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[hector13]

So you suspect me but you don't think I'm suspicious, though you're suspicious of me because I could lead the town to its death. And you're voting for NJW. Right.

Anyway, you've managed to pinpoint a post you found off, now you have to pinpoint what about the post is off.

[NJW2000]

Hector:

1. Roo voted for me, I posted saying he was a liar, then he said I wasn't scum and unvoted later. That struck me as odd so I wanted him to tell me about that. Why does that intrigue you?

It was merely an example of you going after as little investigation as possible: getting involved with a very suspiscious player, and only asking about yourself. Roo had a fair bit more on his plate with the copclaim, everybody was confused by him, and the main point was that you didn't do anything more than politely helpful after that.

2.While encouraging the inactives to post is good, directing most of your scumhunting that isn't going at the most suspiscious players at the least posting players is a rather good choice for minimising the chance of people actually talking to you one-on-one.
  Also 2: you seem to be twisting my words a little: by /s, and the fact that I said:
"Seriously? Do you think we should scumhunt too, or would that be a bit OTT? /s, completely useless bit, saying, "hey guys, let's post on what's happening""
you might have actually been able to tell that I thought you were giving a contentless and stupid remark. In fact, your statement that the only thing that had happened d1 was the copclaim saga shows just how ridiculous the idea of telling people to talk about it was: you've accused me of trying to hush it up when I suggested that we talk about something else.
  If people needed telling to talk about it, yet it's all that had happened and I tried to destroy discussion of it - well, this makes very little sense, reinforcing my belief that your post was fluff.

3.My main point was that you asked for questions rather than scumhunting.

4. Yes, well, easy target, as I said. ATH's play has been dodgy as hell. You also chose longterm correspondences for your non-roo-and-ath (non-dodgy) scumhunting, suggesting you are interested in doing less of it.

I note that you fail to bring up the questions I asked on the next page to ATH, one about the games he said he read, then a question about his thought process in claiming, which I then poke holes in halfway down page 16/post 232.

So I'm going to accuse you at this point of being scum, cherry-picking quotes to suit the case you're inventing.

Seeing as you've obviously read and paid a reasonable amount of attention to my post, this is a rather scummy thing to say, as I explicitly dismiss targeting ATH as going after the easy stuff: his reasoning is certainly somewhat flawed as the gambit failed massively, and it's obviously going to be easy to just pick away at his posts. So I acknowledge that you attack ATH (and roo): you just seem to do little else, apart from going after absent people.
   Why you would accuse me of being scum so innocously, in the middle of the post, I have no idea. I'd have bolded that, just so skimmers noted it, a rather important game element, wouldn't you say?

I didn't know Roo was town at that point though, did I? He was softclaiming something, not scumhunting and not answering questions. Does that sound like town play to you? If so, how?

My main point was just that you really went to town on an admittedly dodgy townie, even compiling a file named "on roo's insanity". This reinforces scum tendencies, though if you were town, you obviously didn't know he was. But fair enough he was fairly suspiscious. And you made sure to stay on his back then.

Glossing Over Roo Point (Same quote, I'm tired): Yeah, another example of you just attacking the easily attacked, but sure, it was something someone had to look into.

Enquiries point: Yeah, you stayed on the guy who needed to be helped to quote posts and had to field questions from most players. Greaat. And the FoS is another example of you failing to pursue someone: you FoS'd me then haven't mentioned your concerns about me trying to hush up the ATH thing... till now, when I attacked you.

Further, I did suggest to everyone that an extension would be useful. Given that Roo turned up town, if I were scum why wouldn't I just leave things as they were and risk more information being brought into play before the end of the day, potentially ruining that mislynch?

Well, we didn't have that much, so an extension was going to be suggested, and being the one to do it makes you look good easily. I see you've saved that as a townie point there. Also, would most mafia rather a town lynch on day1 rather than a mislynch? ICs and players, this would be good to know. So Why would a mislynch have helped you?

And as for what you're not doing, Hector, is really scumhunting anyone who's neither a) an easy and obvious target with dodgy play, nor b)Not actually there most of the time, as far as I can see. By all means, prove me wrong on this most important of questions with some quotes, if you can.
 

[hector13]

Quick post for the moment to address your final points, in case I don't get the opportunity to get to the rest of it tonight:

And as for what you're not doing, Hector, is really scumhunting anyone who's neither a) an easy and obvious target with dodgy play, nor b)Not actually there most of the time, as far as I can see. By all means, prove me wrong on this most important of questions with some quotes, if you can.

a) I was scumhunting ATH and Roo to solidify my reads on them. In case it has escaped your notice, I haven't exactly been convinced of ATH's cop claim since it happened, neither am I convinced he's scum. At this point in time, I think he's a nervous n00b who isn't sure what they're s'posed to be doing, and I don't like that because it's not going to help me figure out their alignment.

Roo was softclaiming, and I was trying to figure out if that meant he was scum trying to get us to lynch the cop or not.

How am I meant to figure these things out without scumhunting either player? Please enlighten me.

b) The inactive players. How are we going to get them more involved in the game? Asking them questions aka scumhunting. Why do you want me to stop asking them questions?

More to follow, hopefully.

[NJW2000]

a) I seem to be the only other one you're questioning: more skilled/present/conventional players like TolyK meggas have not got anything from you, really, and neither have I, much, except misinterpreting my worries about the roo affair. And as we are active, aggressively scumhunt and have not done anything to condemn us as dodgy gambiters, it seems like you're advoiding any tough conversations.

Tunneling is as scummy as not scumhunting, sometimes.


b)Again: you've misconstrued me. See above, basically, stop misconstruing me, it doesn't help your case. Have you every really attacked Meggas, me or TolyK? (And I don't mean now, I'm attacking you). Kina odd, advoiding anyone who could do some real damage from the smokescreen of absence and copclaiming.

[TheDarkStar]

Well TDS, you do seem to be pushing quite hard for us to trust that ATH is the cop. Why is that?

You vote for Roo here asking why Roo thinks ATH is scum, when claiming cop on D1 is not at all useful for town. One could argue this is scum protecting their fakeclaiming partner from pressure.

You get a little defensive here when NJW questions you over your inactivity, and then continue pressuring Roo over his "claim of cop", which he never actually did. He implied quite heavily that he had something to claim, but never actually went so far as to outright claim anything.

Here, your pressure on Roo continues, though you backtrack a little on Roo's claim, and ask him about softclaiming. Then you answered my question why you were voting Roo over ATH in the cop-claim nonsense, citing ATH claiming first as reason for voting Roo and if Roo was cop he'd vote for ATH, which is a little silly, since ATH could easily be scum trying to lure the cop into a counter-claim.

Then here you continue pushing ATH forward as a trustworthy dude, man. Acceptable logic, of course, but you don't appear to consider any other reason for ATH's survival beyond potential jailor, which might not even exist. Given that ATH has given us a result, which means he can't have been targeted by the potential jailor, what other reason could there be that he still lives?

ATH is giving off a town vibe to me and he's the only one claiming cop. There's still a chance that he's lying and that we only have a jailor, but scum generally don't draw attention to themselves Day 1.

I voted for roo because, while he might have been scum defending his ally, he was also acting like scum trying to push a lynch on someone.

Why mention the fact that roo never made an outright claim if it was implied heavily enough that multiple people asked him about it?

Roo would have voted for ATH if he (roo) was the cop but not if he (roo) was scum. If ATH got lynched and flipped cop, then roo would have been the next lynch; if ATH flipped scum, roo would have been confirmed as cop. Roo's hesitancy to vote for someone he apparently knew to be scum was the main reason that I voted for him.

It's possible that the scum just didn't kill, but that's unlikely and doesn't benefit them. Jailers are generally the only reason that nightkills don't happen in BMs. As to why ATH has an inspect result, there are three possibilities:

1. He's scum and got jailed but is lying. However, the jailor would know this and would say something about how ATH could not have received an inspected result.
2. He's scum and the jailor targeted someone else (who was attacked or who was scum). This is possible if there's no cop.
3. He's town and the jailor targeted someone else (who was attacked or who was scum). This is also possible. While the scum could have targeted ATH, they probably chose someone else to kill to try to not pick someone who was immune for the night.

RE: Everyone: stop with roleclaim jokes.

I'm a jailor cop rolecop mafia town.

PPE: NJW2000, how is hector "avoiding tough conversations"? How is hector supposed to not be scum if he's scummy for not scumhunting and for scumhunting at the same time? You're also saying that he's tunneling while conducting scumhunting against multiple other players (you, ATH, and formerly roo). Explain?

[hector13]

Spoiler: WALL (click to show/hide)

Hector:

1. Roo voted for me, I posted saying he was a liar, then he said I wasn't scum and unvoted later. That struck me as odd so I wanted him to tell me about that. Why does that intrigue you?

It was merely an example of you going after as little investigation as possible: getting involved with a very suspiscious player, and only asking about yourself. Roo had a fair bit more on his plate with the copclaim, everybody was confused by him, and the main point was that you didn't do anything more than politely helpful after that.

Roo voted for me and then after one post said I wasn't scum. That struck me as tremendously suspicious, so I asked him about it. If he had done the same thing after voting you or anyone else, I would've done the same thing. Why is this an issue to ask someone why they voted then unvoted almost immediately afterward?

Seeing as you're accusing me of trying to do "as little investigation as possible", I would like you to give me an example of you pressing any other player for an extended period, before you started questioning me just now, and see if that doesn't apply to you.

Then apply it to the likes of TDS and 4mask.

2.While encouraging the inactives to post is good, directing most of your scumhunting that isn't going at the most suspiscious players at the least posting players is a rather good choice for minimising the chance of people actually talking to you one-on-one.

How is it minimising the chance someone speaks to me directly? Minimising it would be not posting at all because that way I'm not saying anything people can ask me about. How is it my fault no-one is asking me questions directly? How does this make me scum?

  Also 2: you seem to be twisting my words a little: by /s, and the fact that I said:
"Seriously? Do you think we should scumhunt too, or would that be a bit OTT? /s, completely useless bit, saying, "hey guys, let's post on what's happening""
you might have actually been able to tell that I thought you were giving a contentless and stupid remark. In fact, your statement that the only thing that had happened d1 was the copclaim saga shows just how ridiculous the idea of telling people to talk about it was: you've accused me of trying to hush it up when I suggested that we talk about something else.

I was not able to tell that. How is it contentless and stupid to ask people about the only significant thing that's happened in the game? (at that point, obviously) There were a lot of people not taking part in any great detail there, and that bothered me. Asking their opinion at least makes them say something that we can analyse, even if it's just word-choice or whether or not they add any new opinions to the game.

You wanted people to discuss something else, which in itself isn't a bad thing, but it risks putting the game back into RQS, which is a bit useless. Further, you didn't actually offer something else to discuss, whether it was a question or a particular quote from someone, so a fair - though obviously this does not mean it is a correct one - conclusion to draw is that you don't want people to pay attention to the cop-claim.

I may be "twisting your words" as you call it, but that's what you're doing to me. I'm not actively avoiding people asking me questions, I am in fact doing the opposite: I want people to ask me questions to generate some bloody content

  If people needed telling to talk about it, yet it's all that had happened and I tried to destroy discussion of it - well, this makes very little sense, reinforcing my belief that your post was fluff.

I don't understand this bit. What do you mean?

3.My main point was that you asked for questions rather than scumhunting.

So I'm being viewed with suspicion for asking other people to not only scumhunt, but scumhunt me? Is that not a bit... foolish, if I were scum?

4. Yes, well, easy target, as I said. ATH's play has been dodgy as hell. You also chose longterm correspondences for your non-roo-and-ath (non-dodgy) scumhunting, suggesting you are interested in doing less of it.

I am actually interested in getting people who haven't posted to actually post. No-one else seems to be interested in doing it. If that makes me look like scum, so be it, I don't care. We won't be able to say someone is scum from scumhunting if we don't have a read on all the other players, will we?

I note that you fail to bring up the questions I asked on the next page to ATH, one about the games he said he read, then a question about his thought process in claiming, which I then poke holes in halfway down page 16/post 232.

So I'm going to accuse you at this point of being scum, cherry-picking quotes to suit the case you're inventing.

Seeing as you've obviously read and paid a reasonable amount of attention to my post, this is a rather scummy thing to say, as I explicitly dismiss targeting ATH as going after the easy stuff: his reasoning is certainly somewhat flawed as the gambit failed massively, and it's obviously going to be easy to just pick away at his posts. So I acknowledge that you attack ATH (and roo): you just seem to do little else, apart from going after absent people.
   Why you would accuse me of being scum so innocously, in the middle of the post, I have no idea. I'd have bolded that, just so skimmers noted it, a rather important game element, wouldn't you say?

I don't care what other people think about me accusing you of being scum. I care about what you think about it.

I didn't know Roo was town at that point though, did I? He was softclaiming something, not scumhunting and not answering questions. Does that sound like town play to you? If so, how?

My main point was just that you really went to town on an admittedly dodgy townie, even compiling a file named "on roo's insanity". This reinforces scum tendencies, though if you were town, you obviously didn't know he was. But fair enough he was fairly suspiscious. And you made sure to stay on his back then.

This bit I want you to read because it's a really important thing to consider when scumhunting, in my opinion.

In this bit you seem to entertain the possibility that I'm not scum, does it have any bearing on your read on me?

I ask because you seem to be looking past what I'm saying and trying to find things that make me look like scum, and dismissing things that make me look like town. This is called confirmation bias: you already think of someone as a particular alignment, so ignore anything that conflicts with that.

Remember, scumhunting is important to find scum, but also important to find town too!

Glossing Over Roo Point (Same quote, I'm tired): Yeah, another example of you just attacking the easily attacked, but sure, it was something someone had to look into.

I want you to think about this one: was Roo easily attacked at that point, or was I trying to get a better read on him? Falls in the same thing as what I said above.

Enquiries point: Yeah, you stayed on the guy who needed to be helped to quote posts and had to field questions from most players. Greaat. And the FoS is another example of you failing to pursue someone: you FoS'd me then haven't mentioned your concerns about me trying to hush up the ATH thing... till now, when I attacked you.

Okay, I'll accept that I didn't press you on the FoS, but that wasn't really me trying to say "I think you're scum" so much as saying "I want to see how you react to someone saying they think you're suspicious".

I was trying to get better reads on Roo and ATH, and trying to get other people involved in the game, as I keep saying.

At that point you didn't strike me as particularly scummy, just... not particularly townie either. I was trying to encourage you to post more through pressure of a potential vote.

Further, I did suggest to everyone that an extension would be useful. Given that Roo turned up town, if I were scum why wouldn't I just leave things as they were and risk more information being brought into play before the end of the day, potentially ruining that mislynch?

Well, we didn't have that much, so an extension was going to be suggested, and being the one to do it makes you look good easily. I see you've saved that as a townie point there. Also, would most mafia rather a town lynch on day1 rather than a mislynch? ICs and players, this would be good to know. So Why would a mislynch have helped you?

Acceptable logic about the extension. But I still would like you to consider how having an extra two days for people to discuss the cop-claim stuff and try to encourage the lurkers to post would be beneficial to scum, and whether or not that the extra town-cred they would get from asking for an extension would outweigh the risk of the extra content generated.

A mislynch is when a townie gets lynched. Or at least that's what I would call it... that's what I meant, apologies for the confusion.

a) I seem to be the only other one you're questioning: more skilled/present/conventional players like TolyK meggas have not got anything from you, really, and neither have I, much, except misinterpreting my worries about the roo affair. And as we are active, aggressively scumhunt and have not done anything to condemn us as dodgy gambiters, it seems like you're advoiding any tough conversations.

Tunneling is as scummy as not scumhunting, sometimes.

I have trouble accepting you believe this. I may not be scumhunting other people, but I am encouraging other people to scumhunt me. I have been actively trying to get ATH to figure why he thinks I'm suspicious, because otherwise he's not going to be able to get a good read on me, which is not helpful. I asked Tolyk if they had questions for me at one point, though they didn't respond.

ATH specifically has said they think I'm suspicious, but nobody is going to back them in a vote if they can't find evidence to support those suspicions are they?

I would like to point out that you appear to be tunneling me right now, so... right back at you?

b)Again: you've misconstrued me. See above, basically, stop misconstruing me, it doesn't help your case. Have you every really attacked Meggas, me or TolyK? (And I don't mean now, I'm attacking you). Kina odd, advoiding anyone who could do some real damage from the smokescreen of absence and copclaiming.

It's another conclusion that I can draw from you scumreading me asking questions to the other players. Again, not necessary the correct one, but it's difficult for me to accept scumhunting, even lurkers, as being a scumtell.

Do I have to attack every player to appear as town? Can I not rely on the other townies to pressure the players I'm not pressing? We're meant to be a team, albeit a team in which the other members don't know who else is on it...

I want you to consider everything I've said in your attacks from two perspectives:

a) This person is scum. How does what they are saying further the scums' objective of killing everyone else off?

b) This person is town. How does what they are saying further the towns' objective of catching the scum?

I accept you think I'm scum at the moment, but as I've said, I think that's clouding your ability to consider that I'm town. We're generating content though, so keep it up.

PPE: will read what TDS just said, may not respond this evening.

[hector13]

Never mind

Someone who quotes what I said so I don't have to look for the post they're responding too! *not looking at NJW*

ATH is giving off a town vibe to me and he's the only one claiming cop. There's still a chance that he's lying and that we only have a jailor, but scum generally don't draw attention to themselves Day 1.

I voted for roo because, while he might have been scum defending his ally, he was also acting like scum trying to push a lynch on someone.

But Roo said we should ignore ATH:

unvote this guy is a troll and I'm wasting my time with them.

That doesn't sound like he's trying to push a lynch on someone.

Indeed, he votes for me later than more or less immediately unvotes after I call him out on it. What makes you say he was trying to push votes on people?

Why mention the fact that roo never made an outright claim if it was implied heavily enough that multiple people asked him about it?

It was more that you assumed he was claiming cop when there was no evidence exactly what he was claiming. What made you think he was trying to claim cop specifically?

Roo would have voted for ATH if he (roo) was the cop but not if he (roo) was scum. If ATH got lynched and flipped cop, then roo would have been the next lynch; if ATH flipped scum, roo would have been confirmed as cop. Roo's hesitancy to vote for someone he apparently knew to be scum was the main reason that I voted for him.

I don't agree with your logic regarding Roo being cop, having pointed out that ATH could easily be scum trying to make the cop counter-claim in order to get rid of a power role on D1. Can you point out where Roo "appeared to know ATH is scum"?

It's possible that the scum just didn't kill, but that's unlikely and doesn't benefit them. Jailers are generally the only reason that nightkills don't happen in BMs. As to why ATH has an inspect result, there are three possibilities:

1. He's scum and got jailed but is lying. However, the jailor would know this and would say something about how ATH could not have received an inspected result.
2. He's scum and the jailor targeted someone else (who was attacked or who was scum). This is possible if there's no cop.
3. He's town and the jailor targeted someone else (who was attacked or who was scum). This is also possible. While the scum could have targeted ATH, they probably chose someone else to kill to try to not pick someone who was immune for the night.

1. I'm not sure why the jailor would wand to do that. Again, ATH could be trying to out our power roles.

2+3. Fair logic, I s'pose. Can't really poke holes in it... however, I would like to ask you why you think the jailor wouldn't target ATH during the night (assuming there is one) if he claimed cop? If he's cop he won't get a result, but he won't be killed either, but if he's scum he won't get a role investigation result/kill against the town, either.

[NJW2000]

Hector

Seeing as you're accusing me of trying to do "as little investigation as possible", I would like you to give me an example of you pressing any other player for an extended period, before you started questioning me just now, and see if that doesn't apply to you.

Then apply it to the likes of TDS and 4mask.

Well, I did apply some questioning to you, though I haven't been able to be as active, and ultimately am not as strong and experienced, or involved, a player. The fact that I find this as hard as you do, and no more, is very strange, as you are the most active player. Again, I've asked you if you can give me an example of you attacking someone who wasn't either very dodgy or has made less than 0.6% of the posts. But anyway,

Looking back for an omgus on roo (this is why we need to be clear ) I realise that people may still want the hints ATH dropped to be shown. Why and to what extent is this a priotiry for you, hector13

And down a bit from there I follow it up - though I've mentioned having trouble getting reads on the less entagled players on d1.

It's another conclusion that I can draw from you scumreading me asking questions to the other players. Again, not necessary the correct one, but it's difficult for me to accept scumhunting, even lurkers, as being a scumtell.

Do I have to attack every player to appear as town? Can I not rely on the other townies to pressure the players I'm not pressing? We're meant to be a team, albeit a team in which the other members don't know who else is on it...

My main driving point is that you have never attacked team members that weren't cryptic, absent or wildly gambitting and roleclaiming. Despite being pretty much the most active. In fact, players like TolyK and Meggas (and you) are craftier, and thus need attention from more experienced players less caught up in gambits. Like you. I'm asking why you've shied away from the more difficult job of scumhunting the stronger active players, and you haven't given me a great answer.

Spoiler: possibly less important bits, answers to questions, etc. (click to show/hide)

Roo voted for me and then after one post said I wasn't scum. That struck me as tremendously suspicious, so I asked him about it. If he had done the same thing after voting you or anyone else, I would've done the same thing. Why is this an issue to ask someone why they voted then unvoted almost immediately afterward?

Yes, kindly stop telling me why roo looked scummy, we all saw. My MAIN POINT is that you always sem to go after inactives or easy tagets. I'm repeating myself a lot here.

Then apply it to the likes of TDS and 4mask.

They aren't here, so they're not gonna be posting fully on everyone. You are pretty much one of the most active. Bad comparison.

How is it minimising the chance someone speaks to me directly? Minimising it would be not posting at all because that way I'm not saying anything people can ask me about. How is it my fault no-one is asking me questions directly? How does this make me scum?

Yes, I get the point that the non-posters look scummy. However, being the most active but only attacking those under the spotlight or those that aren't really here is a way to get a high postcount without looking suspiscious. You've been minimising the chance of many long exchanges where you weren't interrogating someone who was under massive general suspiscion

How is it contentless and stupid to ask people about the only significant thing that's happened in the game? (at that point, obviously)

It's stupid because there is nothing else they're going to tal about. It's like a member of the senate (not from US, so this metaphor may be screwy) saying, once someone has brought up the financial crisis, "hey, we should talk about the economy!". It's obvious, it's the thing pepole will do anyway, at very best you're just saying, "hey, guys, post!". Which I accept that you've been doing a lot.

Asking their opinion at least makes them say something that we can analyse, even if it's just word-choice or whether or not they add any new opinions to the game.

You wanted people to discuss something else, which in itself isn't a bad thing, but it risks putting the game back into RQS, which is a bit useless.

Yeah, you've been the guy shouting, "hey, we need to POST MOAR, guys!" I get that. And while more posts is good for town, being the guys houting that is a fun way for scum to look active and town without, you know, actually saying anything or giving much for analysis themselves.

I am actually interested in getting people who haven't posted to actually post. No-one else seems to be interested in doing it. If that makes me look like scum, so be it, I don't care. We won't be able to say someone is scum from scumhunting if we don't have a read on all the other players, will we?

Yeah, good job, you've been that "let's post guy", as I may have mentioned before. I was really talking about you focussing on these two when not on ATH and roo: the people who've given the least content, and will ask for the least back of you (because they don't actually post that much).

I don't care what other people think about me accusing you of being scum. I care about what you think about it.

Fair 'nuff, I guess. I just thought it was a weirdly small - well, larger than an FoS, really? I found it confusing, especially as you only said it in one of your points. A historian, for example, presents any supre-major conclusions (like me being scum) at the introduction and conclusion of his piece. But maybe that's not quite what you meant by "I'll accuse you", I'm unsure, did you just mean pressure-accusation?

This bit I want you to read because it's a really important thing to consider when scumhunting, in my opinion.

In this bit you seem to entertain the possibility that I'm not scum, does it have any bearing on your read on me?

I ask because you seem to be looking past what I'm saying and trying to find things that make me look like scum, and dismissing things that make me look like town. This is called confirmation bias: you already think of someone as a particular alignment, so ignore anything that conflicts with that.

Remember, scumhunting is important to find scum, but also important to find town too!

This is probably a large flaw in my playstyle, yes. I do try not to be biased, though. And keep in mind - I'm not going to accuse you of being town, you're going to see what I think is scummiest about you when I scumhunt you, not random bits of ok town play. But I'll keep this in mind - the simple fact that you said "are you considering what's going on if I'm not scum" probably had too large an impact on me for my play to be incredible. I'm not going to stop pressing you just because of that, though.

I don't understand this bit. What do you mean?

      If people needed telling to talk about it, yet it's all that had happened and I tried to destroy discussion of it - well, this makes very little sense, reinforcing my belief that your post was fluff.

You claimed that the cop saga was the only thing to have happened, yet you also asked people to post on it. If it's all that happened, what else are they going to post on???

I want you to think about this one: was Roo easily attacked at that point, or was I trying to get a better read on him? Falls in the same thing as what I said above.

Both, of course - we have to scumhunt dodgy people, I'm aware of that, I won't reiterate my problems with your choices of who, as pretty much the most active player, to go after.

Okay, I'll accept that I didn't press you on the FoS, but that wasn't really me trying to say "I think you're scum" so much as saying "I want to see how you react to someone saying they think you're suspicious".

I was trying to get better reads on Roo and ATH, and trying to get other people involved in the game, as I keep saying.

At that point you didn't strike me as particularly scummy, just... not particularly townie either. I was trying to encourage you to post more through pressure of a potential vote.

Fair enough, I, among others, could be posting more, though I have limited time.

Acceptable logic about the extension. But I still would like you to consider how having an extra two days for people to discuss the cop-claim stuff and try to encourage the lurkers to post would be beneficial to scum, and whether or not that the extra town-cred they would get from asking for an extension would outweigh the risk of the extra content generated.

I was so worried about the state of play I checked through who was online and hadn't asked to extend, as a scumtell. Can't speak for anyone else, though.

A mislynch is when a townie gets lynched. Or at least that's what I would call it... that's what I meant, apologies for the confusion.

Yeah, I probably got this one wrong, sorry for muddying the waters.

I have trouble accepting you believe this. I may not be scumhunting other people, but I am encouraging other people to scumhunt me. I have been actively trying to get ATH to figure why he thinks I'm suspicious, because otherwise he's not going to be able to get a good read on me, which is not helpful. I asked Tolyk if they had questions for me at one point, though they didn't respond.

ATH specifically has said they think I'm suspicious, but nobody is going to back them in a vote if they can't find evidence to support those suspicions are they?

I would like to point out that you appear to be tunneling me right now, so... right back at you?

You're asking for questions, yes, though due to the limited amount of activity possible, you'll only generate minimal content even if someone does question you.
Yes, you're attacking ATH over his non-backed-up suspiscions. It would look weird if you didn't, TBH, as you've been attacking him a lot. Even a noob like me wouldn't "unfortunately forget" to ask for a single reason for an accusation if they were playing scum. I admit you can throw examples of town-like behaviour at me, yes.

And by tunneling, this was a poor choice of words. Yes, I'm investing most of my time going after you now, especially as you reply so much, and answer all my questions and respond with ones of your own, but you've been one of the most active and for now are mainly pressing ATH and the inactives. And me, but I kinda forced you to respond to me. But fair enough, I'll look at the game more when I get the time.




ALL QUOTES FROM HECTOR13, GENERALLY THE POST QUOTED AT THE TOP OF THIS ONE.

Basically Hector, how come no real attacks have come from you on me, Meggas or TolyK? Who happen to be the active and not too odd players? Or can you show me a real one?

[NJW2000]

PPE: NJW2000, how is hector "avoiding tough conversations"? How is hector supposed to not be scum if he's scummy for not scumhunting and for scumhunting at the same time? You're also saying that he's tunneling while conducting scumhunting against multiple other players (you, ATH, and formerly roo). Explain?

Poor choice of words on my part, TDS, I just meant that he focuses on only inactives and suspiscious guys, which ends up with him only attacking people like roo and ATH while he waits for people like you - glad to see you have time to post more now, I suspect we need the experience - and 4Mask to post.

Of course he's scumhunting me, I didn't make it easy for him not to, but he's mainly doing that now that I've attacked him, or when I made a remark that left me very vulnerable to accusations of hushing.

I think he's scummy for a most active player because of his choice of scumhunting. None of the more active, strong, town-seeming players - the real threats, hardest to get much material for a read on without real interrogation. And why am I not attacking those players? Well, I am - I view him as one of them.

Also TDS: why is ATH giving you a town vibe exactly? Randomly trusting somebody is even odder than random unexplained suspiscion, in my book.

[hector13]

I'm asking why you've shied away from the more difficult job of scumhunting the stronger active players, and you haven't given me a great answer.

I can't help it if you don't like my answer. I shall repeat: I wanted a better read on the person claiming cop, and the only other person who took great issue with that claim. I also wanted the less active players to be more active. I had null reads on you, Megas and Tolyk, which didn't bother me as much as having no read on TDS and 4mask, and wanting to figure out if Roo or ATH was the cop. I did ask a question about a potential scumslip from Tomasque at the end of the day.

Please don't keep asking me the same question. The answer won't change the nth time you tell me you don't accept it.

This is also why I'm not looking for me pressing you, Megas or Tolyk, because it hasn't actually happened beyond asking you a few questions each, if that. I'm prioritising sollidifying reads. If you think that makes me scum, fair enough. You may need more in order to get people to follow you on that, though.

how come no real attacks have come from you on me, Meggas or TolyK? Who happen to be the active and not too odd players?

Also, you more or less answered your own question there.

Also also, accusing you of being scum was more of a pressure thing.

Megas, Tolyk, Tomasque, 4mask. Who is your top scum-read, and why? Who is your top town read, and why?

[NJW2000]

Fair 'nuff, I'll scumhunt others if I have much more time today.

Hector13, in case I forget. I think we know why by now.

[hector13]

Would you summarise it for us, anyway? Just so it's all in one place.

[NJW2000]

Sure.


Hector13, because while he is one of the most active, if not the most active players, the only posts of his that have really attacked someone have been against dodgy players/plays like roo and ATH, or people who haven't actually been here much. The rest of his posts, and most exchanges with me, TolyK, Tomasque and Meggas, the more active and less easily suspected players, who nonetheless are a big potential threat, have been desultory scumhunting at best, or just chatter or cries of "lets talk more".

tl;dr: Hector talked a lot, but never really attacked anyone but the very vulnerable like Roo and ATH or the absent (4Mask and TDS), thus being the most active without involving himself in potentially exposing situations.

In short, what he is doing (if he's scum) could be called the "I'm the most active" gambit.



My vote on Hector13 does feel a bit weird next to ATH's somewhat "psychic" accusation, tbh. But if that's what it takes to lynch him... I'll take the chance that ATH isn't scum and Hector is.

[hector13]

Okay, thanks.

Hector13, because while he is one of the most active, if not the most active players, the only posts of his that have really attacked someone have been against dodgy players/plays like roo and ATH, or people who haven't actually been here much. The rest of his posts, and most exchanges with me, TolyK, Tomasque and Meggas, the more active and less easily suspected players, who nonetheless are a big potential threat, have been desultory scumhunting at best, or just chatter or cries of "lets talk more".

tl;dr: Hector talked a lot, but never really attacked anyone but the very vulnerable like Roo and ATH or the absent (4Mask and TDS), thus being the most active without involving himself in potentially exposing situations.

In short, what he is doing (if he's scum) could be called the "I'm the most active" gambit.

My vote on Hector13 does feel a bit weird next to ATH's somewhat "psychic" accusation, tbh. But if that's what it takes to lynch him... I'll take the chance that ATH isn't scum and Hector is.

From this it seems you're voting me because I'm the most active and I'm scumhunting, I'm just not scumhunting the right players.

You are also the one saying I'm the most active player, so... how is that a gambit on my part? Activity is not indicative of alignment, so I'm thinking you're indulging in the "this player is acting so town he must be scum" fallacy.

Equally so you seem to have completely glossed over TDS' chainsaw defense of me when he voted you. What do you think of that? If you think I'm scum, is TDS my scum partner?

[NJW2000]

Chainsaw defence? The bit where he voted for me? Erm, I did reply to that: he basically told me he thought my argument made no sense.

I tried to put it in clearer terms.

And again, the WIFOM "so town he must be scum" factors in my thinking a bit - it means that some scumtells/towntells like posting a lot/not posting are less important when the scum may actually have a plan.

Friends over, probs won't be able to post more, especially not get any good reads, till tommorrow.