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[Persus13]

And who else have you questioned?
Not counting that query thrown at Jim in regards to why he was annoyed at all the inexperience, considering you never followed it up or anything.

I've question a few players. This is my first time doing RVS, and so I'm not sure what questions are good to ask. My questions have mainly been aiming at getting advice from experienced players, then judging how true it seems to be. As for questioning Jim, I learned a few things about him by questioning him.

Persus13:
Imagine your role made you be a Town fortune teller this game.  During N1 you make your selection of who to inspect and receive a result of 'changer' from it.  There was no kill N1.  Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2?  Why or why not?

I would wait a day, and check some of the old Supernatural games to see what was wrong unless I was going to get lynched that day or I thought I'd get converted/night-killed that night.

Hey, Imp, I'm failing to see how this question helps you. It seems like a pretty specific scenario.

Persus13:

Discuss your theory on the difference between 'pressure votes' and 'lynch votes'?  Some of the stuff I'm wondering about, what's is that difference between them, what tells you when someone's vote is for pressure or when its for lynch?  When and how does one become the other, and does that order reverse sometimes too?

From my understanding, you random vote someone and ask them a question in the opening of D1. This is a form of pressure vote to get them to answer the question and is usually taken off if the person satisfactorily answered the question. It's intended to mean that "I think this guy is scum and want to lynch him," but mean "Hey you! Answer my question! And here is some red color to ensure you answer it and notice it!"

Voting someone in order to get them to do something is pressure voting. Voting someone because you think/know their scum and want them to hang is lynch voting. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they are different.

My vote on NQT was a pressure vote and since I didn't have a reason to pressure him anymore, I removed it.

[Max White]

Seriously, do people still think they need to use red to get questions noticed? I never use votes while questioning and haven't had a problem with it. I mean really, when has anybody just been ignored consistently for not using a vote? Also use red for actual voting only, not explaining your point, otherwise it is just annoying for all involved.


Also you haven't actually done much at all since dropping that 'pressure vote' to try and pressure other people, so that story doesn't really check out. We still have plenty of time left in the day, why aren't you using it?

[Jim Groovester]

On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like feeling challenged?  Feeling successful?  Feeling useful?  Feeling clever?

On a scale from 1 to why is a numerical rating of ToonyMan's emotions relevant?

Jim:
In general, how careful would you say you are to make sure that you are being accurate, particularly before you close off a route of inquiry or a line of thought?  Does that level of care differ when it is your inquiry or line of thought, or another person's?  Does your level of care change when the other person's inquiry or line of thought is being presented by an experienced player versus a newbie?

...

What?

This is a complicated and annoyingly phrased question.

It was mainly a question of clarification. Cmega3 said here he was unvoting NQT, but didn't put in red so when Meph posted a votecount his vote was still counting towards NQT. I was trying to figure out if he still wanted to vote NQT or not. As for not asking question this is my first time doing RVS (I replaced into Beginner's Mafia) and until people start talking a lot I'm not sure how to get people there.

So, at that point in time you had nothing to ask about, except to remind your partner to cast his unvote against notquitethere.

Jim Groovester

If I was resurrected as non-town I would do nothing until I could win. It's lame, but it's worked in the past.

What does 'do nothing' consist of as a playstyle?

Play a normal day game, but don't use any actions, otherwise you might get found out and summarily lynched.

Being passive is about the only viable strategy for resurrected anti-town third party.

As for questioning Jim, I learned a few things about him by questioning him.

Do tell.

[Tiruin]

...When I said I'd be busy, I didn't think it would be this long >.> RL stuffs, ahoy!

Seriously, do people still think they need to use red to get questions noticed? I never use votes while questioning and haven't had a problem with it. I mean really, when has anybody just been ignored consistently for not using a vote? Also use red for actual voting only, not explaining your point, otherwise it is just annoying for all involved.


Also you haven't actually done much at all since dropping that 'pressure vote' to try and pressure other people, so that story doesn't really check out. We still have plenty of time left in the day, why aren't you using it?

I think I'm either getting Pers' statement or yours wrong, but he said it with quotation marks--emphasizing his point. Also there could be a way to put it in detail, say, the color maroon. (Ok I'm just pulling your leg here. ) Joking aside, getting [really] back in game later.

Anywhoo

Imp

None the less, if I was running a D&D game with players, I'd feel very confident that I'd dropped a 'reasonable to catch series of clues' even for newbie players - presuming the newbies did what I asked (and what several of them said they were doing).

Haven't done a full read yet but this caught my eye (primarily because of the 15 posts per page format and your post was at the bottom. . .).

You use every kind of experience and method to analyze others?

Secondly, assuming you're town (vanilla), how would you judge a lynch on a person who you primarily think is town? What would you do-and if such, how will you further your goal of picking out the 'badguys'. Wait till next day, let the lynch off, or...?


kleril

@All: How would you describe your typical playstyle as town? As scum?

I...post. And I...play. I am an amorphous creature. I change my playstyle every game. I love playing with psychology and philosophy, and generally play for fun rather than egoistical pleasure.

...So yeah. My playstyle is to post. To be pertinent in the post. And to have fun.

How would this generalistic point of view help you?

It doesn't help immensely, but it does shape a picture of you. Some aspects of your post set off my gut in certain ways, but nothing more.
I was hoping your response would glean more about what to expect from you, but I guess it set the stage well enough.

...I do hope that my posts aren't the main cause of gastrointestinal anomalies, because I really don't see how one of my first posts gets your gut in a tussle. What did you see wrong there? Is my shape coming off wrong or unconventional to you?

And on that matter-will what I've said before, in this context, be or seem like a good baseline to hold me to in the future?


NQT

Tiruin

Tiruin— How do you learn the most from Day One before there's been any kind of flip?

Just as much as anyone learns-via observation. The flip only acts as a dead-end of sorts, to debase or debunk any relative or leading conclusions or notions. If deviations are to follow from said flip, then that is generally a note of suspicion. However I learn usually via observation, and primarily by questioning.

You say deviations, but deviations from what? Do you think there is value in discussing the Day One flip on Day Two?

What use is asking my learning style, given how learning is such a general term? Would it help you understand me more, or is there any other reason you had in mind to inquire this?

Perhaps I should have phrased my question more clearly. I didn't want to know your learning style. On Day One a lot of content is posted. There are ways of shaping discussions so that in future days we can learn things from the interactions. I wanted to see your perspective on this. To put things another way: how should you act on Day One. 'Observation' and 'questions' is so vague. What are observing? What kind of questions are you asking?

> Deviations - something amiss from the train of thought on the moment. The situation is vague or too general to put in exacts, so I tagged it with the most specific term I had at mind, a deviation of, or based on the flip and any preceding thoughts, and to compare pre and post-flip notes of each and every person.

> "Ouch. So you really don't want to know me?
"Ok, that came off too mellow. I'm wearing an Inquisitorial hat for a reason! :I"


The point of observation is reasoning in itself. You observe. Right now, I stare at a bunch of figures and shapes termed letters at a screen and analyze upon a given basepoint--this is what is observing, in my idea. On the basis, I try to find how relevant or pertinent a person's mode of inquiry goes--that is the analysis. People are shooting off many questions around and so forth, yet I feel like some questions are being subtle in context. The queries I ask are what pertain to my suspicions. No more, no less.

"Also there's a spider on your shoulder."

All else is just for fun and games on my point. It's like conversation-you can pick out what is sarcasm or trivial to the point if you listen. If not, you poke everything.

ToonyMan

Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.

...And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?

Tiruin

Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.

Yet you're only reacting to questions when asked. Are you going to do some scumhunting of your own?

Interesting vision there Caz, do you not see scumhunting in the questions I return to the person? Do you see those questions proposed to me as scumhunting?

Or are you just poking me here for the superficial notice that you are 'scumhunting'?

Jim Groovester: You have been resurrected from death. How would you proceed, and how do you convince the town not to lynch you?

Tiruin lowers the front of her hat in a way that it points towards you.
"I am suspicious, sir."
This seems specific, and then moving to a general thought. What is your thinking behind the bolded part and why that exact proposition?

Max

Tiruin

Why are you asking these definites? Why are you asking my preference given that context?

Given context is RVS, so expect a few random questions.
As for why that question in particular, apart from the fact that it is vague enough in terms of what would be seen as the 'correct' answer to make somebody think they might be making a mistake and get a little defensive, it could provide a little future insight... Maybe. People get paranoid and think more about what could end them rather than what they would end others with, so I guess if you wanted to tag answers then scum would be more worried about their own defense, and town would be more worried about the scum offense... But that hardly qualifies you as confirmed town, and you shouldn't really tag answers like that.

The question served its purpose in providing the potential for new discussion, that is why I'm asking your preferences in that context.

But..but the new discussion left itself on a declarative sentence! D:

Also, I feel like we're...misinterpreting(?) each other? I can't see how I'm tagging something (wherein tagging = exact labeling) other than giving my point there. Or..are you discussing how my actions would relate to being town and how it would stick out to the general public?

Most of that statement is subjective. Paranoia exists in a state wherein it is offset by a trigger--where the right combination of words in general would strike at them, usually in aggression. The mysterious-detective type comes to mind when I think in literature.

Buuut, point taken. Discussion, yes.

...Why did you put in the notion of qualifying as town or not?

[Tiruin]

Jim Groovester

If I was resurrected as non-town I would do nothing until I could win. It's lame, but it's worked in the past.

What does 'do nothing' consist of as a playstyle?

Play a normal day game, but don't use any actions, otherwise you might get found out and summarily lynched.

Being passive is about the only viable strategy for resurrected anti-town third party.

Ok, general query. Powers change by resurrections and stuff like that? Why would you get summarily lynched on being 'found out'? That's a whole slew of things to be if you're found-track/watch/inspect/bus(?)...

...What does 'normal day game' mean anyway? Don't the actions pertain to either your new role or your old-pre-resurrect role? And can't you defend yourself when...'found out'?

Because that's just a real cheap strategy. Passivity. Only those who are vanilla would go on that note.

[Jim Groovester]

So when somebody rolls a Priest in this game, they get to resurrect somebody of their choice, but the catch is that they have a hidden piety level that affects how the player comes back. This is to prevent people from becoming confirmed townies (which are lame).

If they're saintly, then the person they resurrect comes back as their original alignment. If they're not saintly, then they come back as something nasty, like a Devil or a Demon. Or a Lone Vampire. Or if there's a scum Priest, the person who gets resurrected can come back as a member of the scum team. (If you're not familiar with these roles I suggest browsing the end of game role list in previous Supernaturals.)

Resurrection is not hidden, and since the person being resurrected can come back as a myriad of potentially hostile alignments, it pays off for everybody else to be extremely watchful about the player.

E.G., if somebody gets resurrected on N2, and then there's an extra kill on N3 (keeping in mind that Meph does not disguise nightkill sources in day opening flavor) then it's obvious that the resurrected player came back as a Demon.

So what is a freshly resurrected player to do if he comes back as anything besides town? It depends on what he comes back as, but generally, do nothing, since any variation from your established role (which flipped on your first death, mind you) means you're some kind of nasty scum.

[Max White]

Tiruin

But..but the new discussion left itself on a declarative sentence! D:

Also, I feel like we're...misinterpreting(?) each other? I can't see how I'm tagging something (wherein tagging = exact labeling) other than giving my point there. Or..are you discussing how my actions would relate to being town and how it would stick out to the general public?

Most of that statement is subjective. Paranoia exists in a state wherein it is offset by a trigger--where the right combination of words in general would strike at them, usually in aggression. The mysterious-detective type comes to mind when I think in literature.

Buuut, point taken. Discussion, yes.

...Why did you put in the notion of qualifying as town or not?

You right, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I used the word 'you' figuratively, as in 'you shouldn't touch a hot stove', rather than referring to you personally. I'm not saying you were trying to make one answer scum and the other town, I'm just saying that binary thinking is bad in general.

Jim
Have we ever had a player come back town but with a different role? There was something about a lone vampire who pimped himself out to the town in exchange for a chance to full a survivor role, but that is still technically third party. Has anybody ever still been a townie, but with a new skill set?

You know I should probably actually read some of the past games some time, maybe figure out what some of the roles on the front page do.

[notquitethere]

Kleril

I plan on improving by taking a more offensive stance, and not just sitting back while things happen around me. Last game nearly all of my replies were defensively replying to accusatory posts, and that didn't help much. Speaking up when I notice things, and when they don't sit right with my gut.

There's this idea in chess (and other games) called momentum, if you're always reacting to the other player's move they've got momentum. You need to seize momentum by proactively asking questions and querying other player's behaviour. Has anything struck you as odd so far?

Persus

*realizes pressure vote is still on NQT*

Unvote on NQT.

That's very nice of you but you could also answer the outstanding question:

notquitethere: Is this question the wrong question to ask and why is that?

It's only a wrong question at this stage of the game if you learn nothing from my response. What have you learned from my response?

Max

That is a strangely worded question. Do you mean to ask what would be a tell that the day 1 lynch is going to flip town?

That's what I meant, yes. Your answer then?

Anyway, so now we have context to your mistake. You did it because it is the early game and you're not good at early game, and by 'you' you apparently meant everybody, and for some reason you felt incline to clarify that you meant everybody and then go on to tell me how you personally do in the early game. So what am I expected to draw from this context? What difference am I meant to see from you in regards to whether your answers are carefully deliberated or from instinct?
Should I just dismiss scum tells because you didn't spend fifteen minutes carefully picking over your post to make sure there were none, or should I be even more inquisitive about mistakes people make when they are most likely to give themselves away?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I should say, my play specifically on Day One sometimes suffers mis-steps because I prefer concrete information and also I occasionally don't think about my precise wording when I post. Everyone in general's play on Day One is also hampered by the fact that there's nothing concrete to work off. I made a mistake in asking you a question about an unanswered question and this was quickly remedied— what more is there to say? I'm glad you answered the question eventually: I have a greater understanding of your rationale now than I did at the beginning of the game. If you think I have displayed a scum-tell then by all means say so and place a vote.

Cmega

@All - If you had to choose between scum & town, which one would you? Why?

The point in asking questions at the beginning of the game is to set traps and to learn perspectives. What do you hope to gain from this? Let's say I'd prefer to be scum because then I'd get to have a fun secret chat and I've never got to do this on this forum before (in the dozen or so mafia games I've played here, I've never had a scumchat). Well, that tells you something of my overall preferences but I doubt it tells you anything of my actual alignment. Or do you disagree?

Toony

Another question: do you think Imp's actions look more like a scum avoid-antagonising-people strategy or an earnest misunderstanding (or something else)?

Jim

I'm just getting started.

I'll be watching to see to what extent you get started. Do you think the influx of newplayers will hamper town's ability to scumhunt?

How is cop an impossible wincon? Or survivor? Just because you lost those games doesn't mean that they were unwinnable.

It makes me really curious to know what you consider winnable when cop and survivor aren't. Might be something nasty.

Town cop isn't an unwinnable role, and I shouldn't have written things in a way that implies that it is. I've died twice on N1 as town cop in two BM's and then had the game go on to a town-loss: BM's on this subforum are heavily weighted towards scum, and obviously if I die after the first day there's very little I personally can do to help win them. Survivor probably isn't unwinnable, though I've never won as a survivor: it's just much much harder to win because most other alignments don't require living until the end, and there's very little to prevent scum from thinking you're a town-player and offing you in the night. I consider town and scum very winnable, and I was pleased to be regular town rather than a third party this game. I'll probably still lose because I'm cursed, but for now I'm optimistic.

Caz

I think someone asked me this earlier, yeah. I've played a few beginner mafias and had some fun on the mafia irc. Read through all of the previous Supernatural games on this board to get up to speed, though.

So this isn't your first spin round the merry-go-round, good. Scum can win by getting by without too much scrutiny: who hasn't received enough pressure yet?

Tiruin

> Deviations - something amiss from the train of thought on the moment. The situation is vague or too general to put in exacts, so I tagged it with the most specific term I had at mind, a deviation of, or based on the flip and any preceding thoughts, and to compare pre and post-flip notes of each and every person.

Okay, that makes sense.

> "Ouch. So you really don't want to know me?
"Ok, that came off too mellow. I'm wearing an Inquisitorial hat for a reason! :I"

"!" I'm more than happy to know you. Merely, that wasn't the purpose of my question at the time.

The point of observation is reasoning in itself. You observe. Right now, I stare at a bunch of figures and shapes termed letters at a screen and analyze upon a given basepoint--this is what is observing, in my idea. On the basis, I try to find how relevant or pertinent a person's mode of inquiry goes--that is the analysis. People are shooting off many questions around and so forth, yet I feel like some questions are being subtle in context. The queries I ask are what pertain to my suspicions. No more, no less.

Okay, that's all very good as far as it goes. What I wanted to know is what specifically you were looking for. Is it deviations from some unstated norm?

[Tiruin]

NQT:
I note that you seem to be voting or FoS'ing people who miss your questions? Something wrong with it?

Okay, that's all very good as far as it goes. What I wanted to know is what specifically you were looking for. Is it deviations from some unstated norm?

...I ran out of synonyms to "what seems weird given how x is and what y claims or that z stated-..." so I went with the best term in my head. It's not a definite term so...yeah, I went with the nearest thing I found that matched what I thought.

Erm, to continue if we don't understand each other thoroughly--I learn through complex everything. Like reading a book, you ponder and analyze what is given to you to sense, and then conclude from what is given based on your goal. If you wish to learn, you internalize and apply or reflect. Just like if you scumhunt, you internalize and view somesuch as somesuch, and if something's anyway bit awry with it, then there is generally a note for suspicion.

Fixed that enough?

Spoiler: Probably OOC to Max: General question (click to show/hide)

[...] I'm just saying that binary thinking is bad in general.

Binary thinking? I can't read binary :x

Jim

So when somebody rolls a Priest in this game, they get to resurrect somebody of their choice, but the catch is that they have a hidden piety level that affects how the player comes back. This is to prevent people from becoming confirmed townies (which are lame).

If they're saintly, then the person they resurrect comes back as their original alignment. If they're not saintly, then they come back as something nasty, like a Devil or a Demon. Or a Lone Vampire. Or if there's a scum Priest, the person who gets resurrected can come back as a member of the scum team. (If you're not familiar with these roles I suggest browsing the end of game role list in previous Supernaturals.)

Resurrection is not hidden, and since the person being resurrected can come back as a myriad of potentially hostile alignments, it pays off for everybody else to be extremely watchful about the player.

E.G., if somebody gets resurrected on N2, and then there's an extra kill on N3 (keeping in mind that Meph does not disguise nightkill sources in day opening flavor) then it's obvious that the resurrected player came back as a Demon.

So what is a freshly resurrected player to do if he comes back as anything besides town? It depends on what he comes back as, but generally, do nothing, since any variation from your established role (which flipped on your first death, mind you) means you're some kind of nasty scum.

...But that's just like a new game of sorts. People don't know your role and can only infer such from later actions - you may be town, scum or some silly variant of death and destruction and chaos and argh. The difference is that everyone else probably has a heads-up on you via information while you lounged in the room of the dead and traversed the rotating door of mortality, meaning: you got extra notes from Meph.

Reading back, most players did a "Alright guys I'm back and I'm [ALIGNMENT_X/Y/Z]" as in they claimed alignment post-resurrection.
...Which is kinda silly given what I'm thinking, as stated above. I mean, sure, the priest can claim..but they don't know their piety either, as far as I read back.

[ToonyMan]

@Imp:

Toonyman:
If you asked someone a question and they didn't answer it, what would your next step be?

Ask them why that is or maybe vote them over it even.

What if they answered a different, though similar question, but not what you asked, and their answer didn't include the information that prompted you to ask?

By "information that I asked" do you mean the answer I was looking for?  I would try to avoid single-minding yourself like that, but if their answer seemed unclear then yeah, I'm going to ask for clarity.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like feeling challenged?  Feeling successful?  Feeling useful?  Feeling clever?

Okay uh, 8/10 for all of those.  I've never been particularly good at being a genius.


@Caz:

ToonyMan

No, a town player's life is worth less than a mafia player's life in terms of value to each side.  Sacrifice a knight for a rook, not the other way around.

So you're saying that townies are more likely to attempt tunneling?

It's less of a sacrifice to do so, but I don't think it's a very good idea unless you know what you're doing.


@Max White:

Toony
Putting your education before internet games, for shame!
Will you have a chance to really be active any time soon? I have no read on you what so ever, and that annoys me.

Unfortunately, probably not until Friday or this weekend.  Ideally, I won't die by then so it should work out.

I think another factor is I uh, don't really know half of the players here, which makes it more difficult to see odd behavior since that's all you can really go on Day 1.


@Tiruin:

ToonyMan

Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.

...And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?

It's misleading, any form of distraction from the truth can be read as a scumtell and I think Imp is too good a player to make that error.


@NQT:

Toony

Another question: do you think Imp's actions look more like a scum avoid-antagonising-people strategy or an earnest misunderstanding (or something else)?

They should know better.

[Tiruin]

ToonyMan

@Tiruin:

ToonyMan

Also I'm voting Imp for voting a player who doesn't exist, you should know better.

...And this signifies her being or having the characteristic of scum because...?

It's misleading, any form of distraction from the truth can be read as a scumtell and I think Imp is too good a player to make that error.

You mean voting Webadict, seemingly missing the context in which she voted Webadict for, but in general who isn't actually playing?

I think you missed her reason there.

Cmega3

Cmega

@All - If you had to choose between scum & town, which one would you? Why?

The point in asking questions at the beginning of the game is to set traps and to learn perspectives. What do you hope to gain from this? Let's say I'd prefer to be scum because then I'd get to have a fun secret chat and I've never got to do this on this forum before (in the dozen or so mafia games I've played here, I've never had a scumchat). Well, that tells you something of my overall preferences but I doubt it tells you anything of my actual alignment. Or do you disagree?

I disagree. One careless mistake in your answer to that question can help a lot later on.

...There's a mistake in choosing a preferred faction including reasoning on it? Preferably expound, good sir.

[Tiruin]

But...but you missed on two crucial parts regarding that.

1.	What do you hope to gain from this [question that you asked]?

2. If there was any mistake to be made, what would it generally be?
3. What was your intent on asking that question if it was to be directed to everyone?

[Tiruin]

Missed these questions D:

And on my record-those were THREE crucial parts.

Tiruin:  What's your take on Jim's opinion of general questions,

General questions are useless since they lack the pointedness of their focused counterparts.

and his preference of not answering them?

For that matter, you answered most of the general questions, but not either of mine.  Why not?

...Jim's like that :v
Is what I would say. He's snarky. But snarky-friendly. If you wish to address him (which seem to be the only ones he's not addressing = general unaddressive ones), then invoke his name and he shall answer. Also, he responds in a notoriously funny snarky way, that currently I've been too exposed to it not to see it in an amusing way. Jim is amusing. He's like that.[/probablycircularlogic] I blame my first BM with him. It sorta stuck, y'know?
...I look up to him ^{there I said it. This is all in a neutral viewpoint :I}

...And for the second, I shall point up to the first sentence. I missed this. Sorry for that :x

Cmega3 - I didn't see this either! Granted, this is collaterally answered.

@Tiruin - You said you learn primarily by observation. What kind of things do you look out for? As town? As scum?

I look out for both things > Check NQT's note here.

Anyway, I'll try to clear it a bit. I look for things which intrigue the mind0--something which I could, in reference to my power, if any, would help me forward my wincon in relation to said power, in relation to said person. They are the same things I look for regardless of faction, and mostly simple basic things.

Like asking people stuff which cause intrigue. And helping newbies. And then asking newbies stuff which cause intrigue.

[Tiruin]

Did you read the BMs as of late? I'd suggest you do that if you're lost or lacking in ideas.

Because here, I'm..really getting the 'I'm either lost or do not know how to solve this' from you--which my suspicions rate the latter as 'I don't know how to solve this without compromising myself so I'll just go with the neutral I don't know'.

...I mean, really. You don't know your own intent. Ok...Random question, ahoy?

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Caz: Tiruin
Imp: Nerjin, ToonyMan
Nerjin: Caz
notquitethere: Imp
Persus13: Jim Groovester, notquitethere


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday