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[Dariush]

I didn't really read the rest of your post because it hurts my eyes.

Since when did tl;dr (or rather meh;dr) become a valid excuse not to read posts in Mafia? Hell, since when did anything become a valid excuse not to read posts in Mafia, ZU?

Tolyk, the weekend has come and is almost gone. Remember Toaster's #1?

[Bookthras]

Penngo:

Book, I would be careful throwing around those words. As for your question, how am I supposed to know about scum that much, I am a total newb after all, right?

a) which words? Please quote the words I should be careful throwing about and explain why I should.

b) Answer the question. Even if you were a total newb and didn't know much, you'd still have an opinion, wouldn't you? What is your opinion?

Here, I'll repeat the questions. Please answer them:
Questions: please state your current suspicions, with reasons; please ask two players two different questions each; do you think a scum would be more or less likely to avoid asking questions or casting a vote? why?


Tiruin:

Tiruin: mostly for that vote on TolyK. It seemed forced and not well supported. Also his "strawman" tirade is just... bad. I doubt he'd be Zombie's scumbuddy, though. Questions: have you come to a conclusion after your attack on Zombie? Who is scummier between him and your current vote target? what's your current read on Deathsword?

Forced? How? And not well supported? How?
Erm, who are you referring to in the bolded part?[...]
> I'm awaiting TolyK's post.

That's how it seemed to me. But noted on you're waiting for TolyK's response to reevaluate. The bolded part was about this post. Zombie's is worse, though, and both him and Penngo are gaining in my scummeter. My vote remains on you until you respond to the TolyK question though (which I guess will be after he posts).

[webadict]

Vote Count
------------------------
Think0028 -
Deathsword - Urist Imiknorris, Shakerag,
IronyOwl -
penngo009 - Toaster,
Bookthras -
Hapah -
Urist Imiknorris -
Tiruin - Bookthras,
Dariush -
TolyK - Tiruin, Dariush,
Toaster - Think0028,
Shakerag - Hapah, zombie urist, Deathsword,
Jim Groovester -
zombie urist - IronyOwl, Jim Groovester, penngo009,
No Lynch -

Not Voting - TolyK,

8 To Hammer. Day Ends Monday 9 PM Central.

[IronyOwl]

Unvote for now. Re-entry into game is meeting with moderate success.

Irony I've cared about finding scum a whole lot more than you it seems by now.

OH SHIT NO HE DIDNT

YOU GONNA LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THAT IRONYOWL

AW HELL NAW

I GONNA GET UP IN HIS GRILL FOR THIS SHIT

Except I think he's inundated with questions already so I'll have to settle for out-scumhunting him. Damn.


Tolyk, suspicions? I see you fumbling around with Dariush, but not much else.


Shakerag:

Hapah: Fair enough; you pass.  Unvote.

I don't like this at all. It feels off. Like scum trying to drop a bad case quickly. "Uh, congratulations, you pass! This was all a ruse, hahahaha..."

Do you think we're out of RVS yet? Who are your real suspicions, assuming you've got any?


zombie urist:

And non-RVS questions? Because RVS isn't worth much.

Non-RVS questions don't necessarily follow the guidelines for good RVS questions.

This feels like a huge dodge. You say you were asking good questions, and get into a detailed argument about just what good questions are. Then you're asked about now, and you respond with "they're different."

Different how. Especially for someone who makes such a massive, stark distinction between RVS and scumhunting, going into detail about what makes a good RVS question work and then brushing off scumhunting as "different" strikes me as very suspicious.


You also skipped Jim's rather pertinent questions. I mean, you answered to the "that's obvious" part, but completely skipped over the juicy "if that was his plan why didn't he go through with it?" bit that I wanted to hear about.

Also, what makes you think that was his plan?


Bookthras:

IronyOwl, Jim: do you have any reads so far? Please get more involved.

Current suspicions are Shakerag and ZU. Deathsword seems rather towny, oddly (and unfortunately) enough. Jim's giving me weird vibes with his Think tunnel thing, but I'm not really sure what to make of them. Tiruin I'm having trouble following at times, and Dariush is being useless while flailing at Tolyk who is being useless. penngo looks stuck in a Noob Death Spiral, wherein he refuses to answer or do anything and is thus written off and ignored and continues to be useless or is lynched. I guess Hapah's reading somewhat townlike.


Dariush:

Stating something and then changing your mind immediatly after being asked about it is both scummy and contradictory.

How is changing your mind quickly scummy?

Calling someone a lynch candidate and expecting him to ignore the accusation is scummy and scummy (thus double-scummy).

How is this scummy, or an accusation for that matter?

Also, suspicions?

[Tiruin]

Unvote

zombie urist

TolyK: Where is your post like you promised? 'Rise over the weekend' = it's ~4pm, Monday where I'm at. GMT/UTC +8...


@Bookthras: From your link there, it was a pressure vote, mostly to see how he reacted [uncertainty] hence me picking out those points there. That was my intention and hence why I didn't give my evaluation in comparison at that time. While though I understood what he meant to say, I wanted to make sure which would be assured by his reaction. But based on this, seems like RL is the one holding him up.

Also...you didn't answer my questions on how, but you just pointed at it again and [I guess] inferred I would understand by linking it. Why?

Tiruin: mostly for that vote on TolyK. It seemed forced and not well supported. Also his "strawman" tirade is just... bad. I doubt he'd be Zombie's scumbuddy, though. Questions: have you come to a conclusion after your attack on Zombie? Who is scummier between him and your current vote target? what's your current read on Deathsword?

Forced? How? And not well supported? How?
Erm, who are you referring to in the bolded part?[...]
> I'm awaiting TolyK's post.

That's how it seemed to me. But noted on you're waiting for TolyK's response to reevaluate. The bolded part was about this post. Zombie's is worse, though, and both him and Penngo are gaining in my scummeter. My vote remains on you until you respond to the TolyK question though (which I guess will be after he posts).

So what was the context of your vote?

Now your ?:

have you come to a conclusion after your attack on Zombie? Who is scummier between him and your current vote target? what's your current read on Deathsword?

As continued from this, zombie is scummier by far. ToylK, if truthful by what he said, I figured the vote would aid in keeping his answer concise. Doesn't seem to work.

To summarize:
> Claims a strawman argument, but only brings that claim until long after the idea was proposed [It wasn't used when he first voted him] but as a discussion point.
> Contradiction in defining his argument, and claiming that I'm defending Shakerag because I questioned his statement [Though, may be the obliviousness to terminology or RL, he continued pressing it even after the term was defined. He did not explain much on the difference why he used those terms]
> Seems like he's dodging my post because of the formatting so I'll restate it.

zombie urist: Why do you think shitty RVS questions deserves a vote? It provokes discussion as you stated, and that's helpful right? Why are you pushing your strawman argument even after he answered it? [Including penngo who would've pointed it out]



IronyOwl:

Shakerag:

Hapah: Fair enough; you pass.  Unvote.

I don't like this at all. It feels off. Like scum trying to drop a bad case quickly. "Uh, congratulations, you pass! This was all a ruse, hahahaha..."

Do you think we're out of RVS yet? Who are your real suspicions, assuming you've got any?

You're voting the man because he unvoted Hapah?


penngo009:

Tiruin, It was a joke/trollish response to his question, it was intentional.
I've concluded it because it looks like Irony has posted a lot less then I have

zombie urist

"Potentially effective" has no meaning. Lurking all game can be "potentially effective." Eating ice cream can be "potentially effective." I still don't quite agree on the RVS sentiment, but I don't want another theory discussion. Earlier refers to occuring slightly before in a timeframe. Even assuming a 4 day game, suggesting it to mean D1 and D2 is kinda extreme. Its entirely possible to even mean early in the day as opposed to late in the day.

Did you just say that lurking can be potentially effective.......... Just no. -___________-

Just because a person has posted less means that he cares less about finding scum? It's in the quality of what he says which matters. Even if 1 post per day, if (+) quality and readability, then it matters.

Why "Just no [disappoint face]" and why do you think number of posts > care of scumhunting?

[IronyOwl]

You're voting the man because he unvoted Hapah?

I'm voting him because he voted Hapah for a crap reason and then pulled off in a way that felt fishy to me.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Replacement needed. The next week or two are going to be busy.

[Toaster]

Dariush:

Aww, you're so cute. You went through the thread, found a bullshit RVS question and twisted my words to will a case against me in existence out of thin air. I'd hug you if you weren't such a steaming pile of shit.

It was a reaction test.  You didn't do well.

You didn't answer my question. I asked why you did X, you said because Y. When I said X has no relation to Y, you agreed that you only wanted Y, thus discarding the question entirely. I repeat - why did you ignore obvious sarcasm in Jim's post?

How about this answer, then:  Because I bloody well wanted to.


Penngo:

Hey Toaster, nice job trying to pressure me, good job it didn't make much of a difference to how soon I post. I unvoted because I was going to make a suspicion post, not sit there on someone who still hasn't posted, and there is nothing else I can throw at them. It did look odd because I am not posting this before I hoped that I would get to this posting.

Here comes the tough guy!

I call bullshit on your unvote.  If you didn't care enough about your vote to leave it on until Irony posted, why make the vote in the first place?  Who cares if you had posted a suspicion post?  There was no reason to unvote.

And are you trying to claim that this was a suspicion post?  Hah.  Putting out a crap vote for a crap reason doesn't count.


Tiruin:

And as a note to everyone. Me coloring statements have no effect in-game but to point out what I'm pointing out.

Did this really need to be said?  It's somewhere between paranoia and suspiciously specific denial.  No one had accused you of anything in regards to it- why bother mentioning it?

What made TolyK more voteworthy than ZU?  What reversed that?


Irony:  Please restate your whole cases against ZombieU and Shakerag.

[Dariush]

Wuba, did you miss DS asking for a replacement?

Even if 1 post per day, if (+) quality and readability, then it matters.

Why "Just no [disappoint face]" and why do you think number of posts > care of scumhunting?

Why are you using such weird formatting?

Dariush:

Stating something and then changing your mind immediatly after being asked about it is both scummy and contradictory.

How is changing your mind quickly scummy?

I consider what Tolyk did scummy because he was pretty vocal that everything he said was 'just a guess', but then he directly and strongly contradicted his own words.

Calling someone a lynch candidate and expecting him to ignore the accusation is scummy and scummy (thus double-scummy).

How is this scummy, or an accusation for that matter?

Accusation of being a lynch candidate. It is scummy for exactly the same reason describing someone as scum, but not voting them (or addressing them, for that matter) is.

Also, suspicions?

Toaster for reasons outlined in #204 and general RVS shenanigans, Tolyk for the previously mentioned reasons, ZU for claiming to not read posts and Shakerag for weird RVS questions and general gut feeling, roughly in that order. And, since my vote apparently fails to draw Tolyk out from wherever he's disappeared to, it's back to Toaster.

[zombie urist]

Since when did tl;dr (or rather meh;dr) become a valid excuse not to read posts in Mafia? Hell, since when did anything become a valid excuse not to read posts in Mafia, ZU?

I actually skimmed it and found it hard to read and harder to understand, so I asked Tiruin to provide a better post.

To summarize:
> Claims a strawman argument, but only brings that claim until long after the idea was proposed [It wasn't used when he first voted him] but as a discussion point.
> Contradiction in defining his argument, and claiming that I'm defending Shakerag because I questioned his statement [Though, may be the obliviousness to terminology or RL, he continued pressing it even after the term was defined. He did not explain much on the difference why he used those terms]
> Seems like he's dodging my post because of the formatting so I'll restate it.
zombie urist: Why do you think shitty RVS questions deserves a vote? It provokes discussion as you stated, and that's helpful right? Why are you pushing your strawman argument even after he answered it? [Including penngo who would've pointed it out]

1. That's because I didn't recognize it the first time around.
2. What contradiction. That is pretty much what defending is.
3. Ok.
Shitty RVS questions deserved a vote because it was the scummiest thing I saw so far. My vote stayed on Shakerag because he became more and more suspicious, for reasons I've stated earlier. It does provoke discussion, but not meaningful discussion, which I probably should have stated earlier. Otherwise we could ask RVS about MLB to provoke discussion, but will have almost no bearing on the game. I'm not pushing it anymore, but it is still a pertinent part of the case against Shakerag.

This feels like a huge dodge. You say you were asking good questions, and get into a detailed argument about just what good questions are. Then you're asked about now, and you respond with "they're different."
Different how. Especially for someone who makes such a massive, stark distinction between RVS and scumhunting, going into detail about what makes a good RVS question work and then brushing off scumhunting as "different" strikes me as very suspicious.
You also skipped Jim's rather pertinent questions. I mean, you answered to the "that's obvious" part, but completely skipped over the juicy "if that was his plan why didn't he go through with it?" bit that I wanted to hear about.
Also, what makes you think that was his plan?

My distinction between RVS and scumhunting is that the main purpose of RVS is to provoke discussion and scumhunting is to actively find scum. It's possible that RVS will reveal scum but that is not the main priority. Since these two activities have different purposes, naturally they have different guidelines.
He probably gave up his plan because I pointed it out. I think that was his plan because its a simple way to get a mislynch.

Dariush:

Aww, you're so cute. You went through the thread, found a bullshit RVS question and twisted my words to will a case against me in existence out of thin air. I'd hug you if you weren't such a steaming pile of shit.

It was a reaction test.  You didn't do well.

This is BS and we all know it. 

Here's a better summary of why Shakerag is scum.
1. Asking shitty RVS questions. Something interesting to note is in that same post, Shakerag questions Toaster on why he always seems to ask 'queer' questions.
2. Pulls some very BS cases. Notably on Hapah, Penngo, and to a lesser extend Dariush. All three are examples of throwing something and hoping it sticks. Especially in the case of Dariush, his 'Are you scum?' questions' only purpose looks to be to get Dariush to slip up and provide material for a lynch.
3. His current vote is on Deathsword with the addendum that it will stay there until 'he sees some scumhunting.' This makes it very easy for him to sit on that vote, which is exactly what he is doing.

[Dariush]

I actually skimmed it and found it hard to read and harder to understand, so I asked Tiruin to provide a better post.

You did not ask him anything, you filthy liar.

2. Pulls some very BS cases. Notably on Hapah, Penngo, and to a lesser extend Dariush. All three are examples of throwing something and hoping it sticks. Especially in the case of Dariush, his 'Are you scum?' questions' only purpose looks to be to get Dariush to slip up and provide material for a lynch.

Wait what? Did you seriously manage to contradict yourself in the space of three sentences?

[zombie urist]

Apparently you're right. Thought I did though.

I wouldn't call Shakerag's statements regarding you a 'case', mostly due to the second part.

My wording sucks, but the point I'm making still holds.

[Shakerag]

To be fair, for all we know there could have been unpredictable bullshit happening during RVS.  Jim could have, to pull an example out of air, been targeted with a day ability that turned him into a fish.  In hindsight, it may have been ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek as well.
And, again, it was a joke.  A bit of banter, if you will.  A playful ribbing aimed at our dearly beloved Dariush.

Just... no. Thats way to bastardly for this kind of game and it makes it look like you're making shit up.

And I was an unkillable survivor mason in BYOR 8.  I think you're underestimating webadict. 

Shakerag: How could Dariush acting like Dariush not get him lynched? There have been several games where Dariush has been lynched or ignored based on his typical reactions. Your example of 'how it's impossible to lynch Dariush for being angry' is a mere strawman argument. Why were you making a joke to Dariush like that anyways?

You'll have to give me examples, because in my head I mostly remember Dariush carrying on like Dariush does and everyone else largely focusing on thier own targets.  Regardless, it still was never my intention to build a case around Dariush getting angry, because that is, in my mind, building a case against water for being wet. 

Also, and I would like to state how I dislike repeating myself, I made a joke to Dariush "like that" because I wanted to amuse myself by receiving a colorful epithet from him.  That's all. 

Note that I asked TolyK the question in question.

Continuing to prove that I have the reading comprehension of limestone noted. 

Bolded for emphasis above. What reaction were you expecting/hoping for, Shake? It obviously wasn't the cool deflection that he gave you. It wasn't Dar trying to figure out where you were going with the line of questioning, and it wasn't an angry response (see bolded top portion of the quote pyramid above). What were you looking for?

Hapah, you seem bound and determined to try and make me mentally will your head to implode. 

I *was* expecting an angry or irritated response.  I was hoping for some manner of slip-up that would indicate he was scum.  What game are you reading that you're getting these conclusions from, because it isn't this one. 

Shakerag:

Hapah: Fair enough; you pass.  Unvote.

I don't like this at all. It feels off. Like scum trying to drop a bad case quickly. "Uh, congratulations, you pass! This was all a ruse, hahahaha..."

Do you think we're out of RVS yet? Who are your real suspicions, assuming you've got any?

Bandwagon more, scum. 

Also, is that supposed to be a rhetorical question?  You can infer my answer from that. 

My suspicions are Deathsword, Hapah, zombie urist, and now yourself, all for voting me for the most limpdicked of reasons. 

*IronyOwl - Apparently voting me for seeing if I would get a scumslip out of Hapah by voting him for a bullshit reason.  Which is something that no one else ever does, of course.
*zombie urist - Apparently voting me for bullshit reasons that I refute below.
*Hapah - Apparently voting me because he has a fetish about being smacked upside the head with a shovel.  Also, because he thinks I'm going to somehow get Dariush lynched for being angry, and because I'm not as funny as Jim.  Interestingly, my apparent target (Dariush) has decided to not lambast me forwards and backwards for [Sarcasm]my ham-fisted attempt at getting him lynched.[/Sarcasm]
*Deathsword - Apparently voting me (webadict: do votes from those replacing out stay valid?) for getting on his ass about not scumhunting, not being able to tell the difference between probing for scumslips and "bullshit", and flimsy-ass reasons that other people have used that I've refuted already. 

Here's a better summary of why Shakerag is scum.
1. Asking shitty RVS questions. Something interesting to note is in that same post, Shakerag questions Toaster on why he always seems to ask 'queer' questions.
2. Pulls some very BS cases. Notably on Hapah, Penngo, and to a lesser extend Dariush. All three are examples of throwing something and hoping it sticks. Especially in the case of Dariush, his 'Are you scum?' questions' only purpose looks to be to get Dariush to slip up and provide material for a lynch.
3. His current vote is on Deathsword with the addendum that it will stay there until 'he sees some scumhunting.' This makes it very easy for him to sit on that vote, which is exactly what he is doing.

1 - How are your RVS questions (or anyone else's, for that matter) quantifiably "less shitty"?  Aside from that, do you personally and honestly think, at the beginning of any game, that "shitty RVS" questions is a scumtell?
2 - Throwing something and hoping it sticks is, dare I say it, standard procedure for early D1 in any non-bastard mafia game. 
3 - And I would have continued to sit on that vote until I saw something at least approaching decent scumhunting.  Are you suggesting that I not call out people who aren't scumhunting and put a pressure vote on them?  However, seeing as he's replacing out, I'm voting you now because you have a terrible, terrible "case" on me, and you're the next-most-scummy after Deathsword.

Dariush:

Aww, you're so cute. You went through the thread, found a bullshit RVS question and twisted my words to will a case against me in existence out of thin air. I'd hug you if you weren't such a steaming pile of shit.

It was a reaction test.  You didn't do well.

This is BS and we all know it. 

And you're doing what about that, then? 

[zombie urist]

And I was an unkillable survivor mason in BYOR 8.  I think you're underestimating webadict. 

But you died anyways.  Also I find it hilarious how you're taking this seriously when Jim said it was a joke.

I *was* expecting an angry or irritated response.  I was hoping for some manner of slip-up that would indicate he was scum.  What game are you reading that you're getting these conclusions from, because it isn't this one. 

I still don't read your actions this way. I think it looks like you were hoping for some manner of slip-up that would get him lynched. Regardless, Dariush didn't respond in an angry way. Why didn't you do anything about this?

*IronyOwl - Apparently voting me for seeing if I would get a scumslip out of Hapah by voting him for a bullshit reason.  Which is something that no one else ever does, of course.
*zombie urist - Apparently voting me for bullshit reasons that I refute below.
*Hapah - Apparently voting me because he has a fetish about being smacked upside the head with a shovel.  Also, because he thinks I'm going to somehow get Dariush lynched for being angry, and because I'm not as funny as Jim.  Interestingly, my apparent target (Dariush) has decided to not lambast me forwards and backwards for [Sarcasm]my ham-fisted attempt at getting him lynched.[/Sarcasm]
*Deathsword - Apparently voting me (webadict: do votes from those replacing out stay valid?) for getting on his ass about not scumhunting, not being able to tell the difference between probing for scumslips and "bullshit", and flimsy-ass reasons that other people have used that I've refuted already. 

No I don't think those are the reasons people are voting you.

1 - How are your RVS questions (or anyone else's, for that matter) quantifiably "less shitty"?  Aside from that, do you personally and honestly think, at the beginning of any game, that "shitty RVS" questions is a scumtell?
2 - Throwing something and hoping it sticks is, dare I say it, standard procedure for early D1 in any non-bastard mafia game. 
3 - And I would have continued to sit on that vote until I saw something at least approaching decent scumhunting.  Are you suggesting that I not call out people who aren't scumhunting and put a pressure vote on them?  However, seeing as he's replacing out, I'm voting you now because you have a terrible, terrible "case" on me, and you're the next-most-scummy after Deathsword.

1. I've already gave a definition for good RVS questions. Also yes I do.
2. Making shit up and hoping it sticks is not.
3. Day ends today. It's way to late for pressure votes.

And you're doing what about that, then? 

Nothing until you get lynched.

[Shakerag]

I still don't read your actions this way. I think it looks like you were hoping for some manner of slip-up that would get him lynched. Regardless, Dariush didn't respond in an angry way. Why didn't you do anything about this?

"[..] some manner of slip-up that would get him lynched."  You mean, like a scumtell?  Gee, why would I be looking for one of those? 

His response was Dariush enough to not make me press him hard.  He's known for being angry, but that doesn't mean he's frothing at the mouth in every post. 

And you're doing what about that, then? 

Nothing until you get lynched.

Wow, could you be any more obvious that you're scum?

Extend


As much as I'd like to babysit this thread until the deadline, I'm going to be otherwise occupied.  So I'm going to claim.  Here's a preview of the "unpredictable bullshit" in this game:

The Player Who Secretly Turns BYOR 10 into a Bastard Game of Mafia from a Normal Game of Mafia

My alignment is Outsider and my wincon is to at least break even.

To avoid modslayings, the ability text is rephrased.

(Auto) Secret Bastard: For me, at least, BYOR 10 is now a bastard game.
(Auto) Credit Card: I place money on bets offered by webadict in increments of $100.  I have credit worth $3000.
(Auto) Debt: My starting balance is $-1000, due to a bad prior evening of betting.
(Auto) Overnight Stay: It costs me $300 to stay in the game every night as long as I haven't hit my wincon.
(Auto) Death is Cheap: I automatically lose $500 if I die. 

In the sake of full disclosure, my current betting offers are [1:9] odds on calling who dies N1, and [1:13] odds on calling who gets lynched D2.  It is implied that these offers will change as the game continues. 

So, town:  Find actual scum to lynch.
Everyone else: I plan on winning and leaving the game ASAP, so I'll see myself out.