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[pisskop]

[sigh]


Tiruin


FOS: Jim

In case that got lost between my posts and my failing to properly code it.

[UXLZ]

There's a preview button, Pisskop, and it's there for a reason.

In the future, if you're going to WoTs like that, I'd suggest using a spoiler for each person you have points to address with. Like so:

Spoiler: Cheeetar (click to show/hide)

Hi there Cheeetar, how are you?

Spoiler: Jim (click to show/hide)

The Grooviest groovester

Spoiler: Pisskop (click to show/hide)

Getting the idea?

Spoiler: Tiruin (click to show/hide)

:x

Do note that none of these contain anything important. They're just for demonstration purposes.
Put anything 'General' (and important things like votes) at the start or end.

[pisskop]

Nonsense.  We dictate who he kills, and we pick another choice.  We can even elect two people to send him a private message and one of those two best be dead tomorrow.  There are many ways to ensure we get our vig shot (multiple, as pointed out above) without it being anything less than a complication.  Even moreso with PMs

I am completely opposed to any plan about dictating to the vigilante who he kills.

  You are entitled to that choice, but I disagree.

Now we know why you were against dictation!  You had his ear, and were feeding him your scum!


UXLZ
  You cannot combine spoilers into one 'super-spoiler'.  Thus, spoiling is ruined if spoilers are used in quotes, dig?

[Deus Asmoth]

pisskop, how are you overdue in voting for TDS? The only mention of him that you've made that's any way recent was here:

TheDarkStar I am suspicious of, but have nothing to present.

And then you voted for him without bringing anything to back up your suspicions other than other people having pointed out that they were concerned about him as well. I also want to ask you why you're using PMs to ask people's opinions of other players instead of doing it in the thread, and why you're so put out that flabort still thinks you're suspicious. Just because you don't think he's scum doesn't mean that he has to assume you're town.

Toaster: I didn't have a vote down because I out for the weekend and couldn't catch up with the thread enough to justify a vote on someone to myself, since I'd prefer to read over someone's actions for the entire day before voting for them.


PPE: pisskop, who exactly is it that you think is manipulating flabort? Tiruin or Jim? Why is it so much worse than your own suggestions about who he should kill?

[Shakerag]

Well, I will be killing either Shakerag or TheDarkStar, depending on how the day goes, if I live through day 1.

Super.  Welp, good to know I don't need to bother participating for the rest of the day.  GG, all.

[Cheeetar]

Tiruin: You claim to have not been PMed by anybody. Pisskop claims you have been being PMed. What's up?

[Pisskop not answering my questions]
Good job answering none of my questions. Jee whiz. Why did you offer to give us the PMs Flabort has sent you in confidence (and why now have you posted these)? Why do you believe there's a detective? Why did you send different people different PMs?

But I did answer them.  You are not the only one who asked.

Deus

Pisskop, what was the reason for the differences in your PMs? How did you decide who got which one?

I sent them at different times to different people with whom I'd varying levels of trust/interaction with.  The differences between the two are the two questions.

I sent the PMs out in waves, and new people that I hadn't talked to yet were in the second wave.
  As for why I offered up Flabort's posts, I want to convince you he is also town.  I was mentioning how we could secure his vig shot without lynching him, remember?

To be fair, there is no foolproof way to ensure he is 'town vig'.

---

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Letting somebody live because they're a high priority target for a nightkill (assuming they're telling the truth) is not optimal, because it leaves open the possibility for scum to leave them alive to draw our suspicion to them, and they can also argue that they were left alive purely so scum would have an easy lynch the following day. At the time, I saw Flabort as the scummiest player, and I wasn't going to let his weird silly claim get in the way of my wanting to lynch him.

Are you opposed to giving him the chance to verify his claim? If you were scum and you believed flabort's claim, what would you do?

Be the one keeping him alive so I can whisper in his ear on who to kill to prove his towniness.

  That only works if he thinks you yourself are town.

-Cheetar, why are/were you willing to compromise with a TDS lynch?

Well duh, of course it only works if he thinks you're town. Was I suggesting anything else? TDS was my next scummiest pick for how suspiciously he jumped on the Flabort wagon.
[/quote]

That's not a question of yours.  But yes, I was asking you why you wanted a TDS lynch.  I didn't remember your reasons for suspecting him, so I was being thorough.
  specially now that the TDS wagon exploded, I think its important to get the reasons down today for review tomorrow.

Not how. Why.
Why did you ask different things of different people, and why did you only tell some people you were asking others these questions?
Why do you believe there's a detective?
Why did you want to convince me Flabort was town? Why do you believe seeing his PMs would convince me that Flabort was town?
What I'm getting when I ask you some of these questions is 'I sent different PMs to different people I had different PM history with', which does not answer why.

(Good job trying to implicate me for TDS's lynch while I'm voting for you, by the way.)

[pisskop]

Shaker

Well, I will be killing either Shakerag or TheDarkStar, depending on how the day goes, if I live through day 1.

Super.  Welp, good to know I don't need to bother participating for the rest of the day.  GG, all.

There is a bodyguard in the game.


Deus

pisskop, how are you overdue in voting for TDS? The only mention of him that you've made that's any way recent was here:

TheDarkStar I am suspicious of, but have nothing to present.

And then you voted for him without bringing anything to back up your suspicions other than other people having pointed out that they were concerned about him as well. I also want to ask you why you're using PMs to ask people's opinions of other players instead of doing it in the thread, and why you're so put out that flabort still thinks you're suspicious. Just because you don't think he's scum doesn't mean that he has to assume you're town.

PPE: pisskop, who exactly is it that you think is manipulating flabort? Tiruin or Jim? Why is it so much worse than your own suggestions about who he should kill?

I think Jim is pulling his strings if only one person is, as mentioned in my last post.  We will find out soon enough, though.

  I'm irritated that Flabort thinks I'm scum.  I grow moreso irritated when he keeps throwing non-sequitar's and half-baked turns into his accusations just to make sure he gets every last detail into his post.

I have been using PMs so I can compare them.  I have made specific points to protect the names of any people involved in these PMs, and I have almost always sent the same or a very similar PM to at least 2 people.  It is because it has proven to be an effective way to form a trusted 'town-bloc' (which I feel I mostly have) and because I am new to the idea of free-for-all whispering during the daytime .


cheetar

[Pisskop not answering my questions]
Good job answering none of my questions. Jee whiz. Why did you offer to give us the PMs Flabort has sent you in confidence (and why now have you posted these)? Why do you believe there's a detective? Why did you send different people different PMs?

But I did answer them.  You are not the only one who asked.

Deus

Pisskop, what was the reason for the differences in your PMs? How did you decide who got which one?

I sent them at different times to different people with whom I'd varying levels of trust/interaction with.  The differences between the two are the two questions.

I sent the PMs out in waves, and new people that I hadn't talked to yet were in the second wave.
  As for why I offered up Flabort's posts, I want to convince you he is also town.  I was mentioning how we could secure his vig shot without lynching him, remember?

To be fair, there is no foolproof way to ensure he is 'town vig'.

---

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Letting somebody live because they're a high priority target for a nightkill (assuming they're telling the truth) is not optimal, because it leaves open the possibility for scum to leave them alive to draw our suspicion to them, and they can also argue that they were left alive purely so scum would have an easy lynch the following day. At the time, I saw Flabort as the scummiest player, and I wasn't going to let his weird silly claim get in the way of my wanting to lynch him.

Are you opposed to giving him the chance to verify his claim? If you were scum and you believed flabort's claim, what would you do?

Be the one keeping him alive so I can whisper in his ear on who to kill to prove his towniness.

  That only works if he thinks you yourself are town.

-Cheetar, why are/were you willing to compromise with a TDS lynch?

Well duh, of course it only works if he thinks you're town. Was I suggesting anything else? TDS was my next scummiest pick for how suspiciously he jumped on the Flabort wagon.
[/quote]

That's not a question of yours.  But yes, I was asking you why you wanted a TDS lynch.  I didn't remember your reasons for suspecting him, so I was being thorough.
  specially now that the TDS wagon exploded, I think its important to get the reasons down today for review tomorrow.

Not how. Why.
Why did you ask different things of different people, and why did you only tell some people you were asking others these questions?
Why do you believe there's a detective?
Why did you want to convince me Flabort was town? Why do you believe seeing his PMs would convince me that Flabort was town?
What I'm getting when I ask you some of these questions is 'I sent different PMs to different people I had different PM history with', which does not answer why.

I deleted the sentence about 'I have sent this to everyone else I have already talked to because I hadn't talked to that 2nd group yet.
I believe there is a detective because I know there is a bodyguard.
I was attempting to convince the whole town, and not just you, that Flabort lynch is a bad lynch.  You were having this discussion while I put in my two cents.

(Good job trying to implicate me for TDS's lynch while I'm voting for you, by the way.)

Who implicated you?  I suggest you show me how I implicated you.
[/spoiler]

[Scripten]

Super.  Welp, good to know I don't need to bother participating for the rest of the day.  GG, all.

This is not a pro-town attitude to have.

[UXLZ]

Pisskop, preview button, use it. Seriously, your posts always seem to end up a mess and people may end up missing important points in the chaos.

This is not a pro-town attitude to have.

I was going to mention that, but I think he's joking.

[Shakerag]

Super.  Welp, good to know I don't need to bother participating for the rest of the day.  GG, all.

This is not a pro-town attitude to have.

flabort has some kind of murderboner towards me.  If I'm just going to get killed N1 no matter what, then I have lost all interest in the game. 

[Scripten]

Being anti-town isn't going to convince anyone not to kill you. Mafia's a team game, so being all defeatist does nobody favors unless you're scum or a third party.

[Jim Groovester]

Oh, goddamnit. Deathsword is the one replacing, not TDS. Y'all: The first sentence in my previous post is a bit dumb, but well intentioned. Inactivity is no reason to not be voting Pisskop instead. And, ninja'd.

If TheDarkStar was prodded but hasn't posted, then he's intentionally lurking and would therefore be a well-justified lynch.

Pisskop's slot has been acting strangely, and is posting style makes me reflexively want to lynch the crap out of him, but I can see potential town motive in him trying to push Flabort to vig players. (He's a watcher variant, isn't he?)

You make it seem like pisskop's role is an important part of whatever potential town motive he has for telling flabort who he wants dead.

I don't see it, personally.

Pisskop, preview button, use it.

Do you have anything beyond formatting suggestions to add to this discussion?

Jim
. . . and so have you, Jim.  Are you the one who is advising Flabort?

Nope.

Maybe you missed the part where I am strictly against telling the vigilante who to kill.

You know what I told flabort after he BCCed me your hit list? I told him he shouldn't be listening to anybody on who he decides to kill. Everything I am in this game is in the main thread; I've stated what I really think and I've never tried to be sneaky sneaky with PMs. If I say something is a bad idea in public, then I'm damn well saying that it's a bad idea in private.

Nono, we're all fairly tired of it, I suspect.  Are you the one guiding Flabort?
  You know, Snark can often hide scummy non-compliance.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147607.msg5984719#msg5984719
This is a post of your's that is utter fluff garbage.  You are pushing my lynch, and using Flabort to do it as well.  Dirty, Dirty, Jim.

Wait, you think somebody's scummy for telling flabort who to kill?

Huh.

Huh.

Huh.

  To note, I've had some questions on the TDS wagon.  If you are scum, and have been guiding poor Flabort, that makes TDS an unlikely scum.  I just added my vote in lieu of the blizzard.  If I'm not on when the day ends, I won't be killed by my not voting with the times.

So you're deliberately bandwagoning to avoid scrutiny and backlash. Good to know.

It is because it has proven to be an effective way to form a trusted 'town-bloc' (which I feel I mostly have) and because I am new to the idea of free-for-all whispering during the daytime .

I don't believe you have a town block. I believe you have a group of people willing to play along with you.

If any of you are PMing pisskop, I would be extremely wary. Your role and night actions may end up in scum hands, because do you really trust pisskop to be adequately discriminating when it comes to deciding who he thinks is town and scum and worth bringing into a special little private circle?

[notquitethere]

Cheetar

He didn't send it to 8 players simultaneously- he sent a PM to me and Mephansteras, which was apparently different to the PMs he sent to other people. When I received the PM, I had no idea it was anything but a private request for comment on whether we could lynch someone, and that's certainly how he framed it in the PM. The note you got in your PM, where he says he sent this to other people? I didn't get that.

Right. I see the discrepancy now.

He wanted Deathsword lynched, but he offers me a DarkStar lynch (whom I was going to be voting for) as long as I agree not to vote for him. I am precisely this bad, and no better.

Self-preservation isn't necessarily scummy, I've made bargains as town before (for instance, in Magic Mafia). But yeah, it doesn't reflect well. Hmm.


Toaster

Killing a suspicious player that we know nothing about increases our info more than killing a jumpy player that we know a lot about and can pin to an action tonight.

While I generally follow your train of logic in this post, this particular line I don't get.  Can you explain?

We know a lot about Pisskop. Him and Wolf have posted and interacted with a lot of players, and he's made a claim. Furthermore, we can pin his night actions to that claim: if tomorrow he says he patrolled or tracked someone and someone counterclaims, it's possible to confirm these things. Essentially we have in him one player we can be reasonable sure isn't going to be performing the scum kill tonight. On the other hand, if we lynch a player that hasn't made a claim AND is also suspicious, we stand to learn a lot more (whether or not they flip scum). Do you follow me now? D1 is the ideal time to try to maximise information.


Jim
Do you think of Shakerag's desire not to play in light of his belief that he'll be killed in the night reflects on his alignment?

[mastahcheese]

*Reads through the thread with a ._. face.*

And now we have more secret messages, "hitlists", alleged town blocks, and everything else that's Illuminati under the sun.

And we aren't even in the second fucking day.

*Throws his hands in the air*

Pisskop's PM shenaniganry pisses me off to no end.
We have this issue where pisskop is saying "flabort thinks I'm scum!" while flabort agrees to not kill him, and instead says he's planning on killing Shake or TDS, so now Shake is depressed.
This whole time, I've been trying to wrap my head around things, to see who is scummiest. But now there's so many people irritating me, that I'm actually feeling inclined to agree with Jim, of all people.

You know what? I know who I'd like lynched. Pisskop. Fuck off of the alleged vigilante. The fact that you're trying to affect who he plans to kill is utter bullshitery. It also either proves that 1) You believe he's really a vig, and would like to have control over that, which is never good, or 2) You think he's lying (and would likely be a vet or something similar) but are too scared to attack him on it, so now you're trying to get on his good side.
I can see no possible reason that an innocent townie would try to affect the Vig's choice of kill, especially in secret. Particularly when you take into account your claim of being a reporter. If I were in that spot, with that power, I'd simply watch him, to see if he's legit, not go through all this garbage.

I realize that a lot of people have this idea of "We should keep him alive! We can gain [insert excuse here] from him!"
No. I will not agree with this concept. I have no trust in him, I do not want him alive, after all this.

[Deus Asmoth]

flabort: Is Jim the one you're collaborating with in regard to your night kill? Considering that he's previously said that he's against directing the kill of our vigilante, I think it'd be worth telling the rest of us if he's behaving so hypocritically. A yes/no will suffice if you don't want to reveal the identity of your partner in crime.

Deus

pisskop, how are you overdue in voting for TDS? The only mention of him that you've made that's any way recent was here:

TheDarkStar I am suspicious of, but have nothing to present.

And then you voted for him without bringing anything to back up your suspicions other than other people having pointed out that they were concerned about him as well. I also want to ask you why you're using PMs to ask people's opinions of other players instead of doing it in the thread, and why you're so put out that flabort still thinks you're suspicious. Just because you don't think he's scum doesn't mean that he has to assume you're town.

PPE: pisskop, who exactly is it that you think is manipulating flabort? Tiruin or Jim? Why is it so much worse than your own suggestions about who he should kill?

I think Jim is pulling his strings if only one person is, as mentioned in my last post.  We will find out soon enough, though.

  I'm irritated that Flabort thinks I'm scum.  I grow moreso irritated when he keeps throwing non-sequitar's and half-baked turns into his accusations just to make sure he gets every last detail into his post.

I have been using PMs so I can compare them.  I have made specific points to protect the names of any people involved in these PMs, and I have almost always sent the same or a very similar PM to at least 2 people.  It is because it has proven to be an effective way to form a trusted 'town-bloc' (which I feel I mostly have) and because I am new to the idea of free-for-all whispering during the daytime .

I think I've discovered a way to find out whether it's Jim that's trying to manipulate flabort even sooner than you were thinking. It's at the top of this post. You've also missed a couple of my questions. What is the difference in you telling flabort who you think should be killed and someone else doing the same?