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[TheDarkStar]

Time for my reads, based on reading the thread. Also, if Darkpaladin gets modkilled, it's MYLO.

darkpaladin109: Null read due to inactivity. I'll probably ask more things to his replacement if there is one.
borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
TheDarkStar: Confirmed town for me  .
Deathsword: Scripten was inactive, so null read for now.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Kansa: Just started being active, but there isn't any reason to suspect him. Slight town lean.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum.
Tiruin: Active now, and was inactive due to RL. Town lean.

I'll detail the reasons for why I think Jack A T and RangerCado are scum later, but at least one if not two of the scum are in the list of tn5421, borno, Jack A T, and RangerCado.

[Teneb]

scripten/Deathsword: Y'need to post more buddy.

I ate something yesterday that... well, let's just say the result wasn't exactly good.

On that note, hope everything is OK in South America!

World Cup still a few weeks away, which is when the metaphorical feces will hit the fan. Still, thanks for the thought.

Because I don't really care about this game's outcome, borno.

Might I ask why?

Well, from the looks of it this game has been going kind of slowly. Some questions so I can get some reads on players:

Borno: How much do you think you've learned about the game since those BMs so many(two, I think) years ago? What are your reads on the ICs?

Cado: How scummy do you consider buddying to be, seeing as there were accusations you were involved in the act?

PPE:

borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum

Could you also elaborate on why you basically created two possible scumteams there? (bolded relevant parts). Why would the scum team be, say, borno and Cado instead of borno and Jack?

[Jack A T]

*looks at question asked to self*
Tiruin has attained Beginner status! \o/
Achievement, get!

Tiruin: Well, you are certainly a beginner of games.

... hey Jack A T, what course are you into if in college and what's your favorite ice cream? Also, why ask me a question of personal reflection? It's nice, but I'm curious.

I'm studying political science (major) and criminology (minor).  Over the summer, I'm taking one course, a political science one titled "Globalization and the Canadian State."  I lack a favourite ice cream flavour, due to the massive field of choices and my rejection of the idea that one must have a favourite thing in every category.

On my question to you: During RVS, I tend to focus on learning about my fellow players, and how they think, more than anything else.  That way, my RVS questions get information of significant use later in the game.  In this case, I decided to see what you got out of a game we both are quite familiar with, in part to see how it effected your play and in part to see how we differ in our views of the same events.

    TheDarkStar/fniff: [...] while I am suspicious on this one point wherein he says 'the Mafia are new' (considering that even the ICs can be scum) [cont] {fin}, it may either be a slip or just an offhand gesture at the idea. T'would be strange, now that I think of it, if it were a scumslip, though he may have just forgotten, hence only suspicion.

What do you make of Fniff's statement that he didn't know the ICs were players?

I await the rest of your reads.
TheDarkStar: Interesting reads.  I await your detailed reasoning regarding RangerCado and I.
A few questions:
*Why the search for full scumteams this early?
*How sure are you of the two possible scumteams you see?  As in, if one player you suspect flipped scum, how sure would you be that their hypothetical associate is scum?
*You gave basic reasons for each of your reads except (possibly) one.  Do you lean towards Tiruin being town due to her RL-caused inactivity and her turn towards activity?  If not, why do you lean towards her being town?
*I'd like to see detailed reasons for your scum leans on borno and tn5421 as well, please.
Deathsword: Alright.  Based on what you've seen in the thread so far, do you have any reads on anyone?

[Jack A T]

EBWOP

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

Tiruin: Newbies.

[LARD]

As a newbie, I can replace.
Ooh a replacement storm, this ought to be interesting.

[Silthuri]

As a newbie, I can replace.
Ooh a replacement storm, this ought to be interesting.

Awesome! Role PM incoming.

Also, Day has been mod extended another 24 hours and will end Friday at 7 pm EST. This will be the final mod extend.

[Silthuri]

Just to make it formal:

LARD has replaced darkpaladin109.

[Jack A T]

LARD: When you're ready, I'd like to see your thoughts on the game so far, including reads.

[LARD]

Here's my first and rather impulsive post:

Man, replacing into games is annoying, I like a good rvs. Oh well. Sorry if my knowledge of previous posts is not up to standard. I will try to read in depth more.

I did a quick read through and I think that tn5421 is still the most likely scum because of the way he freaked out so much when a bit of pressure was put on him.  I don't know if he's a completely new player, but I actually agree with 4maskwolf's practice of not lynching complete new players in the first day.  In addition, I feel that the presence of an unbalancing force like a hothead, irrational player or just someone with a different playing style can be very good for the town. I feel like I played that part in my previous BM, at least for the first bit, and I got lynched for my troubles.

Jack: seems to be almost running the show, or maybe that's just because you're the most active IC.

Those who replaced I feel are less likely to be scum because scum is a fun role to play, and if I were a scum, I would focus my energies and be quite active in that game.

A few general questions to help me get up to speed.
1. Are we still in RVS or should I be more careful with my vote?
2. Is there anything outstandingly abnormal I should know here?


A few more direct questions
Jack: You seem to be spending a large amount of your time commenting on other peoples questions. This makes it seem like you are pushing attention to other people's problems.  I guess you never want to attract too much attention to yourself, but it does seem like you are pushing random people without any order.  I know your vote is on me, or my predecessor for things like lurking and I'd rather not have the most active and trusted player breathing down my neck. The question is this: What do you plan to do with me now that I have replaced Darkpaladin and what were your suspicions on him.

Because I don't really care about this game's outcome, borno.

This is not good, to fix problem read this and do not emulate.  Not only is it hilarious, but it provides a great example of what not to do. I read it many times before I stopped laughing.  Anyway, do not loose heart. Things are not as bad as they seem but they can always get worse.

Borno: You seem to be reacting strongly to Cado's accusations.  Everybody has been throwing votes and random stuff around like confetti here. Most people seem to think that being defensive is a rather strong scumtell, and you seem to have an omgus here.

RangerCado:

borno: For the tn5421 situation, probably because I wasn't using his anger and frustration as evidence. And thats not buddying to me. To me, thats more stating he thought I had the only somewhat valid case on him.

And not seeing a scummy person is NO reason to not be questioning and hunting people. So yes, my point is valid. So whats your next reason for not questioning others borno?

Uh, yes you did.

-cut irrelevant bits-
You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

...REALLY!? Town shouldn't try to hard to keep themselves, but this is just... WHY!? Vote tn5421.

Your only point against him is something he said... While very angry and frustrated at Jack A T's vote. Also, I believe that it is buddying or perhaps defending?
While I'm attacking someone, I usually focus my attention on them and ask questions to others when I see something scummy. So, that's my reason for not questioning anyone while I was attacking tn5421. I guess that now that I've stopped attacking him, I'll ask questions to others.

You try to back up your attacks on your attacker with evidence, but it really isn't that strong.
This also

tn5421, since you continue to refuse to defend yourself, I'll just leave my vote here until you prove to me that I can take it off.

This is also a bad thing. He has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

 I will get a couple of chances to revote before day end but for now Borno, you're it. I like to leave my gate firing.
(MyOwnWorstEnemy If this hammers, disregard vote. How many to hammer?)
Other than that it just seems to be a normal D1

Ask important questions posed to darkpaladin to me directly please, if it's not too much to ask.  But please leave out any useless RVS questions. Sorry if I missed yours.

[tn5421]

@Tiruin, #192: Yeah, I'm aware, but I wasn't when I made that post.

@Tiruin, #194: What does 'holistic' mean?

@Tiruin, #195: This is an interesting conclusion.

It is possible that Jack A T is whiteknighting (protecting) me to subtly paint me as scum without being overt like borno, I suppose.  I don't really understand why you're trying to make associative scumteams pre-flip, though.

@LARD: 9 alive means 5 to hammer
We're more or less out of RVS.
I'm about to play other games; I'll get back to your intro post later.

[Jack A T]

A few general questions to help me get up to speed.
1. Are we still in RVS or should I be more careful with my vote?
2. Is there anything outstandingly abnormal I should know here?

LARD:
1. RVS has been over for a while now.
2. We've been playing, until today, with only about half of the players.

I will get a couple of chances to revote before day end but for now Borno, you're it. I like to leave my gate firing.
(MyOwnWorstEnemy If this hammers, disregard vote. How many to hammer?)

No hammers in Beginner's Mafia.

Those who replaced I feel are less likely to be scum because scum is a fun role to play, and if I were a scum, I would focus my energies and be quite active in that game.

I don't think this applies as well here as it does in other games.  Scripten left because he had no internet access, which has no connection to alignment.  Fniff was a first time player who found the game wasn't for him.  Darkpaladin, while having a bit more experience, felt the same way.  Scum's only very fun if one finds mafia to be fun in the first place.

Jack: You seem to be spending a large amount of your time commenting on other peoples questions. This makes it seem like you are pushing attention to other people's problems.

One, this is Mafia.  I'm supposed to examine what other people are doing, and try to get what evidence I can out of it.  That includes asking people about the questions they ask.
Two, I'm an IC.  That means I'm supposed to do even more commenting on what people do and ask.

I guess you never want to attract too much attention to yourself, but it does seem like you are pushing random people without any order.

Low-activity game full of newbies.  I'm trying to get whatever I can out of the players, to better determine their alignments.  I had also been trying to get players to act at all.  That means pushing people who do pushworthy actions, among other things.

I know your vote is on me, or my predecessor for things like lurking and I'd rather not have the most active and trusted player breathing down my neck. The question is this: What do you plan to do with me now that I have replaced Darkpaladin and what were your suspicions on him.

It's not on you.  I unvoted when he requested a replacement, recognizing that his reasons neutralized the high lurkiness issue he had.  My non-voting has continued with the sudden gain of 4 players.  My vote was primarily to pressure darkpaladin to act.

Now, I intend to improve my read of you.

A few questions:
*You seem rather nervous about my vote.  What is it about that vote, when nobody else had been voting you/your predecessor, that made you so nervous about it?
*What are your reads on players other than me, tn5421, and borno?
*You stated around the start of your post that you suspect tn5421 the most due to his breakdown under fire.  However, later in your post, you write this as part of your attack on borno (formatting added by me):

This is also a bad thing. He [tn5421] has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

The underlined sentence is written with the assumption that he is town, and you downplay the issue of tn5421's breakdown under fire, saying his play is "typical of depressed new player under fire."  You also push for borno to not vote tn5421, based on that, while mildly saying you think tn is scum.

Please explain.  Please also give more detail regarding your thoughts on tn and borno.
tn5421: Alright, you seem to have calmed down at least a slight bit.  What are your current thoughts on borno?  Can you summarize your current evidence (sans the stuff about an RVS question you didn't like the wording of) against him, if any?  What are your reads on everyone else?

Also, #195 was TheDarkStar, not Tiruin.

[Jack A T]

EBWOP: Also, LARD, please summarize your previous mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.

[Silthuri]

Votecount:

• LARD:
• borno: tn5421, RangerCado, LARD (3)
• TheDarkStar:
• Deathsword:
• tn5421: borno (1)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, Jack A T, Deathsword, TheDarkStar

Day ends Friday at 7 pm EST
There are no more extends available for today!

[borno]

Tiruin:
Glad to see you here.

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

borno: Why, exactly, are you voting for tn? Compared to everyone else, why him?

Because, as I've stated before, he's refusing to defend. I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.
TheDarkStar:

darkpaladin109: Null read due to inactivity. I'll probably ask more things to his replacement if there is one.
borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
TheDarkStar: Confirmed town for me  .
Deathsword: Scripten was inactive, so null read for now.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Kansa: Just started being active, but there isn't any reason to suspect him. Slight town lean.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum.
Tiruin: Active now, and was inactive due to RL. Town lean.

I don't know why I'm still being considered to be 'tunneling'. I've stopped attacking tn5421 as I have hit the magma sea and he has refused to say anything more. Also, I don't know how you got the impression that if I'm scum I'm probably buddies with RangerCado. Please enlighten.
tn5421:
Firstly, could you please use the quote function? It makes it hard to see which part of the post you are referring to, especially with giant WoTs like Tiruin's.
Secondly, when's that defence post coming along? You're slowing the entire game down.
LARD:

Those who replaced I feel are less likely to be scum because scum is a fun role to play, and if I were a scum, I would focus my energies and be quite active in that game.

Not necessarily. Maybe for people who are more comfortable playing Mafia, but for new players being scum can be a nerve-wracking experience-one that they may like to avoid.

Borno: You seem to be reacting strongly to Cado's accusations.  Everybody has been throwing votes and random stuff around like confetti here. Most people seem to think that being defensive is a rather strong scumtell, and you seem to have an omgus here.

RangerCado:

borno: For the tn5421 situation, probably because I wasn't using his anger and frustration as evidence. And thats not buddying to me. To me, thats more stating he thought I had the only somewhat valid case on him.

And not seeing a scummy person is NO reason to not be questioning and hunting people. So yes, my point is valid. So whats your next reason for not questioning others borno?

Uh, yes you did.

-cut irrelevant bits-
You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

...REALLY!? Town shouldn't try to hard to keep themselves, but this is just... WHY!? Vote tn5421.

Your only point against him is something he said... While very angry and frustrated at Jack A T's vote. Also, I believe that it is buddying or perhaps defending?
While I'm attacking someone, I usually focus my attention on them and ask questions to others when I see something scummy. So, that's my reason for not questioning anyone while I was attacking tn5421. I guess that now that I've stopped attacking him, I'll ask questions to others.

You try to back up your attacks on your attacker with evidence, but it really isn't that strong.

Wait, wha? How's that an OMGUS? An OMGUS is, by the first post's definition:

OMGUS - Oh My God U Suck, a vote on someone else simply because they voted or attacked you

I didn't vote RangerCado, so it isn't an OMGUS.
I don't believe I'm believe I'm being overly defensive either. I'm defending myself *cough* unlike some people *cough*, but by showing him how his points are incorrect instead of yelling and thrashing. That would likely be defending, and not what I'm doing.

This also

tn5421, since you continue to refuse to defend yourself, I'll just leave my vote here until you prove to me that I can take it off.

This is also a bad thing. He has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

How's that a bad thing? And it's a pressure vote; it is in the most useful place it can be. Unless if you have someone in mind who I should be voting? If he gets lynched for stubbornly refusing to defend himself, so be it.
Also-Wait, hold up. You agree that he is probably mafia, yet right after you say he is a depressed new player. What? Which is he? Scum or newb town?

[Tiruin]

PFP, also second half of my big post up there cont'd.

Tiruin:
Glad to see you here.

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

borno: Why, exactly, are you voting for tn? Compared to everyone else, why him?

Because, as I've stated before, he's refusing to defend. I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.

Did you ask him these things based on your observations?