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[Persus13]

@All - If you had to choose between scum & town, which one would you? Why?

I'd probably choose scum as I haven't been on the scum-team yet. Sneaking seems more fun to do than searching as well.

Jim: You seem pretty annoyed by us newbs. Who do you think can be more dangerous, newb town or newb scum and are there any special ways to tell the difference.

[ToonyMan]

ToonyMan

ToonyMan— Is tunnelling ever a legitimate town-strategy?

No not usually.  If you're right it's okay.

Do you think that it's a viable scum strategy to remove a town player, even if it results in your own death? Why/why not?

No, a town player's life is worth less than a mafia player's life in terms of value to each side.  Sacrifice a knight for a rook, not the other way around.

@ToonyMan:
What do you think is the best way to provoke a lengthy, useful response from another player?

I'd prefer concise responses without appearing like you're hiding something.  If you appear like you're hiding something or blather on about nonsense then I'd rather see you hang.

@All - If you had to choose between scum & town, which one would you? Why?

What do you expect from this really?  I think I've lost every time I was scum in Supernatural so I'd rather be town I guess.

[Jim Groovester]

kleril, so the reason I knew you didn't care about your general question at the start of the game is because I refused to answer and you haven't bothered to try and get an answer out of me. Am I wrong?

Imp, you are really wordy. Brevity is a virtue in mafia, you know.

I see that you answered the questions directed to you reasonably effectively but you didn't deign to answer any in turn. You going to let all these new kids question themselves?

Are you suggesting I'm deficient because I'm not hogging all the fun for myself?

I'm just getting started.

Spoiler: Why I might just win this time (click to show/hide)

I don't have an impossible-to-fulfil wincon for once.

This is interesting.

As for impossible wincons. The last five games:

• In Witches I had to kill all third parties before all the witches were killed, including killing ZU four times
• In Princess I had to survive a whole game where death was meted out by scum randomly
• In BM XLII I died N1 as the cop in a game fraught with participation issues
• In Toon I had to spend a night alone in a room with a boy in a game where not all the other players could be relied on to rationally play to their wincons
• In the Great Temple (though I also admit to lousy play here) I was pretty much the only player that didn't have a power in a game with dubious mechanics

No, this time I have a normal role (town, since you asked). Most of the other players in this game seem somewhat competent, I trust that the game set-up isn't completely broken, and it's at least not out of the realms of possibility that if I die tonight, I'll still win the game. You seem to be saying that scum and town wincons are impossible: what do you know that I don't?

How is cop an impossible wincon? Or survivor? Just because you lost those games doesn't mean that they were unwinnable.

It makes me really curious to know what you consider winnable when cop and survivor aren't. Might be something nasty.

Toonyman:  Welcome in late to the party!  If your role gave you a one shot daykill which had to be used on D1 or not at all, who's your pick and why?

Jim, he's scary.

:I

Tiruin dons her Inquisitorial hat and robe.

I like where this game is going!

Jim Groovester: You have been resurrected from death. How would you proceed, and how do you convince the town not to lynch you?

Resurrected as what?

People resurrected come back as different alignments. They could be town, they could be scum, they could be benign-ish third parties, they could be malicious third parties.

Because of all these possibilities, you're generally locked into one playstyle: pretend to be town. It's pretty unsatisfying being resurrected because everybody has their eye on you and if anything that didn't happen before happens guess who's first on the list for everybody to look at.

If I was resurrected as non-town I would do nothing until I could win. It's lame, but it's worked in the past.

@Jim:
If you had to lynch all players but two (excepting yourself, of course), who would they be, and why?

The two people I didn't think were scum, of course.

Did you want names? That's kind of silly and premature at this stage of the game.

At the time of asking it I did care. After a few people answered and I re-read the OP I realized I was being dumb and have since stated, in thread I believe, that the question was basically worthless.

Why did you care about it?

Omega3: You decided to unvote NQT or not?

This is the only thing you can think of to ask? What do you care whether Cmega3 unvotes notquitethere?

Here, I've got one for you. What do you make of this vote?

Persus13.

Jim: You seem pretty annoyed by us newbs. Who do you think can be more dangerous, newb town or newb scum and are there any special ways to tell the difference.

Because you're all on my damn lawn!

The n00b is dangerous because he has a vote and the ability to cast in whatever way he feels is best, which usually is pretty terrible. More often than not, however, the noob is more a danger to himself than anybody else.

Newb scum and newb town do cleave to separate tells, but those are trade secrets. Sorry, bud.

[Imp]

Toonyman:
If you asked someone a question and they didn't answer it, what would your next step be?  What if they answered a different, though similar question, but not what you asked, and their answer didn't include the information that prompted you to ask?

On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like feeling challenged?  Feeling successful?  Feeling useful?  Feeling clever?

Cmega3:
There's at least one word missing from this question!  Did you do that on purpose?

@All - If you had to choose between [missing word(s)] scum & town, which one would you? Why?

What's your intention?  I can see 'playing as' or 'voting for' as being the most likely possibles.

Also, when I asked this:

Do you control your vote, or would you prefer that others control it?  When someone tells you your argument is weak, does that mean your argument is actually weak?

Those were not actually rhetorical questions.  Would you please answer them?

Persus13:
Imagine your role made you be a Town fortune teller this game.  During N1 you make your selection of who to inspect and receive a result of 'changer' from it.  There was no kill N1.  Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2?  Why or why not?

Max White:

Shame, vampires might be absolute unbalenced bullshit, but at least it is bullshit you can get drafted into. Vanilla mafia just boots you out of the game.

Lets say that happens: your role started as Town, and a cult or other converter successfully changed your wincon, changed it so that you now have a diametrically opposed wincon (Maybe killing most of town; maybe being a specific Scum's guardian angel).  Do you believe you'd feel any negative reaction to having your previous wincon and whatever work you'd already put into it taken from you?  Do you believe you'd have trouble concealing your change in goals as you tried to achieve your new wincon?

Tiruin:
Imagine your role made you be a Cult Sexton this game.  During N1 you are informed that the grave of the D1 lynch (a townsperson) has been disturbed - in fact the body is missing!  No mention is made of that person's reappearance during D2's opening post and the posts in Scumchat tell you that no Scum was involved in this disappearance.  Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2?  Why or why not?

Jim:
In general, how careful would you say you are to make sure that you are being accurate, particularly before you close off a route of inquiry or a line of thought?  Does that level of care differ when it is your inquiry or line of thought, or another person's?  Does your level of care change when the other person's inquiry or line of thought is being presented by an experienced player versus a newbie?

Caz:
You seemed to ignore a good portion of my words to you here.  I asked a question.  It's not been answered yet, so I'm going to repeat it in the spoiler below, and ask for an explanation of why you didn't bother to answer it when you responded to my answer to you.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And I'd like to ask you about this -

Why would I try to stop you making mistakes? Isn't that why we are here?

It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum.

Part of my job (maybe everyone's) is to attempt to find the Scum, no matter who they are.  You could be Scum, none of the 'uninformed majority' knows either way.  It's said that it's harder to be the 'informed minority' and act like you don't know what you do indeed know, but also know most other players do not.  Newbies make mistakes, but so too do Scum, and it may well be impossible to try to stop (  I don't like the use of the word 'stop' there.  correct?  forgive?  overlook?  ignore?  Something along those lines is what would actually be happening) newbie mistakes without also stopping Scum mistakes.

Please consider this - then explain to me your choice of either:  Why the reasoning in the above paragraph is wrong.
Or:  Accepting and including that reasoning, what your new answer to Max White's question would be if you were answering it again now.

Nerjin:

@Imp
How sure are you about your theory? I like it. I really do. It'd be friekin' AMAZING but... This is beginner friendly. Why waste your vote like that? Hows-about you actually put it towards something useful until Mod confirmation?

I agree that a vote was not the only way I could have tested my theory, and indeed I tested it with words and questions as well.  Given that at the time you made this post four of us had not yet used their vote in any fashion - how was my action 'wasting' my vote?

Kleril:
Imagine your role made you be a Devil in this game.  If you had to pick right now, which other player would you first approach to deal with, and why would you choose that player?

[Persus13]

Omega3: You decided to unvote NQT or not?

This is the only thing you can think of to ask? What do you care whether Cmega3 unvotes notquitethere?

Here, I've got one for you. What do you make of this vote?

Persus13.

It was mainly a question of clarification. Cmega3 said here he was unvoting NQT, but didn't put in red so when Meph posted a votecount his vote was still counting towards NQT. I was trying to figure out if he still wanted to vote NQT or not. As for not asking question this is my first time doing RVS (I replaced into Beginner's Mafia) and until people start talking a lot I'm not sure how to get people there.

Persus13:
Imagine your role made you be a Town fortune teller this game.  During N1 you make your selection of who to inspect and receive a result of 'changer' from it.  There was no kill N1.  Do you take any sort of action which might expose your role on D2?  Why or why not?

I would wait a day, and check some of the old Supernatural games to see what was wrong unless I was going to get lynched that day or I thought I'd get converted/night-killed that night.

[Caz]

kleril

I never said it was a good playstyle. I'm fairly dead weight, as far as I'm concerned. I do not wish to try flying under the radar, but I really don't want a repeat of last game. Getting lynched as town ain't fun.

Why are you so concerned about being lynched? Is that your main priority in the game so far?

notquitethere

The issue here is that pressure has no force if it's not backed with the possibility of lynching. Also, it's hard to know whether someone genuinely is the most suspicious player, if a whole bunch of players haven't said anything. For the first day of the day, I'm pleased everyone has now posted, let's hope that keeps up.

Yeah, hopefully we don't get any severe lurkers in this game. I get what you're saying about the pressure and how it's hard to tell if lurkers are scummy or not. General strategies are nice but we still have to base each lynch on a case-by-case basis.

You've probably been asked this already or before, but have you played much mafia before?

I think someone asked me this earlier, yeah. I've played a few beginner mafias and had some fun on the mafia irc. Read through all of the previous Supernatural games on this board to get up to speed, though.

Imp

First, there are only 11 players, not 12.

Well, there goes that theory. Either Imp was being overly cautious, or is just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion going on. What do you say to that, Imp?

Max White

I learnt that talking to NQT is a rich and satisfying experience.

So how does he feel to you? Does having a 'rich and satisfying experience' convince you that he is town?

Cmega3

@Caz - If you where scum, and saw a town player falsely say they are scum, what would you think of them? Would you consider the possibility they know something you don't know they could?

I would wonder why they were trying to get themselves lynched. (Super-saint, perhaps?) It would depend who I thought they had a bead on - if they weren't suspicious of me, I would try to get them lynched. I would avoid hammering because there's some roles that kill the last person who voted (not sure about this setup, though).
What would be a reason for you to claim as scum when you are town-aligned?

ToonyMan

No, a town player's life is worth less than a mafia player's life in terms of value to each side.  Sacrifice a knight for a rook, not the other way around.

So you're saying that townies are more likely to attempt tunneling?

Jim Groovester

If I was resurrected as non-town I would do nothing until I could win. It's lame, but it's worked in the past.

What does 'do nothing' consist of as a playstyle?

Imp

Caz:
You seemed to ignore a good portion of my words to you here.  I asked a question.  It's not been answered yet, so I'm going to repeat it in the spoiler below, and ask for an explanation of why you didn't bother to answer it when you responded to my answer to you.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And I'd like to ask you about this -

Why would I try to stop you making mistakes? Isn't that why we are here?

It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum.

Part of my job (maybe everyone's) is to attempt to find the Scum, no matter who they are.  You could be Scum, none of the 'uninformed majority' knows either way.  It's said that it's harder to be the 'informed minority' and act like you don't know what you do indeed know, but also know most other players do not.  Newbies make mistakes, but so too do Scum, and it may well be impossible to try to stop (  I don't like the use of the word 'stop' there.  correct?  forgive?  overlook?  ignore?  Something along those lines is what would actually be happening) newbie mistakes without also stopping Scum mistakes.

Please consider this - then explain to me your choice of either:  Why the reasoning in the above paragraph is wrong.
Or:  Accepting and including that reasoning, what your new answer to Max White's question would be if you were answering it again now.

Ah, sorry about that. I did read it and meant to compose an answer then somehow missed it on the write-through. Your wording is a confusing. You're basically saying that people shouldn't help newbies because they might be helping scum, correct? I guess I can agree with that.

As for re: my new reply to Max White, there'd be no change to it. I was more curious in his answer to my question than actually receiving any help.

Persus13: If you were scum, what would be your strategy to get through Day 1 without notice?

[Persus13]

Persus13: If you were scum, what would be your strategy to get through Day 1 without notice?

I have no clue. Do what I'd normally do except scum-hunt those I know aren't scum. Other than Cmega, I'm probably the most newb player in the game (on par with Kleril)

[Imp]

Caz:

Your wording is a confusing. You're basically saying that people shouldn't help newbies because they might be helping scum, correct?

No.  I'd be interested in you explaining more about what's confusing about my wording, if you're willing to explain that further.

First remember this conversation's context:

Spoiler: quotes placed here, for easy reference (click to show/hide)

Caz: One of many new faces to me! Tell me, have you much experience with games of this nature that aren't as clear cut?

Nope! I have no idea what I'm doing. Played a few beginner mafias and enjoyed the #mafia irc. I read through the previous Supernatural games to get a feel, though. Any common newbie mistakes I should watch out for?

And I'd like to ask you about this -

Why would I try to stop you making mistakes? Isn't that why we are here?

It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum.

Part of my job (maybe everyone's) is to attempt to find the Scum, no matter who they are.  You could be Scum, none of the 'uninformed majority' knows either way.  It's said that it's harder to be the 'informed minority' and act like you don't know what you do indeed know, but also know most other players do not.  Newbies make mistakes, but so too do Scum, and it may well be impossible to try to stop (  I don't like the use of the word 'stop' there.  correct?  forgive?  overlook?  ignore?  Something along those lines is what would actually be happening) newbie mistakes without also stopping Scum mistakes.

Please consider this - then explain to me your choice of either:  Why the reasoning in the above paragraph is wrong.
Or:  Accepting and including that reasoning, what your new answer to Max White's question would be if you were answering it again now.

You'd asked about newbie mistakes to watch out for.  He's said that he's not going to try and stop you from making those newbie mistakes - you answered with garbage: boldly stating that 'it's in his best interest for you to play effectively, unless he's Scum.'

First off, you're assuming that newbie mistakes replace and prevent effective play - instead both are likely to be present in a newbie's play, if that newbie's actually trying to actively play and achieve their wincon.

Secondly, you (appear to) assume that it's possible to turn you into an effective player by pointing out common newbie mistakes you should watch for.  That's farcically incorrect.

Thirdly, you make the claim that it's in his best interests to invest time, effort, energy, and whatever else it takes, not into Scumhunting, but into making sure that -you- play effectively (or he's Scum).  Do you really intend to state that?

You're basically saying that people shouldn't help newbies because they might be helping scum, correct? I guess I can agree with that.

No, I am not.  Helping newbies (or even experienced players) be they Scum or Town is a completely separate issue from FINDING SCUM.  Both can be done AT THE SAME TIME.  To quote a wise IC, the best and clearest IC advice I have yet spotted in my readthroughs of games here:

For those of you who don't know what to do ... find scum, which is your primary goal.

And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.

If you're scum, you will obviously have a different goal: Avoid detection until the end of the game. The best way to do this is to look like you are trying to find scum.

...So be bold, and just do the best you can. You're going to play this by aggressively questioning everything you find odd or scummy. This is to get you in the habit of asking questions a lot, since that's how the game of mafia is played and won.

As for re: my new reply to Max White, there'd be no change to it. I was more curious in his answer to my question than actually receiving any help.

Does this help you understand why I was interested in your answer to Max White?  I have no contention with your curiosity about his answer - but do you -still- wish to stand by your declaration of garbage in answer to his question?

It's in your best interests for me to play effectively, unless you are scum.

Imp

First, there are only 11 players, not 12.

Well, there goes that theory. Either Imp was being overly cautious, or is just spinning bullshit to distract from the real discussion going on. What do you say to that, Imp?

I say that your interpretation of the 'two and only two' possible explanations for my behavior and psychology is too narrow and does not include a correct interpretation.

I say that I have shown something of the range of Scumhunting I am willing to do, some of the complexity of thought that I'm willing and able to use in that Scumhunting, some of my attitude about taking risks with my Scumhunting, and some of my willingness to let a 'proved closed' trail go when it has been proved closed.

What do you say, about the BS you've been spewing?

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Caz: notquitethere
Imp: Nerjin, ToonyMan
Nerjin: Caz
notquitethere: Imp
Persus13: Jim Groovester


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday

[notquitethere]

Pfp (busy weekend so will resume usual service by GMT Sunday evening)

To address Imp's question: when I asked the question I didn't realise their last game was the one I'm Scum IC in. As they're a (now dead and flipped) town player I didn't ever have direct dealings with them. Obviously, I read the main thread, but I don't necessarily recall all the usernames of new players. We should refrain from talking about current games though. The reason I asked my question was because I wanted to get a sense as to whether Kleril genuinely was looking out for anything different this game. Paradoxocally, a lot of scumhunting consists in assertaining whether your fellows are really scumhunting...

Will get to all other conversations in my next post.

[notquitethere]

Oh and unvote, Caz has been fine so far.

[Max White]

Imp

Lets say that happens: your role started as Town, and a cult or other converter successfully changed your wincon, changed it so that you now have a diametrically opposed wincon (Maybe killing most of town; maybe being a specific Scum's guardian angel).  Do you believe you'd feel any negative reaction to having your previous wincon and whatever work you'd already put into it taken from you?  Do you believe you'd have trouble concealing your change in goals as you tried to achieve your new wincon?

I'd be very happy with that, scum is fun. As for concealing a change in goals, that really depends on what was going on the day before. Sometimes the new information might make things a little awkward, but in general I think it would be fine.

Plus I would get to feel all smug about being converted instead of Jim... Unless he is scum, in that case I would be ok with a buddy that knows what he is doing I guess.
Moral of the story is that it is a game, I'm not going to get upset about too upset about mechanics that keep me playing.

Caz

So how does he feel to you? Does having a 'rich and satisfying experience' convince you that he is town?

Not particularly. Why, you worried?
He seems to think scum tells aren't scum tells if you can make up a reason for them and say sorry, and frankly that is bullshit.

Toony
Putting your education before internet games, for shame!
Will you have a chance to really be active any time soon? I have no read on you what so ever, and that annoys me.

Persus13
I just noticed that you dropped your pressure vote on NQT right after he got a third vote on him. Why do you think a non-vote was worth more than a pressure vote at that point?

[Persus13]

Persus13
I just noticed that you dropped your pressure vote on NQT right after he got a third vote on him. Why do you think a non-vote was worth more than a pressure vote at that point?

Well, no one seems scummy enough to warrant a lynch vote at the moment, and the reason I voted him was to have him answer a dumb question I asked. He answered my question satisfactorily and I hadn't unvoted him yet and getting home from school and seeing the vote tally made me sure to unvote him. SO my vote had served its purpose and I was unvoting while trying to think about who else could i question.

[Max White]

And who else have you questioned?
Not counting that query thrown at Jim in regards to why he was annoyed at all the inexperience, considering you never followed it up or anything.

[Imp]

Persus13:

Discuss your theory on the difference between 'pressure votes' and 'lynch votes'?  Some of the stuff I'm wondering about, what's is that difference between them, what tells you when someone's vote is for pressure or when its for lynch?  When and how does one become the other, and does that order reverse sometimes too?