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Author Topic: BYOR 0 - Game Over: Everyone Dies, SK wins  (Read 196240 times)

Tea

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #555 on: June 04, 2017, 11:02:50 am »

I'm surprised to see him give implicit agreement to your order of the 2 I asked about/Tiruin based on prior reads of his.
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Lenglon

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #556 on: June 04, 2017, 11:05:49 am »

Heh, thats the general section Id be rearranging. Theres a reason I voted 4mask after all - inactivity nullread.
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Tea

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #557 on: June 04, 2017, 11:11:35 am »

Oh wait doll's. #halfasleep
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hector13

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #558 on: June 04, 2017, 11:45:00 am »

The strength of my read on 4mask is based on meta, and the fact that he hasn't followed the behavior chronic to D1 scum!4maskwolf which I used to find him in the BM.
For this reason, players not sharing that meta-context should have a weaker townread of 4maskwolf than I do.

Mmm...

You said this regarding flabort earlier in the day:

I've actually had a gut feeling that flabort is scum this whole game, and it comes back every time I read over other players interacting with him.
However, when I read flabort's early game content I saw high-quality RVS stuff in RVS, and then he sort of trailed off.
Like I said, his towniness is dependent on his continuing what had the makings of a strong daygame; trailing off on the strength of his RVS is an easy direction to see scum!flabort as going in.

It looks to me that around the time of 4mask's last post that the game is getting out of RVS.

I guess my question is: in light of the BM that you're basing the 4mask meta-read on being very recent - the last game you both played in, I think, thus very likely influencing how much effort he puts in earlier in this game - why does 4mask indulging in stronger early game play earn him a free pass after his effort trails off, while flabort's doesn't?
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hector13

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #559 on: June 04, 2017, 11:53:08 am »

Shameless double-post of awesomeness.

hector13:
Fair enough. Much better post, though lol at only spending an hour on a WoT :P

Still a bit iffy about you bringing up the hammers, 'cause it was D1 and as Tolyk pointed out, 9 voted are required to hammer at this point. Seems like an awful lot of votes to be worried about.
Man, editing this WoT down was annoying. Also I definitely spent more than an hour writing two of my giant posts this game.

My thought process was basically "There are three votes are Tea, I wonder if there are hammers? Oh there are, I should remind people that there are."

So you voted FoU in this post, do you plan on lynching him on day end

If yo

... Snake Persus? Persus!? PERSUUUUUUS!?!?

/ha

I voted FoU because I felt my vote would be better placed there at that juncture. His reads list doesn't make sense to me, and I wanted clarification with the proviso that if it wasn't to a reasonable standard, I'd be inclined to keep my vote on him.

Presently I would be alright with an FoU lynch, but I'd really rather have him respond to the clarification request, walk us through his thought process a bit before fully committing to my vote.

I'm slightly bemused why he didn't vote for an extension if he knew he wasn't able to post until the last day of D1, too.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #560 on: June 04, 2017, 12:58:54 pm »

Extend?

@TDS: Oh come on.

(Still reading/rereading/responding, expect rapid-fire post fragments.)
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #561 on: June 04, 2017, 01:02:05 pm »

TBF seems scummy because his posts are low on substance. He makes cases on people that only exist because he ignores things they say (see my vote on him). Sometimes it seems like he's just pushing a lynch to push a lynch and not to actually find scum.
No, that wasn't me ignoring what Pozzai said, it was me not being satisfied by Pozzai's explanation when he said what he said.
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flabort

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Welcome To Sundown!
« Reply #562 on: June 04, 2017, 01:19:10 pm »

WoT Incomming
Double post also incoming.
I support the extension


flabort: Distant observer, mostly complaining about the laziness of others.  Posts are smaller than they look: non-noteworthy responses sandwiched between lightly trimmed quotes.  Contributed very little, and almost entirely against easy targets. Weak scum lean


flabort: I understand you like sitting back for much of D1.  People are starting to place non-RVS votes now, though, and are making arguments.  I'd like to see your comments on each sitting vote.
Hmmm... no, I won't comment on the sitting votes. But I'll do the next best thing in my next post, and go over each person's voting history during my reads.

flabort
I might go for a deep gameplay analysis in a bit if nothing develops otherwise, else:
1) Contributed a lot to the early game
2) My only misgivings are really from their interactions with myself which, as I said, I'm finding hard to read this game
3) If they deliver a strong day-game for the rest of D1, probably town. Else, probably scum. That sounds vacuous, but consider that it is in the context of a strong daygame until the end of RVS (where they stopped really posting), so now we get to see if they are active lurking or town
Um... I kind of didn't active lurk, but I kind of didn't post either for a while. I am kind of playing catch-up right now, reading everything I missed. I hope that by this point you haven't scum read me? Anyways, the days I've missed is why I'm splitting my responses and reads into two posts.

Flabort:
2) I call them leads because it was the only moderately useful conversation topic that existed so far. Leads refers to anything that can spark conversation and lead to somebody voting over the topic of conversation. And they were unhelpful leads to me because I can't pull any useful evidence out of the WIFOM that they produce. However, they still produced some conversation which lead to other conversation producing more leads to follow, even if some of these leads are still tangled in WIFOM.
Have you been able to find more helpful leads now? When do you plan on using your vote again?

Unvote I feel TBF has fulfilled what I was pressuring him into.

 Is that an actual townread, or just a "well at least they entered the game"?

 If the latter why not place your vote on a new spot you want to pressure?

 If the first, can you walk me through that townread?
This, basically.
Yes. I plan on using my vote in my next post, where I plan on putting my reads.

The latter. Because I felt there was enough pressure already going on, and I was waiting to get a proper read on people.

I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement. I'm just an anti-shulk right now. Sorry
Well, that's going to change my read on you.

Note: the mode change is NOT from me or shakerag. I have his entire role PM and he has most of mine, (doesnt have my alignment). Neither of us have anything to change the mode like that.  We are both town, but he cannot verify that I am even though I can verify he is. we have shared actions and votes, and he can post and/or act for me while im away.
Oh, I really would have loved to post as soon as this happened.

In rereading I've remembered why I didn't like flabort: an idea of activity just for the sake of activity. After all, what was he hoping to gain in the daygame by discussing me? Nothing except smoke, which he identified as such. It's a weaker case than I've ever had but I have also been intending to kill flabort which might have weakened the effort I put into my analysis of him.

So, flabort hasn't asked any questions since his first post in RVS.
I mean, he's been inactive for a while, but he never asked any more questions in his 'followup' of those RVS questions.
Flabort
You have been helpful but not especially productive.
What players would you feel confident in calling town or very likely town?
Do any players stick out to you as scum?
Does your role suggest to you any ways of dealing with potential third parties? (the 'and why' is purely optional on this one)
1) See next post by me
2) Yes. As either mafia or third parties, I am thinking potentially You, Persus, and up until a moment ago when I saw OSG had requested replacement I was thinking OSG. See next post.
3) Yeah, I can redirect them.

Anyway here's an off-topic thing for help in people peopleing!
Quote from: Pronouns!
I will also accept it/its and that asshole/that asshole's.
What about Bastard? :P
Which I will also accept Bastard as a pronoun in context of mafia and most forum games.

My reads of those 3:
Flabort - poison (emotion), idle (mental)
FoU - mild town (emotion), scum (mental)
TDS - null (emotion), un-noticed (I think hes idle? but am not sure, might have just missed posts?) (mental)

TolyK: you gonna explain why you didnt vote me earlier?
Tsk. I was gone too long for sure.

Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?
I don't place you at the very bottom, but yeah I do place you low. I also see that as white+bold, using the darkling color theme. Right now, as I'm going through what I missed, I don't see a problem with your read of Tea; I would have placed Lenglon at the bottom of the green section, maybe in the bold section. Anyways, like I have said, I will be posting my reads in a seperate post.
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hector13

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #563 on: June 04, 2017, 01:20:15 pm »

PFP, hence lack of formatting of what I want to refer.

So, my last big post. TBF doesn't seem to have answered the question I asked of him regarding Pozzai in the first section, or commented on the "you think Pozzai is the most suspicious but you're not voting for them" thing.

Also, the reason I wanted people to take another look at one of his posts is I get the feeling he's being coached from it.

PPE: not read flabsy's post yet.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #564 on: June 04, 2017, 02:22:07 pm »

I don't, haven't I explained that before?  I got ninja'd by something that basically disproved the main cause of my suspicions, as I have explained, repeatedly.
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4maskwolf

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #565 on: June 04, 2017, 02:28:07 pm »

I support the extension for what should be obvious reasons.

Sorry, I had a very busy week at work and how no energy or motivation to play mafia in the short times I wasn't sleeping, eating, or on the clock.

unvote because so much has happened my original voting reasons are no longer relevant.

I've read through everything once but I'm going to have to read through it all again, everything is really dense this game.

flabort

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #566 on: June 04, 2017, 02:34:12 pm »

From top to bottom, lazy reads are lazy but they are in seperate post for ease of reading:
Me
Town. Dur. Tendency to be an observer (not the role), missed a couple days.
I only used my vote once, for pressure, but will be now.

TolyK
Though I have a hard time reading them, and their activity has been less than stellar in the latter half of the day, though my own activity has been even worse. Their content, on the other hand, has been superb - if you take a random sampling of their posts, you'll find plenty of rapid fire responses that were well thought out, and a few infodumps.
I'm leaning town on this one.

Persus13
Yes, they voted for me, but over a reason which they thought was legitimate and which I haven't done much to fix.
Despite leaving their vote on me, they are pursuing multiple leads, so I have to give them a mild-to-medium town lead on this one.

Hector13
WoT King. Hasn't been able to be very active, but activity < content, and he delivers that in... very concentrated clumps. Mild town lean.

Shakerag
Semi-confirmed town. Real alignment of course depends on confirming Lenglon, and with them being fused together it's nearly impossible to do that day 1 without killing them both and it would be nice to keep shakerag around for confirmed townie purposes. That said, I don't trust Lenglon, so.

4maskwolf
Often the first one to react. Was the first one to vote seriously. But... hasn't changed their vote since, or infact been heard from for a while. WAS a mild town read, now leaning neutral to third party.

Lenglon
Rather short, low-content posts. If you add together their high-quantity posts, it does come together for some content. I have a gut feeling that I shouldn't trust them, especially since for all intents and purposes by fusing with shakerag the sk-miller claim applies to them too, and they could be something pretending to be a miller now.

OSG
Only one post with content, the rest are blaming inactivity on siblings and then asking for a replacement. Given that from what I remember of OSG they never used this excuse before, so I was thinking it was some kind of gambit to garner attention but avoid being lynched. Null read now.

Tea
I have a gut feeling to trust them, but haven't seen anything which supports that. That said, they've been active enough, their reactions have been standard enough, they've posted lots of content, they seem to be fairly standard players since the start of the game. So, nothing I can really say has been unusual enough to base a read on.

Tiruin
From my experience, once you get to know her, reading her posts and reactions is more of a helpful scum hunting tool for reading other people than it is on reading her. Even if she herself doesn't see what I'm gleaning from her posts, which is caused by being friends with everyone, seeing the best in everyone, and very rarely reading someone as scum - but you can see who's suspicious by her interactions with them, and her tendency to keep conversations going. That said, she herself I haven't seen anything particularly town or anti-town.

TheBiggerFish
Up there in post count, low in content per post. Also, not great formatting, though I can read around that. Has kept a couple conversations going, but being limited to mobile has limited their ability to post and analyze. Null read.

FallacyOfUrist
I'm not seeing very much which I could consider a "tell" from them. I'm also not seeing much hunting, but they did post reads. Low-to-null opinion, I guess.

Pozzia
Well, there was some early aggression and adaptation to the meta, though not as much as Doll. That being said, holy wall of posts batman, Pozzia is the most prolific poster in this game. I remember Tiruin likes to say that the player who posts the most in a game is almost never scum, but that doesn't bean they can't be a third party, and it's not a law just a tendency. Between that and the debacle with the reads early in the day, I am leaning neutral or maybe mild scum on this person.

Jack AT
Veteran player, very used to making content filled posts that are town-oriented but overall hard to read. Very useful to read his posts, his reactions, and use them for scum hunting most of the time, but when you feel like he's not contributing as much as he usually does, it's possibly a sign of scum. Mild anti-town lean.

Doll
Although I have confused them with Pozzai earlier, they seem generally active. I SUPER do not trust their claim, especially the infinite actions part, or the purposeful WIFOM part. Who does WIFOM benefit? Nobody but scum. But Doll here has created much more WIFOM than anyone in the game. I very much suspect that they are an anti-town third party, or scum.

TheDarkStar
This is who I should have been pressuring with their posts/activity - or more accurately, their content. Pretty much the definition of active lurking. They've dropped pretty much conversation they've been in. Anti-town lean.


oh, to explain what poison means, its along the lines of condesention + lies / slippery phrasing, the kind of person who debates to win instead of debating to determine whats right. dirty tricks coming naturally, that sort of thing. It doesnt mean scum alignment, but it does mean I have to factcheck every single little thing they say and doublecheck context on responses and quotes. Even if they're confirmed to be on my own team!

dealing with that kind of person is exhausting. Im not saying he is like that, but I havent done the extreme backchecking needed to be comfortable saying he isnt, and he feels like he is. sooooooo, yeah, thats a thing.
I missed this.

I'm sorry that I exhaust you, and that my phrasing is slippery. It is not meant that way. I do agree, I debate to win, but I ALSO debate to determine what's right. Because I believe that what's right is what leads me to my victory, and what leads to my victory is right. This does mean, when I play as scum, that I lie, and use evidence out of context, to convince others that my vision of what is right is right, but I don't believe that I have done that this game.

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The Cyan Menace

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hector13

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #567 on: June 04, 2017, 03:30:08 pm »

I don't, haven't I explained that before?  I got ninja'd by something that basically disproved the main cause of my suspicions, as I have explained, repeatedly.

You haven't explained that before. You explained the tone change, but neglected to mention that it was a read change at some point too.

G'on then, though. Tell us what about the interaction between Pozzai and Tir did to change your mind, 'cause it looks like it was just because Pozzai was interacting with someone else (Tir) and that's why a I asked the question you've still not answered.

Was Pozzai seeking out the interaction, or reacting to someone else interacting with the ?
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hector13

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Lenglon and Shakerag Fusion Dance
« Reply #568 on: June 04, 2017, 03:32:10 pm »

Actually, I don't think you even explained the tonal change in relation to the post in which you said "Pozzai is ultra suspicious, but unvote anyway", unless I misinterpreted what you were referring to when you said there was a tonal change.

Could you quote the post that you were referring to when you say your tone changed halfway through?
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

If you struggle with your mental health, please seek help.

Persus13

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Re: BYOR 0 - Day 1: Welcome To Sundown!
« Reply #569 on: June 04, 2017, 04:15:57 pm »

I need to read through TDS, Fallacy, flabort, TolyK, and TBF's posts again to see if I can come up with anything useful. I'd be happy with a Fallacy or TBF lynch today, flabort's still kindof iffy, and TDS and TolyK have had some odd stuf recently I'd like to check. Null on 4maskwolf, Jack A T, OSG, and Tiruin. Mostly Town read on Lenglon, Tea. Doll is doll, and Pozzai is new to Bay12.

Or come up with a creative portmanteau of their names. Personally, I'm fond of Lakelon.
Lekelag, Shanglorag, Shakelon. Maybe I should leave this to you.

Doll:
Jack's analysis.
Thanks for taking the time out to find that for me. Also, this post was a little confusing who all the quotes were directed to.
Spoiler: Off-topic (click to show/hide)

Lenglon:
Lenglon and Shakerag have been fused!
Is this permanent? Are you willing to say how actions would affect you two?

TolyK:
... So, things happened. One we get a public explanation of. Second is unknown what it even does.

Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!

I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?
Why are you acting so freaked about that? Why are you confused why no one's talking about it? The only known benefactors are the Mafia. No one has claimed it, and Lenglon has explicitly stated its not from her. As doll and TBF pointed out, asking what Survival mode is pointless, since it was likely a scum player, unless a town player who hasn't posted recently did it.

I'm more confused about why you put made an outburst about this, because it feels super forced, especially since my impressions of your posts tend to be fairly reasoned with mild positive emotion.

Tiruin/Pozzai:
Also, if 3-man scumteam (why do you assume this? What factors are involved?) how many 3Ps if any would you think exists ?
Webadict's BYOR have had a variety of scum opponents and assuming its a vanilla game might be a bad idea considering the past two BYORs. BYOR 14 had 16 players and two scumteams of three players each and a mafia ally, and was the one where Shakerag constantly committed suicide. BYOR13 had 17 players, no mafia and 5 Sks and an Sk-ally, and was the one Shakerag won, despite being the D1 lynch. Hopefully this mafia game will be a bit more tame, although the Shakerag shenanigan of the game has already begun, it seems. So a three man scum team is possible, personally i think its a little on the small side. We simply don't know at this point, and making assumptions is a bad idea. In BYOR 13, no one figured out that there were 5 SKs and no Mafia until webadict told them in dead chat, or by the end of the game.

Spoiler: Notable quotes (click to show/hide)

Jack A T
How's the vote on Tea going? Whose your second/third choice for the rope right now?
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