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[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Nuke:
Quote from: NUKE9.13 on Today at 01:31:20 pm
IronyOwl: Why are you voting MBP? Because I think he's

Quote from: IronyOwl on Today at 06:51:59 am
RiAing obvscum who's openly admitted to killing Leafsnail to avoid being lynchedand because I don't particularly want my vote elsewhere at the moment.

Feels like a bit of bandwagoning...Check out the underlined
 ''Oh, i don't want to move my vote, hes the most likely to be lynched, so by voting him i can show i'm a good townie. That's what good townie do right? Right ? ''

Hmm, answering a question with another is poor form. Care to answer mine ?

Now to answer your questions.

Revise your Maths, if i let myself be lynched, mafia still get their kill, 0 % of scum death, while I had 1 in 3 of getting scum. Missed, but was worth the shot.  Including today's lynch is a cool little way to load the question.

Frankly, you do a terrible impression of me. How about i correct you :
 
Day 1 was : Screw it, whatever i say Leaf will use to chainlynch me. Not voting Zrk : scumpartner! Vote Zrk : hes trying to bus!!!1!
. Fuck those assholes ( Jim was getting included here. He always get included in those cases.)
Day 2: ''Hey, new day. I'm the first poster. Hmm, do i try a big move ? Or do i wait for leafsnail to keep his tunnel going ? Won't get another chance anyway. Moo, Leaf.''


Sooo, i made my choice Irony, please do answer my question. Or maybe jim will pop around to try and put noose me. Starting to grow on me.

Ninja'ed

haha, beat me to it Jack

[Toaster]

Unvote Darvi.  Shocker.


BD:  I asked you if you had any scum picks besides MBP.  You said...

Toaster Yup, Nuke so far. I was thinking Dariush at first, but he always acts the way he does regardless of his alignment so im not sure. Nuke because his arguements aren't making any fucking sense to me at all.

Unvote MBP

Great.  Nuke is your #2 pick, and in fact MBP isn't worth voting any more.

So... why aren't you voting Nuke?



MBP:

Bd: Not sure if you are reading, but i could not force the lynch later on, I have no illusion that Leaf would have voted me first thing in the day, and that i could not do anything after tha . Jim, possibly toasty would have gunned for me, and if they are good at anything it's getting people to vote for their picks. So yeah, try my luck with a possible scum (33% or so chance) or wait and get killed ( 0% chance). Statistics.

As for my picks, it would be amongst the massive wagon we got on day 1. People still alive from this group are Bd , JackAT, Jim, Max, Nuke and Simple. Scum knowing their members, i dont doubt they would jump on the chance to sink someone not of their own, so i would rank the 3 other non-zrk voter less likely to be scum. Jugement and possible question to some :

First off, quit saying I would have voted you.  Second, are you in a wine chugging contest here?


Max:  I see.


Jack:  Are you so interested in seeing MBP hang that'd you'd be in favor of a "quicklynch" of him?

Also, where did Irony say he thought you were very scummy?

[Jack A T]

Jack:  Are you so interested in seeing MBP hang that'd you'd be in favor of a "quicklynch" of him?

Also, where did Irony say he thought you were very scummy?

MBP quicklynch: I think it's quite likely that he's scum.  However, I am generally against lynches that don't give targets a chance to defend themselves.  A lynch like the one MBP performed is something I'd only do to a player who, from my point of view, is confirmed scum.

Irony considering me very scummy: He called me NUKE's scumbuddy.  Unambiguous.

[IronyOwl]

Jack:

Switching doctor with just a general "valuable role", I see.  Nice.  The thing about a doctor is that it's an NK magnet, and it generally can't defend itself.  Compare that to other valuable roles which are also NK magnets, but are more likely to be protected.  Again, I see no contradiction between "We shouldn't lynch someone who claims a valuable role" and "WHY. WOULD. YOU. ROLECLAIM. DOCTOR."

Admittedly, as if doctor isn't a valuable role I'm not sure what is. "Anything but a doctor, because then a doctor might protect them" sounds like a rather strange answer, especially if we're only talking about D1.

Taking into account that he was calling for a completely random lynch in that post, and calling for lynching people regardless of their defenses, I think I can safely say that he wasn't talking about towntells.

So the purpose of his plan was to weed out boring roles. I mean, if you don't care at all whether someone's town or scum, but still won't lynch certain people based on their roles, I'm not sure what else you could conclude.

Your elaboration accusation: I like taking context into account when looking at what people say.  It's generally a good idea, and allows me to get reads more easily.  Also, I'm not going into anything beyond the glaringly obvious.

So you consider doctor being a useless role and Nuke making sense and being nonmalicious to all be "glaringly obvious." I'd really like to hear about those last two.

...I can't believe you actually said this.

Everybody: IronyOwl has just announced that he avoided voting for, or even FoSing, a player he explicitly considers very scummy just to avoid looking like he's OMGUSing.

Correct. Pressure doesn't accomplish anything if the target can convince themselves it isn't valid.

Unvote, vote IronyOwl.  You obviously care more about your own image than catching scum.

Wait, what? What happened to quicklynching MBP? You don't like that plan anymore?



MBP:

Feels like a bit of bandwagoning...Check out the underlined
 ''Oh, i don't want to move my vote, hes the most likely to be lynched, so by voting him i can show i'm a good townie. That's what good townie do right? Right ? ''

That's more along the lines of "I don't have anyone I need to pressure with it, nor are there enough votes on him that I can remove mine without worry."

Hmm, answering a question with another is poor form. Care to answer mine ?

...

That was an answer. That question was rhetorical, though looking back at it I suppose wasn't precisely what you asked. For your exact question, yes, I suppose I'd kill someone non-confirmed in my place.


Of course, the relevant answer is a lot different, since the above one assumes my impending doom is some unfortunate event that just happened. The real question would be more like "If you had fucked up so repeatedly and grievously that you were convinced you'd be lynched for your scummy bullshit, would you take the noose like a man or give the scum a free NK in order to kill your primary attacker, hoping that this would somehow make you less scummy than anything else you could have done?" To which my answer would be "Fuck no, I would take the noose like a man and hope the rest of the town aren't complete fuckups like I was."

Now to answer your questions.

Revise your Maths, if i let myself be lynched, mafia still get their kill, 0 % of scum death, while I had 1 in 3 of getting scum. Missed, but was worth the shot.  Including today's lynch is a cool little way to load the question.

You, Leafsnail, NK target. Three townies down the drain.

If your lynch was a guarantee, I don't see why it'd be any less so after killing the confirmed townie who was going after you. Leafsnail I shouldn't have to explain, not that I should have to explain any of this. The NK target would have gone down after a full day's discussion, instead of immediately, effectively handing the scum two NKs in a row.

You had a one in four chance of hitting scum. PM was already dead by then.

You yourself have pointed out repeatedly that if you were wrong you'd be fucked. Now you're saying that it was both totally worth it and totally unreasonable to assume you might get lynched for it.


In other words, you've stopped panicking and are now defending your actions as reasonable and proper. Unbelievable.

Frankly, you do a terrible impression of me. How about i correct you :
 
Day 1 was : Screw it, whatever i say Leaf will use to chainlynch me. Not voting Zrk : scumpartner! Vote Zrk : hes trying to bus!!!1!
. Fuck those assholes ( Jim was getting included here. He always get included in those cases.)
Day 2: ''Hey, new day. I'm the first poster. Hmm, do i try a big move ? Or do i wait for leafsnail to keep his tunnel going ? Won't get another chance anyway. Moo, Leaf.''

If his arguments were complete and utter bullshit, why were you utterly convinced he could singlehandedly get you lynched?

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Toasty : imperative word here is possibly.

About wine, I simply assume scum would be happy to jump on such a huge wagon as the one Zrk , nothing too much to worry about, if everyone agree then you won't get questioned on it, easy day for scum, who don't have to defend, interract, etc.
Note i'm not implying the whole team was on the wagon, but that i find it more likely. It's hardly a hard indication, considering that for exemple my suspicion is currently on Irony, who was not a zrk voter.

Jack: You answer that you would only do a unilateral kill on someone you know is scum, but i fail to see how that impact on if i'm scum or not. I don't have the same vision as you, and i prefer to use my cards rather than sit back and get lynched.

Ninja'ed

To answer your question, I would take the noose if i fucked so badly. thing is, it's not what i feared. The situation wasnot ''oh shit i screwed up, i'll use leafsnail first so i get another day.'' That would be goddamned stupid. Thing is, that was not the case.

What I feared is that he would tunnel me to death. His appeal is damned strong, and if we add Jim (who i suspect get's off whenever he Rethorics someone to death) my actual scumminess would not have mattered. He did announce it clearly, pulled a shitty no-win demand on me etc. Guess thats a compliment to how persuasive i believe the guy is.

[IronyOwl]

To answer your question, I would take the noose if i fucked so badly. thing is, it's not what i feared. The situation wasnot ''oh shit i screwed up, i'll use leafsnail first so i get another day.'' That would be goddamned stupid. Thing is, that was not the case.

What I feared is that he would tunnel me to death. His appeal is damned strong, and if we add Jim (who i suspect get's off whenever he Rethorics someone to death) my actual scumminess would not have mattered. He did announce it clearly, pulled a shitty no-win demand on me etc. Guess thats a compliment to how persuasive i believe the guy is.

So that's it? Leafnsail is just so goddamned charismatic that he's able to lynch people on literally nothing?

Show me some examples of this. I mean, I assume if he can just point to someone and say "This person hasn't done anything wrong, but I'm tunneling him so you all should too" and have it work, it'd be a pretty goddamned frequent occurrence. Or would you like to claim this is a talent he picked up just for this game, and that you didn't need any prior examples to know about?

[Jack A T]

First: Obviously, I wasn't clear when I mentioned "MBP's quicklynch", seeing how two people have interpreted it as me wanting to lynch him quickly.  By "MBP's quicklynch", I meant his use of his power to lynch Leafsnail D2 just a few minutes into the end of the day.

Your elaboration accusation: I like taking context into account when looking at what people say.  It's generally a good idea, and allows me to get reads more easily.  Also, I'm not going into anything beyond the glaringly obvious.

So you consider doctor being a useless role and Nuke making sense and being nonmalicious to all be "glaringly obvious." I'd really like to hear about those last two.

More twisting of words.  Yay.

Doctor being a useless role: If claimed D1, it's almost definitely not going to get a chance to protect someone.

Nuke making sense: His suggestion was extremely stupid, but can be understood.

Nuke being nonmalicious: Oh, hey, here's where you ignore the times I've said I find NUKE scummy, while trying to say I've said something I've never said!  Yay!  Essentially, I find he feels scummy, but you feel scummier.  NUKE is hard for me to read, though, seeing how, as far as I can tell, he seems to consider being deliberately scummy D1 to be pro-town.

...I can't believe you actually said this.

Everybody: IronyOwl has just announced that he avoided voting for, or even FoSing, a player he explicitly considers very scummy just to avoid looking like he's OMGUSing.

Correct. Pressure doesn't accomplish anything if the target can convince themselves it isn't valid.

Announcing that you're not voting for or FoSing me just to avoid looking like you're OMGUSing doesn't really help convince me that your pressure is valid.  I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.  Were you trying to recover from me not considering your pressure valid?

Taking into account that he was calling for a completely random lynch in that post, and calling for lynching people regardless of their defenses, I think I can safely say that he wasn't talking about towntells.

So the purpose of his plan was to weed out boring roles. I mean, if you don't care at all whether someone's town or scum, but still won't lynch certain people based on their roles, I'm not sure what else you could conclude.

That's definitely more likely than anything to do with specific things being towntells, as far as I can tell.  Not something I'd thought of on my first reading of his post, but it is an interpretation that makes sense (not as a good plan, but as a logical interpretation of NUKE's plan).

Switching doctor with just a general "valuable role", I see.  Nice.  The thing about a doctor is that it's an NK magnet, and it generally can't defend itself.  Compare that to other valuable roles which are also NK magnets, but are more likely to be protected.  Again, I see no contradiction between "We shouldn't lynch someone who claims a valuable role" and "WHY. WOULD. YOU. ROLECLAIM. DOCTOR."

Admittedly, as if doctor isn't a valuable role I'm not sure what is. "Anything but a doctor, because then a doctor might protect them" sounds like a rather strange answer, especially if we're only talking about D1.

Let's see if I can explain my thoughts more clearly...

Doctor is a very valuable role.  However, it loses a massive amount, if not all, of its value if it claims, due to being a high-priority target that generally can't save itself.  If scum NKs it, the game is quite a bit easier for them.  If scum doesn't NK the doctor, WIFOM has a somewhat high chance to ensue.  Either way, the town gains almost nothing from the doctor claim.

MBP:

To answer your question, I would take the noose if i fucked so badly. thing is, it's not what i feared. The situation wasnot ''oh shit i screwed up, i'll use leafsnail first so i get another day.'' That would be goddamned stupid. Thing is, that was not the case.

What I feared is that he would tunnel me to death. His appeal is damned strong, and if we add Jim (who i suspect get's off whenever he Rethorics someone to death) my actual scumminess would not have mattered. He did announce it clearly, pulled a shitty no-win demand on me etc. Guess thats a compliment to how persuasive i believe the guy is.

...What?  So...you didn't do it to avoid getting lynched, but you did do it to avoid getting lynched?  Explain.

Jack: You answer that you would only do a unilateral kill on someone you know is scum, but i fail to see how that impact on if i'm scum or not. I don't have the same vision as you, and i prefer to use my cards rather than sit back and get lynched.

...What?  So...you did do it to avoid getting lynched?

[Max White]

Fucking text walls, how do they work? Sorry, I'm quickly skimming the thread right now and most likely missing the juicy details, but I'm sort of tied up right now. Give me some time tonight to give this a real read.

Irony: Is pressure the only reason you would vote somebody?

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Jack, How about stopping using broad generalisation stupidly ? I'm pretty sure you are actually able to read what i said. Try again.

[NUKE9.13]

Jack! Irony!
You're both pretty!
Now stop arguing over me!

I can defend myself.

Irony, I don't really understand what your problem is, but I believe the whole argument falls to pieces if I clarify one thing:

A doctor, claimed D1, is not valuable.

I may be wrong. This may not have cleared things up. I hope it has. If not, I'll take another dive into that cesspool of an argument you two have going on, and try to figure out what the problem actually is.

Now, aside from you two, nothing much has happened.

Why is nobody voting BD? Look at this. This is ok, this is fine town behaviour?
MBP is an idiot. Town idiot or Scum idiot, who can say?
BD is scum. Scum genius or Scum idiot, who can say? (I can, its the latter)
Let us lynch the one who isn't maybe town.

[Simple]

Sorry for lurking, i just couldn't get myself to reread the thread and i felt i shouldn't jump back before that. And these walls of text that appear in the meantime don't help >< Ok enough whining i'll get to work.
As for the question why i'm not voting i'm not  sure if i'm not just mistaken about MBP even if he's most scummy at the moment .

I must agree that MBP conduct is not something that can be ignored, he delibarelty used his lylo-breaking one-shot to change the situation into one that favors him not the town. And i still don't get why he "had to" get rid of leafsnail that early in the day.
He seems to try to fix that though but i'm not sure if that could be taken as something good.

Another suspect right now is dariush especially with this response:
#342 : If this accusation is to have any sense he must assume it was obvious that leafsnail was chainlynching while d1 lasted. Why he did nothing about it back then ? Probably because it was in his favor

Right now i'm bit confused if Jack and Irony are arguing over which one is more scummier or who was right at the beginning. I need to read that argument again i guess.

Rereading it back it seems that there's indeed something fishy about BD's flakiness. BD:What's your read on Nuke right now?

[Dariush]

Dariush:

Uh, that came out wrong. What I call chainlynching is Leaf finding four suspects, claiming that they are all scum together and lynching one, then going to the next without evaluating the changes that happened.

What made you say he was going to ignore anything and everything that happened in between?

So ultimately I suppose Zrk2, MBP, Bd and Dariush are looking pretty bad at the moment (for being or defending scum).

He quite plainly said that among the four people he listed, everyone was either scum or defending someone else who was, in his opinion, scum. He attempted to paint up connections between us without any reason, for obvious goals.

[Jim Groovester]

SHOUT SHOUT LET IT ALL OUT THESE ARE THE THINGS I'M SHOUTING ABOUT COME ON I'M TALKING TO YOU COME ON

Why does he have to vote you or FoS you to declare he finds you suspicious? Votes I understand, FoS I don't. They're largely superfluous and it's perfectly possible to suspect somebody without the use of meaningless blue text.

Irony considering me very scummy: He called me NUKE's scumbuddy.  Unambiguous.

That's an obvious jab to see your reaction.

Your case on IronyOwl seems a bit of a stretch.

Why is nobody voting BD? Look at this. This is ok, this is fine town behaviour?
MBP is an idiot. Town idiot or Scum idiot, who can say?
BD is scum. Scum genius or Scum idiot, who can say? (I can, its the latter)
Let us lynch the one who isn't maybe town.

Yes, he's scum. MBP is also scum.

How does MBP's brilliant move leave open the possibility that he's town while Bdthemag's brilliant move leaves no such possibility?

Also, if Bdthemag is such obvscum, what does that say about him that he unvoted MBP without casting a vote elsewhere?

Stuff

So when are you going to get to the point and vote somebody already?

Agreeing with everybody is not scumhunting and is extremely passive. Now is a perfect time to point out that passivity is a scumtell.

Toaster, I don't think I've seen you lay down a solid opinion on MBP yet. What's your read on him?

Dariush, you haven't answered my question.

[IronyOwl]

Jack:

Your elaboration accusation: I like taking context into account when looking at what people say.  It's generally a good idea, and allows me to get reads more easily.  Also, I'm not going into anything beyond the glaringly obvious.

So you consider doctor being a useless role and Nuke making sense and being nonmalicious to all be "glaringly obvious." I'd really like to hear about those last two.

More twisting of words.  Yay.

Doctor being a useless role: If claimed D1, it's almost definitely not going to get a chance to protect someone.

Nuke making sense: His suggestion was extremely stupid, but can be understood.

This says nothing whatsoever about why they're "glaringly obvious."

Nuke being nonmalicious: Oh, hey, here's where you ignore the times I've said I find NUKE scummy, while trying to say I've said something I've never said!  Yay!  Essentially, I find he feels scummy, but you feel scummier.  NUKE is hard for me to read, though, seeing how, as far as I can tell, he seems to consider being deliberately scummy D1 to be pro-town.

So he's scummy, but you could still make benign assumptions about exactly what his plan was and why.

Right.

...I can't believe you actually said this.

Everybody: IronyOwl has just announced that he avoided voting for, or even FoSing, a player he explicitly considers very scummy just to avoid looking like he's OMGUSing.

Correct. Pressure doesn't accomplish anything if the target can convince themselves it isn't valid.

Announcing that you're not voting for or FoSing me just to avoid looking like you're OMGUSing doesn't really help convince me that your pressure is valid.  I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.  Were you trying to recover from me not considering your pressure valid?

I'm saying voting/FoSing you wouldn't have been productive, so I didn't.

Taking into account that he was calling for a completely random lynch in that post, and calling for lynching people regardless of their defenses, I think I can safely say that he wasn't talking about towntells.

So the purpose of his plan was to weed out boring roles. I mean, if you don't care at all whether someone's town or scum, but still won't lynch certain people based on their roles, I'm not sure what else you could conclude.

That's definitely more likely than anything to do with specific things being towntells, as far as I can tell.  Not something I'd thought of on my first reading of his post, but it is an interpretation that makes sense (not as a good plan, but as a logical interpretation of NUKE's plan).

..."more likely?" I thought it was "glaringly obvious" what his plan was and why, and now it's "more likely" that is was an "interpretation" that was "not something you'd thought of."

Switching doctor with just a general "valuable role", I see.  Nice.  The thing about a doctor is that it's an NK magnet, and it generally can't defend itself.  Compare that to other valuable roles which are also NK magnets, but are more likely to be protected.  Again, I see no contradiction between "We shouldn't lynch someone who claims a valuable role" and "WHY. WOULD. YOU. ROLECLAIM. DOCTOR."

Admittedly, as if doctor isn't a valuable role I'm not sure what is. "Anything but a doctor, because then a doctor might protect them" sounds like a rather strange answer, especially if we're only talking about D1.

Let's see if I can explain my thoughts more clearly...

Doctor is a very valuable role.  However, it loses a massive amount, if not all, of its value if it claims, due to being a high-priority target that generally can't save itself.  If scum NKs it, the game is quite a bit easier for them.  If scum doesn't NK the doctor, WIFOM has a somewhat high chance to ensue.  Either way, the town gains almost nothing from the doctor claim.

And you find this "glaringly obvious," to the extend that asking about it is scummy?



MBP:

Jack, How about stopping using broad generalisation stupidly ? I'm pretty sure you are actually able to read what i said. Try again.

Hey look, no examples and you're ignoring me. I wonder why you're going into the noose!



Nuke:

Jack! Irony!
You're both pretty!

I may be wrong. This may not have cleared things up. I hope it has. If not, I'll take another dive into that cesspool of an argument you two have going on, and try to figure out what the problem actually is.

Why thank you, but this has progressed rather beyond the simple issue of whether a D1 doc is valuable or not.

Why is nobody voting BD? Look at this. This is ok, this is fine town behaviour?
MBP is an idiot. Town idiot or Scum idiot, who can say?
BD is scum. Scum genius or Scum idiot, who can say? (I can, its the latter)
Let us lynch the one who isn't maybe town.

Wait. Since when did you have a problem with Too-Stupid-To-Be-Scum style reasoning?



Dariush:

Dariush:

Uh, that came out wrong. What I call chainlynching is Leaf finding four suspects, claiming that they are all scum together and lynching one, then going to the next without evaluating the changes that happened.

What made you say he was going to ignore anything and everything that happened in between?

So ultimately I suppose Zrk2, MBP, Bd and Dariush are looking pretty bad at the moment (for being or defending scum).

He quite plainly said that among the four people he listed, everyone was either scum or defending someone else who was, in his opinion, scum. He attempted to paint up connections between us without any reason, for obvious goals.

For starters, I'm assuming he had reasons, else you would have called him out on making things up. I don't recall any such conversation, so I'm assuming you didn't, which implies he had, at a bare minimum, bad reasons.

Secondly, the bolded part seems to directly contradict your assertion that he'd have ridden this list regardless of anything else that happened, or at the very least your assertion that it was reasonable to assume as much. Care to explain this?

[NUKE9.13]

Why is nobody voting BD? Look at this. This is ok, this is fine town behaviour?
MBP is an idiot. Town idiot or Scum idiot, who can say?
BD is scum. Scum genius or Scum idiot, who can say? (I can, its the latter)
Let us lynch the one who isn't maybe town.

Wait. Since when did you have a problem with Too-Stupid-To-Be-Scum style reasoning?

What. Ok, I'm looking at the linked posts, and I cannot see how they contradict what I am saying there.
That aside, the main statement: Since never. I don't see how the quote calls upon such reasoning. To be clear, I am saying that MBP's actions can be explained by him being either town or scum, whereas BD's can only be explained by him being scum. Thus, we should lynch BD.
I... I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.