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[Imp]

Here's my concern, though: What if you're wrong, and we get no mod intervention to tell us whether or not we're completely off track? We'd end up with a waste of a day. I say we hold out on this train of thought until our glorious leader says something.

Kleril, I like that concern.

I noticed some clues, checked it out as much as I could by rereading everything that seemed to relate, then posted my bemusement and the possible clue trail I spotted.  I've not said, 'Everyone, lets play Kill Webadict instead' and I certainly don't expect anyone else to vote as I am right now - there's no need or reason for more than one exploratory vote until the error (if error) is corrected.  If the 12th player exists only in a typo and in a newbie's eager imagination, I expect minimal time has been wasted for all and I can drop this line of inquiry.  If there is a 12th player, that's been noticed nice and fast and any steps anyone feels needed at any point can be taken; doesn't even have to be D1, but since I see clues now I'll check now.

Supernatural games are not bastard mafias. The only players playing are the ones in the players list.

One day you'll look back and feel very silly about this.

I'm fine with feeling that way.  I don't mind being a newb, and I enjoy feeling silly for noticing something and doing something about it more then I enjoy feeling silly for noticing something and doing nothing about it.

I'm still going to consider this a suspicion for now, as Jim is a player, not a co-mod this game, and he may not know everything Meph has intended and decided.  If he does, I'm sure he'll either forgive me for being a silly suspicious newb - or he'll deal with me as he pleases, so all bases are covered in any extent.

Jim, Supernatural 5, did you write all its flavor?  It was around a year and a half ago, that's time enough to forget some minor stuff.  About this question, thank you for quoting it, and in the section where you're talking to me.  I had missed it originally, probably because I was all fired up eager to go out on that limb.

Imp - You die, and resurrect as a 3rd party (survivor). Do you claim your new role? Why/why not?

As best as I can recall, resurrection into 3rd party survivor isn't possible in the Supernatural games.

From what I understand, both of how Toaster explained his changed role in play and from the posted role PM, he was indeed resurrected as a third party (survivor) role.

Would you mind confirming I understand that right, or explain so I understand it as you do?

Caz, to answer you, I think a resurrected player is likely screwed, confessing or not.  Toaster sure was.  There's so much suspicion about revived folk, from Solifuge's glorious secretive and until the end kill-less win S4 to toaster's ignominious 'I confess everything and only want to live, but I can kill over time and will if directed' in S5.  There was still trust of the revived Townie (who came back demon) back in S2, but after some confusion from Scum lies and the demon's actual attempt to kill a knight (that's autofail, and the knight can talk about the PM too, though the PM didn't include the demon's name) the next night, that demon was a quick and easy relynch two days later.

So that's half my perspective - the other half is that for me, everything is situational.  The exact details of the situation, of every player's play and all the choices I can see that have been made by everyone playing - every piece of everything I'm aware of would go into my choices of how to achieve my wincon.  Without knowing a HECK of a lot of details, I really cannot give you my plan, because without those details I don't know if I'd claim or not, and my understanding of those details encompass my why/why not.

And I'd like to ask you about this -

Why would I try to stop you making mistakes? Isn't that why we are here?

It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum.

Part of my job (maybe everyone's) is to attempt to find the Scum, no matter who they are.  You could be Scum, none of the 'uninformed majority' knows either way.  It's said that it's harder to be the 'informed minority' and act like you don't know what you do indeed know, but also know most other players do not.  Newbies make mistakes, but so too do Scum, and it may well be impossible to try to stop (  I don't like the use of the word 'stop' there.  correct?  forgive?  overlook?  ignore?  Something along those lines is what would actually be happening) newbie mistakes without also stopping Scum mistakes.

Please consider this - then explain to me your choice of either:  Why the reasoning in the above paragraph is wrong.
Or:  Accepting and including that reasoning, what your new answer to Max White's question would be if you were answering it again now.

-snip-

You are right, I just seemed to notice everyone was posting questions to all, while notquitethere posted specific questions to specific people. I thought that seemed kind of suspicious, and I just wanted to get a small test run at applying pressure. However, I'm canceling my vote for now until more evidence comes along.

Cmega3, convention has us unvoting in red, just like we vote, to make it easy easy to see (I know the basic rules didn't say this... but the BM and tracker programs taught me this).  There's also third party programs, like zombie urist's lurker tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/), which look for red text to track the most recent vote (or unvote).  Might want to repeat your unvote with bright boldness, lest you are misunderstood to continue to vote where you'd rather not.

Also, talk to me a bit about conviction versus cooperation:  For instance you placed your vote and gave a reason of 'it's suspicious'.  Caz followed by asking you how it was suspicious, threw in a second and pointed leading question, and called your arguement weak.

You responded by telling him he was right, repeated yourself that it seemed suspicious to you, explained that you were just testing applying pressure, and that you were cancelling your vote until more evidence comes along - but then made no follow up questions to Notquitethere.  Where might more evidence come from, unless you dig for it?  Nor did you really answer Caz's non-leading question, how did it seem suspicious, unless you meant only the difference in general questions versus specific ones to be your reasoning.  Do you control your vote, or would you prefer that others control it?  When someone tells you your argument is weak, does that mean your argument is actually weak?

Toonyman:  Welcome in late to the party!  If your role gave you a one shot daykill which had to be used on D1 or not at all, who's your pick and why?

Tiruin:  What's your take on Jim's opinion of general questions,

General questions are useless since they lack the pointedness of their focused counterparts.

and his preference of not answering them?

For that matter, you answered most of the general questions, but not either of mine.  Why not?

Notquitethere Would you prefer to lead, follow, or (for a time) go unnoticed?  Why?

Nerjin

Nerjin - If you were a monster hunter, who would you pick for a night kill? Would you use it as soon as possible or wait for a better opportunity?

We don't really know what a Monster Hunter does but if I had a town aligned NK I would go after whomever I thought was the most scummy. If I were more than 75% sure I would use it. Hope this helps.

We got to see the roleflip and PM of a monster hunter in S5, though we never got to see him try or succeed in using his kill, true.  When you say 'more than 75%' sure, what sort of criteria do you use?  What is a 75% range to you?

[Imp]

Doh.  Meant to include this in the post above.  Jim, you may find this convenient for answering one of my questions.

Spoiler: This is a resurrected third party (survivor) role, yes?  It's from S5 (click to show/hide)

[spoiler=Night 2]
Your soul floats free in the void as you await judgment, free from the worries of your previous life. You can still observe the happenings of the mortal world, but you find yourself uncaring towards it.

You contemplate what to do for the next millennia when there’s a tug at your chest, or what feels like your chest. Sensation and incorporeality do not mix well. Like a rope pulling you upwards from a plummet of infinite distance, your soul returns to the mortal world.

You wake up. You’re lying in the graveyard, next to your grave. You’re alive, and happy to be so. But something is... different than how you remember. You feel cold. Your hands are clammy. You no longer hunger for food and drink, but you have a different kind of thirst.

You are no longer a Monster Hunter. You are now a Lone Vampire. You can use your newfound powers to subdue and block a victim for you to feed upon. Each night you must set out to feed to sustain yourself, however, should you choose to feed upon a victim twice in a row, they will not survive the trauma.

You must survive the trials of your town so that you can escape to other feeding grounds.

[Jim Groovester]

I wrote nearly all the night action flavor for Supernatural 5. I had forgotten about Toaster resurrecting as a Survivor, even though I wrote the flavor for it.

Whoops.

[notquitethere]

Caz   

Caz— Do you cave easily under pressure?

Yes. You've given me palpitations.

Good, that was the effect I was going for.

notquitethere - Do you think that policy-lynching lurkers is ever a good strategy? Do you see this strategy as scummy or town-orientated?

In actual play I've only seen policy lynching lurkers put forward by scum players. However, players not being engaged with the game is pro-scum, so town have an incentive to pressure lurkers into participating more or replacing out. As such, sometimes the right thing to do is to vote lurkers. This should never be presented as a policy though, as often there'll be better lynch candidates.

Do you disagree and if so, why?

Max

If scumtells are a little murky it is because scum tends to be pretty murky, especially when things like interactions with confirmed scum don't exist yet. Its day 1, if you want absolute and clear cut guild lines I have bad news for you, they don't actually exist. The best day 1 tells are the ones that work at the time. People make all sorts of mistakes, and then you press them on it and you see what they do.

No, it may not be absolute but I think there is definitely a pretty clear Day One tell. I'll reveal it after the RVS.

Why did you feel the need to bring it up?

I was just giving context to my mistake. To give a bit more context: at my best, I carefully consider the impact of what I'm about to say and rewrite my posts several times. At my worst, or most enthusiastic, I work off a vague sense of the game's position and post responses without giving adequate consideration to their wording.
Day one most commonly ends in a town-player being lynched. Can you name a tell for a Day One Town Lynch?

Also, what did you learn from this:

Tiruin: Good to see you! Assuming you were scum would you prefer offensive night powers to rush the town down or defensive powers to avoid detection?

Interesting prospect, good sir.

Depending on the prospect (and perhaps hidden roles[?] - I'm unsure if roles not in the list are given to scum but I'm putting this perspective in view) then I'd be taking offensive night powers. Those because of the idea on..well, the notion of practicality and simplicity. A defensive power can be traced and made as an alibi, but an offensive power, in its full context or generally any context, may as well be used to its benefit-confusion and harassment, or as a power to eliminate threats.

Imp

Does anyone else think that Webadict might be our unspecified, but not unannounced 12th player?

Let's see what future modposts state. I didn't think this was going to be that kind of game though.

I have some trouble with simultaneous multiple followup; 2 seems to be my current comfort zone as far as time and mental dexterity goes and I've made careful forays into pressing 3 at once.

Do you feel more comfortable answering questions than pressing them?

Notquitethere Would you prefer to lead, follow, or (for a time) go unnoticed?  Why?

Only scum and third-parties want to go unnoticed. It doesn't matter if I present myself as a night target so long as I do my damnedest to root out scum. If you just follow then you will be lead and mislynched will happen. All town have to lead their own personal, intense inquisition.

A general question for all:
Supernatural 5 ended with the escape of Scum Webadict and a banishment/KOS declaration on him. The OP made mention that it could be an interesting backstory for a future Supernatural if one was needed. Do you think this game will prove to connect to that game in a way that includes that backstory?

Does the opening flavour for the game gel with the banishment/KOS declaration etc.?

Of the various main and third party roles which have appeared in Supernatural games, which do you think you'd have the easiest or hardest time winning with?

Does Supernatural have a survivor role? Those are usually the hardest to win by because other roles you can win if your team mates survive after your death.

Persus

notquitethere: Is this question the wrong question to ask and why is that?

It's only a wrong question at this stage of the game if you learn nothing from my response. What have you learned from my response?

Cmega

notquitethere, you look pretty suspicious, responding and and asking questions to everyone personally. I'll watch you for now, but I'm very prone to changing my thoughts.

It's fine to be suspicious but I'd be more suspicious of the opposite. By tailoring my questions to each individual person rather than asking mass questions, the respondents can't get clues on how to answer from the responses of others. Also, I get to start up an individual dialogue with each other player. I'm not going to find scum if I ignore half the players. Does that sound reasonable?

Kleril

I intend to try and develop my scumhunting & scum identifying skills this game.

Looking back at the revealed scum in your previous game, are there any scum tells that seem obvious now?

There is a fairly valid point buried here. By not addressing the group as a whole (i.e. asking @all questions), you get to pick and choose who says what, and line things up so you get the answers that you want. Seeing as we just started and little information has distinguished individuals from the group, you have no reason to be picking & choosing. Unless, of course, you have some way of differentiating between players. Odds are that you're making a scum play here. Do you have some reasoning for doing this that you'd like to share?

You can see my reasoning in my response to Cmega above. In starting a specific dialogue with each player, I maximise the chance of interacting with scum. If I just asked a general question to everyone, it'd be harder to differentiate between the players.

Jim

Jim Groovester— Are there any good town-tells?

Being active and aggressive and pursuing a list of targets is a town tell.

Is this the game, notquitethere? Is this the game where you'll finally win?

I'm glad we're on the same page on the town tell thing. I see that you answered the questions directed to you reasonably effectively but you didn't deign to answer any in turn. You going to let all these new kids question themselves?

Spoiler: Why I might just win this time (click to show/hide)

I don't have an impossible-to-fulfil wincon for once.

Nerjin

No I don't. It was a stupid question in retrospect and has given me little, if any, useful information.

I'm glad you've seen the light. I look forward to seeing some real questions in your next substantial post.

Tiruin

Tiruin— How do you learn the most from Day One before there's been any kind of flip?

Just as much as anyone learns-via observation. The flip only acts as a dead-end of sorts, to debase or debunk any relative or leading conclusions or notions. If deviations are to follow from said flip, then that is generally a note of suspicion. However I learn usually via observation, and primarily by questioning.

You say deviations, but deviations from what? Do you think there is value in discussing the Day One flip on Day Two?

What use is asking my learning style, given how learning is such a general term? Would it help you understand me more, or is there any other reason you had in mind to inquire this?

Perhaps I should have phrased my question more clearly. I didn't want to know your learning style. On Day One a lot of content is posted. There are ways of shaping discussions so that in future days we can learn things from the interactions. I wanted to see your perspective on this. To put things another way: how should you act on Day One. 'Observation' and 'questions' is so vague. What are observing? What kind of questions are you asking?

[ToonyMan]

PFP
I have classes all day and two exams next week aaah

EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?

The role that let's me win without having to do anything.

ToonyMan— Is tunnelling ever a legitimate town-strategy?

No not usually.  If you're right it's okay.

Vampires have a history of being over somewhat over powered, so I guess that would be easy mode. Apart from that I only know one third party, and that was Toony the Devil. That looks like a somewhat tricky role now that one of them has won and people are unlikely to ever take a deal again.

That was Leafsnail the Devil.

Toonyman:  Welcome in late to the party!  If your role gave you a one shot daykill which had to be used on D1 or not at all, who's your pick and why?

Jim, he's scary.

Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.

[notquitethere]

Toony

I have classes all day and two exams next week aaah

Good luck!

ToonyMan— Is tunnelling ever a legitimate town-strategy?

No not usually.  If you're right it's okay.

I'll bear your response in mind as the game proceeds. Another question: do you think Imp's actions look more like a scum avoid-antagonising-people strategy or an earnest misunderstanding (or something else)?

[Caz]

Max White

Ok so tip 1 then: Nobody is so stupid that they will just admit to being scum. If you want to play effectively, try actually doing something that has the potential to get results rather than these useless questions to try and appear to be helpful.

Noted. What have you learned from your own questions so far?

Imp

Caz: How many players are in this game, counting yourself?

Should be 11 (Or is it 12? )

Spoiler: Day 1 Players (click to show/hide)

Day 1 Players
Nerjin
Jim Groovester
Tiruin
Persus13
Cmega3
Imp
ToonyMan
notquitethere
Caz
Max White
kleril

To answer you... carefully... because you're (sort of) asking about an ongoing game that I'm still alive in, and I understand that we're not supposed to discuss those until that changes, I have not as yet made a formal personal file; I made notepad notes to make a thread, and post it for all (Town and Scum, no way to show just Town) to see.  My main assumption has been that I can't count on being here for the dawn of the next D; anything I take to the grave with me is lost; it might make sense to run with plans that need a real-life day or two to complete but I'd better not make any plans of any sort that go past the current D.  This game could have revivals or speaking with the dead, but that's seriously iffy in many ways - I'm leaning towards not taking plans or information past the current D because that could be their/my expiration date.

Fair answer. Long-term gambits don't work often, though when they do you look very smart. I'm trying to share all my thoughts as I have them, but having the notepad is great for listing suspicions that you have no well-thought-out argument for yet. e.g "he /feels/ scummy!"  "oh why? stop making up crap!" etc. I hope the strategy works out well for you. If you ever thought up a good plan that required you to act beyond the current D, would you ignore the idea or go through with it?


Cmega3

You are right, I just seemed to notice everyone was posting questions to all, while notquitethere posted specific questions to specific people. I thought that seemed kind of suspicious, and I just wanted to get a small test run at applying pressure. However, I'm canceling my vote for now until more evidence comes along.

If you still believe he's suspicious, why did you take the vote off? It's not pressure if you remove it at the first sight of trouble.


kleril

How would you characterise your playstyle?

Speak when spoken to, and don't throw out too much fluff. Didn't serve me too well last game, though.

Do you really think this is a good strategy? Or are you trying to stay under the radar by avoiding conflict?

@Caz & Notquitethere:

notquitethere, you look pretty suspicious, responding and and asking questions to everyone personally. I'll watch you for now, but I'm very prone to changing my thoughts.

How is this suspicious? Do you respond to questions via your scum secretary? What a weak argument.

There is a fairly valid point buried here. By not addressing the group as a whole (i.e. asking @all questions), you get to pick and choose who says what, and line things up so you get the answers that you want. Seeing as we just started and little information has distinguished individuals from the group, you have no reason to be picking & choosing. Unless, of course, you have some way of differentiating between players. Odds are that you're making a scum play here. Do you have some reasoning for doing this that you'd like to share?

I was thinking along similar lines. Asking questions is not a scumtell.

Imp

I see a limb.  I'm going out on it.

It's an interesting theory, except that this is supposed to be a beginner-friendly Supernatural. I.e not a bastard mod. More likely to be a zombie (if we have a necromancer), or just a typo. If we could get a confirmation from Meph that would be good.

Tiruin

Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.

Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?

notquitethere

Good, that was the effect I was going for.

My insurance premiums thank you. Moving along...

In actual play I've only seen policy lynching lurkers put forward by scum players. However, players not being engaged with the game is pro-scum, so town have an incentive to pressure lurkers into participating more or replacing out. As such, sometimes the right thing to do is to vote lurkers. This should never be presented as a policy though, as often there'll be better lynch candidates.

Do you disagree and if so, why?

I'd mostly agree with you there.

Pressuring lurkers into being active = Very yes.
Actually lynching lurkers = Usually there's a better candidate, and if you can't find one, town has bigger troubles than a few sleepy villagers.

Though the strategy doesn't detract from how much I loathe lurkers. Especially the ones that come in just before a prod and say "Hey guys! I'll make a post later!" just to disappear for another two days. If it spreads it can be game-breaking.

ToonyMan

ToonyMan— Is tunnelling ever a legitimate town-strategy?

No not usually.  If you're right it's okay.

Do you think that it's a viable scum strategy to remove a town player, even if it results in your own death? Why/why not?


Jim Groovester: You have been resurrected from death. How would you proceed, and how do you convince the town not to lynch you?

[kleril]

Unfortunately, I will be unable to access the internet from later today until Sunday evening, so this may be my last post for two days.

@Caz:

kleril

How would you characterise your playstyle?

Speak when spoken to, and don't throw out too much fluff. Didn't serve me too well last game, though.

Do you really think this is a good strategy? Or are you trying to stay under the radar by avoiding conflict?

I never said it was a good playstyle. I'm fairly dead weight, as far as I'm concerned. I do not wish to try flying under the radar, but I really don't want a repeat of last game. Getting lynched as town ain't fun.

@NQT:

Kleril

I intend to try and develop my scumhunting & scum identifying skills this game.

Looking back at the revealed scum in your previous game, are there any scum tells that seem obvious now?

No scum have been found yet, so I unfortunately do not have the luxury of having a frame of reference.

There is a fairly valid point buried here. By not addressing the group as a whole (i.e. asking @all questions), you get to pick and choose who says what, and line things up so you get the answers that you want. Seeing as we just started and little information has distinguished individuals from the group, you have no reason to be picking & choosing. Unless, of course, you have some way of differentiating between players. Odds are that you're making a scum play here. Do you have some reasoning for doing this that you'd like to share?

You can see my reasoning in my response to Cmega above. In starting a specific dialogue with each player, I maximise the chance of interacting with scum. If I just asked a general question to everyone, it'd be harder to differentiate between the players.

Fair enough, I suppose. The possibility of posing leading questions to specific players still worries me, though.

@ToonyMan:
What do you think is the best way to provoke a lengthy, useful response from another player?

@Jim:
If you had to lynch all players but two (excepting yourself, of course), who would they be, and why?

@Max White:
Would you ever intentionally mislead town in order to secure a town victory? Why?

[Nerjin]

I'll ask a general question:

EVERYONE: What role would you most like to have and why?

General questions are useless since they lack the pointedness of their focused counterparts. Compare the response in a school setting when the teacher asks everyone a question, compared to the teacher asking a single person a question.

I'm going to wager you don't care about the answer so I'm not going to give one. It's a win-win for both of us!

At the time of asking it I did care. After a few people answered and I re-read the OP I realized I was being dumb and have since stated, in thread I believe, that the question was basically worthless.

From what I'm told I'm the worst player to have in any mafia game ever. That's according to Solifuge.

What do you think?

I think I'm a rather poor player in general though I like to think I approach middle ground.

Nerjin
[. . .]
Why do you ask a general question and what/how would it help you?

I like to view it as allowing me to see how other people view things. If I ask everyone a different question I can learn how they react in specific situations. If I ask general questions I can see that PLUS I can see little tidbits about their frame of mind.

Nerjin

Nerjin - If you were a monster hunter, who would you pick for a night kill? Would you use it as soon as possible or wait for a better opportunity?

We don't really know what a Monster Hunter does but if I had a town aligned NK I would go after whomever I thought was the most scummy. If I were more than 75% sure I would use it. Hope this helps.

We got to see the roleflip and PM of a monster hunter in S5, though we never got to see him try or succeed in using his kill, true.  When you say 'more than 75%' sure, what sort of criteria do you use?  What is a 75% range to you?

Oh right. That whole "Beginner friendly same rules as last time" thing. Hm... Well when I say "75%" I mean to myself. I can't really quantify it in nebulous terms. Sorry mate but you're just going to have to live with 75% sure. I really just use my gut in that instance.

@Imp
How sure are you about your theory? I like it. I really do. It'd be friekin' AMAZING but... This is beginner friendly. Why waste your vote like that? Hows-about you actually put it towards something useful until Mod confirmation?

@NQT
I don't know if I like your condescending tone. What exactly do you know that's given you these two scoops of self-confidence in your raisin bran?

More specifically though, and more seriously, if your win condition isn't impossible to get this time around then you must have a non-usual role right? Something that isn't vanilla town or vanilla scum win condition yes? Because the way I see it you stating that your win-condition is actually possible when I'm sure you usually play in games where your goal is simple "Kill the other team" would imply that you have a win-con that isn't "Kill the other team" and thus 3rd party. So please, explain your statement about having a "Possible Win-con".

[notquitethere]

Caz

Pressuring lurkers into being active = Very yes.
Actually lynching lurkers = Usually there's a better candidate, and if you can't find one, town has bigger troubles than a few sleepy villagers.

The issue here is that pressure has no force if it's not backed with the possibility of lynching. Also, it's hard to know whether someone genuinely is the most suspicious player, if a whole bunch of players haven't said anything. For the first day of the day, I'm pleased everyone has now posted, let's hope that keeps up.

You've probably been asked this already or before, but have you played much mafia before?

Kleril

No scum have been found yet, so I unfortunately do not have the luxury of having a frame of reference.

That's fair! Is there anything you're looking out for this time? I mean, in concrete terms, how do you intend to improve your scum-hunting?

Fair enough, I suppose. The possibility of posing leading questions to specific players still worries me, though.

Well if you see me or anyone else asking any leading questions or throwing obvious soft-balls, speak up.

Nerjin

I don't know if I like your condescending tone. What exactly do you know that's given you these two scoops of self-confidence in your raisin bran?

More specifically though, and more seriously, if your win condition isn't impossible to get this time around then you must have a non-usual role right? Something that isn't vanilla town or vanilla scum win condition yes? Because the way I see it you stating that your win-condition is actually possible when I'm sure you usually play in games where your goal is simple "Kill the other team" would imply that you have a win-con that isn't "Kill the other team" and thus 3rd party. So please, explain your statement about having a "Possible Win-con".

Where was I condescending? Tone can be easily mistaken in forum-text, and I didn't intend it. I've got a bit of mafia-experience under my belt. I think I have the smarts, the muscle and the heart to win this time! As for impossible wincons. The last five games:

• In Witches I had to kill all third parties before all the witches were killed, including killing ZU four times
• In Princess I had to survive a whole game where death was meted out by scum randomly
• In BM XLII I died N1 as the cop in a game fraught with participation issues
• In Toon I had to spend a night alone in a room with a boy in a game where not all the other players could be relied on to rationally play to their wincons
• In the Great Temple (though I also admit to lousy play here) I was pretty much the only player that didn't have a power in a game with dubious mechanics

No, this time I have a normal role (town, since you asked). Most of the other players in this game seem somewhat competent, I trust that the game set-up isn't completely broken, and it's at least not out of the realms of possibility that if I die tonight, I'll still win the game. You seem to be saying that scum and town wincons are impossible: what do you know that I don't?

(p.s. I love the image of scooping self-confidence into my raisin bran. You've got a good way with words.)

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Caz: notquitethere
Imp: Nerjin, ToonyMan
Nerjin: Caz
notquitethere: Cmega3, Persus13


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday


A few notes:

First, there are only 11 players, not 12. This is what I get for writing stuff up while I still have a head cold. My apologies. I'll correct the opening flavor.

This is not a bastard game, and I don't mean to confuse anyone with anything. So, for clarity, what I meant by Roles not changing is that I am not modifying or adding any roles compared to previous Supernaturals. Any of the previous scum teams could be in place, and any role that has shown up in the past could show up again with the same abilities.

Finally, you are allowed to quote anything I post in the thread. You are only forbidden from quoting PMs from me.

[kleril]

Kleril

No scum have been found yet, so I unfortunately do not have the luxury of having a frame of reference.

That's fair! Is there anything you're looking out for this time? I mean, in concrete terms, how do you intend to improve your scum-hunting?

I plan on improving by taking a more offensive stance, and not just sitting back while things happen around me. Last game nearly all of my replies were defensively replying to accusatory posts, and that didn't help much. Speaking up when I notice things, and when they don't sit right with my gut.

@Imp:
What's your next move, now that the almighty mod has clarified the 11 / 12 players issue?

[Imp]

Do you feel more comfortable answering questions than pressing them?

Not yet.  Approximately equal comfort on average.

Does the opening flavour for the game gel with the banishment/KOS declaration etc.?

To me the opening flavor of this game seemed null tell to that connection. or its lack. 

Does Supernatural have a survivor role?

Yes.  S3 had Org starting as a wererat, S5 had Dariush as one as well, both with a survivor wincon and no special powers.

If you ever thought up a good plan that required you to act beyond the current D, would you ignore the idea or go through with it?

Assuming it's something that I had to pull off myself, I'd set up for it, but most of my eggs would stay in the 'in the moment' basket and I'd try to set it up so it did whatever it did without further interaction from me.  Hopefully others would notice and act on the information revealed.

Assuming it's something that I had to pull off myself, because I'd gotten a devil role or similar, a wincon that required me to take steps towards success over multiple D, I'd probably still focus on each D as it came.

@NQT:

Kleril

I intend to try and develop my scumhunting & scum identifying skills this game.

Looking back at the revealed scum in your previous game, are there any scum tells that seem obvious now?

No scum have been found yet, so I unfortunately do not have the luxury of having a frame of reference.

... NQT, you are listed as ScumIC for the game being discussed in these quotes.  Now that your question has been answered, please discuss your reasoning in asking this player this question.

@Imp
How sure are you about your theory? I like it. I really do. It'd be friekin' AMAZING but... This is beginner friendly. Why waste your vote like that? Hows-about you actually put it towards something useful until Mod confirmation?

It's impossible to measure that surety based on anything except 'mod had just made X roles.  Mod had just PMed X roles.  Mod had heavily encouraged examination of previous games, and made clearest connection to one game (same rules, same roles).  Mod's opening post specified, twice, that there were X+1 roles.  That specified game had an unusual circumstance, and was specifically marked as being possible backstory for a future game.  One previous game had an active killer who did not appear, through the contents of the thread, to be votable, active, or still in play. (He had started as a player, and been revived as a serial killer's puppet)'

That apparent cluetrail was enough to get me to roughly 15% certainty - And the price of ignoring that cluetrail, if it was one, could be gamebreaking.  Adding in a hidden 12th player and dropping no clues?  Gamebreaking.  Adding in numerous clues that there's a hidden 12th player?  Catchable, reasonable.

@Imp:
What's your next move, now that the almighty mod has clarified the 11 / 12 players issue?

Continue to play, completely content that I need give that closed path no more attention, other than the questions of others request that I do.  And to relax slightly; I'd prepped to keep track of 11 other players, one of them invisible and if not Webadict, then I had no idea who.  Keeping track of 10 other players, all known, I like that much better too.

[Persus13]

*realizes pressure vote is still on NQT*

Unvote on NQT.

And I have no idea what to post or ask, other than...

Omega3: You decided to unvote NQT or not?

[Max White]

Tiruin

Why are you asking these definites? Why are you asking my preference given that context?

Given context is RVS, so expect a few random questions.
As for why that question in particular, apart from the fact that it is vague enough in terms of what would be seen as the 'correct' answer to make somebody think they might be making a mistake and get a little defensive, it could provide a little future insight... Maybe. People get paranoid and think more about what could end them rather than what they would end others with, so I guess if you wanted to tag answers then scum would be more worried about their own defense, and town would be more worried about the scum offense... But that hardly qualifies you as confirmed town, and you shouldn't really tag answers like that.

The question served its purpose in providing the potential for new discussion, that is why I'm asking your preferences in that context.

notquitethere
See above for what I got from it.

I was just giving context to my mistake. To give a bit more context: at my best, I carefully consider the impact of what I'm about to say and rewrite my posts several times. At my worst, or most enthusiastic, I work off a vague sense of the game's position and post responses without giving adequate consideration to their wording.
Day one most commonly ends in a town-player being lynched. Can you name a tell for a Day One Town Lynch?

That is a strangely worded question. Do you mean to ask what would be a tell that the day 1 lynch is going to flip town?

Anyway, so now we have context to your mistake. You did it because it is the early game and you're not good at early game, and by 'you' you apparently meant everybody, and for some reason you felt incline to clarify that you meant everybody and then go on to tell me how you personally do in the early game. So what am I expected to draw from this context? What difference am I meant to see from you in regards to whether your answers are carefully deliberated or from instinct?
Should I just dismiss scum tells because you didn't spend fifteen minutes carefully picking over your post to make sure there were none, or should I be even more inquisitive about mistakes people make when they are most likely to give themselves away?

Caz

Noted. What have you learned from your own questions so far?

I learnt that talking to NQT is a rich and satisfying experience.

kleril

@Max White:
Would you ever intentionally mislead town in order to secure a town victory? Why?

Yea I would, and so would you. We all are right now. It is called 'Not giving out role information that although useful to town, is more useful to scum'
We deceive the town every day, every game to get a town victory because anything we tell the town, the scum know too, and often they can make better use of this, especially in the early game. Pretend to know nothing until you can actually deal some pain is the best tactic.