responds before day end.

[Persus13]

EBWOP

That last sentence should say "I don't think an extension is necessary we seem to be at a good ending point to the day." Doll has stuff planned out, and people are rallying around lynching either TBF or flabort. Again, this is assuming I'll have time in a couple hours to look through some posts and that TolyK has a chance to respond.