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[fillipk]

Votecount:
*Shakerag - (0)
*NJW2000 - TheDarkStar (1)
*AbstractTraitorHero - Tolyk (1)
*Megggas - (0)
*Hector13 - NJW2000 (1)
*Tolyk - Shakerag (1)
*oragamiscienceguy - Hector13 (1)
*TheDarkStar - Megggas (1)
No Lynch - (0)

Not voting: AbstractTraitorHero, oragamiscienceguy,

Extension requests: NA
Shorten requests: 0/5

Day ends at 1:30 PM PST Monday, November 15th.  There are zero extensions available.

[origamiscienceguy]

I believe hector is still voting for me.

[TheDarkStar]

TheDarkStar:  In addition to my questions here, what is your read on Tomasque's replacement, Shakerag?

Pfp

TDS, what are your reads on Shakerag and OSG, and why?

Null on Shakerag because he isn't posting.

I see OSG as town after reading through his exchanges with NJW2000.

TheDarkStar:
You also haven't responded to some of my questions.

ATH is giving off a town vibe to me and he's the only one claiming cop. There's still a chance that he's lying and that we only have a jailor, but scum generally don't draw attention to themselves Day 1.

I voted for roo because, while he might have been scum defending his ally, he was also acting like scum trying to push a lynch on someone.

Why mention the fact that roo never made an outright claim if it was implied heavily enough that multiple people asked him about it?

Roo would have voted for ATH if he (roo) was the cop but not if he (roo) was scum. If ATH got lynched and flipped cop, then roo would have been the next lynch; if ATH flipped scum, roo would have been confirmed as cop. Roo's hesitancy to vote for someone he apparently knew to be scum was the main reason that I voted for him.

In your first post of Day 1, you asked Roo why he thought ATH was scum, but it was only a few posts earlier where Roo had declared ATH a troll and unvoted him.  Later, Roo posted a bunch of town reads and a null read on the "troll".  I understand how Roo's hesitancy was suspicious, but how was Roo trying to push a lynch on someone?  Why did you think at the time of your first post that Roo considered ATH to be scum?

Also, would you care to list the reasons for your suspicions and town reads?

Sorry about this question, I thought I had answered it already.

I've seen scum try to make someone look scummy by making a case on them but not actually voting to avoid the town's suspicion after a mislynch.

My read list:

Questins for townies
Do you believe I'm cop?
Who feels most suspicious?
Why was their no scum kill night 1?
Who feels most town?
Who do you think i should investigate/inspect (if you believe I'm cop)?

Mostly, but not entirely.
You, hector13, NJW2000, and Megggas.
Probably the jailor.
I see myself as the most town. After that, TolyK, hector13, Tomasque, and maybe OSG (although he's more of a null read).
NJW.

ATH - I'm still not entirely sure, but I'm leaning towards him being cop for now. We'll see what happens tomorrow.
hector13 (for some reason I listed him under town and scum) - His posts give off a town vibe to me. He is also active and scumhunts.
NJW2000 - Scummy because he keeps trying to push lynches on people (most recently hector13) by misconstruing their posts. It often seems like he's decided who to lynch and is now trying to find something to back that up rather than figuring out who to lynch based on the things he finds out.
TheDarkStar - Unquestionably town .
TolyK - Has focused entirely on ATH, leaning scum. Tolyk: Because the scumteam has two people in it, who else do you suspect?
Tomasque/Shakerag - null because almost no posts.
OSG - He gives off a town vibe through his exchanges with NJW2000.
Megggas - Also town, this time because he asks questions and scumhunts.

Currently, I think NJW2000 is the best lynch, but we have a tied vote right now. I think that the scum are two out of {NJW, Tolyk, Shakerag} because everyone else seems to be more town. ATH is also a possibility, but I think it's more likely he's cop.

[TheDarkStar]

Also, to avoid a tie and because he's my second scumpick: TolyK

[Megggas]

(pfp)
Unvote.
Thanks for answering my questions, thedarkstar.
After looking over NJW's previous game, I have more if a null tell on him at the moment.  I still think hector13 is probably town, despite his recent questionable behavior.  I think Ath is the cop, thus him and shakerag are clear at the moment.  Origamiscienceguy is a null tell at the moment.  Im leaning toward town for you at the moment.  I'm gonna vote TolyK for now, since his reasoning for voting ATH seems to fluctuate too much and he hasn't put any significant effort into scum hunting anyone else.  I'll elaborate on my reasons later.

[hector13]

Just so everyone is aware, this is why I'm scumreading Origami:

Spoiler: Misrepresenting my play (click to show/hide)

This is the post that I urged OSG to vote NJW.

Emphasis mine:

I am indifferent to the great hector-NJW debate. My reason for voting hector is that he was trying to get me on to his wagon quite relentlessly. While throwing around scumtells that I do not see myself.

I don't know who your scum partner may be. I don't think it is NJW, but other than that, I think it could be anybody. I don't see anything particularly scummy from you except for your incessant demand that I vote NJW, which you stopped. I didn't have anything else, so I unvoted. Are you happy?

I was saying this to you because you were insisting that I vote NJW. I was fine with you voting him for whatever reason you want, but not if you were trying to force me to do so as well. I thought his actions were perfectly reasonable.

If anyone can tell me I was relentlessly encouraging other people to vote for NJW, this part can be rescinded.

Also:

What makes you think he's not tunneling?

The fact that every vanilla townie has only one weapon, a vote. And just because he uses his vote on you does not warrant an all-out attempt to undermine their only power. You are reacting in the completely wrong way to someone voting for you. You should be making arguments to counter his own rather than flailing around random scum-tells to a completely townie action.

Hector13

Anyone reading the argument NJW and I had will know I did make counter-arguments, as well as throwing scum-tells around.

Also:

I bring up VT because you assume he is scum, but I see no reason that he can't be a VT. If he were VT, then I would find his actions completely reasonable. I myself would not like it if someone took my vote and turned it into me tunneling. Especially if it is an OMGUS. I may have assumed he was VT for the sake of a hypothetical situation, but never assumed he was one in the game.

@Hector:

I did answer your question. You assumed he was scum, I made sure to keep the option of him being VT open. If he was VT, his actions would make sense, if he was scum, his actions would make sense. Just like every other player in this game. That is the extent of my hypothetical situation.

That is not the case. It sounds like purposefully not understanding so you can continue the illusion of scumhunting. I never assumed he was VT in the game. I was making a hypothetical situation to attempt to show you how your assumption of him being scum was wrong. Never did that give me an assumption of NJW in the real game.

Let me ask a question back at you then:

Which of NJW's actions are unique only to scum?

I myself never assumed he was VT. I created a hypothetical situation where he was VT to attempt to show you that his actions made sense as a VT.

But:

I haven't changed anything. I've just been clarifying more and more to the point that things I thought were self-explanatory now have to have their own explanations which you perceive to be changing opinions. I figured that "His actions make sense as a VT" would explain everything, but you need me to rephrase it as "If NJW was a VT, none of his actions would be odd or out of the ordinary."  And suddenly, you think that I am inventing hypothetical situations.

I understand that you perceived him as tunneling because you thought he was scum. I myself saw the same thing you saw and didn't think anything of it because those actions would be reasonable for townie. How many times do I need to rephrase this?

Obviously I'm pulling the fact OSG is creating a hypothetical situation from the ether.

Spoiler: Changing his answers to my questions (click to show/hide)

Basically at this point I'm trying to find out why he used the phrase "vanilla townie" in reference to NJW in this post. I said he seemed to be assuming NJW was a VT, which I said is a role as well as an alignment. Again, emphasis mine:

I never assumed NJW was VT. What you saw as "scummy" I saw as "reasonable action for a VT" that's the end of it.

I bring up VT because you assume he is scum, but I see no reason that he can't be a VT. If he were VT, then I would find his actions completely reasonable. I myself would not like it if someone took my vote and turned it into me tunneling. Especially if it is an OMGUS. I may have assumed he was VT for the sake of a hypothetical situation, but never assumed he was one in the game.

This hypothetical situation was an answer to a direct question I asked about NJW's play in this post, OSG's answer is this post.

Also, Megas, you'll want to elaborate on your reasons as soon as possible; day ends in about 5 hours.

[TolyK]

TolyK - Has focused entirely on ATH, leaning scum.
Tolyk: Because the scumteam has two people in it, who else do you suspect?

I have focused entirely on ATH, partially because of time, and partially because I really really don't get why people aren't suspicious of him. I have, however, already closed my case on him with the giant post and have moved on. (Though unfortunately you'd be right to say I haven't made much content since).


Since it seems like I'm about to by lynched as everone's third scumpick, and I don't really like being lynched, and people seem to trust ATH and not want to lynch him...
Eh. Unvote.

I feel the argument between hector and NJW is basically a townfight, though in my read-through I got pings on OSG (finding details on phone is hard :/), so I'd be sort-of OK with lynching him.

PFP.

PPE: Yeah, kinda, hector. The misrepresenting part.

[Shakerag]

Megggas:

Shakerag:  What is your opinion of TolyK's case against ATH?  You quoted parts of it in one of your replies to him, but you didn't say how you viewed it overall.

Feels flimsy to me.  Although I may have a bit of a bias as I'm inclined to think of ATH as town.  I think that, if this weren't a beginner's game, I'd be giving it a bit more serious consideration.  But as it is, it feels like TolyK is just trying to shoot for some low-hanging fruit.


NJW2000:

Shakerag:

This and this were your last two posts, in two days, one post each day or so. You used, in this, 3 IC voice replies, one "lolz" and one helpful bit of clarification. While you clearly have had time to read and laugh about the game, and help people out, were you out frisking in the meadows too much to ask any questions or provide any contentful comments?

I have stated before that my activity level will always be low due to my only being able to post from work.  And I have been a bit busier than usual IRL lately.  I will be trying to contribute more as I can, of course.

You frequently say that you are rereading and analyzing, but if you have time to do that, couldn't you get some scumhunting on in 4 days? I get that you came in at short notice, probably, but nobody actually asked you to IC as far as I'm aware, and your content outside that has been flaky or general to say the least.

So why so little scumhunting, Shakerag?

Honestly my playstyle will shift from game to game.  Sometimes I'm a bit more aggressive and tunnel-y, other times I'm a bit more background and observing what's going on.  This game has been more the latter.  I'll also say that the play from most everyone in this game has been rather good, so I haven't seen as many things to really jump on.  But, yes, more activity and all that.


hector13:
I'm inclined to agree with you about your case on OSG, but I think I'm going to keep my vote on TolyK for now.  I may be up for an OSG lynch the next day.


OSG:

Shakerag & ICs:  What are the best type of scum hunting questions to ask?

You usually use questions after you have a vague idea about someone being scum. If you see a contradiction, ask them about it (and vote for them if you want a quicker response.) Anything of their posts that you think are suspicious, ask them about it. Don't ask about their role because that makes you look like scum.

Hector has gone back to some better scumhunting, so Unvote

For me, my top 2 picks are ATH and Hector. Not sure which one I'll end up voting for at the end of the day. We'll see.

Wait wait wait.  You were voting hector, then apparently found enough reason to unvote him, but then still list him as one of your top two scumpicks?  And you didn't switch your vote to your other top scumpick?  And as of now it looks like you still haven't voted for anyone?  Maybe I'm just not seeing your brilliance here, so could you explain what in the hell you're doing?

I don't know who your scum partner may be. I don't think it is NJW, but other than that, I think it could be anybody. I don't see anything particularly scummy from you except for your incessant demand that I vote NJW, which you stopped. I didn't have anything else, so I unvoted. Are you happy?

So just because he stopped his "incessant demand" he's suddenly not voteworthy anymore?  If you thought that behavior was scummy enough to vote him on, why is that cleared from his record now?

[NJW2000]

NJW2000 - Scummy because he keeps trying to push lynches on people (most recently hector13) by misconstruing their posts. It often seems like he's decided who to lynch and is now trying to find something to back that up rather than figuring out who to lynch based on the things he finds out.
Currently, I think NJW2000 is the best lynch, but we have a tied vote right now. I think that the scum are two out of {NJW, Tolyk, Shakerag} because everyone else seems to be more town. ATH is also a possibility, but I think it's more likely he's cop.

Care to say who else I tried to "push a lynch on"?

Oh, please don't anyone misconstrue me, I totes think we should all lynch Hector, not denying that I've been saying that for a while. But: TDS, Who else?

So, uh. What?

Aye, if I were scum I've drawn fairly significant attention to myself by attacking two townies in one day. If I were scum, why would I have to look at anyone else when you're the one in line to get lynched? If I were scum, having a townie get lynched would be fantastic for me. If I were scum, I would thus have no reason whatsoever to attack another player, my job would be done.

(Quote is taken a bit out of context, it's a reply to NJW about him "being focused on his theory hector is scum". Underline emphasis mine.)

Unfortunately, this cannot be an actual defense (unless you mean something else?).
Of course scum have to attack players, and the more the better, actually - they look more active, more towny, and they're on the offensive and thus don't need as much to defend themselves from. Plus, questioning can help decide who to look for power roles (remember - they have a rolecop), and potentially lynch power roles if they have a feeling about it.
Example: Let's say ATH and PlayerB (someone else) are scum, ATH is the rolecop (which seems likely to me ).
PlayerB was jailed and ATH didn't find him. Scum would prefer to find the jailkeeper and nightkill them, possibly with by ATH. Thus finding who it was is paramount.
Basically, scum need to "scumhunt" and multiple targets are also helpful. So what you said here isn't quite right, if you know what I'm saying.

If I were scum, why would I have to look at anyone else when you're the one in line to get lynched? If I were scum, having a townie get lynched would be fantastic for me. If I were scum, I would thus have no reason whatsoever to attack another player, my job would be done.

Oh, and as to your "look, I made it so you didn't get lynched by voting someone else instead so I can't be scum, because scum would let you get lynched" thing: could just be scum effort to appear town. And a completely free town-point, for extra scumhunting, if you manage to make sure town get lynched anyway. Yes, this "no it's not town it's just to look town" does get us into WIFOM or just useless unproveable motive dissection. Besides, I still have a coupla votes on me anyway, don't I? So I'm not taking this as an assurance you're town.

TolyK: Was my point not clear enough? Or are you saying something different? Or did you not read it? Because you seem to be repeating one of my points. I don't quite see why you needed to do that, except as an attempt to push attention onto Hec for some reason. Basically, why bring up something already brought up? Did you want an answer from Hec?

TBH, though it seems like TolyK's going to be lynched, I'm definitely keeping my vote on Hector, as I can't see a huge amount on him. Just saying this now because there isn't much time, ingame or where I am.

[hector13]

My wife's laptop chose a good time to crap out, I can't rreally point of t the things I want with my phone. God damn...

Opinions on things right now:

Don't like TDS' vote on Tolyk, I know reads change over the game but the bit he quoted had Tolyk as what appeared to be a strong town read.

NJW makes a good point that TDS suggests he's been pushing votes on people other than me, which I think is false. NJW is a tunneling machine

Tolyk also changing his vote from ATH on to a player who might be lynched in his place, even if it's the player I want lynched... I don't think he mentioned OSG as potential scum 'til right now. Not sure what to think about it. I'm probably not as bothered about this as the other things, but it's notable.


Shakerag is really bothering me though. He seems to be trying to come across as the genial veteran. I'm getting a vague sense he's trying to buddy me. Has said that he thinks ATH is town, but I don't know if he would likely try to throw suspicion on the "cop" (Megas asked earlier, still on the fence about it) that cleared him. Has voted Tolyk most of D2, so... Reasonable vote, probably.

Not all that comfortable with Megas voting Tolyk, that seemed that come out of nowhere, lack of elaboration materializing means this is probably the first overtly scummy thing he has done in the game.

On the potential Tolyk lynch: feels like it kinda came out of nowhere, Shakerag's vote being the only one  that makes sense right now. TDS and Megas scum team..? Wild thought, might be the case...

NJW still convinced I'm scum. Still wrong

This is a more muddled post than I'm used to making, and I know some things are poorly laid out (dat first paragraph ) but I don't want to spend ten minutes pissing about with it and accidentally delete everything. Sorry guys.

[TolyK]

... yeah, I missed your post. Not enough to make Hector scum though by itself, IMO.

PPE: Well, I know I'm town, not sure OST is, so... It makes sense?

[NJW2000]

Heh. Looks like I'll just have to focus on other things more if everyone else won't cooperate and lynch you. Bad luck on the CPU things, you sure you'll be able to message your nightkill action from your phone?

So.... any reasons for not lynching TolyK anyone can think of? Seeing as the day is drawing to a close? I think this would be a good thing to think about, just in case somebody sees something?

[TolyK]

I'd prefer not to die. But I might be biased.

You should totally lynch ATH tomorrow, I've outlined the reasons.

Not really sure what else to do. How much time is left?

[NJW2000]

Roughly an hour. Hour twenty.

[Shakerag]

TDS:

NJW2000 - Scummy because he keeps trying to push lynches on people (most recently hector13) by misconstruing their posts. It often seems like he's decided who to lynch and is now trying to find something to back that up rather than figuring out who to lynch based on the things he finds out.

I would be curious to see examples of this "misconstruing".


hector13:

Shakerag is really bothering me though. He seems to be trying to come across as the genial veteran. I'm getting a vague sense he's trying to buddy me. Has said that he thinks ATH is town, but I don't know if he would likely try to throw suspicion on the "cop" (Megas asked earlier, still on the fence about it) that cleared him. Has voted Tolyk most of D2, so... Reasonable vote, probably.

It's okay.  I bother lots of people.  You might be the first person who has called me "genial" though.
And you'd be the worst target to buddy if I were the buddying type.  You're not likely to respond favorably to a few tummyrubs.
As of right now, I still am inclined to think ATH is town and indeed the cop.  However I am not ruling out completely that he might be scum getting coached.  I am looking forward to his report tomorrow, assuming he's still around to give it.