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[Caz]

mastahcheese

Caz: If someone on lookout got killed, what would that say about the people that voted to put them on lookout? To get the discussion in a new direction.

I don't think it would say anything particularly damning. Scum want to get scum on the lookout so they're more likely to try and swing a vote for one of their teammates, though this argument can become full of wifom very easily. If they flipped scum, I'd be looking closer at who voted for them, though.

What are your considerations when choosing who to vote for as the lookout?

@People asking about my TolyK read.
No Watch

I don't think we can do this.

Comrade Shamrock

Caz:
Are you town or scum? 

Hint: it's a trick question

Scu-...Town? Damn, almost got me there. Do you think that this question was worth the time it took to type it?

Get an AT gun and blow them all to pieces.

...'Them'? Not a very reassuring post.

(Cackles maniacally some more)

Also hello. I don't know why I need to elaborate on something with no meaning, just doing it for fun. Just imagine someone's face when you turn and laugh at them for no reason whatsoever, weird but funny. Or creepy. Depends on your point of view.

Yeah, definitely not filled with confidence. Can you do some real scumhunting, please? I'd be turning my vote to you if the "Never made it to D2" newb-protection field wasn't still in effect.


TDS

Why doesn't anyone have more questions for me?

Why don't you have questions for anyone else? Are you expecting us to do the work while you sit back and watch? Maybe my RVS vote on you was accurate after all.

Being watchman puts a target on you, but you can also hide to protect yourself. You do have a point about powerful roles, though, so (depending on specifics) I can see how some town players would not want to be the watchman.

This is true. I really hope people have considered this before declaring whether they want to be a lookout or not. Trying to weasel out of it just screams 'kill me!'.


Tiruin

But yeah, hi everyone! I will post tomorrow! Because fatigue x_x
Good game though

Come on, you didn't have time for one little question?

For when you get back: What do you think the level of activity in players has to say about their alignment, if anything?

Deathsword

Try to scumhunt more than anyone else. Hopefuly, that would make people think me as very much town and while that might make me a target to scum, laying low would also make me a prime night-kill target, since there'd be nothing indicating it was a scumkill.

Why would laying low make you a night-kill target? Don't scum like players that aren't doing anything?

Vivianus

I'm gonna admit that I would hide if I were lookout so, sorry. No

Anyone who doesn't want to be lookout will be hanged. Why would you hide during lookout?

flabort

My thoughts were it's better for a gun not to exist then it to exist in the hands of your enemy.

Guns will win the war.

(Though I am a big fan of the insanity vig, so take this with a cup of salt.)


Will re-read threads to cobble together some sort of Day1 reads post. Considering going full NQT and opening a spreadsheet. Hmmm.

[Deus Asmoth]

My vote for Shamrock is purely RVS.

Why is a random vote more worthy of a vote than TolyK, who you've FoS'd, or Scripten, who is eck, particularly since Scripten came pretty close to answering your question here:

I would hand it over to someone else. My reasons are mostly selfish, I just wanna live. Since scum might attack the lookout and I want to avoid being killed, I don't want the job. I would rather someone more experienced have it and possibly use it rather than me using it and possibly waste it by hiding when scum attack someone else.

[TheDarkStar]

@People asking about my TolyK read.

The problem is that you can't tell the motive.
Scum could easily just have a mafiakill and other ability, and use the lookout to scout everything out.

Actually, the more I think of it, it's much more dangerous to have a scum lookout since they don't need to hide at night.

I got it from this post (and a couple others on the same subject nearby).
I get that he's actually trying to think things through of what would be advantageous to scum, and trying to avoid it.
I dunno. Feels town-ish to me.

Hmm.
No Watch

If it's more likely that a lookout choice is town than scum, why do you want no watch?

My thoughts were it's better for a gun not to exist then it to exist in the hands of your enemy.
I mean, lookout isn't a gun, but it's better to not have one than for the lookout to be scum, which would happen if we voted the wrong person.

So in order to not vote the wrong person and give scum the lookout, No Watch until we're reasonably sure.

Same question as above.

Well, fuck. Pressed the post button by accident. Full post below

Mastahcheese:You neglected to answer this:

You seem to have missed that you could say you'd hide and then watch instead, though.

That would be lying. Why would you suggest this? It only encourages WIFOM.
If I asked you the same question, would you lie, and follow your own point?

No I wouldn't. Except your answer involved hypothetical scenarios, some in which you were scum. If you are ok with making hypothetical scenarios where you are scum, why are you uncomfortable to imagine ones where you lie, either as scum to deceive town or as town to preserve yourself? Even if you wouldn't actually do that.

However, I do agree that we should No Watch[/b]

Same question as above.

TDS

Why doesn't anyone have more questions for me?

Why don't you have questions for anyone else? Are you expecting us to do the work while you sit back and watch? Maybe my RVS vote on you was accurate after all.

Being watchman puts a target on you, but you can also hide to protect yourself. You do have a point about powerful roles, though, so (depending on specifics) I can see how some town players would not want to be the watchman.

This is true. I really hope people have considered this before declaring whether they want to be a lookout or not. Trying to weasel out of it just screams 'kill me!'.

I have questions for other people now. I wasn't able to get a good RVS question post, and RVS is nearing it's end if it has not already ended. Why do you find it so important that I ask RVS questions while there are also other people who haven't?

What do you think is the best way to handle deciding who should/shouldn't be voted on for Lookout?

[Caz]

I have questions for other people now. I wasn't able to get a good RVS question post, and RVS is nearing it's end if it has not already ended. Why do you find it so important that I ask RVS questions while there are also other people who haven't?

What do you think is the best way to handle deciding who should/shouldn't be voted on for Lookout?

I just thought it was strange that you made a post without asking any questions and trying to participate. I gave the same question to Tiruin, iirc. I'd also like Silithus to make an appearance and do something.

I think the lookout should be whoever seems to be doing the most scumhunting at the moment. Though it's day1 so the accuracy isn't guaranteed, but those are the breaks. Like you said, we're still more likely to pick a town player as the lookout than the scum, simply because of numbers. I agree that having no lookout is a bad idea, even if it wasn't impossible due to the rules of the setup.

[flabort]

Well, since it turns out that we can't do that anyways, the question is moot. But! This is a bastard mod where anything can happen; putting someone on lookout could retcon their alignment or something crazy like that.
However, assuming 4mask is telling the truth about how lookout works, there's little reason to trust anyone. Given a purely random pick and a normal number of town and scum, then there's a good chance of hitting town, yes; but considering scum have a way of appearing trust-worthy as often as town are trustworthy, and scum would certainly vote for their own team-mates, there's a higher chance that if we reach an agreement, then we'd probably agree to elect a scum, due to scum's magnetism and coordination.

[Caz]

Well, since it turns out that we can't do that anyways, the question is moot. But! This is a bastard mod where anything can happen; putting someone on lookout could retcon their alignment or something crazy like that.
However, assuming 4mask is telling the truth about how lookout works, there's little reason to trust anyone. Given a purely random pick and a normal number of town and scum, then there's a good chance of hitting town, yes; but considering scum have a way of appearing trust-worthy as often as town are trustworthy, and scum would certainly vote for their own team-mates, there's a higher chance that if we reach an agreement, then we'd probably agree to elect a scum, due to scum's magnetism and coordination.

What? If this were true, lynching would be useless and town would lose all games.

[Deus Asmoth]

Well, since it turns out that we can't do that anyways, the question is moot. But! This is a bastard mod where anything can happen; putting someone on lookout could retcon their alignment or something crazy like that.
However, assuming 4mask is telling the truth about how lookout works, there's little reason to trust anyone. Given a purely random pick and a normal number of town and scum, then there's a good chance of hitting town, yes; but considering scum have a way of appearing trust-worthy as often as town are trustworthy, and scum would certainly vote for their own team-mates, there's a higher chance that if we reach an agreement, then we'd probably agree to elect a scum, due to scum's magnetism and coordination.

If that's what you believe, then surely all you have to do is not believe what the lookout tells you happened the next day if you don't trust them?

[TolyK]

Clarification: I was talking about buddying me, not Caz. I'm not sure where you folks got that, but I only highlighted my own name since I'm selfish that way ().

TolyK:

TolyK- Seems particuraly wary of scum tactics. Slight town lean.

...
What.
How.
...
You got that in one post?
...
Mastahcheese seems particularly interested in seeing active and preceptive and all-around scumhunting town.
When really, he's buddying a person who hasn't posted ANYTHING of interest yet other than a thought that isn't even mentioned in his post.
...
So, can you please pick apart my posts and say where you got that? Not much I'm asking for here.

He wrote down his first impression and you're calling it premature. I don't see how he's scum or why he's buddying you more than anyone else that he thinks is town (upon reading, this is Caz). Why is he buddying and why isn't he "seeing active and preceptive and all-around scumhunting town"?

seeming*

See: below, but tl;dr: I didn't agree with his read on me (it seemed dubious), so I pressured him on it.

TolyK: Your heated counterattack seems borderline OMGUS. Your motives are questionable. Such a heated defense would seem scummy, for a simple D1 read. Are you scum trying to RIA? Explain how mastacheese is buddying with Caz other than RVS vote.

Hold on a sec.
OMGUS for him calling me slightly town?
OMGUS for defending myself... against what?
Are you reading his posts and/or mine? He called me slightly town for a reason that I didn't agree with, so I pressured him about it.
Also, I'm not saying he's buddying with Caz, where'd you get that?
I was saying he's buddying with ME, since he was saying I was town for no apparent reason.

Finally, RE:both, see the disclaimer at the bottom of my previous post post. I deliberately used strong accusatory language to get my point of what was wrong out.

@People asking about my TolyK read.

The problem is that you can't tell the motive.
Scum could easily just have a mafiakill and other ability, and use the lookout to scout everything out.

Actually, the more I think of it, it's much more dangerous to have a scum lookout since they don't need to hide at night.

I got it from this post (and a couple others on the same subject nearby).
I get that he's actually trying to think things through of what would be advantageous to scum, and trying to avoid it.
I dunno. Feels town-ish to me.

Hmm.
No Watch

The problem with this reasoning is that I gave a strictly logical answer. Since we don't know who scum is, it wouldn't matter if I said this if I were scum and you didn't know who was. That's what set off my alarm bells.

mastah, do you think there's any point in going after people who have shaky logic? Hint: loaded question.

[Vivalas]

TolyK- Seems particuraly wary of scum tactics. Slight town lean.

...
What.
How.
...
You got that in one post?
...
Mastahcheese seems particularly interested in seeing active and preceptive and all-around scumhunting town.
When really, he's buddying a person who hasn't posted ANYTHING of interest yet other than a thought that isn't even mentioned in his post.
...
So, can you please pick apart my posts and say where you got that? Not much I'm asking for here.

(A bit exaggerated, of course, but that's the butt of my accusation).

Deathsword:1.  This was the post I was referring too. And whoops, I misread the town part to be scum, but now it seems even worse. Attacking someone who says you're town seems scummy to me, like they're trying to appear open and innocent.

2. Yes, I've admitted I'm that I am new, and I even said you can grind on me for that. Sure, I misread the question, but you seemed to be the most offput by my remark against TolyK, why?

Caz:
Please refer me to where we agreed that we would be lynched by hiding during watch. I gathered that the action was somewhat justifiable.

[Vivalas]

@everyone If you really must know, eck in that case implied I was slightly put off by the Scripten-Perseus exchange. Not really enough to warrant a vote or further investigation, since they later cleared it up.

TolyK:
Why are you so offended about the possibility of being considered town?

[Vivalas]

Unvote Shamrock

Vote TolyK

[Persus13]

Vivalas: There's a thing that scum sometimes do called buddying, where they say they agree with and trust, or in general try to be friendly to another player so that that player will trust the scum player and think they're town. It also means that if that scum player dies or is lynched, then people will be more suspicious of the town player the scum player was buddying, and less suspicious of the actual scumteam. This might help you in understanding why TolyK is voting mastahcheese.

Also, I recommend, if you haven't already, reading some previous games on this forum. I can't think of some good recent games for you to check out off the top of my head, but I know someone else will know some good ones.

TolyK: Are you voting mastahcheese solely for having a town read on you, or do you have other reasons for your vote?

[Teneb]

Deathsword

Try to scumhunt more than anyone else. Hopefuly, that would make people think me as very much town and while that might make me a target to scum, laying low would also make me a prime night-kill target, since there'd be nothing indicating it was a scumkill.

Why would laying low make you a night-kill target? Don't scum like players that aren't doing anything?

Whenever I play scum, I tend to go for low-activity targets as night-kill targets, because, since they acted so little, there is very little interaction with them for anyone to trace it back to me. Killing high-activity players is far riskier, as they are probably attacking you or your scumbuddies, and it looks bad if they die while attacking someone.

If it's more likely that a lookout choice is town than scum, why do you want no watch?

I wanted to know what would happen. I am also blind and didn't see the 4maskwolf's post.

Vivalas: You conveniently didn't answer most of my questions. For your convenience, here they are:

I'm gonna admit that I would hide if I were lookout so, sorry. No

I can't vote either for that matter since I am still trying to figure out who to trust.

Scum aren't gonna want people to see their first action of the game of course.

First you say you won't vote since you are trying to figure out who to trust... how exactly? By doing nothing?

Do you mean the one at the beginning of the game? I think it was rather eck for Scripten to attack Perseus for attacking Mastacheese.

What is even "eck". And why is it... "eck" for Scripten to do that?

Comrade Shamrock


Comrade Shamrock: If you were lookout would you hide?

Why do you do an RVS post clearly past RVS phase? Especially when you have a perfectly good lead with Scripten attacking Persus?

And then there is... this:

@everyone If you really must know, eck in that case implied I was slightly put off by the Scripten-Perseus exchange. Not really enough to warrant a vote or further investigation, since they later cleared it up.

TolyK:
Why are you so offended about the possibility of being considered town?

Followed by a vote. Scum can buddy up to others, as Persus mentioned. If I call you town, then am I completely and utterly cleared in your eyes? Because if not, you are going against your own logic.

[Comrade Shamrock]

Scripten:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Comrade Shamrock

Get an AT gun and blow them all to pieces. Not the exact phrasing but I'm sure you can work it out from there. If you're curious as to why I want to live. I want to get to D2, never been in D2 so I hope it's fun.

It's fun enough. Are you town, Comrade, or are you a third party?

Town

Besides why did you think I would claim third party? I can conjure to mind only one role that it might be beneficial: survivor. Is there any others you can think of?

Persus:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Congrats, you're now the Mafia Psychologist for that question to Scripten.

Awesome just the look I was going for.

I would like to be the kind that kills everyone N1. Because I hate third party killing roles because they're messy. With scum, you've at least got a friend to run circles around the town and laugh about how clueless the town is. I've played one game as SK and I essentially played as if I was a town vig and killed my scum suspects and got caught out by one of the scum faking a claim that he saw me kill someone leading me to admit I was an SK (well, sort of). I then won the game for town by killing my scum suspect.

We'd all love that role. But not what I was going for. So if you had to pick a conventional third party killing what would it be?

However, I do trust Caz a little more than I do the otherwise-leading candidate for Lookout, because Scripten and Persus are generating some very large posts of back-and-forth this early during RVS, not that the generation of conversation itself is bad; it's just the way they are going about it seems to be that both are determined to peg the other as being scummy.

Interesting. There are 13 players. Minus the 2 you don't want to pick, so that leaves 11. Out of these you have chosen Caz over yourself. You know your alignment but possibly have no clue about Caz. Why not Tiruin or Silthuri? They are just as good a candidate as the one you have suggested. Why is Caz above them?

Why did you suggest Tiruin and Silthuri, especially considering neither one had posted at the time you asked this?

For precisely that reason. Caz hadn't posted by when Flabort voted so similar examples were preferred.

Deus:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Comrade, which of your questions should Scripten be taking more seriously? The tone of your posts has been pretty light hearted so far.

Pretty much all of them. My posts have been lighthearted but so far I have answered questions seriously. If not which do you consider joking responses to questions?

Shamrock, are you waiting until day two to start making serious posts?

Nope, some already exist.

Reads:
Shamrock: Certainly has unusual methods of questioning. His posts seem to lack any actual content, making me think they're there just to avoid accusations of lurking and the weirdness of his questions look like RiA. Leaning to scum. Sorry, Comrade.

It's quite alright. If you think I'm bad I expect you to go for it. But could you point out the complete lack of content.

mastahcheese:
(Cackles maniacally)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Comrade Shamrock- Lean insane.

Thanks I work hard to cultivate my air of insanity.

Comrade Shamrock-  Acts somewhat erratically.

The day you become predictable is the day you die.

Caz:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Caz:
Are you town or scum? 

Hint: it's a trick question

Scu-...Town? Damn, almost got me there. Do you think that this question was worth the time it took to type it?

Yes. You're annoyed by it but are not pushing a  case over my absolute uselessness, so you're not scum who wants to circle for an easy kill. You also took the time to tell me to do something productive so you don't want me to continue in a useless mode so you don't want people running around like headless chickens, which means you're not looking to make scum life easier in this vein.

So I think this amounts to you getting a higher evaluation of town in my eyes. But of course you could also trying to look town by telling me to get off my backside and not just to me. So don't worry I haven't ruled you out.

Get an AT gun and blow them all to pieces.

...'Them'? Not a very reassuring post.

What's wrong with "them". I assume there's more than one scum. Seems reasonable based on the numbers.

Yeah, definitely not filled with confidence. Can you do some real scumhunting, please? I'd be turning my vote to you if the "Never made it to D2" newb-protection field wasn't still in effect.

Please don't let your "protect the newb" feelings get in the way. If you think I'm worth the vote go for it.

Vivalas:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Comrade Shamrock: If you were lookout would you hide?

Yes

I want to live so I would take any chance I've got.

Why are you voting Tolyk? Lay it out for us.

Silthuri and Tiruin

Hello, anyone home?

Please point out if I missed anything.
Unvote

[Scripten]

Geez, you guys have been busy. I'll be back tomorrow morning with a recap and I'll try to touch on all the questions directed at me. While I get some sleep, though, let us consider the following.

Dayvig: Caz

(Note: Role doesn't indicate that dayvig ends the day, so feel free to discuss. )