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[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

yeah i am totally ignoring you irony. working and not actually seeing your response is clearly proof of bad intent. right, hmm hmm.

Tossing me the burden of proof, how cool. clearly i have the time to go around and check all the other game leafsnail as been on to show to you irrefutably that he is a good player.  How about you make your on opinion of that, you probably played more game with him than me. How about he convincd town to use the devil deal last game, while it was clearly not the safest option ( as a bonus, it worked because the vamp lord was massively shortsighted, and screwed himself thorougly) and get his wincon. Thats the most recent example i got.  I don't care what you think of Leafsnail, it's completely useless. I was convinced he used his charisma to tunnel me to death, believe me or not, and put your vote. Not hard.

Broad generalisation refer to how about you stick to what i write, rather that what your little mind want to hear ? How about understanding I said i wanted to save my life, and explained why i did so, rather than letting myself be lynched stupidly.  and no, i'm not wondering why you want me to get the noose, i'm not as dleuded as you. Still, if you get your little lynch, i'll be happy to laugh form the sidelines.

[Mephansteras]

The Counting Stones
Bdthemag: NUKE9.13
IronyOwl: Jack AT, Mysteriousbluepuppet
Mysteriousbluepuppet: IronyOwl, Jim Groovester
NUKE9.13: Dariush, Max White



Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

[IronyOwl]

Nuke:

What. Ok, I'm looking at the linked posts, and I cannot see how they contradict what I am saying there.
That aside, the main statement: Since never. I don't see how the quote calls upon such reasoning. To be clear, I am saying that MBP's actions can be explained by him being either town or scum, whereas BD's can only be explained by him being scum. Thus, we should lynch BD.
I... I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.

Unvote MBP MBP, your really stupid. Too stupid to be scum as a matter of fact, because I would have suspected if you were scum your buddy would be trying to defend you right now. Or he would be viciously attacking you to seem like town. Although im still suspicious of you, im going to avert my attention elsewhere for now.

I assume this is the part you claim must have been made by scum. Did you mean the part about not understanding your arguments or something?

Zrk2, you are an idiot for rolefishing, should have thought about that better. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and call you a simple moron, though, rather than scum. You're welcome.

But seriously. Can you not agree that, town or scum, MBP is an idiot. And can you not further agree that it is, at the very least, less likely for scum to do something incredibly stupid?

In conclusion, he is an incredible idiot. A massive moron. A ridiculous retard. A dumb-as-shit doofus.
But probably not scum. Because scum tend to think more about their actions and the consequences thereof.

These seem like the same basic reasoning: "You're too stupid to be scum, so you're not." If that's not what you're saying had to have been made by scum, what is?



MBP:

yeah i am totally ignoring you irony. working and not actually seeing your response is clearly proof of bad intent. right, hmm hmm.

So now I'm supposed to assume that when you don't answer a question I know you can't, you've simply missed it and are busy. Right.

Tossing me the burden of proof, how cool. clearly i have the time to go around and check all the other game leafsnail as been on to show to you irrefutably that he is a good player.

Yeah, totally cool of me to shove burden of proof on you to show what you're claiming is true. I mean, jeeze, what's your problem, IronyOwl? It's not like MBP has time to dig up evidence of how he knows something. And it's not like he'd, you know, already have examples in his head if he knew about it in the first place.

How about you make your on opinion of that, you probably played more game with him than me.

Okay. My opinion is that Leafsnail is not some sort of hypercharismatic player who can mindrape the entire rest of the game into lynching whoever he wants on nothing at all. And that anyone trying to claim that had better have some goddamned amazing evidence for it, or they're thrashing scum.

How about he convincd town to use the devil deal last game, while it was clearly not the safest option ( as a bonus, it worked because the vamp lord was massively shortsighted, and screwed himself thorougly) and get his wincon. Thats the most recent example i got.

The vamp deal had a lot less to do with Leafsnail's charisma, and a lot more to do with a desire for quickly eliminating the cult leader. It wasn't even a bad idea, it just wasn't handled well at the end, mostly due to wanting to be efficient when they should have been quick.

The vamp lord in question openly admitted to not knowing it'd cause him to vanish, which had absolutely zero to do with Leafsnail.

I don't care what you think of Leafsnail, it's completely useless. I was convinced he used his charisma to tunnel me to death, believe me or not, and put your vote. Not hard.

Broad generalisation refer to how about you stick to what i write, rather that what your little mind want to hear ? How about understanding I said i wanted to save my life, and explained why i did so, rather than letting myself be lynched stupidly.  and no, i'm not wondering why you want me to get the noose, i'm not as dleuded as you. Still, if you get your little lynch, i'll be happy to laugh form the sidelines.

So you're done defending yourself from me and I'm going to accept what you say even though you can't back it up and your story's been changing, or I'm going to put my vote on you and you'll laugh at me once you're lynched.

Not hard.

Well said.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Well, i'd be defending myself if there was any question you would care to ask. Would also help if you'd be willing to read the response.

Maybe the part where i said your own opinion is irrelvant, since the whole argument is wether if i am scum using a lylo breaker day 2, or if i am town that used it to cause a lynch on somebody i tought was scum. Let's get some rhetoric in there, since you are arguably unable to understand anything else .I don't care what you think of Leafsnail. It is uselesss. It is useless. When i used my quicklynch, i did not think ''Oh god i hope irony agree with me that Leafsnail is a good player''. That whole point you seem intent on bringing back is a loss of time. Loss of time. Loss of time. Maybe if i repeat everything three time you will learn to read it. Loss of time, for good measure. I was certain that he would be able to tunnel me to death, and he showed clear sign he wanted to do so. I decided to use my power.

Care to show me where my story changed? Thats a good accusation, can't wait to hear from you.

[NUKE9.13]

Unvote MBP MBP, your really stupid. Too stupid to be scum as a matter of fact, because I would have suspected if you were scum your buddy would be trying to defend you right now. Or he would be viciously attacking you to seem like town. Although im still suspicious of you, im going to avert my attention elsewhere for now.

I assume this is the part you claim must have been made by scum. Did you mean the part about not understanding your arguments or something?

Look, buddy, if you're not going to read what I've written, I can't take you seriously.
Here is my case against BD.
You will notice that I do not have an intrinsic problem with BD's reasoning.
Next time, read what you are criticizing. You flipping nutjob.

[Jim Groovester]

NUKE9.13, you missed my question.

How does MBP's brilliant move leave open the possibility that he's town while Bdthemag's brilliant move leaves no such possibility?

Also, if Bdthemag is such obvscum, what does that say about him that he unvoted MBP without casting a vote elsewhere?

I don't care what you think of Leafsnail, it's completely useless.

I'm starting to see a common pattern in your defenses.

You should care. It's getting you lynched.

Or it would if everybody decided to cast their votes.

[NUKE9.13]

NUKE9.13, you missed my question.

Apologies.

How does MBP's brilliant move leave open the possibility that he's town while Bdthemag's brilliant move leaves no such possibility?

See my earlier posts; MBP is undeniably an idiot, but there are town and scum explanations for his idiocy. BD is not necessarily an idiot, but his actions are definitely scummy.
I should, perhaps, clarify, that I am not saying BD is 100% scum. I'm thinking ~85% here, whilst MBP is more like ~45%.

Also, if Bdthemag is such obvscum, what does that say about him that he unvoted MBP without casting a vote elsewhere?

It can say one of two things:
-BD is using the lull in the MBP bandwagon to unvote his partner
-BD is unvoting a mislynch target due to the lull in the bandwagon.
I am inclined towards the second, although I will not deny the possibility of the first.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Disagreed, Jim. Irony is big on asking the same shitty questions, and i am really tired to answer them over and over. If he bring new material, i'll be happy to oblige, but right now it's stale. My answer to them clearly do not have impact on his vote choice, but then again it's expected, he admitted earlier that he did not have any intention of moving his vote anyway.

Dunno if i will be avalaible much for the next 2 days, so a Extend would be cool.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Forgot to bold,Extend

[IronyOwl]

MBP:

Maybe the part where i said your own opinion is irrelvant, since the whole argument is wether if i am scum using a lylo breaker day 2, or if i am town that used it to cause a lynch on somebody i tought was scum. Let's get some rhetoric in there, since you are arguably unable to understand anything else .I don't care what you think of Leafsnail. It is uselesss. It is useless. When i used my quicklynch, i did not think ''Oh god i hope irony agree with me that Leafsnail is a good player''. That whole point you seem intent on bringing back is a loss of time. Loss of time. Loss of time. Maybe if i repeat everything three time you will learn to read it. Loss of time, for good measure. I was certain that he would be able to tunnel me to death, and he showed clear sign he wanted to do so. I decided to use my power.

Uh huh. So you don't care what I think of Leafsnail, even though that's directly related to how justified it is to end the day instantly to kill him, which is in turn rather relevant to whether or not I lynch you.

So either there's some reason you think that what I think of Leafsnail shouldn't have any impact on where I place my vote, or you don't care about my vote. If it's the former, I'd be fascinated to hear why.

Care to show me where my story changed? Thats a good accusation, can't wait to hear from you.

Okay.

Spoiler: Part One (click to show/hide)

I tought Leafsnail was tunneling me, and also working on a chainlynch on me. His constant insistence on me voting for Zrk (wich if i may remind, i tought was useless, both since everyone and their mother already were on him, and also because i did not see anything else than stupidity in his play, no particularly scummy behavior) was ridiculous, and i really thought he was trying to set me up on the next lynch. When Zrk flipped town, i tought, i tought that scum scum were probably amongst the voter, and so his insistence on me voting him felt as a way for him to claim i was bandwagoning, and lynch me next. So i decided to use my power. Hoped he would flip, of course, but it did not work...

Note the past tense and opinion of "I thought." You thought he was tunneling you, not "he was tunneling me."

-Tought id use my power, if it worked nice, if not well, fuck me.
- Results : fuck me, i'm now a powerless Moose. I guess i'd feel sorry for leaf if he had not spewed such tripe all day long.

M'eh, i'm now town and powerless. If you really need to sate your bloodthirst, fine. Tought my logic was sound, but no such luck, so I'm ready to face the music.

"Well I'm fucked. If you need to lynch me, fine, I guess I knew this might happen."

So we've got:

-You thought Leafsnail was doing bad things, but turns out he wasn't
-You knew you'd be fucked if you were wrong, and it turns out you were so you are

Spoiler: Part Two (click to show/hide)

First of, gload that at least we got a concensus that i am an idiot. That i can agree.

"Yes, I am clearly an idiot."

I was certain that leaf was gonna get me lynched, and since i know i'm town, i had some trouble letting that pass. Especially when i got a power that would allow me to take him down instead.  Coulda been a scum, and thus, tought i had to take the chance. Already hearing the ''But you are an idiot and leaf is a good player !!1!''.

Once more with the past-tense opinion. You also claim that everyone else thinks Leafsnail was a good player, and even imply that they might be wrong, which becomes interesting later on.

Bd: Not sure if you are reading, but i could not force the lynch later on, I have no illusion that Leaf would have voted me first thing in the day, and that i could not do anything after tha . Jim, possibly toasty would have gunned for me, and if they are good at anything it's getting people to vote for their picks. So yeah, try my luck with a possible scum (33% or so chance) or wait and get killed ( 0% chance). Statistics.

Same post, but now Leafsnail (as well as two of the best players in the thread, for some strange reason) definitely were going to vote you, and the move makes perfect sense.

Irony: You justify my that i am obvscum since i ''killed'' leafsnail, but if you knew you were town, had a kill and could kill someone not-confirmed in your place, what would you do ? Sit on your ass and wait a lynch?

Max: Agreed i am an idiot.

Weird flipflopping here, both claiming it was a good idea to me and agreeing with Max that you're an idiot for it.

So now we've got:
-You're clearly an idiot
-You thought Leafsnail was going to do bad things but turns out he wasn't
-Everyone thinks Leafsnail is a good player
-Leafsnail was definitely going to vote you first thing tomorrow
-Your plan was a good one

Not only does this contradict your original attitude, it's not even consistent with itself.

Spoiler: Part Three (click to show/hide)

You know, i got it, you want to lynch me. Subtle hints, here and there. Frankly, i will laugh once i flip, be it by a lynch or NK. Imagining you continuing to spout obscenities and deluding yourself that your work was perfect and it's surely an illusion i flipped town will be glorious.

Jim's clearly unreasonable for trying to lynch you or thinking you're scum. Direct contradiction to your statements in the first post that you knew you might die and were ready for it.

Revise your Maths, if i let myself be lynched, mafia still get their kill, 0 % of scum death, while I had 1 in 3 of getting scum. Missed, but was worth the shot.  Including today's lynch is a cool little way to load the question.

Sooo, i made my choice Irony, please do answer my question. Or maybe jim will pop around to try and put noose me. Starting to grow on me.

Once again claiming that it was a good idea now, plus voting me for voting you.

Tossing me the burden of proof, how cool. clearly i have the time to go around and check all the other game leafsnail as been on to show to you irrefutably that he is a good player.

Claiming Leafsnail was a good player.

Which gives us:

-People voting you are unreasonable and maybe even scummy
-Your plan was a good idea
-Leafsnail was a very good player


So altogether, we get:

-You thought Leafsnail was doing bad things, but turns out he wasn't
-Leafsnail was definitely going to do bad things

-Everyone thinks Leafsnail is a good player!!1!
-Leafsnail is a very good player

-You're an idiot
-Your plan was good

-You knew you'd be fucked if your plan failed
-People voting you are stubborn or scum


Thus, changing your story.



Nuke:

I assume this is the part you claim must have been made by scum. Did you mean the part about not understanding your arguments or something?

Look, buddy, if you're not going to read what I've written, I can't take you seriously.
Here is my case against BD.
You will notice that I do not have an intrinsic problem with BD's reasoning.
Next time, read what you are criticizing. You flipping nutjob.

Okay. Why did you link to this post and say "Look at how scummy he is!" if it has absolutely jack shit to do with why you think he's scum?

[Jack A T]

I'm getting tired of quoting these posts section by section.  Thus, a quick note: this post is mostly built around this post of Irony's.

I set up an argument against Irony for twisting NUKE's words.  Irony's defense has been to twist my words.  Amazing.

For example, Irony seems to have discovered that I used the words "glaringly obvious" once.  For example, apparently I said I know the entirety of NUKE's plan, in depth, because I said I was only bringing up the glaringly obvious.  In addition, apparently, saying I'm only bringing up the glaringly obvious is the same thing as saying that NUKE's entire plan is glaringly obvious.

Or, to put it differently, Irony has taken the words "glaringly obvious", and somehow used them to say that I know NUKE's entire plan and why he brought it up, completely ignoring the context of the words.

Yay.

I know what I read, and I know the obvious context they were in (that is to say, what day they were on, and when during that day, and what was said around them).  What Irony and I were starting to get in to was a somewhat deeper exploration of the plan.  Now Irony's saying that the results we got in that deeper exploration, which had never been brought up before the "glaringly obvious" comment, are proof that I...was lying about knowing NUKE's entire plan or something?

Oh, and the doctor thing?  It's obvious enough that this happened D1 in response to Zrk2's claim:

Spoiler: Try Twisting These Words (click to show/hide)

Nuke I didn't think Zrk2 was being serious with that post honestly. I mean he hasn't played in awhile, but EVERYONE knows not to claim doc D1.

Look, you've played Beginner's Mafia before.  You understand that a doctor should not claim until lylo (and in fact is probably the worst role to claim possible, since it gives the town no information and tells the scum who they can safely kill).

Claiming straight doc is not only unwise, but uncreative.

Nuke:

WHY. WOULD. YOU. ROLECLAIM. DOCTOR.

Refuge in Audacity?

And again, I don't consider Irony scummy for asking questions.  I find him scummy because he twists words, and he seems to care a bit much about not looking like he's OMGUSing.

Finally, I have not been trying to make NUKE look non-malicious.  I've been trying to deal with Irony twisting words.  Irony wants this all to be seen as me defending NUKE from his accusations, and has tried to turn it into that from the start.  Frankly, I'm getting rather tired of that.

IronyOwl: So, just to clarify, you're saying that you think FoSing or voting for me wouldn't have been productive, but that you thought just saying I'm scum without doing either would've been?

Jim: You seem to be completely missing my extremely large, underlined point.  The big problem isn't that he didn't do it, but that he didn't do it to avoid an accusation of OMGUSing.  That's the big problem.

MBP:

Jack, How about stopping using broad generalisation stupidly ? I'm pretty sure you are actually able to read what i said. Try again.

Okay...on to the interpretation that I thought was too stupid to be true.  Correct me if this is wrong: You said you didn't consider yourself to have screwed up, and that's not why you killed Leafsnail.  You then said that you killed Leafsnail to avoid being lynched by the town...due to Leafsnail's AWESOME SUPER-CHARISMA POWERS.  I assumed that any lynch would require even the slightest bit of evidence to back it up, but you're saying you consider Leafsnail to have AWESOME SUPER-CHARISMA POWERS that allow him to ignore that.

...Still confused.

My answer to them clearly do not have impact on his vote choice, but then again it's expected, he admitted earlier that he did not have any intention of moving his vote anyway.

Where did Irony say that?  Because I've been arguing with Irony for a while now and the closest I've seen to that was an "I don't particularly want my vote elsewhere at the moment" comment.

[Dariush]

Irony,

For starters, I'm assuming he had reasons, else you would have called him out on making things up. I don't recall any such conversation, so I'm assuming you didn't, which implies he had, at a bare minimum, bad reasons.

Secondly, the bolded part seems to directly contradict your assertion that he'd have ridden this list regardless of anything else that happened, or at the very least your assertion that it was reasonable to assume as much. Care to explain this?

I didn't call him out on it and did so only now because I distinctly remember him mentioning the 'scumteam' at least twice at different times during the day, so I wanted to see what he would do D2 after one of the 'scumteam' has been lynched.

Now, this argument has gone way too far out of 'Your case is shit' territory and into 'Look at me, I'm defending a flipped town!' territory. Do you have any suspicions beside Big Bad Scum MBP, Nuke and me for the terrible crime of agreeing with a point of Big Bad Scum MBP?

Jim, I wanted to see you answer my question about you considering Leaf obvtown. I got what I wanted, with a nice dose of OMGUS as a bonus.

Nuke,

Also, if Bdthemag is such obvscum, what does that say about him that he unvoted MBP without casting a vote elsewhere?

It can say one of two things:
-BD is using the lull in the MBP bandwagon to unvote his partner
-BD is unvoting a mislynch target due to the lull in the bandwagon.
I am inclined towards the second, although I will not deny the possibility of the first.

Wait-wait-wait. So you think BD is obvscum who unvotes an easy mislynch target while using your arguments about 'MBP is stupid' becaaaaause...

(hint:that was a question)

[NUKE9.13]

Wait-wait-wait. So you think BD is obvscum who unvotes an easy mislynch target while using your arguments about 'MBP is stupid' becaaaaause...

...he smells the tide shifting away from said mislynch target.
What he fears is the following scenario:
He and several others are voting for MBP
MBP is lynched and flips town.
The next day, people take a good look at everyone who voted MBP, and find BD the scummiest.

This scenario is not to be feared if nigh-everyone is voting for MBP and everyone agrees that MBP is probably scum. However, not everyone agrees that MBP is scum and plenty of people were not voting for him, so BD was looking to get off the wagon.

Seriously, Dariush, this isn't rocket science. We are talking basic mafia strategy, here.

Nuke:

I assume this is the part you claim must have been made by scum. Did you mean the part about not understanding your arguments or something?

Look, buddy, if you're not going to read what I've written, I can't take you seriously.
Here is my case against BD.
You will notice that I do not have an intrinsic problem with BD's reasoning.
Next time, read what you are criticizing. You flipping nutjob.

Okay. Why did you link to this post and say "Look at how scummy he is!" if it has absolutely jack shit to do with why you think he's scum?

...wait, what, are you serious. Please, please, please go and read my case against him. You clearly haven't. This is getting annoying.
The 'this' post is the one to which I am replying in the 'here' post. In 'look at how scummy he is' I link to that post instead of my own because I think that the scumminess thereof requires no explanation. If it does, they can simply scroll down four posts.

[Toaster]

Ran out of time for a solid post, but I did see one question to answer:


Jim:  MBP?  Dumb bullheaded town.  I'm buying into mod-WIFOM here, but I don't see that as a scum power.

[Toaster]

I didn't say wait for me.


Jim:  To give that question a better answer, first of all I don't see the scum team getting that kind of power.  It's an assumption I'm willing to make.  Second, that move looks like one made on the spur of the moment- an individual choice.

However, no matter how you slice it, it was a dumb and scummy move, and his defense of it is shoddy.  I'm torn, the more I think about it.  Let's see...


MBP:  Ignoring your action D2, who do you suspect and why?


Simple:  You say a lot about what's going on without taking any sort of stand on it.   How about you give us your interpretation of these events instead of a passive commentary?


BD:  How about you get in here and answer some questions?  And express some concrete opinions of people?


Finally, extend.  I hope it gets used.