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Author Topic: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Game Over!  (Read 169360 times)

Tiruin

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #180 on: October 28, 2013, 05:26:01 pm »

I was playing along with the Jim and you calling names, because you're both awesome (and quite literally the two guys who got my headstarted in mafia...as if I forgot that.) and it was more than a bit amusing calling you two newbies to say the least. :P

Tiruin:  First off, see right above.

Quote
EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?
I would like to be an Exorcist -No this isn't my role.

Why did you feel the need to specify your non-exorcistness?
Would you believe me either way? I'm saying that in humor..or something non-serious, and in the way that I answer the question. The appended part is for you to believe or not. Why I added that tag is because lots of people usually get the note on 'If I want role x, then I am role x'..which would deal with a lot of explaining in itself.

That's one of those jokes you probably shouldn't make.  I'm not NO FUN ALLOWED in Mafia, but that one is going to be taken at face value.

Quote
Tiruin
Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.

Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?
Interesting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?

This is an awfully defensive vote.
And this is an awfully casual poke on a vote for a seemingly passive-aggressive statement.

Why is that an awfully defensive vote?

It's causal because I wanted to see your reaction to the poke; said reaction allows me to check the nature of the vote in the first place and give me a starting point for building a read on you.  Currently a fairly null read, for the record.

It's because it came (almost) entirely off his attack of you.
@Last: I first read that as casual. Bleh. Sleeps. (Though I think you do need to work on the reaction testing there given how...declarative the sentence is). How would a reaction do anything but give a basic read? The person may be emotional at the time being, to note.

I...think you lost me with how that related. That was mostly a checking vote on him if he was keeping notes because...well, what I was defending there was really not in his scope of reason. Meaning: I felt like he just skimmed and threw that question at me so I decided to check on it. Right now, I'm checking on him more..more on an intuition read than not, but there are somethings missing with the aggression, and how directly it is stated.

@First: ...Got it. Was being lighthearted at the time and mused more on the 'In the world of Supernatural, what would you want to be?' thing.

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)



PPE: Blarh, great, just when I was about to try to get a half-hour sleep.

Quick response Cmega, apologies.

Cmega3
Max white, could you please calm down a bit?
You are acting rather weird.
I'd implore you to address quite much everything directed to you as of late, because its pretty...curious how you've been acting.

Tiruin tilts her hat 45 degrees to the right and looks directly at you.

What's up, son? What do you understand about Mafia?


What do you mean? I've tried to answer everything that's been asked to me lately. What'd I miss?
Nothing's wrong. I saw Max White get very defensive too fast. I don't think it's normal for someone to do that. So, I was very suspicious of him.
I understand mafia is a game. There are two sides. One is town, the other Mafia ("scum").
The Mafia know who else is Mafia, but are less. The town are more, but don't know who else is Town. During the day, town can lynch someone. During the night, Mafia can kill people. That's basically how it works. Most of the game is taken up by arguments between town (and Mafia at night) about wether who to kill/lynch. Correct me if I'm wrong.
[...]


@Tiruin- Got some tips for a nebie? I know I'm doing some things wrong, but I'm trying. Never played anything like this before.
I checked your posts in the lurkertracker and they sorely miss out on the posts addressing you (your name is either highlighted in bold or just called out, followed by the respective query). The note on 'try to answer everything' only becomes apparent now that you answered it.

I do recall you had one post before this--why did you not address the ones asking you back then, or at least say something if any condition IRL is affecting you from posting? It looked..hasty on one hand.

Aaaand that last part is what I was holding half of my suspicion on.

...

...

*Tiruin points at Jim/ToonyMan/Toaster for newbie tips. Hopefully they'll answer you better than my current somnophilic mind would.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #181 on: October 28, 2013, 05:48:20 pm »

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Cmega3: Tiruin
Imp: ToonyMan
Max White: Cmega3, Nerjin
Nerjin: Caz
notquitethere: Max White
Persus13: Jim Groovester, notquitethere
ToonyMan: Imp



Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tomorrow


For those looking for help in mafia, I recommend starting here and following the links in it.
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Toaster

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #182 on: October 28, 2013, 07:27:49 pm »

Tiruin:  ...Actually, that was supposed to be casual.  Firefox spell check makes me a bit complacent at times.  You must be ever vigilant in the war against bad spelling.

In any case, fair enough. 

(Though I think you do need to work on the reaction testing there given how...declarative the sentence is).

Oh, I disagree.  Seeing if/how people react to a non-question can be quite informative.


Cmega3:  Noted on your response.  The kicker is you need to put more reasoning into a vote besides "You're acting weird."  For example, that clarification you made about why he's acting weird should have been posted right when you made the vote.

Someone once said that you should assume that there is a "Why?" following every question directed at you.
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Persus13

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #183 on: October 28, 2013, 08:49:47 pm »

Warning: This will probably turn out to be a giant wall of text

Max White:
Seriously, do people still think they need to use red to get questions noticed?

Also you haven't actually done much at all since dropping that 'pressure vote' to try and pressure other people, so that story doesn't really check out. We still have plenty of time left in the day, why aren't you using it?
Well, that's what people used it for in the BM I played and previous Supernatural games.
And I dropped it because I didn't need it anymore, and because I might use again not to pressure someone else. You're just disappointed because it meant NQT lost a vote.

Quote
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I should say, my play specifically on Day One sometimes suffers mis-steps because I prefer concrete information and also I occasionally don't think about my precise wording when I post. Everyone in general's play on Day One is also hampered by the fact that there's nothing concrete to work off. I made a mistake in asking you a question about an unanswered question and this was quickly remedied— what more is there to say? I'm glad you answered the question eventually: I have a greater understanding of your rationale now than I did at the beginning of the game. If you think I have displayed a scum-tell then by all means say so and place a vote.
Your going me invite to vote for you? If you are town chances are you are the only confirmed town you know of, and you are going to invite me to vote for somebody that should be confirmed town to you. You are asking me to vote for the only person you know is town... Unless you aren't actually town and that sort of passive aggressive bullshit is not going to fly.
You are scum Notquitethere and I'll see you lynched.
Uhhhhhhh, no. I believe NQT's saying put your money where your mouth is, with vote instead of money.

Max White: Would you say that you're tunneling notquitethere? When you are sure of a scumpick would you say that you stop hunting everyone else in favour of picking apart everything he says?
Tunneling implies not watching others too. I'm keeping my eyes open, also still waiting to hear from Persus.
If I see something I think is questionable, I will question it, but right now I'm happy with NQT hanging.
Yeah, but the fact is you're still tunneling NQT. Jim, Caz and Tiruin all made posts, yet you seem to have found nothing questionable about their posts, while every time NQT makes a post you seem to turn it into another nail of his coffin.

Nerjin
Even if somebody were to swallow your wine, that doubt that such a claim makes exists for the town too when later they suddenly come out and say "Oh yea guys, I'm a cop now! You should lynch who I tell you to lynch when it is most vital!"
Nope, that is bullshit. Cop shouldn't claim non-cop, and as such neither should anybody else. The sort of WIFOM you are peddling right now is hardly productive.
That isn't WIFOM, Nerjin was making a counter-example to your WIFOM. Here's what he said:
So as Scum I'd kill 2. [...]

That assumes scum thinks like me though. I'd say that on average claiming not-cop doesn't change the odds at all that 1 will die. If there even is a 1. Maybe 1 is an A instead. I just doubt that NQT's claim thing there really means anything towards a power-roles death assuming NQT is a townie.
Notice that he used I when he talked about scum and then his last paragraph he pointed out that this is only his view, and otherwise it is WIFOM.

Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.


Jim:
It was mainly a question of clarification. Cmega3 said here he was unvoting NQT, but didn't put in red so when Meph posted a votecount his vote was still counting towards NQT. I was trying to figure out if he still wanted to vote NQT or not. As for not asking question this is my first time doing RVS (I replaced into Beginner's Mafia) and until people start talking a lot I'm not sure how to get people there.

So, at that point in time you had nothing to ask about, except to remind your partner to cast his unvote against notquitethere.

As for questioning Jim, I learned a few things about him by questioning him.

Do tell.
Ah nice strategy you have of making a statement implying I'm scum to get me angry and make a slip-up. How often does this work?
And I mainly learned you consider newbs a nuisance and would prefer it if we stuck to BM.

NQT:
Persus
notquitethere: Is this question the wrong question to ask and why is that?
It's only a wrong question at this stage of the game if you learn nothing from my response. What have you learned from my response?
I learned very little from your response but would have gotten a successful dialogue going if I hadn't messed up and forgot about your questions. So it's a slightly, but not completely wrong question.


Caz:
Persus13
Persus13: If you were scum, what would be your strategy to get through Day 1 without notice?
I have no clue. Do what I'd normally do except scum-hunt those I know aren't scum. Other than Cmega, I'm probably the most newb player in the game (on par with Kleril)
Why would you not hunt your scum-buddies? Do you really think that would be advantageous to your team?

Persus13
Voting someone in order to get them to do something is pressure voting. Voting someone because you think/know their scum and want them to hang is lynch voting. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they are different.
Pressure isn't pressure without the threat of a lynch. Why would they be worried if you're going to remove your vote after they answered your question? Did he answer so satisfactorily that you are now convinced he is town?
1. Good point. Scum-hunting buddies slightly could be useful. But I don't really want to get into hypothetical scenarios that I'm not sure how they'd turn out.

2. Agreed. If I found something scummy about the question I wouldn't have lifted my vote. Giving an answer I think is alright and satisfactory is reason for an unvote. (I also asked a dumb question). Am I convinced NQT is town from that answer? No, but I didn't really want him to hang through my pressure vote and Max's tunneling.

Persus13 – newb, but acted quite strangely telling Cmega3 to unvote his choice.
If you had bothered to read my posts instead of Jim's, you would find that my question was because I saw a post from Cmega saying he was cancelling his vote but the most recent votecount (when I asked) still had him voting NQT (Both linked in my earlier explanation to Jim). If NQT is an important and got lynched accidentally because of that then there would be major problems.


Imp: Your game this game is majorly different from the current BM going on. You seem less talkative and asking a lot fewer understandable questions then in BM (though this game may just be much more active) and have come up with a crazy theory for a GM mistake. Is this Scum Imp playing?


Persus13:
Persus13:
Imagine your role made you be a Town fortune teller this game.  During N1 you make your selection of who to inspect and receive a result of 'changer' from it.  There was no kill N1.  Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2?  Why or why not?
I would wait a day, and check some of the old Supernatural games to see what was wrong unless I was going to get lynched that day or I thought I'd get converted/night-killed that night.
Hey, Imp, I'm failing to see how this question helps you. It seems like a pretty specific scenario.
*considers the question*  I wasn't aware that you considered pretty specific scenario questions unhelpful.

Specifically, I'd noticed that you'd asked Jim a question about his opinion of the most dangerous Scumteam (a question he'd been asked and had answered S5; his newest answer hasn't changed from then).  That got me to wondering your overall absorption of the previous games, which was part of why I picked this question to go to you.

Would you say you mostly skimmed or remember little about each of the previous S games?  Did you enjoy reading them, did they make sense?  Which one was your favorite?  Was there one you found the least interesting?
I asked you why because I think asking about hypothetical scenarios that's highly unlikely to happen is dumb unless their's an underlying motive.

I read Supernatural 1-3, D1 of 4 and I don't think I read 5. I say Jim's answer in S4 but that was two games and at least one year ago. My favorite game was probably S1 because the Town 1 and it wasn't exactly easy (though both SK's dying early was a lucky fluke). The Vampire one was interesting but didn't work out well.


Anyone:
Asking you to vote for people your suspicious of is pro-town.
No it isn't. That's trying to start a bandwagon. People should be voting for who they think is scum, not for who someone else thinks is scum. You're not that dense.

Apparently you are though.

You're FoSing notquitethere for saying exactly what you're saying.

I'm sorry, can someone explain this argument to me? I can't follow where this is going.


Tiruin:
Persus13: Tiruin hands you a welcome to Mafia flyer. It is smooth in texture and glossy to the hand. On the paper is a detailed drawing of a human body, clothed in a rather dashing looking formal blacksuit along with a bowler hat. It is smoking a rather ornate pipe. In its right hand is a revolver, crossed along the chest and its other hand is pointing apparently at the viewer. There are no words on it.

What have you learned as of late--who do you suspect, I want names--why aren't you asking questions? Do you think there are a certain subset of 'right' questions and 'wrong' questions to ask?
Most people seem to be town like, even Cmega3 is getting slightly better at playing. Max is confusing. He seems like scum but I've seen him do this before. Kleril/Toaster and Imp seem a lot quieter this game than normal, which makes me wonder if they're more scummy. The one person no one seems to be discussing or voting is Jim, who seems to be above the radar at the moment. I don't have good reads on  most people, so I need to question more people. I also need to devote time to rereading NQT, because he seems very defensive but Max's attacks on him are throwing me off. I definitely think there are wrong questions to ask.

PPE
Hey, so the primary means of me knowing a thread is active is getting email notifications that someone made a post since the last time I checked the thread, and I wasn't getting emails from this thread for some reason (I probably deleted the notification email without checking thread) since my last post on Saturday. So I'll read through the thread since then and answer any questions and scum-hunt now.
Erm..you don't put the note of saying 'ok I've missed [x, y, z or any other factors]' and then add an 'I'll scumhunt now' to make up for it...

What have you learned as of late, and do you have any reads on the general masses?

Also:
> Notify in the tab bar.
It sends you emails. Forever.

Unless you check your newbox everyday to see this thread with every update.
PPE?
Scumhunt now was a reference to my poor showing in the RVS. Now that we're out of that I'll get better at asking questions.
Thoughts on players listed above.
And I use the Notify button, but it only sends you emails once after you leave the thread, and I must have deleted that email without visiting the thread.


Toaster:
Persus:
Hey, so the primary means of me knowing a thread is active is getting email notifications that someone made a post since the last time I checked the thread, and I wasn't getting emails from this thread for some reason (I probably deleted the notification email without checking thread) since my last post on Saturday. So I'll read through the thread since then and answer any questions and scum-hunt now.



That link is your friend.
Thanks for the advice.

I think I'll vote to Extend I want to get better reads on people
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ToonyMan

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #184 on: October 28, 2013, 09:08:56 pm »

@Toaster
Toony:
Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.
Since when is derping out a valid reason to vote someone?
When it's my first post of the game and I prefer not asking RVS questions.  I don't feel particularly keen on moving it right now, maybe Tiruin for being defensive (that vote on Caz was pretty bad) or Nerjin for going for easy targets (first Imp with me, now Max White with somebody).  Max White and NQT seems like too much of a gamble since either or both is/are likely town I feel.



@Tiruin:
NQT and Max White are being kind of dicks at each other, and judging by NQT and Dariush acting against each other in WC3 one of them is most likely town at least.  I doubt both are scum of some sort.
...Wouldn't this be classified too much as a metatell? They could be good dicks bussing too early to separate each other. Though I'm not sure how one could be a dick when the other is busy calling everyone to look at who is tattling on who.
I would be impressed if that were true.  I don't believe it.

@Imp:
I think Imp is too good a player to make that error
What are you basing this belief upon?
If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.
...Really? I think its a bit too early to make the reference on 'too good to do [this] error' here. Imp is technically fairly new to Bay12 forum mafia..
I could say the same for myself as I don't see myself as skilled at all given...my whole history on this board.
True enough, I can't recall seeing a player mistake a typical game for a bastard but it's probably happened.  Although Imp is voting me now for some reason...?



@Cmega3:
@Cmega3:
Max white, could you please calm down a bit?
You are acting rather weird.
This is a bandwagon vote.
The fact that someone voted for him before did not affect my opinion. I knew there had been a vote, but I didn't pay much attention to it.
Oh pish-posh.  I've used that excuse before, but it doesn't change your lackluster post there.  You explained your reasoning now though so it's better.
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ToonyMan

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #185 on: October 28, 2013, 09:11:01 pm »

Oh right, if you expect anything better from me you would be good and extend.
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Imp

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #186 on: October 28, 2013, 09:15:17 pm »

Extend works for me too.  I'm still a few hours from being able to make any focused or lengthy posting.  Back to work I go.
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Nerjin

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #187 on: October 28, 2013, 09:19:05 pm »

Extend as well. I want to address some points but I'm having a bit of trouble keeping up with stuff right now.
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Toaster

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #188 on: October 28, 2013, 11:05:44 pm »

This is not a content post.  It's just to extend and tell Tiruin that it's available by default in Win7 MSPaint, in the Shapes toolbar.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #189 on: October 29, 2013, 02:28:29 am »

Blah blah walls of text I hate these things. Extend.

Cmega3, you need to respond to this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As a third-party, you would be willing to act lone-wolf-idler given the pretense of being resurrected? Just the same as you would do if you were given a faction? Or would it be subjective given the matter of randomness and/or the situation at hand?

So, what are you asking? What I would do if I were resurrected as third-party? I don't understand this pretense of being resurrected business; resurrection is explicit and there's no uncertainty about when it happens. But if that is what you're asking:

Yes, I would be lame.

If people were to suspect you, would you just point fingers at others or do something else?

I dunno, it depends.

Haven't I already said what I would do in a situation like that? I think Caz asked me an identical question.

Why does he need to give a reason for these mistakes?

Because you asked him for it.

You keep asking WHY DID YOU BRING THAT UP and then when you look at it his response you ask WHY DID YOU BRING THAT UP over and over again.

Your problem with him is that he keeps volunteering information about his Day 1 play, without realizing that you keep asking him about it.

And your problem with his noncop claim is completely nonsensical.

My early game isn't always the best, I prefer to have concrete things to work with. As such, I'll be bearing a close eye on how people will be voting today. What to you constitutes a valid reason to lynch someone on Day One?
This was reply number 64. Nobody asked you anything before this relevant to this reply, yet you still try and insist you were answering a question.

Wait, you're serious.

So you're suggesting that notquitethere should have just ignored the insinuations you made in the post he's responding to, because 'nobody asked him anything.'

That's ludicrous. Ridiculous. Ridiculudicrous.

This isn't the only departure from logic I noticed but it's the only one I want to address right now.

There's many possible questions to ask, many possible ways to ask them.  Toony's seemed to have little time to put into the game so far, I hoped to ask a question that could be quickly answered yet still give me a range of likely answers which might help me understand his thinking/see how utterly unwilling he was to distinguish answers.

I fail to see how a numerical rating gives you any useful information, other than to tell you that ToonyMan doesn't have a lot of time to play the game nor the desire to answer your question in any detail.

You stepped into a question from Caz to me, not to answer it, nor to (directly) say it shouldn't have been asked, but to volunteer related (and accidental) misinformation.  Yours is a very confident tone and you are a strong speaker.  I'd like to understand better what you think about how careful you (usually) are with facts and how quick you are to close off ideas before they have been investigated.

If it's a matter of fact, sometimes I will offer it. Sometimes I don't care. If it's critical to somebody's case, I will point out the error.

Sometimes I am mistaken. Such is life.

I'd also like to know, roughly, how your 'fact checking'/'idea dismissal' reactions differ when you respond to these three classes: Yourself.  Experienced players.  New players.

It doesn't change. Matters of fact are exactly that; the speaker doesn't change the factual content of what's said. Nobody's immune to error nor has perfect memory.

'wholeistic'

*COUGH*

Posting from work, this must be kept brief.

You mean you can do brief?

You should do it more often.

Jim has played very passively, mostly just responding to questions. He has yet to direct a question at Toony, Tiruin, Cmega (though he accused the latter of going through the motions but didn't take this accusation anywhere). He said he was just getting started with the questions, I've still yet to see it. What's your defence Jim?

JIM GROOVESTER START SEQUENCE

[||||||||----37%------------]


It's really annoying when I go to bed Sunday night (Monday morning) and then the thread explodes by four pages of walls of text before I can respond to it, and then I get called passive for not asking a bunch of useless questions towards everybody.

I'm following up on stuff I care about. That is all I will say and all I need to say.

Is Max or Nerjin correct?

Why the dichotomy? It's possible (but unlikely) that they're both right. It's also possible that they're both wrong.

Did you forget about these possibilities (primarily the latter), or are you trying to force the issue between either of these two players?

I'm asking because Max has clearly lined out his argument as to why I am scum (in an alphabetically list, no less!), so now is the time to make a decision. Obviously, I know I am town and I think Max is mistaken but I can't expect anyone to just take my word on that.

Yeah, I don't like you trying to bring attention to these two players.

Meanwhile, your vote is on Persus13.

Why are you trying to draw attention to Max White and Nerjin instead of the player you're supposedly trying to lynch?

@Cmega3:
The fact that someone voted for him before did not affect my opinion. I knew there had been a vote, but I didn't pay much attention to it.
Oh pish-posh.  I've used that excuse before, but it doesn't change your lackluster post there.  You explained your reasoning now though so it's better.

It seems like you're letting him off easy here.

Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.

Do you suspect him or not?

If you do, then why aren't you voting him?

Yeah, you're scum. You want to look like you have targets but because you're new you lack the commitment to put your neck on the line and say for sure one way or the other. That's why you're doing this halfway statement with the blue text.

And it's not like your vote is on somebody else; you still haven't cast it.

Jim:
So, at that point in time you had nothing to ask about, except to remind your partner to cast his unvote against notquitethere.
Ah nice strategy you have of making a statement implying I'm scum to get me angry and make a slip-up. How often does this work?

This isn't a denial that you and Cmega3 are scumbuddies. In recognizing that I was implying you are scum to get you angry and make a slipup, you made a slipup!

THE IRONY

THE TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE IRONY

As for your question, it works sometimes, like it did just now. It's also a pretty standard tactic; you should get used to it happening a lot.

Anyone:
Apparently you are though.

You're FoSing notquitethere for saying exactly what you're saying.

I'm sorry, can someone explain this argument to me? I can't follow where this is going.

What, is asking me out of the question? Am I really that scary?

notquitethere said something. Caz misread it, cast an FoS at notquitethere, and then said the exact same thing as if it were a correction to what NQT said. I called Caz dense for it.

End of story.

Nah, I'm no newb.  Now Jim, yeah, he's a newbie.

I'm mafia-older than everybody in this game and I demand respect!

Now I'm going to take my nap!
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Max White

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #190 on: October 29, 2013, 04:28:27 am »

Why wasn't Tiruin scummy when she did it?  Quote's earlier in my post.
Well in retrospect she kind of was, but there are other things to take into account that make NQT more scummy. Tiruin mentioned it when in an answer that related to roles, NQT bought it up to try and justify having an especially good wincon. The intensive to just use it as a defense, rather than just a passing comment on an otherwise boring answer makes it more scummy. Also when questioned on it Tiruin gave an explanation of why she said it, while NQT lashed out in a display of "Screw anything you think is actually beneficial to the town"
]I can talk about my role any day I please. There's no Mafia Commandments that I have to follow.


Quote
Why are you so ready to believe that he's not a cop?  In fact, your argument here is bass-ackwards.  You're saying claiming non-cop is bad, because scum prefers to NK cops and therefore won't NK him.  Ergo, he's scum.  However, if he's scum, then he's not a town cop at all, completely negating the danger from him claiming that.
I don't think he is a cop, I think he is scum who claimed to be cop.
Claiming your role, even inverse claims, are bad and not something town should do, but it is something scum might be willing to do in their own defense.
If he was town then ok, sometimes mistakes happen. Not everybody just understand the maths involved without thinking about it or being told. Maybe town non-cop NQT really just did not understand what he was doing... Except then instead of admitting he had made this mistake like he said he likes to do, he lashed out and declared himself above town convention and that there are no mafia commandments to go by. There are lots of things best avoided by town, but apparently they don't apply when NQT has a defense to make.

Cmega3
I saw Max White get very defensive too fast. I don't think it's normal for someone to do that. So, I was very suspicious of him.
Really? Interesting, what behavior do you think was defensive? Please go on. Evidence is always good.

Persus
Uhhhhhhh, no. I believe NQT's saying put your money where your mouth is, with vote instead of money.
I hadn't even said I suspected him at that point, but he sure assumed I was saying he was scum. What do you think that sort of defensive paranoia is indicative of?

Quote
Yeah, but the fact is you're still tunneling NQT. Jim, Caz and Tiruin all made posts, yet you seem to have found nothing questionable about their posts, while every time NQT makes a post you seem to turn it into another nail of his coffin.
Three people made posts, and because I didn't really go for the throat on any of them I'm just focused on one person? I think some people are having somewhat interesting lines of questions going and I don't really want to fuck with that, it can be counter productive. If I think a point is going unpressed I will go for it.

Quote
That isn't WIFOM, Nerjin was making a counter-example to your WIFOM.
Please, that sort of "Oh, then people are actually the OPPOSITE of what ever they say they are!" is the embodiment of WIFOM. An analysis of the numbers behind why we don't claim what we are not (And also why vanilla townies should never claim) isn't.

Quote
Max, you're arguments are making you seem very scummy. The only reason I'm not voting you is because you did something similar in S4 and were Town.
Ok I'm most likely doing myself a disservice here, but fuck it. These games are even more slower than I remember, with people sitting around until suddenly the day draws short and then everybody suddenly has time to shout "EXTEND!!!" but not provide any real content. My ability to give a fuck decreases by the hour, so if this gets my lynched then kudos to you I guess.
That is a kinda shit excuse to not vote somebody. The org mentality that somebody is too bad to lynch is as dangerous as the Jim mentality that somebody is too good to lynch, the difference is that Jim gets NKed for his trouble. I'm not saying vote for me, because I think your reasoning is lacking and I know it will be bad for the town, just that you are giving a bad reason to not vote for anybody.

Jim
So you're suggesting that notquitethere should have just ignored the insinuations you made in the post he's responding to, because 'nobody asked him anything.'

That's ludicrous. Ridiculous. Ridiculudicrous.

This isn't the only departure from logic I noticed but it's the only one I want to address right now.
He is allowed to bring it up, and I'm allowed to question him on it, but if he wants to claim that he bought it up because I questioned him that is an outright lie. I'm suggesting that claiming that he initially bought up his defense because it was in a reply to a question I asked is a fabrication.




I think that is everybody? If not just leave your name and query after the beep and I'll get back to you tomorrow after some sleep. I could have sworn there were other questions posed at me but now I seem to have misplaced them.

notquitethere

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #191 on: October 29, 2013, 06:06:00 am »

Max
This is outright misleading the town in the hopes they won't check the posts.
I'm not trying to mislead anyone, we're just talking at cross-purposes here.

My early game isn't always the best, I prefer to have concrete things to work with. As such, I'll be bearing a close eye on how people will be voting today. What to you constitutes a valid reason to lynch someone on Day One?
This was reply number 64. Nobody asked you anything before this relevant to this reply, yet you still try and insist you were answering a question.
You said I'd made a mistake, I acknowledged the mistake and then made a comment about the early game in general. Still failing to see how this makes me scum...

So you say your early game isn't always the best... Why do you feel like pointing that out? What difference does it make?
This is reply number 66, and came after that comment.
Unless you can tell the future in real life, there is no way that you were answering the question quoted. All I did was point out you made a mistake and then you got defensive from there, no questions asked about it until you got defensive. Once you had shown that tell I questioned you about it, but that came after.
I think we have different standards as to what constitutes a 'question'. You queried my behaviour, I gave an explanation and expanded on it. Can we stop going round in circles now?

Quote
Where are you even getting this from? You asked me questions, I gave you answers. It's okay not to like my answers but don't pretend I never gave them. You've convinced yourself I'm scum and are now working up further evidence for the case. It's just confirmation bias. Your case doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
I asked you, very specifically, word for word
What difference am I meant to see from you in regards to whether your answers are carefully deliberated or from instinct?
Should I just dismiss scum tells because you didn't spend fifteen minutes carefully picking over your post to make sure there were none, or should I be even more inquisitive about mistakes people make when they are most likely to give themselves away?
And your reply was
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I should say, my play specifically on Day One sometimes suffers mis-steps because I prefer concrete information and also I occasionally don't think about my precise wording when I post. Everyone in general's play on Day One is also hampered by the fact that there's nothing concrete to work off. I made a mistake in asking you a question about an unanswered question and this was quickly remedied— what more is there to say? I'm glad you answered the question eventually: I have a greater understanding of your rationale now than I did at the beginning of the game. If you think I have displayed a scum-tell then by all means say so and place a vote.
That is totally evading the actual question. You never even tried to give me an answer, you thought you would just 'clarify' and everything would be forgotten.
I don't see anything wrong with my answer. Obviously I don't think you should ignore what you take to be scumtells and so I took that part of your question to be rhetorical. Did you actually want me to spell that out?

Oh look, now you are trying desperately to polarize the town. Seriously, we could technically both be wrong, yet you want people to vote based off the fact that somebody is making an argument they may or may not agree with? Technically we could both be right (Were not, but from an outside point of view) and I would be trying to bus you right now. This attitude that 'Either you agree with his argument or you lynch him!' is total scummy bullshit.
You mischaracterise what I'm doing. You explicitly stated that I am scum. I deny this. I fail to see how we can both be right about this! I'm trying to get town to appraise your arguments and make a decision. I don't think they should lynch you if they disagree with you: I think you're wrong about me but you're hardly the scummiest player.

As well as myself, who else do you have a read on?



Toony
NQT and Max White are being kind of dicks at each other, and judging by NQT and Dariush acting against each other in WC3 one of them is most likely town at least.  I doubt both are scum of some sort.
Unlike with me and Dariush in WC3, I don't even think Max is definitely scum. I just think he's mistaken.



Caz
Are you really defending yourself against defending yourself here? I find this hilarious.
Amusing it may be, but offering up a defence when presented with arguments against you is a null-tell.

Max White – has been very active in scumhunting, but could be exaggerating his arguments against NQT for an easy lynch.
I'd contest this point: he's been very active in pursuing a case against me, but had yet to converse with all players in the game as of yesterday.



Toaster
Now, there's two serious votes in the game: Max is convinced I'm scum, his argument is there for all to read. Nerjin claims Max is seriously over-reacting. Well, who is right?
Who is to say they aren't both right or both wrong?  You should know better that to set up something like that, NQT.
Well I'm to say! Max's argument is that my behaviour conclusively shows me to be scum. He really is quite certain. I know that this is wrong. How can this admit ambiguity?

Why isn't your vote serious?
It had the potential to turn into a lynching vote, but as was, it was just a bit of pressure. Normal early-game stuff.

You are scummy, Max is scummy, Cmega hasn't got a grasp on hunting scum yet.   Toony and Nerjin are worth another look.  Jim is quiet.
'Scummy' is a bit nebulous. I don't think Max is particularly scummy, he's just pursuing the wrong case. Town do that all the time. You're right about Nerjin, and I'm looking forward to getting content when Toony is less busy.



Jim
Is Max or Nerjin correct?
Why the dichotomy? It's possible (but unlikely) that they're both right. It's also possible that they're both wrong.

Did you forget about these possibilities (primarily the latter), or are you trying to force the issue between either of these two players?
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Max is claiming that his argument shows that I am scum, Nerjin is saying that this is not the case. They both can't be right: A or ¬A, but not both. Scum don't actually like appraising arguments, reasoning things through and making definite decisions.

I'm asking because Max has clearly lined out his argument as to why I am scum (in an alphabetically list, no less!), so now is the time to make a decision. Obviously, I know I am town and I think Max is mistaken but I can't expect anyone to just take my word on that.
Yeah, I don't like you trying to bring attention to these two players.

Meanwhile, your vote is on Persus13.

Why are you trying to draw attention to Max White and Nerjin instead of the player you're supposedly trying to lynch?[/quote]I wasn't really trying to lynch Persus, I was just wanting him to explain himself. The vote was from the RVS and has only stayed there because he's been lax at responding to this thread. I think Nerjin is correct about Max but generally poor at scumhunting, Max is incorrect about me but in general slightly stronger at scumhunting than Nerjin. I'm drawing attention to the two not because I'm trying to get either of them lynched, but because it's the most significant accusation so far in the game.



Persus— I'm glad you're back. If you had to vote anyone now who would it be? Also, how are you going to get reads on people when you don't even ask them all questions?



Cmega— it's not enough to just answer questions. You've got to press them as well. Read the thread and spot things that seem odd to you and ask questions.



Nerjin You're right about Max being wrong, but that doesn't mean you're not scum. As far as I can work out, you've only pressed questions on three players so far this game. This puts you on the same tier as two newbies and a player that has been mostly absent. You haven't been absent, and you're not a new player. It's okay to miss things from time to time, and your case on Max is understandable, but how can you be sure it's the best case you could be pursuing when you haven't even pressed the majority of your fellow players? Could you even give me a considered assessment of scumminess of all the other players?



Tiruin
Each and either is correct in their own mind, but I'm wondering on the stability on what they stand on to base what is correct or not.
Enough wishy-washy relativism. Each may believe themselves to be correct but as they are diametrically opposed only one can be correct. So which is it?
Well? Is Max's argument a good argument? Does it definitively show that I am scum? Here it is, what do you think?
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Imp

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #192 on: October 29, 2013, 07:05:23 am »


Nerjin:

Bold is my emphasis:
To Imp:
NQT is playing dumb not scummy
To Tiruin:
I don't think NQT is playing dumb. I think NQT is playing in a manner that isn't optimal. He's not playing well is what I mean but I don't think he's scum.
To Caz:
BUT the mistakes, for they are there, that Max is claiming are irrefutable proof of NQT's scummyness don't prove anything at all and honestly just seem like bad play to me....It's human nature and what NQT has done, while dumb as hell, doesn't seem particularly scummy.

Umm.... what are you doing?  It looks like you're flipping back and forth between saying NQT is playing/being dumb, saying he's not, then saying he is again.  Are you actually doing that?  Why are you doing this?

Also, to comment on your answer,
Because you were putting it on a player who wasn't even in the game. I guess in retrospect it's not that big of a deal but voting on someone who literally CAN'T be lynched is basically abstaining.

I assure you, once I was certain that I was voting for someone who was not a threat to Town (and also could not be lynched, but my focus was the perceived threat to Town), I stopped having any interest in what may appear to you to be 'abstaining' from voting.  My vote was not placed with any intention to do anything but to make the most use of it I could see any possible way to use.  Had the typo not been there, or had I realized it was a typo and not an intentionally placed clue to go with a long series of other clues all seeming to me to point in a very clear and very threatening direction, my first use of my vote would not have been placed as it was.

Tiruin:
I wonder where you got your name..seeing the date of creation. It's rather fascinating speculating on it...I'm always thinking mischievous little cute imp

Such pleasant topics perhaps should wait for calmer times, or at least less time-pressed and purpose-driven forum topics.  Otherwise I'm glad to chat about it.  I have curiousity about your curiousity, but I don't see how to connect that to scumhunting, alas.

Also.... it's been a few days.  Is silence your answer to this?
Tiruin:
Imagine your role made you be a Cult Sexton this game.  During N1 you are informed that the grave of the D1 lynch (a townsperson) has been disturbed - in fact the body is missing!  No mention is made of that person's reappearance during D2's opening post and the posts in Scumchat tell you that no Scum was involved in this disappearance.  Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2?  Why or why not?

Max White:
Imp
Quote
You identify a seriously scummy player fairly early D1.  There's a few real life days before the scheduled nightfall.  How important is it for you to further verify that your intended target is Scum during this time?  How important is it for you to seek the other Scum during this time?
It is important to seek other scum at all times. It is also important to verify suspicions, but to at least state them early enough that you aren't jumping in with fifteen minutes until the day ends with a great big case.

How much focus, over the last three days or so, would you say you have put into finding Scum other than notquitethere?  You have said that he is Scum; can you explain your reasoning for your ongoing Scumhunting of him without compromising your purpose?

Nerjin
Quote
Let me put it this way: Max's attacks on NQT could have happened to anyone and I would feel that he was simply trying to whip town, or perhaps just himself, into a fever pitch against the player with very little evidence.
What makes you say NQT has little experience? Isn't he IC in the current beginners game?
Did you misread Nerjin's words of "very little evidence" as "very little experience"?  If not, where did Nerjin say this?  Here's the link to the post you quoted if that helps you remember/find it.

Caz:
You offered no real argument against my words except to claim that they were "bullshit".

Did you just not read this? 
You'd asked about newbie mistakes to watch out for.  He's said that he's not going to try and stop you from making those newbie mistakes - you answered with garbage: boldly stating that 'it's in his best interest for you to play effectively, unless he's Scum.'

First off, you're assuming that newbie mistakes replace and prevent effective play - instead both are likely to be present in a newbie's play, if that newbie's actually trying to actively play and achieve their wincon.

Secondly, you (appear to) assume that it's possible to turn you into an effective player by pointing out common newbie mistakes you should watch for.  That's farcically incorrect.

Thirdly, you make the claim that it's in his best interests to invest time, effort, energy, and whatever else it takes, not into Scumhunting, but into making sure that -you- play effectively (or he's Scum).  Do you really intend to state that?

To confirm your view: I'm an anti-Town jerk who scumhunts, right?
Nope, I'm not sure yet if you're anti-Town or not.  You seem more not-Town then Town to me, but I'm not convinced yet.  You do appear to be trying to Scumhunt.
How does the former align with the latter in your view?
Scum have to conceal themselves as not-Scum; appearing to Scumhunt seems to be a very commonly used and highly recommended method.
Do you even read what you write?
Yep.  Far more carefully than you read what I write, that seems very obvious.

When you write stuff like this you make me wonder if you bother to remember what you write from day to day.

Where'd you get that misperception from?
Which? You're not still peddling the "Webadict is a zombie!" theory, right? How is this a misperception?

Here's the context which you did whatever with to forget/lose/disregard... bolded for easier understanding.

Though I am glad you've given up on that train of thought, it does bother me that you want to keep going over it.

Why are you making assumptions of whether I want answers to the questions I ask or not? Of course I want answers. It looks more like you're trying to paint me as exaggerating your own answers so that you can ignore my questions.
You ask about a topic I say I won't talk about again unless asked about; you use  my answer to make the claim that I want to keep going over what you ask about.  One of several reasons I'm sure you're a jerk.

Toonyman:
@Imp:
I think Imp is too good a player to make that error
What are you basing this belief upon?
If you lack the self-esteem to see yourself as a skilled player I should say by my impressions you seem pretty competent or at least proactive.
...Really? I think its a bit too early to make the reference on 'too good to do [this] error' here. Imp is technically fairly new to Bay12 forum mafia..
I could say the same for myself as I don't see myself as skilled at all given...my whole history on this board.
True enough, I can't recall seeing a player mistake a typical game for a bastard but it's probably happened.  Although Imp is voting me now for some reason...?

I would appreciate an answer to my question instead of a dodge.  None-the-less, I will discuss the garbage you dish out in lieu of an answer, this time.

I do not lack self-esteem.  Nor am I unable to analyze my own experiences.  You have utterly failed to ask, or notice when it was previously mentioned, which it partially was in this thread.  This is my second Mafia game in any format.  My first is the currently unfinished Beginner's Mafia on this forum.  The next closest game I've ever played to Mafia is 'heads up 7 up' which I last played around 30 years ago - it's a very distant cousin which has almost nothing in common with Mafia.  I first noticed Mafia existed about three months ago, and did not start to try and learn its rules until the recent BM started, about a month ago.

You, however, are apparently an experienced player.  And you -dare- act confused that you bear my vote.

You have no time for any Scumhunting, yet.  This game has extension limits; the maximum possible D extension ends Thursday, the day before your 'best possible time' to actually be able to focus on the game.

However, you see perfectly fit to pick a single detail, give a single reason, and park your vote.  You ask no questions about my Scumminess, one of the few 'lessons' that was 'taught' in my not-yet-over first BM - you ask questions and actively scumhunt.  Not you - to you I'm Scum because you (don't even bother to really) say so.  You have no interest in verifying anything; you brush aside questions from multiple people (not myself) about your vote and its stated reason, one asking you repeatedly about your reasoning.  When I ask you for the basis of your thinking, you refuse to give it, instead providing a two-part single sentence of drivel, one part flailing to attempt an attack at my self-esteem, the second part saying that your impressions make me seem competent or at least proactive.

Garbage.  I -asked- for the basis of your belief that I was to skilled a player to make what you consider to be that sort of mistake.

To my limited experience and understanding, your behavior looks quite textbook Scumlike.  Will you waste more effort on defending yourself than you have so far on your incredibly absent Scumhunting?  That would be rather textbook Scumlike too from what I've read.

Toaster:

I can field a couple of those.  The zombie was not voteable, but was actionable... if anyone knew the right person to action, when the only possible hint would come from a sexton (who can't do any action against the zombie.)  IIRC the zombie goes if the necromancer goes.

Oh thank goodness.  I have more questions along that line, and you were the necromancer then, so you might know them.  That game, NO ONE but your zombie had a night kill, no member of Town, nor did the Scum - no one in that game could have targeted and removed your zombie - wasn't even a knight or a werebear or any other role who could possibly kill someone targeting them at night.  Your role PM did NOT say that the zombie would leave or perish if you died, all it said was you could raise another if it did die.

Are you guessing, or actually maybe recalling correctly, that the zombie goes if the necromancer goes?  That would have had to have been something you discussed with Meph in PMs - did you ask that then?  How do you know that the zombie was not voteable - is that certain, or a guess?  ... If I missed or misunderstood publicly available stuff that you remember, would you link it or at least provide clues for finding it myself?

Toonyman:  Welcome in late to the party!  If your role gave you a one shot daykill which had to be used on D1 or not at all, who's your pick and why?

This is a very specific question.  Have you, perhaps, read Paranormal 11?

Not yet.  I like Mafia enough now that I know it exists, I might just read all the games, eventually.  Time is an issue.  As to my very specific question, I generally prefer specifics.  That question was adapted from reading S4, where Leafsnail asked kilakan, "Let's say there's a one-shot daykill floating around.  Why exactly shouldn't you be the target?"

A few questions for you:  Jim is quiet.  How concerned are you about that, and how (what direction(s)) are you concerned about?

What flavor of Scum or known Third party do you consider most dangerous to Town?

And I'd asked this question of Kleril, he never answered so I'll pass it to you now -
Imagine your role made you be a Devil in this game.  If you had to pick right now, which other player would you first approach to deal with, and why would you choose that player?

Persus13:
Your game this game is majorly different from the current BM going on. You seem less talkative and asking a lot fewer understandable questions then in BM (though this game may just be much more active) and have come up with a crazy theory for a GM mistake. Is this Scum Imp playing?
No.  Keeping in mind that one's apparently not supposed to discuss an ongoing game... at least you're dead in a game that lacks resurrection, so maybe you can talk more freely.  I don't know.  But I'll try to respond without saying 'too much'.

Other than this game having some differences from the ongoing BM, in roles, unknown role status, tone, the attitude and experience level of most of my fellow players, and a history connecting to some degree with previous incarnations of the game (roles to possibly expect if nothing else) - to me there's not much difference in how I'm playing here as there, and those differences are situational.

I'm not aware of being less talkative, save that over this weekend I had a major headache (9/10 scale of pain for hours; over 25 hours before I felt 'normal' afterwards) that really wiped me out, and usually weekends are more available playtime than weekdays for me, but not during or for a long time after that agony.  If you're not talking about my weekend absence, then I dunno what to think.

As to asking less understandable questions, I'll remind you that you can ask for clarification (or outright translation if it's that confusing), even if the question wasn't directed at you.  Right now I have no idea what you haven't understood, so I can't try and fix it.  As to my 'crazy theory', I didn't recognize the mistake as a mistake until it was confirmed as one.

There's a few differences in your play this game than in the BM too.  Is Scum Persus13 playing now?  In the BM you seemed to have in general more confidence.  Once you replaced in, you really seemed to help get everyone talking with each other more, you asked about things (repeatedly when not quickly answered) including questions about how people were interacting with each other and what people meant when they said things, and you never seemed at a loss for questions to ask or impressions to offer.
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For every trouble under the sun, there is an answer, or there is none.
If there is one, then seek until you find it.
If there is none, then never ever mind it.

notquitethere

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #193 on: October 29, 2013, 08:02:34 am »

Imp
It's interesting that you view an aikido-like use of momentum as scum-style evasion.  I don't necessarily, I think certain people play in an aikido-like way, and you are one of these people - which is not to say I am calling you Scum because of it; I'm still essentially undecided on my impression of your alignment.  Your use of momentum appears to me to include a fair amount of evasion, grounding, circling, and indirect approaches.
Mafia is textual sparring, and you show quite comprehensively that martial arts metaphors fit quite nicely.

I'm not sure how to respond to that charge.  Far as I knew it was Scumhunting.  I failed to follow up on your answer to my question about your question to Kleril because you brought up a very strong reason (seemed so to me) why I should not, which I bold here -
We should refrain from talking about current games though
That's fine, I'd rather have had some kind of response, but I'll drop the point.

As far as my aikido-esk question to you and my purpose in asking it, it's about understanding what you're willing and able to say about your strategy and comparing that answer to what your strategy itself shows me.  That your words are so different from how your strategy appears to me to be is interesting and was unexpected.  I'm still thinking that over.
I don't see myself as deflecting attacks, which is why I resisted the aikido metaphor for town-play.

If you are Scum, I somewhat believe that's going to become more evident over time.  If you happen to be the Cult Converter, you've got to die asap.  Right now I have no idea if we have a cult, a not especially strong sense that you're scum, and a fairly strong expectation that if you live you're going to keep posting and interacting at a fairly high level - this will allow multiple chances to observe you both directly and indirectly and will allow more chances to get a stronger sense of your alignment.
Well, I will certainly keep on posting and pressing cases as long as I survive in this game. What do you think would clue you in to there being a cult?

I note that this is not the only topic you're discussing, for all that you've presented it as a serious topic to the point of being near the edge of tacitly suggesting it's the most important issue in the game so far.  I wonder if that reflects on how you are the target; I wonder at how I feel myself percieving a plea for help in your words, not just to myself but to each of those you personally ask.
As far as I can tell, Max has pressed his case in stronger and more absolute terms than anyone else. Is there anything else more serious in the game? of course, I'm pursuing other things: we should be mindful of significant game-events but never focus on them exclusively. That gives the other players too easy a time!

Here is my take on the situation, as of right now, Max's side.  Max is pushing you, and pushing you hard.  He is not pushing anyone else as hard, right now or as yet.  I believe he's trying to 'sound' you, to read your depths in your reactions, and to interpret them as best he can (for himself, honestly?  For us, dishonestly?  Either is possible, I'm listening for both and everything else I hear) while continuing to press with what I'd call 'great force'.
I think he's doing more than sounding me out: Max has made a positive declaration to have me lynched.

You didn't ask for your side to be considered, you asked for Nerjin's.  That's so aikido to me.  Anyway, I think Nerjin's dead set to defend you.  I can't tell what that means yet, if that means that Nerjin defends people and would defend anyone being 'hunted' as you currently are, or if it means anything else.

[...]

He's 'ringing the not-Scum' bell for you really hard.  Almost to the point I think he may not care -what- else he says, or if it contradicts what he's said before or may say next, as long as it might help get the message that you are not scum across.  It seems seriously important to him that we all get that message, and as I bolded - he's either accidentally or intentionally willing to directly contradict himself, repeatedly and pretty freely.  That's kinda neat.  What does it mean?  I'm still thinking that over.
Two obvious possibilities appear to me. 1. Nerjin is a nice chap, and I think his natural inclination is to question dodgy arguments with enthusiasm. 2. Often when playing a scum-type role in the past, I'd go out of my way to defend someone I knew to be town; defending a town player from attack (and implicitly attacking the attacker) is much easier do for scum than straight-forwardly attacking. They can marshall good and honest arguments in a defence, whereas if they attack a player head on then they have to resort to distortion and hyperbole.
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Caz

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Re: Supernatural Mafia 6 - Day 1 Wakes the Sleepers
« Reply #194 on: October 29, 2013, 09:36:12 am »

Extend also. Need time to go over this wall of text.
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