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[Bookthras]

Dariush:

Book: that is not such a huge jump as you paint it. The explanation is above. And I'd say that no more than the number of scum that physically exist are voting for ZU right now.

The explanation is bullshit. Your answer to my first question is bullshit, and you failed to answer the second one (who are they?). I still don't believe your vote on Zombie is sincere, I think you're either bussing him or clinching a mislynch.

You want proof it's bulshit? Here:

And I wasn't aware about such an overwhelming majority on ZU at the time.

There's no way you didn't realize he had that majority. Only a handful of posts before your vote, you see Hapah's description of the tie, and his tie breaking vote. You saw Zombie's "NOOOOO" reaction so you knew the context. This "I didn't know, therefore it's not a bandwagon" is a clear lie.


Hapah:

First: Valid or not, shouldn't those concerns be raised in a PM? I mean, even if you are upset about it, you don't gain anything by shaming the mod in the thread.
Second: Yes the votecount needs to be corrected, but still, no need to be so hostile about it.

Thank you for answering the questions that were not addressed to you, and failing to answer the ones that were. Please clarify your vote, and explain why you didn't correct it when you saw your messed up quotes. Please name your top three scumpicks, with reasons, and cast a vote.

[zombie urist]

Sorry. When I said answers, I included how they responded with the actual content of the response. Of course the answer to a "are you scum" question is no but I really don't think how they answer can do anything but maybe reveal a little more meta. Also its extremely difficult to read emotions through the internet.

I also wouldn't really qualify the second example as a reaction test or a reaction. I would say its a scumslip.

Based on Toaster's argument, I will, however, amend my statement and say that reaction tests are useful in real life mafia, but not so much in forum mafia.

Also

pre·sump·tu·ous
   [pri-zuhmp-choo-uhs]
adjective
1. full of, characterized by, or showing presumption  or readiness to presume  in conduct or thought.

disagrees with

Characterized by presumption in opinion or behaviour; unduly confident or bold; arrogant, forward, impertinent, overweening. Also: usurping.

Definition of presumption:

The taking upon oneself of more than is warranted by one's ability, position, right, etc.; forward or overconfident conduct or opinion; arrogance, effrontery, pride; an act, instance, or state of presumption, arrogance, or overconfidence.

I don't have time to throughly go through your post, but I do notice that you've missed some part of mine, most notably the part on Bookthras calling you out on lurking.

[Hapah]

Sorry for the delay, priority client request.

Book:

What the fuck is this? Do you seriously think your unvote should be considered? If not, given you saw the post, why didn't you correctly post your unvote outside quotes? You are still voting Zombie. Do you want to be? If so why? If not, why haven't you unvoted him? and where will you place your vote? Day ends tonight, merely "unvoting" is cowardly: name your top scum pick and vote them!

In order: A quote error, no, I didn't put 2 and 2 together that my quote fuckup nulls out my vote, and the end of this post for the rest. Namely, the part where I said:

I'll see about getting a vote up with lunch, I'd like it to actually mean something instead of voting for the sake of voting.

It's coming, I'm at work, and work is not kind.

Hapah:

First: Valid or not, shouldn't those concerns be raised in a PM? I mean, even if you are upset about it, you don't gain anything by shaming the mod in the thread.
Second: Yes the votecount needs to be corrected, but still, no need to be so hostile about it.

Thank you for answering the questions that were not addressed to you, and failing to answer the ones that were. Please clarify your vote, and explain why you didn't correct it when you saw your messed up quotes. Please name your top three scumpicks, with reasons, and cast a vote.

I didn't answer anything, I just stated that the game thread was perhaps not the best place to air your grievances. And I stated in the post, there was more coming, but I wanted to get that out first. And geez, man. I know Mafia is Serious Business, but I think you could get Wuba to add Vigi to your role if you told him you wanted to pull the stick out of your ass and use it to murder people.

I'll give you my reads on everyone below. To preempt the predictable reply; yes I know they're light on content, yes I know I only have two suspects instead of the three, and yes I know I haven't been pressing or questioning my suspects at all. Alright? I know. Sorry that's all I've got, there was a lot of followup work to this project that I wasn't expecting. Deliverables are due COB Friday so schedule should relax after that.

Back to work!

Think0028 - Replace
Deathsword - Replace
IronyOwl - I like the few posts I've seen. Leaning town
pengo009 - I don't like the "joke" jab at IO, and I don't like that his suspicion post was "The hell is this shit ZU -_______-". There weren't any real suspicions or reasons in there, which struck me as a little odd. Leaning scum.
Bookthras - Leaning town.
Urist Imiknorris - Replace
Tiruin - Leaning town, but I'm not gonna lie, I have a hard time parsing some of those posts.
Dariush - I was originally fairly certain that he was scum because Shake couldn't give me a straight answer. I thought I'd managed to snag Shake asking a question to his scumbuddy, and that's why Shake couldn't provide a straight answer even if I badgered the hell out of him. Something about him still seems a little off (with your recents posts directed at him underlining that), but I'm not as confident as I was before. Leaning scum.
TolyK - Pulling some A+ quality lurking. No read.
Toaster - The back-and-forth with ZU seems a little odd, but that's it. Neutral.
Shakerag - I buy the 3rd party claim. He is still a liability, but no more so than a townie with low activity, I think.
Jim Groovester - Too quiet. Probably just busy, lord knows I've been.
zombie urist - Probably town.

[Bookthras]

And geez, man. I know Mafia is Serious Business, but I think you could get Wuba to add Vigi to your role if you told him you wanted to pull the stick out of your ass and use it to murder people.

Heheh. Yeah, fair enough. Some times to get results you have to yell at people, but I try not to make a habit of it. You and Dariush just caught the tail end of the rage directed at wuba for his voting shenanigans.

If you think Zombie is town, what do you make of those voting him? Whose argument seems more specious to you? Other than Dariush, does anyone on that wagon strike you as being there to secure an easy mislynch?

[IronyOwl]

Dariush:

I consider what Tolyk did scummy because he was pretty vocal that everything he said was 'just a guess', but then he directly and strongly contradicted his own words.

Where did he "directly and strongly" say the opposite of "it's just a guess?"

...Are you even reading the thread? Or are you just repeating the same questions over and over to imitate activity? Reply #173, second to last paragraph. I don't even want to bother with quotes, since you'll repeat the same question anyway.

Lazy as balls.

Pengo, you, me, Shake are rather inexperienced imo (compared to, say, Toaster, Think), though I probably should've included Deathsword. And Dariush because people tend to not like him for his character . I'm included among them because I realize I'm pretty crappy at (internet) mafia, since I like to think logically rather than analyze posts, and tend to be told "y u no scumhunt". And I don't like to put my vote in most places. I'm trying to work on this, of course, but that's the answers to your questions.

Now that I've done your work for you, I see nowhere in here where he's "directly and strongly" saying the opposite of "it's just a guess." In fact, his "imo" in there seems to confirm that he's not particularly adamant about these assertions.

So, this is bullshit and you won't explain why it's not bullshit. What do we call people who spew baseless bullshit, Dariush?

Accusation of being a lynch candidate. It is scummy for exactly the same reason describing someone as scum, but not voting them (or addressing them, for that matter) is.

I don't get it. How is asserting that someone's likely to get themselves lynched but not doing anything about it equivalent to stating that someone's probably scum and doing the same? What are they supposed to do about it?

For starters, his premise is wrong. I don't know where he got his information from, but I know that neither me, Shake nor Tiruin didn't get lynched on D1 for a pretty long time (for me it's around a year, minus RL5 where the town had a major case of idiotfuckassititis). He didn't support his opinions with any quotes, links or anything. And that is scummy, Johnny.

How's that scummy and not just wrong or out of date? You really wanted him to dig through recent games to see who'd been both lynched D1 recently and was in this game?


Toaster:

Irony:  Should Shakerag be lynched, then?  If so, are you saying that barely-part-of-the-game Shakerag is a bigger threat than dodgy ZombieU?  How sure are you ZombieU is scum?

I don't know. I guess I'm leaning towards not, especially since, strictly speaking, Shak doesn't have any incentive to help the scumteam win. I still say he's been anti-town, though, what with his "Four people voting me? I'm not scum, they're scum! That's why I've got votes on me, it's a conspiracy!!"

I'm less sure of ZU now than I was. His dodginess is starting to reach a consistency where I'm really less sure that he's nervous, dodgy scum than that he just doesn't know what the fuck is going on most of the time. I don't know if English isn't his primary language or his reading comprehension is crap or what, but he's moving out of "I don't want to answer that honestly because it might incriminate me" and into "I see a few keywords so I'm going to infer a meaning from context."

By the way, who are your current suspicions? Are you comfortable sitting on your penngo vote?


Shakerag:

Interesting. I think I believe Shakerag, though his claim and playstyle have both made it pretty clear that he's a liability regardless.

How?  I know survivors can be a liability to the town (or any other alignment, for that matter, I suppose) come end game, but I'm not a survivor.  I don't win with anyone else, and I'm not planning on sticking around to the end game.  ...  Err, hold that last thought; I just thought of something I need to ask webadict.

See response to Toaster. Your scumpicks were entirely and exclusively people voting you, which I feel moves from "self-interested" to "maliciously defensive." I'll agree that your wincon doesn't seem especially anti-town, however.


Hapah:

First: Valid or not, shouldn't those concerns be raised in a PM? I mean, even if you are upset about it, you don't gain anything by shaming the mod in the thread.

Second: Yes the votecount needs to be corrected, but still, no need to be so hostile about it.

Dar: I don't think he missed it, he just didn't count it because of the rule thingy he gave. I don't think the thread is the right place for this.

I think voting syntax and mod accountability are threadworthy issues. I also agree that Book and Dariush are being a bit hostile about it, but that's how Dariush rolls, I don't think Book means anything by it, and wuba's not in much of a position to complain about assholes.


zombie urist:

IO: If that doesn't answer your question, then I probably misunderstood it and you should probably clarify it before we start going in circles again. I was never certain that was his plan. I never said that "doing Plan X would be a simple way to mislynch someone" implied. "thus he was trying to do Plan X." My line of thought went from "He looks like he is doing X" + "Doing X is scummy" -> "He is scummy"

Here, I will draw you a fucking picture.


Once upon a time there was a zombie that wanted to live. As part of this wanting to live, he went into elaborate detail regarding what makes good and bad RVS questions.

He also mentioned that regular scumhunting questions were different than RVS questions.


A passing owl noted that while he had gone into quite a bit of detail regarding what made RVS questions good, the only thing he said about regular scumhunting questions was that they were "different" from RVS ones! Curious at this disparity, the owl asked the zombie about non-RVS questions.

The zombie once again answered only that they were "different."


The owl is now suspicious and pissed off, and wants to know what about that question sounded like the zombie should parrot exactly what he already said earlier.

[zombie urist]

I've said they are different because RVS is meant primarily to raise discussion and scumhunting is to determine alignment. This is why they're different. I've said this before.

[Hapah]

If you think Zombie is town, what do you make of those voting him? Whose argument seems more specious to you? Other than Dariush, does anyone on that wagon strike you as being there to secure an easy mislynch?

Shake's voting to save his own skin, but I can't exactly fault him for it, I'd do the same. Thoughts on the rest below. And what's specious?

I don't think anyone got on just because the lynch was easy. It's just that Jim summed up ZU rather handily with:

The terseman terseth.

He's not the best at articulating ideas/reasons (no offense meant, ZU!), and he seems rushed these days. Put someone who makes mostly quick-and-dirty posts and isn't the best at pushing back when challenged and you get...well, here we are, lol. It seems to me that ZU often turns into an easy target of opportunity for scum and a legitimate target for questioning for town, and it's hard (for me, at least) to separate one from the other.

[Jim Groovester]

Been busy with school; will post when time permits. This likely means sometime tomorrow evening.

[webadict]

webadict:

Mod Note: If you vote ZU instead of something longer, I won't count your vote from now on, because it is almost invisible on my screen. Also, don't post in red unless it's a vote.

First: Don't be an ass. ZU is Zombie Urist, just as UI is Urist Imiknorris or people like Hapah like calling people by one syllable names (like "Dar" or "Tir"), neither more visible than ZU or UI. For that matter, "Book" is just as short, would you not count that as a vote?

This has nothing to do with nicknames. I can read nicknames. I can't read two letters. This has nothing to do with my screen. My screen works well, as well. This is an issue with my EYES. I CANNOT SEE IT. If I cannot see it, and you have to continuously bring it to my attention, then I am fixing the problem by making you not do it. ZU is literally unreadable TO ME, and that's all that matters.

And hell, you did count Hapah's "ZU" vote, so why not Dariush's?

...wait. It doesn't matter, does it?
If DS's vote doesn't count, then the votecount is 4-3 ZU-Shake, and I can't do anything to stop the ZU lynch. Damnit. Sorry, ZU.

[...]Fuck you, ZU.[...]

Because he used bold. I can read bolded red things about 3.5 times easier than non-bolded red things.

Consistency and accurate votecounts is the bare minimum competence we require from a mod.

Your shitty screen is not our problem. Please interpret people's intended votes as votes when they are placed clearly and in good faith. That's your job as a mod. Next thing we'll be back to the days of mandatory unvote foo before voting (that was ludicrously bad).


Second: please make sure the vote counts are correct. Sure, you may be a prickly bitch about ZU (please don't be), but I fucking voted Dariush as clearly as sunshine:

Dariush:

Please post an updated, correct votecount.

I missed your vote. Whoop-de-doo. "Let's go on a crusade, boys! I've got nothing better to do!"

Voting ZU is hard for me to see. So is IO, UI, or any other 2 letter word. So, don't do it. If I count it, great for you. You managed to make it seeable. If you don't, then that's your fault. K, big boy? Do not vote two letters, and you won't have that big of a problem. Maybe I'll miss a vote every once in a while, like yours, but I will miss two letter votes far, far, far more often. And I don't want to have to deal with "Web, you missed a vote!" x5 every single time I do a vote count just because my eyes blow.

So, that's why I say not to do it. K?

[webadict]

AND PLEASE USE LURKERTRACKER, FFS, SO YOUR BLINDNESS WON'T AFFECT US ALL VERILY DETRIMENTALLY.

I can use LurkerTracker to check my vote count, but using it to do my vote count is bad. Plus, I can't trust it. At least not more than I trust my eyes.

Vote Count
------------------------
Think0028 -
Deathsword - Urist Imiknorris,
IronyOwl -
penngo009 - Toaster, Hapah,
Bookthras -
Hapah -
Urist Imiknorris -
Tiruin -
Dariush - Bookthras, IronyOwl,
TolyK -
Toaster - Think0028, zombie urist,
Shakerag - Deathsword,
Jim Groovester -
zombie urist - Jim Groovester, penngo009, Tiruin, Shakerag, Dariush,
No Lynch -

Not Voting - TolyK,

8 To Hammer. Day Ends Wednesday 9 PM Central.

[Toaster]

ZombieU:

Based on Toaster's argument, I will, however, amend my statement and say that reaction tests are useful in real life mafia, but not so much in forum mafia.

I don't agree.  If you provoke a snap response, you can get a glimpse of their thought process, which is very useful information.

I don't have time to throughly go through your post, but I do notice that you've missed some part of mine, most notably the part on Bookthras calling you out on lurking.

1)  There wasn't a question in there.
2)  It was also retarded.

Irony:

Toaster:

Irony:  Should Shakerag be lynched, then?  If so, are you saying that barely-part-of-the-game Shakerag is a bigger threat than dodgy ZombieU?  How sure are you ZombieU is scum?

I don't know. I guess I'm leaning towards not, especially since, strictly speaking, Shak doesn't have any incentive to help the scumteam win. I still say he's been anti-town, though, what with his "Four people voting me? I'm not scum, they're scum! That's why I've got votes on me, it's a conspiracy!!"

I'm less sure of ZU now than I was. His dodginess is starting to reach a consistency where I'm really less sure that he's nervous, dodgy scum than that he just doesn't know what the fuck is going on most of the time. I don't know if English isn't his primary language or his reading comprehension is crap or what, but he's moving out of "I don't want to answer that honestly because it might incriminate me" and into "I see a few keywords so I'm going to infer a meaning from context."

By the way, who are your current suspicions? Are you comfortable sitting on your penngo vote?

Fair enough on Shake, since you're unvoting him.

Penngo's nonattendance is nudging his rating from "lazy scum" toward "apathetic player," but not hard or fast enough to make me want to change my vote.  His vote/unvote was pretty flagrant.  As far as other suspicions, red flags started shooting up after this votecount.  ZombieU and Shakerag are 3-3, then back-to-back posts change this.  First, you switch off of ZombieU onto Shakerag (4-2), then Tiruin switches onto ZombieU off TolyK (4-3).  This stuck out to me, so I traced back both your previous case on Shakerag and Tiruin's on ZombieU.  Tiruin had been hammering ZombieU for some time prior to this, so it seems legit.

You, however, hadn't mentioned Shakerag yet.  You voted him for a single reason, while keeping your FoS on ZombieU while throwing a pile of attacks at him.  This lead to my clarification question here.  Your reply felt the same- a heavier case against ZombieU yet a vote against Shakerag, so I pushed again.  Your reply- and change of vote to Dariush- tells me you don't actually want to vote ZombieU, which tells me there's a good chance you two are scumbuddies.

Spoiler: Also (click to show/hide)

Here, I will draw you a fucking picture.

This is the best Mafia post ever.

Jim:

Been busy with school; will post when time permits. This likely means sometime tomorrow evening.

So... after day end?

[webadict]

Let's just solve this stupid replacement problem now.

Vote Count
------------------------
Think0028 -
Deathsword - Urist Imiknorris,
IronyOwl -
penngo009 - Toaster, Hapah,
Bookthras -
Hapah -
Urist Imiknorris -
Tiruin -
Dariush - Bookthras, IronyOwl,
TolyK -
Toaster - Think0028, zombie urist,
Shakerag - Deathsword,
Jim Groovester -
zombie urist - Jim Groovester, penngo009, Tiruin, Shakerag, Dariush,
No Lynch -

Not Voting - TolyK,

8 To Hammer. Day Ends Wednesday 9 PM Central.

zombie urist has been lynched!

zombie urist has come back to life!

Think0028 has been modkilled!

Think0028 was a Spoiler (town).

Deathsword has been modkilled!

Deathsword was Andrew Hussie (mafia).

Urist Imiknorris has been modkilled!

Urist Imiknorris was a Differential Equation (town).

Shakerag was found beaten to death!

Shakerag was The Player Who Secretly Turns BYOR 10 into a Bastard Game of Mafia from a Normal Game of Mafia (outsider).

Urist Imiknorris - Differential Equation

Alignment: Town
Wincon: You win when all anti-Town factions are dead. (Mafia, Cult, SK, Lyncher, Assassin and respective Allies and Brothers)

(Auto) Uniqueness: Your role is unable to be modified. This ability cannot be ignored.
(Night) Solution [target]: You learn the target’s alignment.
(1-Shot, Day) Existence: You lose all Night abilities. You learn who killed the target at the end of the next Night.

Deathsword - Andrew Hussie

Alignment: Mafia
Wincon: You win when your team equals or outnumbers the remaining players and all other killing roles are dead.

(Auto) Picturesque: You can create any role and alignment. Any actions that take role, action, or alignment information will use that. This can be changed at any time. Note: This will take everything word for word.
(Night) Problem Sleuth [target]: You learn the target’s role name.
(1-Shot, Day) Homestuck [target/self]: Target cannot be lynched or killed during this Day Phase.
(1-Shot, Night) MS Paint Adventure [target x(1-3)]: All targets are randomized.

Think0028 - Spoiler

Alignment: Town
Wincon: You win when all anti-Town factions are dead. (Mafia, Cult, SK, Lyncher, Assassin, and respective Allies and Brothers)

(Auto) Spoils Of Victory: While you live, you cannot lose.
(Auto) Spoiled Child [target]: During the first Cycle, choose a player. While you are alive, this player cannot be killed or lynched. You may choose to stop using this ability at any time.
(Night) Spoil Sport [target/self]: Your target is protected from a kill during the Night. If you self-target with this action, you cannot vote the following Day or action the following Night.

Shakerag - The Player Who Secretly Turns BYOR 10 into a Bastard Game of Mafia from a Normal Game of Mafia

Alignment: Outsider
Wincon: You must at least break even.

(Auto) Secret Bastard: BYOR 10 is now a bastard game. For you. Pretty secretive, eh?
(Auto) Credit Card: You are currently carrying one. You can only spend in increments of $100. You have a max limit of $3000.
(Auto) Debt: You start with -$1000.
(Auto) Overnight Stay: Every Night you haven’t broken even costs you $300.
(Auto) Death is Cheap: Dying costs you $500.

[webadict]

*static*-ould fix that-Ah, there we go.

Greetings, test subjects.

The group hellos back. Following yesterday's freak electronic malfunction, the group looks around and notices something strange.

It appears none of your number has disappeared.

Yep. No one had disappeared, alright. What troubling news. Clearly, this was the work of evil doers. Or something.

While we await the cremation of the remains of your fellow test subjects, continue to assail each other with gratuitous insults.

No one died.

Vote Count
------------------------
IronyOwl -
penngo009 -
Bookthras -
Hapah -
Tiruin -
Dariush -
TolyK -
Toaster -
Jim Groovester -
zombie urist -
No Lynch -

Not Voting - TolyK, Jim Groovester, penngo009, Tiruin, Dariush, Bookthras, IronyOwl, zombie urist, Toaster, Hapah,

6 To Hammer. Day Ends Wednesday 9 PM Central.

Note: Some of you are entering the naughty list. That naughty list was just cleared yesterday. I will modkill you too. Just so you know.

[Hapah]

I'll be around sporadically throughout the weekend.

Given no deaths, and the fact that I delayed pengo009, I think I'll start with my vote right there.

Pengo009: Why didn't your "suspicions" post have any suspicions in it?

[Toaster]

Ooo, I know!  Is it because Penngo is scum?




Shakerag:  Can you talk?