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[Hapah]

Quick post, short on time tonight.

Hapah:

So you're not even going to look at the line of reasoning? You're just going to jump on me because the text was blue instead of red? Would YOU ever use the ability Toony has described?

Don't worry, I looked at it.  I'd just like to point out that you're taking the witch words at face value.  How do you know Dariush was telling the truth?

Read it again. It wasn't about if Dar was telling the truth, it was about if Toony was telling the truth. The information provided seems good enough, but the source seemed more than a little questionable. Given that Toony can apparently post the chat and it appears to be authentic, though, I guess I can let it go.

Question is, what state would the game be in where the death shaman is unable to die?

Witch majority.

Assuming he doesn't have a kill, anyway. Since he's a Death shaman it doesn't seem that far-fetched, yeah?

Toony: Looks like you're off the hook for being a Witch, as far as I'm concerned. Anything interesting in the omitted LNCP posts?

[Lenglon]

Lenglon:  I'll grant that I never gave your referenced post a great reply (other than "don't buy into Tiruin's crap," which still holds) but I'm curious why you ignored it all of D2 if it's such a big thing.  What happened there?

Priorities. I can only have my vote in one place at a time. If I was going to pressure Leafsnail properly, I needed my vote on him. same goes for Dariush, and in both cases the situation was time-critical. My issues with you could wait, so I let it drop until I finished getting the reads I needed from the two of them, which in Dariush's case, I wasn't certain until he flipped. then we had a really long night during which I forgot what I was thinking about people, so it took me a while to get myself re-organized and back to pressing you on the subject.

I'll say it again:  I am *fully aware* that NQT answered that question.  He deflected attention after answering it.  I have said this many times.  You're also misrepresenting me:

When he got pressed on it, he said that returning a variation of a questioner's question back to the questioner, even after answering the question themselves, is scummy. that is nonsense.

As worded, this isn't true.  Returning a question is fine.  Returning a specific accusation like that in an attempt to get pressure off yourself is not.

-.-
lets break this down into two parts here, because what you just said is a half-truth at best.

Returning a specific accusation like that

here's the half that's false. there is nothing wrong with returning a specific accusation

in an attempt to get pressure off yourself

here's the half that sorta-true. illusory scumhunting that is designed purely to get pressure off yourself and not to actually find scum is problematic.

don't mix your arguments. you used the invalidity of something that never happened to describe what is at worst a null-tell as a scummy action. That is the problem. It was fine when you were using it for pressure, as a point of leverage to get information, but when you take that kind of thing and make it into a lynch case it's a whole nother matter.

Finally, Tiruin's so-called lie she called me out on- there simply is no lie.  She was making crap up at that point.

No, she was not. read the timestamps. her case was perfectly valid, although a little confusing.

And how long would you go around no-lynching?  Same question to Lenglon.

until LYLO, or (LYLO - 1 day) if I felt like I was being deceived.

[IronyOwl]

Toony:

Also, if the witches have no NK, who killed Tiruin and ZU?

I can't say I entirely trust their word.  So if anybody killed Tiruin it was the witches.  Don't know about ZU, might be some weird ability they have being the Death Shaman and all.  Either way somebody needs to revive them, unfortunately I don't have such capabilities.

Why so certain nobody but the witches have a kill, even though you say ZU might have killed himself?

Where do I say that?  I'm more confident the witches don't have a kill.  But the witches would want to see Tiruin dead so I listed it as the firmest possibility (though I admit the Death Shaman doing something as well is easily in the scope of things but the fact Tiruin went down last night too makes me think Zombie Urist killing himself and killing Tiruin as a bit OP, hence the witch claimed kill).  I don't know any other roles that would exist beyond witches, life shaman, death shaman, and townies (possibly vigs but why would a town vig kill Tiruin?)

Also, Tiruin has absolutely zero reason to suicide unless she's hoodwinking us.

Right where you say "if anybody killed Tiruin it was the witches." Why would you say "yeah if anybody did this it was X" when you didn't think X has a kill at all?

For that matter, do you think nobody being responsible is a valid possibility?


Unrelated: Why do you think LNCP specifically made it so you had no children? Seems strange to me that he'd explicitly ground this in history and then make a deliberate exception like that, don't you think?

Here it is then (from oldest to newest):

?

Where's him explicitly dismissing Leafsnail and so on?


Lenglon:

In General: I think we're focusing too much on the shamans. What happened to trying to find the witches?
Where is everyone anyway?

I disagree. I don't think witches are going to be a major threat, and if they are I don't think it'll be directly, it'll be through some other medium. Trying to figure out the shaman puzzle strikes me as probably more useful than finding witches, strange as that sounds.

I'm not fully convinced of the maiden/mother/crone thing, but it makes sense so I'm willing to work with it for now.

Why not? What pattern do you think scum is following, if not that?


NQT:

Ironyowl
I've little idea about you as a player. Deathsword's only contribution to the game was a weak wagon case that held no water. Who are your top witch picks right now?

I disagree, but my top witch picks are Lenglon and Toaster. Lenglon more for doubting a fairly obvious and straightforward theme, Toaster for being oddly single-target focused and that mother business.

That said, Lenglon's been going after Toaster for lying fairly consistently, so that's either really good distancing or they're not actually on the same team.


Toaster: Do you think witch and town wincons are compatible or incompatible?

[birdy51]

Low on time lately so I shall endeavor to make this brief.

I am a bit skeptical of this whole "Witch Spokesman" idea. Teaming up with scum is not an idea that leaves me with a lot of confidence. There has got to be an extra element about this story that we don't fully understand. Regardless, I'm willing to prolong judgment until we can see what these witches can offer us.

I will not promise an automatic No Lynch vote as that is a bit unreasonable. Nor will I say that I won't turn around and push for a witch lynch, as my wincon explicitly states "Eliminate all witches". But I am willing to listen, at least for a time.


Toaster:

Birdy:  Sorry if I missed you saying this, but are you saying you have a Town wincon or a Brother wincon?

I have a Townie wincon, eliminate all witches. I do not know what Solifuge's wincon is.

Solifuge

Alright, I am officially here now. I've yet to finish getting caught up on events, so an Extend would be lovely. If that doesn't fly, I'll try to have something to contribute by tomorrow.

"I, Mathieu Gendre(Birdy51), claim Colin Fleury(Solifuge) as my long-lost younger brother."

If you have any questions regarding the matter, feel free to ask, but for now I will tell you this. We were separated at a young age. He was month's old when our parents fell ill. I was in the middle of my apprenticeship. When both of our parents died, I was taken in by my Master. However, he could not afford both of us. This left me no choice. I was forced to leave Colin in the care of a Monastery. Thus, that is why NQT asked Solifuge if he had grown up in one.

If you are my brother, you know more than I know. I can confirm that you know my name, and that I was raised in a monastery, where I was left as a baby. Me having an estranged brother seems plausible enough, though.

Well, I never quite "abandoned" you. The death of our parents and the inability of my master to take you in as well is what caused me to leave you there in the first place.  I'm currently checking to see why I never visited though, as you would think I would have at least tried to stay in touch a little bit.

Regardless, for now you have left the Monastery and I have heard rumors that you are apprenticed to a wet cooper. How is that job going?

[Toaster]

Hapah:

Hapah:

So you're not even going to look at the line of reasoning? You're just going to jump on me because the text was blue instead of red? Would YOU ever use the ability Toony has described?

Don't worry, I looked at it.  I'd just like to point out that you're taking the witch words at face value.  How do you know Dariush was telling the truth?

Read it again. It wasn't about if Dar was telling the truth, it was about if Toony was telling the truth. The information provided seems good enough, but the source seemed more than a little questionable. Given that Toony can apparently post the chat and it appears to be authentic, though, I guess I can let it go.

Eh... I guess.

You're still not voting anyone, though.  Why?


Birdy, Irony, and Solifuge:  You are also not voting, I believe.  Why?


Lenglon:

Returning a specific accusation like that

here's the half that's false. there is nothing wrong with returning a specific accusation

in an attempt to get pressure off yourself

here's the half that sorta-true. illusory scumhunting that is designed purely to get pressure off yourself and not to actually find scum is problematic.

don't mix your arguments. you used the invalidity of something that never happened to describe what is at worst a null-tell as a scummy action. That is the problem. It was fine when you were using it for pressure, as a point of leverage to get information, but when you take that kind of thing and make it into a lynch case it's a whole nother matter.

It's all about context, here.  Let me paraphrase a bit to try and get my point across:

NQT:  My character is from out of town
Toaster:  Out of towners have historically often been third party.  Are you third party?
NQT:  Uh.. no!  But hey let's talk about this instead!
NQT:  Hey wait, aren't YOU from out of town too?

I was testing him for a reaction, and I got a noteworthy one.  It prompted me to further pressure him.  This is all standard procedure.

Finally, Tiruin's so-called lie she called me out on- there simply is no lie.  She was making crap up at that point.

No, she was not. read the timestamps. her case was perfectly valid, although a little confusing.

I have read the timestamps.  I looked back and studied this one in particular.  If you can see her point, please explain it to me, because I sure don't get it.


This does make me think of an interesting point, though.


NQT:  When I was inquisitor, my wincon was a bit different from the standard town wincon.  Is your wincon exactly the same as the town wincon?

Toaster: Do you think witch and town wincons are compatible or incompatible?

Tough call.  If WC2 is anything to go by, then they're incompatible, given the way that ended in a town loss despite eliminating the elves and the witches leaving.  I imagine they're more "game ending" wincons.  If we buy the stated witch wincon, it's obviously incompatible with the shaman wincons.  But what about shamans and townies?  If all witches are eliminated before either shaman fulfills its goal, does the game end with them losing?  If a shaman does fulfill its goal, the witches lose- do they leave?  Does the town win?  Does the town lose?  I don't know.

But to answer your question, probably not.


Birdy:  Fair enough.

[Shakerag]

LNCP:  Assuming the town wincon is to "eliminate" the witches, and assuming the witches' wincon is to prevent the death shaman from being able to die, and assuming that the witches will leave the game upon fufilling their wincon, would that result in a town win?


If the answer to that is yes, then helping the witches achieve their wincon would help the town wincon and I would have no problem cooperating with them.


Toaster:

Shakerag:

birdy51:  If I were to say that I was watching where you went last night, how would you react?

I must say, this is one heck of a limp-wristed scare attempt.

Okay. 

Regardless, it does feel like lynching is a bit of Russian roulette right now.  No lynch.

And how long would you go around no-lynching?  Same question to Lenglon.

Utill it seems that it would be detrimental to fufilling my (the town's) wincon. 

[Lenglon]

Toaster: your read of NQT's personality and communication style doesn't seem to match my own. before I continue, could you please tell me what about his posts made him seem so nervous, and how that nervousness was associated with your question, to you?

I'm not fully convinced of the maiden/mother/crone thing, but it makes sense so I'm willing to work with it for now.

Why not? What pattern do you think scum is following, if not that?

I don't know, but I think we only have a single datapoint. you can't establish a pattern from a single datapoint. Like I said, I'm willing to work with it, but I insist on keeping my mind open to other patterns.

[Hapah]

PFP

This is just a heads-up that I will be unavailable one day this weekend (not sure which day yet).

[Toaster]

Lenglon:

Toaster: your read of NQT's personality and communication style doesn't seem to match my own. before I continue, could you please tell me what about his posts made him seem so nervous, and how that nervousness was associated with your question, to you?

Okay.  Let's start with my question, and his two responses to it:

NQT:  In the first game, IIRC all the out-of-towners were third party.  Are you non-town?

Toaster

NQT:  In the first game, IIRC all the out-of-towners were third party.  Are you non-town?

"A most interesting suggestion, Monsieur Petit. I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter. But, alors! We must not rule out ze possibility of townsfolk sharing connections through similar circumstances. On zat note..."

Dariush, Deathsword, Zombie Urist
"I could not help but notice zat you are all in the clothes trade. Do any of you work closely together? Also, are any of you new to Uzès?"

--snip--

Griffinpup
"Monsieur Moreau, do you know if it is your tavern that Jean Petit [Toaster] has his vegetable wagon?"

Toaster
"Monsiuer Petit, are you not also from out of town, as a farmer yourself?"

Let's look at this in parts.  First, my question.  This is a standard reaction test question, out to see how NQT reacts.  An expected answer is a simple "Nope" or very similar.

That's not quite what we get, though.  Instead, he denies it, and immediately goes on to drawing flavor connections between other people.  He's using a similar vein of attack as me (hunting solely on flavor clues) to try to drum up some sort of team.  He then goes later on to test my flavor against someone else.

The kicker is his second reply.  Notice that there is nothing from me- and indeed, only one post- between the two posts of his.  Ottofar's post is only distant tangentially related to mine.  However, two hours later, he's still got my post on his mind.  Something about it has struck with him- I've gotten a reaction out of him that indicates my question struck some sort of chord.  This is the kind of things reaction tests are designed to draw out, and I got a positive test result.  Therefore, I piled it on him.

[ToonyMan]

PFP

I'm dead and was busy with school today, hopefully I can make something coherent tomorrow.

[Leafsnail]

Me?  It was mentioned in the PM LNCP sent me when Dariush made contact and the first reply of the quicktopic by LNCP.

Right.

No, I don't have children.  You get a vague answer because the solid answer is... none of the above.  Which of the three do you call a married man in his thirties with no children?  Too young for crone, no kids for mother, but married to strike out maiden.  I figured "none of them" wouldn't fly for an answer so I had to take some liberties.  I suppose if you want to call that old enough for crone, then crone fits better, but I don't.

Except the question I asked said:

Please categorize your role into one of these three, or say if you think you fit none of them (and explain why).

I don't understand how you could have thought "None of the above isn't an option" after reading this.

Assuming he doesn't have a kill, anyway. Since he's a Death shaman it doesn't seem that far-fetched, yeah?

If he does the witches would need a way of shutting him down (eg a roleblock).

[birdy51]

Toaster:

Birdy, Irony, and Solifuge:  You are also not voting, I believe.  Why?

I have been distracted, both in the game and outside of it. Solifuge and the brother element dictated a significant amount of my thought, and there is the ever present threat of college to worry about.  As I also mentioned earlier though, I try not to vote unless I mean business. In addition, we also have whole Death Shaman dynamic to worry about, which causes me to wonder if it would be counter-intuitive to lay down a lynch vote, lest we lynch the Death Shaman.

Shakerag:

LNCP:  Assuming the town wincon is to "eliminate" the witches, and assuming the witches' wincon is to prevent the death shaman from being able to die, and assuming that the witches will leave the game upon fufilling their wincon, would that result in a town win?


If the answer to that is yes, then helping the witches achieve their wincon would help the town wincon and I would have no problem cooperating with them.

Assuming? There is nothing to assume about the nature of our wincon.  The meaning of the word "eliminate"  seems rather clear cut. The Town wins when the witches are dead or otherwise permanently indisposed. I doubt that the Inquisition would simply allow them to go free.

birdy51:

Shakerag:

birdy51:  If I were to say that I was watching where you went last night, how would you react?

I would ask the question, "What did you see?"

To the best of my own knowledge, I did nothing last Night. However, others may have visited me without me knowing, which is just as informative. Is this the case?

Hell, I don't know.  I was just trying to see if I could bluff a reaction out of you.  Unvote.

Forgive me, but isn't it a bit late in the game for RVS questions such as that one? It strikes me odd that you would ask such a question at a time so late in the game. Aside from the possibility of me flailing, what could you have possibly gained from that question?

[Jim Groovester]

Votecount:

IronyOwl	- 0 -
Hapah	- 1 -	Toaster
Leafsnail	- 0 -
Lenglon	- 1 -	notquitethere
notquitethere	- 0 -
Solifuge	- 0 -
birdy51	- 0 -
Toaster	- 3 -	Lenglon, ToonyMan, Leafsnail
Toonyman	- 0 -
Shakerag	- 0 -
-
Not Voting	- 4 -	birdy51, Hapah, Solifuge, IronyOwl
No Lynch	- 1 -	Shakerag
-
Extend	- 1 -	Shakerag
Shorten	- 0 -

The Day will end Saturday, the 7th of September, 8PM GMT.

Four votes required to extend with one cast. Six votes required to shorten. Three extensions remain for the day.

LNCP:  Assuming the town wincon is to "eliminate" the witches, and assuming the witches' wincon is to prevent the death shaman from being able to die, and assuming that the witches will leave the game upon fufilling their wincon, would that result in a town win?

lordnincompoop will be gone through Friday.

Much as it pains me, I, as co-mod, cannot answer your query.

[Hapah]

Today was brutal, folks. Post in the morning.

[Lenglon]

Extend: so we can get an answer from LNCP before day's end, and have enough time to discuss the answer properly.

also, a very important thing Tiruin said on day 1 that everyone has forgotten:

But for posterity's sake, I'm definitely sure that there are 2 other third-party alignments.

underline mine
Toaster: ok, here's the problem regarding the NQT thing. you called it scummy well after your vote had changed from pressure to lynch. The read you got was "this stuck in his mind". and keep in mind that what he asked you, the trigger for it, was pointing out that you were acting hypocritically. He had perfectly reasonable grounds to do so, and yet you included this action in your case on him as scum, and listed it as a major, and in fact the main reason you wanted him lynched.

why would you do that?

Toaster: now then, for the lie bit. that part is confusing, because it's from Tiruin talking about Toaster talking about Tiruin talking about Toaster talking about NQT.
however, it really was a baldfaced lie, and pretty incredibly scummy.

I'm going to have to de-nest quotes to make this clear for you, so please keep in mind that these quotes i'm about to post used to quote each other. there is ZERO chance of them referencing anything but each other. I'll keep the links as intact as I can, so you should be able to reference them to find the quote pyramid in full if you want to backcheck my work.

now then, first, NQT said this:

Toaster
I explicitly said I wasn't 3rd party, you even quoted where I said it. I'm going to give you one last chance as it's still possible that you're being as dense as your namesake. Unless you have a crumb tray where your rational faculties ought be you'll know exactly what I was saying when I told you to think back to your previous witches games and reflect on what I was doing early on this game. I'm calling you out as confirmed scum if you don't see what I'm saying. You're allowed to disbelieve me but you should at least stop misrepresenting what I'm telling you.

your reply to that was this:

Okay, I'll grant you this one.  You said "I'm not a witch" within the context of your previous claim of not being third party, when I read it separately.  Consider my complaint on that post dropped.  The rest of the case stands, though.  I really have no idea what you're trying to say with regards to previous games, though.

next, Tiruin poked you on it with this:

Lastly, what your remark to NQT is, is my point on you.

Okay, I'll grant you this one.  You said "I'm not a witch" within the context of your previous claim of not being third party, when I read it separately.  Consider my complaint on that post dropped.  [...]

A very nice startup until you found something actually suspicious about him. The bolded portion contradicts whatever you posted towards me, however, as only now after I shown you the error, you backtrack.

Coward.

you then reply with this:

This is a lie.  NQT clarified this for me, not you.

and you quote this when you make your reply:

Toaster
I explicitly said I wasn't 3rd party, you even quoted where I said it. I'm going to give you one last chance as it's still possible that you're being as dense as your namesake. Unless you have a crumb tray where your rational faculties ought be you'll know exactly what I was saying when I told you to think back to your previous witches games and reflect on what I was doing early on this game. I'm calling you out as confirmed scum if you don't see what I'm saying. You're allowed to disbelieve me but you should at least stop misrepresenting what I'm telling you.

The timestamp on your quote of NQT, the quote that you use to call Tiruin a liar, is this:

The timestamp on Tiruin's post, the one that you're replying too, is this:

The issue should be clear now. You're calling her a liar by quoting a post from AFTER her own. and using that post as an explanation for behavior from BEFORE HER POST WAS POSTED.

Scumbag.