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[borno]

Tiruin:

PFP, also second half of my big post up there cont'd.

Tiruin:
Glad to see you here.

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

borno: Why, exactly, are you voting for tn? Compared to everyone else, why him?

Because, as I've stated before, he's refusing to defend. I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.

Did you ask him these things based on your observations?

Yes. I saw he was scummy, he refused to defend, and so I asked him to defend, if that was what you were asking. I feel like I may have misinterpreted your question somehow, though.

[borno]

EBWOP:
Deathsword:

Borno: How much do you think you've learned about the game since those BMs so many(two, I think) years ago? What are your reads on the ICs?

Sorry, I was sure that I had missed a question somewhere, and I was right. I think that what I learned most from my previous mafia experiences is to keep calm, as anger just gets in the way of things.
On the ICs: I don't think they've really done anything to give me much of a read. Jack A T has been helpful and active, but that's his job as an IC. For Tiruin I'm still waiting before she posts more before making a definite read.

[RangerCado]

...I kinda... forgot about this... I feel bad.

-snip-

Borno: I still don't see how thats buddying. I felt no attempt at trying to win my favor with that. Therefore, I didn't call him out on it which means its not really buddying.

To borno: I really don't think personally that tn5421 was buddying rangercado, if they were buddies why would rangercado accuse tn5421 in the first place?

Kansa: Oh theres MANY reasons too. Deflection, diversion, to avoid seeming like there is buddying going on. The list goes on of potential reasons I WOULD do so if I were scum. Busing is also a thing.

Well, I guess if they flip scum then the person they were... whatever the term ising will be cast under suspicion. But right now, it's not really affecting my read of him. I'm just noting it in case tn5421 ever dies and flips scum.

borno: This, the bolded especially, makes me suspicious. You've been pushing for a lynch against tn5421 for most of the day, but this makes me believe that you don't think that others will either A: See his scumminess, of B: You don't fully think he's scummy. Thoughts?

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

Tiruin: My biggest thing has always been trying to find the reasoning behind odd behavior by players in a game. Not all can be scum, and a lot of the time, this behavior has a reason and positive motif. Its difficult to catch the hidden reasons, rather than the obvious 'this is weird, press cause it might be scummy!' mentality.

Cado: How scummy do you consider buddying to be, seeing as there were accusations you were involved in the act?

Death: You'd have to take it on a case by case basis a lot of the time, but in a beginners game? I would say a lot smaller than in other games for the simple fact that someone in a different and unfamiliar environment is likely to try and find a friend or ally they can get to trust them that will help them out a bit. Its like when you go to a new school and the first thing you do is try and find your old friends, or attempt to find a new one. If it were anything BUT a beginners game, I would be more suspicious. And I still don't think he was in fact trying to buddy me.

Whats your take on buddying, if I may ask as well?

I await Tiruin's big post for more information, TheDarkStar's reads explanation, and some more activity from the replacements.

[LARD]

A few questions:
*You seem rather nervous about my vote.  What is it about that vote, when nobody else had been voting you/your predecessor, that made you so nervous about it?
*What are your reads on players other than me, tn5421, and borno?
*You stated around the start of your post that you suspect tn5421 the most due to his breakdown under fire.  However, later in your post, you write this as part of your attack on borno (formatting added by me):

This is also a bad thing. He [tn5421] has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

The underlined sentence is written with the assumption that he is town, and you downplay the issue of tn5421's breakdown under fire, saying his play is "typical of depressed new player under fire."  You also push for borno to not vote tn5421, based on that, while mildly saying you think tn is scum.

Please explain.  Please also give more detail regarding your thoughts on tn and borno.

I was nervous about your vote because as the IC and the most active player, people tend to listen to you and whether they admit it or not, people listen to your opinions about who is scum as well as how to play the game.

My point was that I like to have unbalancing forces in the game, such as an edgy player like tn5421.  I didn't vote him even though I think he's scum because of this and that he seems like he could learn a lot from surviving.  People don't learn if you kill them straight away.  That being said, I had forgotten that borno is quite a new player (right?) and so it was rather unkind of me to vote like that. That being said, he is quite eloquent and is playing well, so I consider him a more valid target.

The borno and tn situation could mean one of a few things,
1. tn is scum and just getting used to it. If that is the case, then the breakdown under pressure makes sense.
2. borno is scum and targeting the easy player. Personally I find this more likely just due to the fact that the play-style of tn is more typical of a depressed new player (see KM IV) than of a scum, but it is so hard to tell.
3. neither of them are scum. Just borno targeting a suspicious person and things happening the way they should. I don't think this is likely, but it sure is more likely than point 4.

The third point was just me asking borno to reconsider the usefulness of his vote.  He is attacking the easy target and tunneled on him until it became clear that others disapproved of it.

Spoiler: My previous mafia experience (click to show/hide)

 I have played one BM here, (BM XLV, the terminators town win, me lynched) and also a ton of the game "The Resistance" by indie boards and cards.  I think I'm okay at the game, but perhaps not with the house rules.

Now to Borno
1. You are correct, it isn't an OMGUS, my apologies. That was just a bit of pressure from me about you being overly defensive.
2. I still disagree that the most useful place for your vote is on tn5421. (tn5421  if you are reading this, prove me wrong, please.)
3. tn5421 is just being a bit overdefensive, and I don't think that it's a scumtell.  We find the scumtells later by how people respond to him.

Reads and stuff if no read, just assume null because of likely low activity
Kansa: posting short things and mostly just answering questions. Like he's not fishing for information.
Tiruin: No idea what to make of her, just massive piles of post to sift through.  My last game I tried to lead a lynch on her only to find she wasn't scum. Such is life.  I generally get reads on people when they start specifying their attacks.
RangerCado: poking around nicely, (PPE)haven't seen around lately to respond to new info. Just answering questions as well. I dunno.

How about a dangerous question to everybody: If you were scum, who would you nightkill?
The reasoning behind this is this: the favored targets can give reads and stuff, we get d2 accusation material, and the mafia will likely get nothing from people's responses. 

MOWE: sorry to bug you, but the title of the thread still has replacement needed on it, and I think I filled the last slot. Cheers!

Thank you everyone for your explanations.

[RangerCado]

LARD: The obvious targets are the ICs, but at this point right now? tn5421 or borno if either survived. This would likely cause exactly what the scum team want, confusion and mistrust among the town into Second guessing eachother. This also leaves people trying to discover a new person to read, or may cause others to jump to false conclusions. Just what scum want. The risk in this situation for the scum if they do that is that they get rid of a target they could attempt to start a bandwagon on, but I think the benefit for scum would be higher than the risk.

And its only fair you answer the question yourself.

Also, I did throw in a couple questions there, but I need Tiruin's finished reads list and TDS's reads explanation for more digging of current information.

[Silthuri]

MOWE: sorry to bug you, but the title of the thread still has replacement needed on it, and I think I filled the last slot. Cheers!

I did change it not long after you replaced in. When you begin a post by quoting another, your post has that same title. That's why your post has the old title.

[LARD]

Right, of course the IC's, but in a beginner game if there is a jailkeeper, I would want him to know who to protect.
I would kill Jack

[borno]

RangerCado:

-snip-

Borno: I still don't see how thats buddying. I felt no attempt at trying to win my favor with that. Therefore, I didn't call him out on it which means its not really buddying.

Yes, as clarified earlier, I misused the term 'buddying'.

Well, I guess if they flip scum then the person they were... whatever the term ising will be cast under suspicion. But right now, it's not really affecting my read of him. I'm just noting it in case tn5421 ever dies and flips scum.

borno: This, the bolded especially, makes me suspicious. You've been pushing for a lynch against tn5421 for most of the day, but this makes me believe that you don't think that others will either A: See his scumminess, of B: You don't fully think he's scummy. Thoughts?

Well, according to the votecount, no, no-one else sees his scuminess. I put that in there because many people believe that he is just a 'misguided townie' or whatever, and certainly not scum.
LARD:

-snip-
*What are your reads on players other than me, tn5421, and borno?
*You stated around the start of your post that you suspect tn5421 the most due to his breakdown under fire.  However, later in your post, you write this as part of your attack on borno (formatting added by me):

This is also a bad thing. He [tn5421] has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

The underlined sentence is written with the assumption that he is town, and you downplay the issue of tn5421's breakdown under fire, saying his play is "typical of depressed new player under fire."  You also push for borno to not vote tn5421, based on that, while mildly saying you think tn is scum.

My point was that I like to have unbalancing forces in the game, such as an edgy player like tn5421.  I didn't vote him even though I think he's scum because of this and that he seems like he could learn a lot from surviving.  People don't learn if you kill them straight away.  That being said, I had forgotten that borno is quite a new player (right?) and so it was rather unkind of me to vote like that. That being said, he is quite eloquent and is playing well, so I consider him a more valid target.

Actually I played mafia on these forums two years ago, but then I mysteriously disappeared. So technically I wouldn't consider myself a 'new' player, but I'm still coming to terms with some things I've forgotten.

The third point was just me asking borno to reconsider the usefulness of his vote.  He is attacking the easy target and tunneled on him until it became clear that others disapproved of it.

No, I attacked him until he kept on refusing to defend himself, and then stopped but didn't remove my vote to try and pressure him into action. I don't believe I was tunneling; there was just not much I considered immediately scummy.

How about a dangerous question to everybody: If you were scum, who would you nightkill?
The reasoning behind this is this: the favored targets can give reads and stuff, we get d2 accusation material, and the mafia will likely get nothing from people's responses. 

If I was scum I would also kill Jack A T. This is because he is giving lots of helpful advice and being a strong player, and an IC. I would likely not choose Tiruin as she has been less active and therefore helpful.

Now to Borno
1. You are correct, it isn't an OMGUS, my apologies. That was just a bit of pressure from me about you being overly defensive.
2. I still disagree that the most useful place for your vote is on tn5421. (tn5421  if you are reading this, prove me wrong, please.)
3. tn5421 is just being a bit overdefensive, and I don't think that it's a scumtell.  We find the scumtells later by how people respond to him.

Again, I don't think I'm being overly defensive. See my previous post. Why do you think that me defending myself normally is suddenly being overly defensive?
You still disagree? But the only people you seem to think are scummy are tn5421 and myself, right? And so since I'm not going to vote for myself, I'll keep my vote on tn5421 until he gives me a good enough reason to take it off. And why do you ask tn5421 to prove you wrong? Wouldn't it be in his best interests to prove you right?
Wait wait wait what? You're voting me because I'm being 'overly defensive' and voting tn5421 for several reasons, one of which is him being overly defensive... Yet you say that for him being 'a bit overdefensive' isn't a scumtell? Why is it a scumtell for me then? This sounds like some serious chainsaw defending. Please, LARD, explain why over defensiveness is a scumtell for tn5421 but not for me. Explain how you 'know' that he's just a confused townie, despite saying he's pretty scummy. Explain why you keep defending him even when he refuses to defend himself.

[Jack A T]

Well.  Tiruin's in the middle of posting her reads, Deathsword doesn't have stated reads yet (or much at all, really), and TheDarkStar still needs to post the reasons he said he'll post.  And the day ends in less than 24 hours.  Yay.
LARD: In response to your question, a scumkill would be something both team members would help decide on.  I would likely push for killing Tiruin (stopping a skilled player from significantly influencing the town) or tn5421 (getting TheDarkStar away from me).  Of course, now that I've written this, a theoretical scum me might push for anyone but those two (the iocane-tainted wine being likely in front of me).

I did a quick read through and I think that tn5421 is still the most likely scum because of the way he freaked out so much when a bit of pressure was put on him.

The borno and tn situation could mean one of a few things,
1. tn is scum and just getting used to it. If that is the case, then the breakdown under pressure makes sense.
2. borno is scum and targeting the easy player. Personally I find this more likely just due to the fact that the play-style of tn is more typical of a depressed new player (see KM IV) than of a scum, but it is so hard to tell.
3. neither of them are scum. Just borno targeting a suspicious person and things happening the way they should. I don't think this is likely, but it sure is more likely than point 4.

So, just to be clear, you think tn5421 is the most likely player to be scum.  However, you think that it is more likely that tn5421 is town and borno is scum.  Yet borno is your second scumpick, and is less likely to be scum than tn5421, who is less likely to be scum than borno.

...What exactly are your scumpicks?  Is there a reason you seem to be having trouble keeping your thoughts straight?
Borno: So, one of your recent posts got me to look back at your activity so far, and I'm noticing an interesting pattern of actions.

See, back when public opinion was turning strongly towards lynching tn5421, you explicitly thought he was scum.  Since public opinion shifted against a tn5421 lynch, you've eased off from saying you think he's scum and have stuck to saying that he does things that make him look scummy.

But that would mean little on its own.  People have different writing styles, and non-committal writing sometimes pops up.  A case couldn't reasonably be made on that alone.

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

Thing is, we're reaching the end of the day, and you're posting stuff like this.  You're doing the "and that's a scumtell!" thing newbies often do to convince people of their arguments against their lynch targets, and you're doing it even more gratuitously than it is usually done.  You're trying to get attention on tn5421 by pointing out scummy actions.  Yet...

I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.
[...]
How's that a bad thing? And it's a pressure vote; it is in the most useful place it can be. Unless if you have someone in mind who I should be voting? If he gets lynched for stubbornly refusing to defend himself, so be it.

... you refuse to commit, and distance yourself from the idea that you want tn dead.  Your vote is now a pressure vote, to get tn to act.  Oh, you'd be fine, absolutely fine, with tn5421 being lynched for the inaction and actions you point out, but you're clearly not trying to lynch him or anything.  You're just pressuring him.

You want people voting tn5421.  You want them off you and on tn5421, but you don't want to be seen as the one leading the lynch of tn5421.  The initial push, not led by you, would have been great for you, but now you are nearly alone against tn.  You want him dead, but you don't want to lead the lynch.

So.  I have a few questions for you, borno: Is tn5421 scum?  If so, why avoid actively pushing for his lynch?  Why focus on a "pressure vote" near the end of the day?

PPE:

Well, according to the votecount, no, no-one else sees his scuminess. I put that in there because many people believe that he is just a 'misguided townie' or whatever, and certainly not scum.
[...]
No, I attacked him until he kept on refusing to defend himself, and then stopped but didn't remove my vote to try and pressure him into action.

Oh, hey, an announcement that people are missing how scummy tn5421 is, with an implication that if they noticed, they'd be voting for him.  Of course, it's soon followed by a reiteration of your position that your goal for your vote is to pressure tn5421 into acting.
MyOwnWorstEnemy: Warn Kansa.  He has not posted for over 70 hours.

[Silthuri]

Votecount:

• LARD:
• borno: tn5421, RangerCado, LARD, Jack A T (4)
• TheDarkStar:
• Deathsword:
• tn5421: borno (1)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, Deathsword, TheDarkStar

Day ends tomorrow at 7 pm EST (about 21 hours from now)
There are no more extends available for today!

Kansa has been prodded/warned.

[borno]

Jack A T:

Borno: So, one of your recent posts got me to look back at your activity so far, and I'm noticing an interesting pattern of actions.

See, back when public opinion was turning strongly towards lynching tn5421, you explicitly thought he was scum.  Since public opinion shifted against a tn5421 lynch, you've eased off from saying you think he's scum and have stuck to saying that he does things that make him look scummy.

Firstly, two other people isn't 'public opinion' to me. Secondly, isn't doing scummy stuff and being scum one and the same? I admit that I have laid off attacking him as hard as usual for two reasons: He refuses to defend himself, and the revelation of the possibility that he isn't scum, but confused town. Until he posts more I have no way of telling which one he is, so at times I may be wishy-washy.

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

Thing is, we're reaching the end of the day, and you're posting stuff like this.  You're doing the "and that's a scumtell!" thing newbies often do to convince people of their arguments against their lynch targets, and you're doing it even more gratuitously than it is usually done.  You're trying to get attention on tn5421 by pointing out scummy actions.  Yet...

I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.
[...]
How's that a bad thing? And it's a pressure vote; it is in the most useful place it can be. Unless if you have someone in mind who I should be voting? If he gets lynched for stubbornly refusing to defend himself, so be it.

... you refuse to commit, and distance yourself from the idea that you want tn dead.  Your vote is now a pressure vote, to get tn to act.  Oh, you'd be fine, absolutely fine, with tn5421 being lynched for the inaction and actions you point out, but you're clearly not trying to lynch him or anything.  You're just pressuring him.

You want people voting tn5421.  You want them off you and on tn5421, but you don't want to be seen as the one leading the lynch of tn5421.  The initial push, not led by you, would have been great for you, but now you are nearly alone against tn.  You want him dead, but you don't want to lead the lynch.

So.  I have a few questions for you, borno: Is tn5421 scum?  If so, why avoid actively pushing for his lynch?  Why focus on a "pressure vote" near the end of the day?

If you want me to be honest, I had no idea that it's the end of the day today. It's a public holiday over here, so my silly brain assumed that it was Saturday, and the lynch next week.  Sorry. If I had known, I would have taken a much more aggressive stance against tn5421 for not defending himself for the whole day. I think that tn5421 is, indeed scum, I want to lynch him and I'm fine with being seen as the lynch leader. For your other questions, please see before.

PPE:

Well, according to the votecount, no, no-one else sees his scuminess. I put that in there because many people believe that he is just a 'misguided townie' or whatever, and certainly not scum.
[...]
No, I attacked him until he kept on refusing to defend himself, and then stopped but didn't remove my vote to try and pressure him into action.

Oh, hey, an announcement that people are missing how scummy tn5421 is, with an implication that if they noticed, they'd be voting for him.  Of course, it's soon followed by a reiteration of your position that your goal for your vote is to pressure tn5421 into acting.

Again, no idea that it was the end of the day today. I apologise. I know that pressure votes have no place at the end of the day, and so I'm switching it into a dead-serious vote.
Here's my case in full against tn5421:

Spoiler: borno's case against tn5421 (click to show/hide)

@Jack A T: I would be highly suspicious of reply #80 if you weren't an IC.  Being super bold just makes you the primary target for a nightkill.

Firstly, he states that Jack A T is suspicious for giving IC advice. Not a case on its own, but gives early insight into tn5421's aggressive, trouble-brewing nature.

@borno, #98: No.  No.  We are NOT in lylo.  There are 2 scum / 7 town as per the setup.  I do not like this post at all.

Vote: borno

But please tell us how we are in LYLO on day one.

Then he attacks me for asking a hypothetical question. This is where I start to think that he is scum, as he once again all he is doing is trying to stir up trouble with a nonsensical question.

You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

Then, when Jack A T votes him for his behaviour, he suddenly just gives up and refuses to make any sort of defence.

@All: You bitch about me playing cautiously, then immediately jump on my wagon when I start to make aggressive posts.
Fuck.  You.

@Kansa: He was attempting to panic the townsfolk, which is an action that primarily advances the scum wincon.  I don't see the need to defend myself at this point in the game, as the people that are voting me are doing so for mainly nonsensical reasons.  Except for RangerCado, I think.

The reality is that if you're stupid enough to lynch me, you deserve to lose my support anyway.

That is a perfectly acceptable situation for me anyway, because it means I can avoid a wall-war with people that are just going to throw the game anyway.

He then gets really mad at the three people voting him, and again refuses to defend himself-except with a single hypocritical statement and insults to the people attacking him.

Also, apparently being on the verge of being lynched is 'the perfectly acceptable' for him.

tn5421:

@borno: Wow, no questions to me.  The insult cuts deep.

Sorry, friend.
It is lylo, and the votes are tied. One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Please tell me ALL ABOUT how its a question.  I will redirect you to the seafront property in Kansas.

We both know I'm conftown, since your role pm told you who your scumbuddy was, I don't understand why you think you can keep this pretence of legitimacy up.

Nice twisting my words, by the way.  I firmly stated my desire to not play with idiots, because it's not fun in the slightest.

As to why I don't need to defend myself; all you're going to do is twist anything I could possibly say until its barely recognizable anymore, so why should I feed the troll?

Again, more insults and a baseless accusation that I'm scum. And apparently my hypothetical question wasn't a question but instead a statement. Huh. Also, more refusing to defend himself.

You'll see more of this later.

It is lylo, and the votes are tied.

is not a question.  He keeps trying to frame it as a question because he knows I caught him out on a lie and is trying to cover it up by attacking me.  Granted, I made it easier by deciding to play a bit different than I normally do.  He also never connected the statements in any meaningful way.

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Should have been this:

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active.  You are in LYLO.  Who do you choose to lynch?

Here he helpfully outlines his case against me: A badly worded(?) statement. And that's it, apparently.

@Fniff: That's alright, Mafia isn't for everyone.  I got off on a bad foot because I was already mad as a hare about mafiascum having server problems (they've been down for 2-3 days now) and borno walks in with his half-assed logic thinking he can lead town into mislynches.

Here he 'explains' his aggressiveness-mafiascum's server issues. More insulting of the person attacking him than actually trying to defend himself.

Read this like you would a play, the name is the person talking, because I'm not doing 5+ quote tags.

Jack A T: Where's the scumminess in giving mass advice to be bold and take action to hunt scum?

tn5421: Because I'm the one that takes this advice, and I'm always mislynched early in the game for it.

Jack A T: (Are you speaking from personal experience here?)

tn5421: Yes.

Jack A T: Was this what you thought about the lines I asked about when you voted Tiruin?  If not, what did you think?

tn5421: IMO, being busy IRL is an acceptable excuse to not have time to post, but not an acceptable excuse to dodge questions.  I still want the question answered by Tiruin when she is done with IRL stuff.

...
Jack A T: ...so?  Where's the scumminess?  Why would scum be more likely than town to say incorrect things about LYLO day 1 in a BM?

tn5421: He wants to find out how town will play if the game goes to LYLO, so he can adopt his playstyle with leisure in a (more) successful effort to seem town.  In essence, letting people answer this will enable him to blend in more, which isn't something town should want.

Jack A T: Don't say things like this.  It doesn't help you win, whether you're town or scum.  In fact, it tends to make you look worse.

A better defense strategy is to respond to the attacks against you while actively scumhunting.

tn5421: I don't see why I should care, he's hell bent on scumpainting me and its not like anything I say will be believed until I flip town anyway.

Once again refuses to defend himself, and claims that nothing he says will be believed until he dies.

It's not like scum!borno is even innovating at all, this is a play I've seen dozens of times.

It's not like he's even innovating at all, this is a post from him I've seen dozens of times: Nothing but insulting and baseless accusations.

Jack A T: *Attempts to be aggressive tended to get you killed.

tn5421: On day one, at that.

Jack A T: *When seeing advice to be aggressive/bold in Bay 12 (a place that does like aggression and boldness), you were suspicious due to prior mafia... trauma, I guess works as a word here.  This suspicion is crap.

tn5421: No, the format is crap and you ask for people to misunderstand you.

Jack A T: *After enough pressure, you decided to try aggression.

tn5421: Because I'll be lynched if I don't.  Incidentially, I'll be lynched if I do, as well.  Catch 22 much?

Jack A T: *... by creating a terrible case.

tn5421: Nobody seems to want to post so what evidence am I supposed to use, exactly?

Jack A T: *You're also angry, due in part to MafiaScum having server issues.

tn5421: Yeah, I queued for a couple of small, fun games (5p vengeful and stuff like that) just to kick back and have a bit of fun, and the server goes down.

Jack A T: *You're even angrier, due to perceiving the backlash against your case as the anti-aggression murderiness you remember from early games.

tn5421: See Catch 22.

Jack A T: *Running on anger, you've started repeatedly firing everything you have at your feet.

tn5421: If everyone is going to suspect me no matter what I do then why even play in the first place, because it is certainly not fun for me in the slightest right now.

@borno: Why should I waste 15 or more minutes of my life reading your scumpainting post?

I prefer to give the setting before the situation

Then maybe you should make it obvious that you're doing so.

Says that he refuses to read my post. That explains a lot, including why he got negative attention in the first case: The refusal to read posts properly. He also does his usual act of portraying himself as a poor, alone townie who has everything they say turned against him.

There is no need for me to do so; you have already decided that I'm guilty, and no defense would stop you from seeing me lynched anyway.

Apparently tn5421 can dictate what I think, and so refuses to defend more because I have already decided that he's guilty. What he fails to realise is that, by now, this is the major reason why I'm voting him in the first place.

@RangerCado: The defender is always wrong, and the attacker is always right in the eyes of public opinion.

He makes another nonsensical excuse for not defending himself.

@Kansa: But you'll notice I'm on everyones 'suspicious' list.

@RangerCado: Except I didn't have problems playing as scum.

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

More pathetic excuses. He claims that scumtells are all intentional and asks why he would drop one on purpose.

Because I don't really care about this game's outcome, borno.

He doesn't post anything meaningful for a while, but then this. He's going to throw the game because he doesn't really care about its outcome in any case. Honestly, if he is town then this is the worst town play I've seen.
And then he makes one or two more posts and doesn't reply again.

He has been lurky, aggressive and trouble-stirring for the whole game. He refuses to defend himself, and when he does they are short, meaningless defences. He plays the 'confused townie' card well, and has apparently managed to convince everyone of his alleged innocence. He is throwing the game for himself and his team, and then sits back and relaxes as the person attacking himself gets voted. He is insulting and aggressive to anyone who remotely suspects him, and as the tiniest bit of pressure is put onto him he lashes out. And calls the person attacking him scum. Therefore, I say that he is scum and deserves to hang.

[LARD]

Nah Jack, my thoughts are straight and here they are in simplified.
Borno seems to me like a fairly experienced player playing scum.
tn5421 seems to me like a rather twitchy player, possibly indicating scum, but more likely indicating unfamiliarity with this forum's playstyle. In any case, he will be useful to stir things up and get reactions, just like I was in my first game.
Sorry, no time to respond further.

[borno]

LARD:

Borno seems to me like a fairly experienced player playing scum.

Wrong on both, sorry. Also, please could you respond to my response sometime today? That would be helpful.

[tn5421]

Post 218 makes for interesting reading.

I can't believe borno actually went and made a case.
These are all quotes from borno's case, but I'm too lazy to link every single one of them.

Reply # 220, http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5323991#msg5323991

Firstly, he states that Jack A T is suspicious for giving IC advice. Not a case on its own, but gives early insight into tn5421's aggressive, trouble-brewing nature.

Aggression isn't alignment indicative.  His advice was essentially "Walk off the cliff; you don't fall down".

Then he attacks me for asking a hypothetical question. This is where I start to think that he is scum, as he once again all he is doing is trying to stir up trouble with a nonsensical question.

What did you want me to do, lurk the whole game?

Then, when Jack A T votes him for his behaviour, he suddenly just gives up and refuses to make any sort of defence.

I don't see how this is relevant.

He then gets really mad at the three people voting him, and again refuses to defend himself-except with a single hypocritical statement and insults to the people attacking him.

Also, apparently being on the verge of being lynched is 'the perfectly acceptable' for him.

I love how you distort what I said here.  YOUR hypocrisy and that of every other person I've played with is fucking sickening.  You advocate 'playing aggressively' and then jump on someone that actually takes your advice.

Again, more insults and a baseless accusation that I'm scum. And apparently my hypothetical question wasn't a question but instead a statement. Huh. Also, more refusing to defend himself.

Lying is a universal scumtell, and you've lied more than once over the past game-day.

Once again refuses to defend himself, and claims that nothing he says will be believed until he dies.

Of course it won't, because you'll keep scumpainting me until I flip town.
You've tunneled me so hard that everyone has noticed it by now.

It's not like he's even innovating at all, this is a post from him I've seen dozens of times: Nothing but insulting and baseless accusations.

That requires effort that I wasn't willing to make.  Besides, your case by this point is extremely circumstantial at best.

Says that he refuses to read my post. That explains a lot, including why he got negative attention in the first case: The refusal to read posts properly. He also does his usual act of portraying himself as a poor, alone townie who has everything they say turned against him.

Because that's exactly what you're doing, trying to turn almost literally every word I have typed in this game against me.

Apparently tn5421 can dictate what I think, and so refuses to defend more because I have already decided that he's guilty. What he fails to realise is that, by now, this is the major reason why I'm voting him in the first place.

No, you aren't voting me because the rest of the players caught on to your attempted train and told you to fuck off.

More pathetic excuses. He claims that scumtells are all intentional and asks why he would drop one on purpose.

Where did I say my 'scumtells' were intentional, liar?

He doesn't post anything meaningful for a while, but then this. He's going to throw the game because he doesn't really care about its outcome in any case. Honestly, if he is town then this is the worst town play I've seen.

Stop appealing to emotion.  It's making you look like a loser.  I don't even understand how this qualifies as a case, since you don't have enough evidence to convince water that it is wet.

[Tiruin]

PFP

Y'know when bad net happens, argh is me all around.
But then modification to my last post == I really don't see Tn as scum given his mannerisms of late.
Post will be coming uppish soonish hopefully.