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Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lidku on September 29, 2022, 06:29:32 pm

Title: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on September 29, 2022, 06:29:32 pm
I wanted to make a thread that focuses specifically on the UK, especially with the ongoing crisis on whatever its new Prime Minister Liz Truss is doing with the economy right now.

The Armchair Economics Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175416.0) in particular seems to not like to discuss politics (from what I saw), so making a dedicated thread that allows for economic AND political discussion for this UK-specific developing event would be optimal, in my opinion. Hopefully this thread concept doesn't flop.

EDIT: minor typos
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on September 29, 2022, 06:36:57 pm
Thanks for making the thread!
I feel like the torch has been passed.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on September 29, 2022, 06:37:19 pm
Conservatives, min. They know how to make it work for everyone*.

*… who makes upwards of seven figures a year.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on September 29, 2022, 07:22:32 pm
Yeah, the SS Brexit seems to have pulled in to port. The whole project was fucking stupid in the first place, but now we're seeing the end result of what happens when you make a stupid decision and let it be run by complete inbred populists. The smartest guy (ie Cameron, though I hate to say it) in the Conservative party left. May picked up the torch only to be stabbed in the back by a combination of hard brexiters, remainers, and people who just didn't like her THEN she stabbed herself in the back by calling an early GE, then Johnson came in and, knowing he wasn't that good, torched the Conservative party so anyone who could do a better job than him was no longer there. Once the UK got fed up of the Funny Man (Seriously, we elected him because he was a "character". How about people who know what they're fucking doing?) and realised that shoving a clown into a position of power is a bad idea, he got the boot. Then came Truss, who promised everyone in the party loads of money, everyone said "That's unworkable and she'll cause economic ruin" and the membership went "No it won't". She got in and, what do you know, economic ruin.

Where's Chaos With Ed Miliband when you need it?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on September 29, 2022, 07:38:50 pm
If that Rishi Sunak was chosen by the Tories, instead of this Liz Truss woman, would this sudden economic blowout be completely avoided?

Also, does anyone else think that Sunak man was not chosen because of his Indian descent? I could be totally wrong, as I only have a surface knowledge of UK politics at the moment... but I just have a gut feeling that could be the case of why he was not chosen..
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on September 29, 2022, 07:44:52 pm
Sunak wasn't exactly great, but he was a darnsight better than Truss. His ideas actually had a degree of forethought, Truss's forethought was "I think tax cuts are good, QED they are"

I've heard other people say that being non-white might have influenced it, but if I'm honest I suspect the biggest issue he had was he was actually somewhat grounded in reality. Rather than Truss's "I'll give you tax cuts and it'll work" his was "I'll do what I can", and the Tory membership are apparently mind-numbingly stupid because they went with Truss's blatant lies despite everyone telling them it was stupid (Oh hey, that sounds like something that happened 6 years ago...)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on September 29, 2022, 07:53:05 pm
Truss was playing to the peanut gallery, Sunak appeared to want to actually fix the problem at hand.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on September 29, 2022, 07:58:25 pm
...yeah, it was a good thing that this discussion moved out of the Economic Armchair thread.  :P
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on September 29, 2022, 08:15:20 pm
I am, it should be noted, incredibly pissed off at the situation. I'd be less so if Truss wasn't so goddamn pigheaded and went "You know what guys, you're right, I fucked up"

Instead my future gets tossed away by an undemocratic mandate chosen by absolute braindead morons.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on September 29, 2022, 08:16:33 pm
The case for independence!

I jest. Mostly. Maybe. A little.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on September 29, 2022, 08:21:57 pm
Will the other parties in the UK call for a special election of somesort to remove her from power? It seems her policies right out the gate, are doing a lot of blisters to the UK right now.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on September 29, 2022, 08:23:09 pm
She can only be removed by a vote of no confidence, either in parliament, or by her own party, neither of which are likely to succeed.

I can’t remember when the next election is, I think 2024?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on September 29, 2022, 09:00:26 pm
Will the other parties in the UK call for a special election of somesort to remove her from power? It seems her policies right out the gate, are doing a lot of blisters to the UK right now.
They can. It won't do anything though, only Truss can call a GE and all parliament can do is boot her out and elect another PM. Granted, she might get booted given the polling.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on September 29, 2022, 09:08:17 pm
(Yet another reason to dismiss the idea of Elected Head Of State idea. Whether directly/college-'elected' or appointed by the PM, depending upon which country you want to emulate, I think it shows that the ultimate Sortition method of 'accident of birth' (with fallback options) turned out better than than many of those put into power by electorate/selectorate/general political repositioning.)


I think there are already rumblings within the Tory party about (despite convention/1922 rules) deposing her, but hard to tell how much of that is "the srong person won" before considerations about what she and the quasi-chancellor just did (or did not!) do. There are also Labour calls to recall parliament to 'deal with things' (it's being Party Conference season, Labour having had theirs, Conservatives probably still trying to work out who has sent back RSVPs in a negative manner, not sure when and where LibDems/ScotNats/Plaid/others will (or have had) their get-togethers. I suspect that there could be enough Tory rebel-rebels to tip the balance, right now, if there was a Commons vote of no-confidence and nobody much more than the DUP[1] balked at it for ideological reasons. This doesn't spark an Election, though ((ninjaed!)), probably just roll up a new grudge-match amongst a new set of Tory leadership challengers, assuming party-defections and/or semi-voluntary by-elections don't tip the balance of power to a different party.


My take on the financial issue is that it was a "go fast and break things" philosophy, being applied to put a stamp on the new top-table/front-bench pairing's ascendance and rapidly reshape the financial landscape. Perhaps the upper level tax breaks were supposed to help gain sympathies from those with direct (as opposed to trickled-down-upon) interest in the movement of money. It might even be going 'to plan', but only if the plan is a lot more radical than I'd believe could be intended. Like to raise exports, of anything we still can actually export, at the expense of basically everything else.

It's not looking brilliant, though, in either execution or justification. Moody's looked like it was going to downrate the nation by a notch or two, last time I heard, which certainly won't help.


[1] I think they're still supporting the Tories, not yet been significantly put off by something that offends them. Like any vestige of human decency.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on September 29, 2022, 09:11:45 pm
An MP's warned that the triple-lock might be up for axing.

Which would bring the government into "Piss literally everyone off" territory. Lower, middle and upper classes all hacked off, then start chopping your base at the knees too.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Egan_BW on September 29, 2022, 09:39:24 pm
(Yet another reason to dismiss the idea of Elected Head Of State idea. Whether directly/college-'elected' or appointed by the PM, depending upon which country you want to emulate, I think it shows that the ultimate Sortition method of 'accident of birth' (with fallback options) turned out better than than many of those put into power by electorate/selectorate/general political repositioning.)

This is a UK thread so I guess monarchism is technically allowed but know that I'm making the eyes narrowing face at this. :p

also PTW
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on September 29, 2022, 09:57:48 pm
(Yet another reason to dismiss the idea of Elected Head Of State idea. Whether directly/college-'elected' or appointed by the PM, depending upon which country you want to emulate, I think it shows that the ultimate Sortition method of 'accident of birth' (with fallback options) turned out better than than many of those put into power by electorate/selectorate/general political repositioning.)

This is a UK thread so I guess monarchism is technically allowed but know that I'm making the eyes narrowing face at this. :p

also PTW

The sole and best argument in favor of an elected leader over a despotic/monarch is that leadership can change without one or more people dying.

Also: No King Nonce as arbitrator of England's fate.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Egan_BW on September 29, 2022, 09:59:17 pm
So you're saying that if we had a totally democratic system except when the head of state gets voted out they also get executed would be exactly as bad a system as monarchy?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on September 29, 2022, 10:00:14 pm
So you're saying that if we had a totally democratic system except when the head of state gets voted out they also get executed would be exactly as bad a system as monarchy?
... actually, I feel like that would be a major improvement (I'm an American)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Egan_BW on September 29, 2022, 10:02:22 pm
So you're saying that if we had a totally democratic system except when the head of state gets voted out they also get executed would be exactly as bad a system as monarchy?
... actually, I feel like that would be a major improvement (I'm an American)
I dunno, giving the incumbent an even stronger incentive to win might make things worse. Like imagine if someone had to gerrymander like their life literally depends on it.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on September 29, 2022, 10:06:25 pm
So you're saying that if we had a totally democratic system except when the head of state gets voted out they also get executed would be exactly as bad a system as monarchy?
... actually, I feel like that would be a major improvement (I'm an American)
I dunno, giving the incumbent an even stronger incentive to win might make things worse. Like imagine if someone had to gerrymander like their life literally depends on it.
Not everyone. Just the Head of State.
The 22nd Amendment is still in force.
President-for-life takes on it's best meaning.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on September 29, 2022, 10:08:18 pm
Counterpoint: If the head of state is a figurehead, and so literally an automated process in human form, why not replace them with an actual automated process and remove the human element entirely?

But I feel like it's getting off topic xD Not that much has changed beyond "yup, shit be fucked".

Liz Truss did some interviews with local radio stations, presumably expecting easy questions and not realising that local stations don't have to care about you revoking their access to future interviews. So she got asked actually hard questions, stumbled through them, and the markets immediately dropped in response to her refusing to achnowledge anything was wrong.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Egan_BW on September 29, 2022, 10:14:27 pm
Counterpoint: If the head of state is a figurehead, and so literally an automated process in human form, why not replace them with an actual automated process and remove the human element entirely?

Hatsune Miku 2024

ok I'm done
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on September 30, 2022, 01:21:00 am
Does the UK government provide data showing the sum of tax income received by the government, by tax bracket, by corporate or individual, and by year? I mean it like this, "can common citizens see some aggregate details in the format of,  sum_of_taxes_collected for [year, tax_rate, provider(corporate/individual/organization)]?"

It should be clear to the public where the tax money is coming from, and where it is not coming from. I was just listening to a 2015 John Cleese interview and he says that the top income tax rate in the UK was 83% at one time... The wiki shows that was in 1974. Now the UK's top rate is 40%. It seems the wealthy will have enough surplus wealth to create their own private authoritarian regimes now.

And, with regard to the USA's 22nd amendment, it occurred because the wealthy wanted discord within government to avoid another FDR:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know the UK's relative history of beneficial reforms that were degraded over time by capitalist-authoritarians... but the Truss cutting taxes for the rich indicates she is not the one that will fix the system and that the UK has farther to go before it hits bottom. The sooner the commoners know who is and is not paying taxes, the sooner they will start working together against their common enemy.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on September 30, 2022, 04:57:40 am
With how badly the pound is apparently crashing against the dollar, I don't really know the extent of the UK rich will be "rich" any longer. That is unless, there is a massive drive from that class, to switch the pound for the dollar en masse. Wouldn't such a theoretical phenomenon crash the pound into deeper devaluation?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on September 30, 2022, 06:03:17 am
If you're anywhere rich enough, a falling pound is a bonus you can take advantage of (https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/2022/09/26/short-the-pound-uk-government-liz-truss-kwarteng-budget-hedge-funds-george-soros/amp/). (That's a via-Google link, because going straight to the source like I would like hits the usual terrible cookie/subscription/notification pop-over mess and I'd love to give more click-credit to the source, but it's not helping matters.)

There was something yesterday (on the thankfully mostly popover-free BBC website, but buried deep in the flurry of more recent articles, it seems) about a close current associate of Liz Truss who has probably made money for his hedgefund over the last few days, and certainly did very well on the immediate post Brexit Referendum turmoil.  Even I had a small number of employee-shares in a company I was in, that I happened to get cashed out shortly after. Slightly better return, above 'normal' benefits of stock-options, but not exactly high volume or insta-trading at the optimum moment (the sale was initiated with no thoughts to catching any waves) and certainly didn't comparatively enrich me significantly at such low volume. But if you're willing to take a stance with significant funds behind you... then you're laughing all the way to whichever bank you want to go to (offshore, included).


(PS, I'm not a monarchist, I just find no 'republican' idea to be particularly attractive. Whether it's Head-of-State and Head-of-Government rolled into one (via whatever electoral system puts them there), as a 'consolation prize' position by the government for a popular figure semi-retired from active popular politics to act as supposed balance/arbiter to the PM/etc, the individual who has truly become "the power on the throne" by political manouvering (no longer a democracy)nor of course the one whose titles prior to this point 'general'ly involve a military rank of some kind and whose primary 'electorate' also have military positions. Just like I'm against an elected second house (I'd prefer a kind of sortition/long-term jury method, at least in part, mixed with at least the current level of somewhat meritocratic appointments if not a better one with less scope for infilling with political cronies) because sheer populism (at best) or self-serving manipulation of that populism (getting on towards being the worst of the situation in 'democratic' scenarios) is bad enough in almost all elected chambers, as we can see. But that was never my major or even intentionally leading point. And neither is this.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: McTraveller on September 30, 2022, 06:43:34 am
Just how much power does the PM have anyway?  Can they really unilaterally create legislation like that, or is this just Truss getting the blame, when it's really a larger group?  I'm not that familiar with how parliamentary governments work.

In the US, even the president doesn't really have that much power (all the griping about executive orders notwithstanding).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on September 30, 2022, 08:58:31 am
They can't (usually!) enact whole new laws, or arbitrarily remove old ones, but they and their ministers (especially in the Treasury?) and even various subordinates may have the ability to enact secondary legislation (https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/secondary-legislation/) within previously defined scopes of power. If, to avoid problems responding to other issues, power is given to raise or lower degrees of effect of a given law (which drugs are on which list of relative legality/illegality, say) then there may be some discussion about how radical the change is, but if it's adjudged within the scope of the leeway already provided in the Primary Legislation then it can probably be done, at least pending an amendment/addition to the Primary to cover increasingly creeping edge-cases with more exacting coverage/allowance (as much to set in stone what they don't think they want just as trivially reversed, by 'tye next lot', if they think they can cajole enough support to do so).

And even saying "we intend to..." do something-or-other can make people jittery/elated ahead of any hoop-jumping they actually need to go through to implement those intentions. Probably the same as even a more tightly constrained HoG, but with the general uncertainty about how much they may end up being actually constrained/second-guessed by parliament, e.g. being balked by the Law Lords or considerations raised by the HoL in general.


Basically, you'll find things like Income Tax written on bits of vellum, rolled up somewhere in the stacks of the Commons Library (I think), as with almost every other bit of legislation (up until 2017, I think, if they actually revoked the need for true vellum), but adjustments to the rates involved won't typically be scratched in on (or over) any such scrolls already ingrossed there.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on September 30, 2022, 11:25:38 am
Proposing unpopular tax changes that are disproportionate in their effects on the wealthy compared to the poor, approval ratings plummitting, and Labour soaring ahead in the polls, all whilst pigheadedly refusing to change course...

You know, when Liz Truss talked about wanting to emulate Thatcher, I didn't think she meant the *end* of Thatcher's time in office.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 02, 2022, 06:31:12 pm
Truss has reportedly forbidden King Charles from speaking on environmental matters. Which might be an overstep of the bounds of the convention that the monarch isn't supposed to publicly voice opinions.

For reference, Charles has been an advocate of environmental conservation and pro-Green policy since the 70s. Truss denies that Anthropogenic Climate Change exists.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 02, 2022, 06:36:30 pm
Truss has reportedly forbidden King Charles from speaking on environmental matters. Which might be an overstep of the bounds of the convention that the monarch isn't supposed to publicly voice opinions.

For reference, Charles has been an advocate of environmental conservation and pro-Green policy since the 70s. Truss denies that Anthropogenic Climate Change exists.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 02, 2022, 06:37:35 pm
She also threw her chancellor under the bus by claiming he made the decision on cutting the 45p rate, even though she was saying she’s cut taxes for the rich during her leadership campaign.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 02, 2022, 07:26:38 pm
Tory conference was met with boos from Brum. Hardly a surprise, this has to be one of the most unpopular governments in a long, long time.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 02, 2022, 07:28:57 pm
Rich people probably love this government...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 02, 2022, 07:30:52 pm
Unfortunately for the Tories, rich people are a minority of a minority. It's impossible to win an election off the back of just them, and while there may be a few moguls with control over most of the UK's news media, we've still got enough (And a state broadcaster that, while somewhat compromised, still provides decent reporting) that no matter what these moronic ideas will get called out.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 02, 2022, 07:31:05 pm
Truss has reportedly forbidden King Charles from speaking on environmental matters.

lol
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 02, 2022, 07:33:27 pm
In related news, King Charles has forbidden Prime Minister Truss from speaking on child welfare matters....joke

EDIT: I now understand why Europeans love posting in AmeriPol. It's fun when it's not your own country!
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 02, 2022, 08:45:42 pm
I’m a Brit that lives in America so I get to post in Ameripol to complain about that, and I’m here to complain  about this.

I can’t vote in either country it’s wonderful.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 03, 2022, 04:38:23 am
I'm just going to hide underground and drown my sorrows in oats porridge. On the bright side the marathon was cool, and interest rates going up was a long time coming - the god awful age of unlimited quantitative easing had to end, I was sick of the already ludicrously wealthy being allowed to borrow unlimited cheap money to ultimately do nothing productive and pass on the cost of their investments onto the economy via inflation
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 03, 2022, 08:50:59 pm
I'm just going to hide underground and drown my sorrows in oats porridge. On the bright side the marathon was cool, and interest rates going up was a long time coming - the god awful age of unlimited quantitative easing had to end, I was sick of the already ludicrously wealthy being allowed to borrow unlimited cheap money to ultimately do nothing productive and pass on the cost of their investments onto the economy via inflation
...I feel like this is an accurate way to describe the American economy as well.

But even now, the housing mortgage rates are 6% and inflation is 8%. Mortgages are STILL FREE, but not FREE ENOUGH.
.... although, you do need income to cover the payments, so it still benefits the Rich over the Poor
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 04, 2022, 07:43:56 am
No matter whether the economy is doing well or doing poorly, it always benefits the rich over the poor :<
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 04, 2022, 11:36:21 pm
Power begets power, whoda thunk it?

And as put in Red Mars:

Money is power, power makes law, and law makes government.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on October 05, 2022, 04:24:19 am
I don't want a monarchy, but I have very little against the Swedish royal house, so I'm not very firey to get rid of it, particularly with the current crown princess looking like such a decent fellow.

I'm also not too impressed by American republicanism, and wouldn't want our system based on that. I'd look to Finland since they're so close to us but I know very little about that part of their system.

But most of all, the thing I feel the most passionate about and the reason I could never agree with our Swedish republicans. I don't want a fucking "president". I loathe the way they are scrubbing away our language, traditions, and cultural identity from our system of governance. I want to go back to our ancient traditions of electing our kings (But not for life of course), our democratic roots that was stolen from us. Acceptable alternatives would be jarl or drott. If possibly a Swedish word for stewarding, but it'd have to be Swedish.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 05, 2022, 06:10:14 am
I'm an ardent monarchist for larping reasons

Lords sound cooler than members of the upper law court, Knighthoods are better when they actually Knights and not just politician stickers and ribbons, and it's not possible for a Prime Minister to gain autocratic airs and respect the same way a President is able to. Someone made a big argument that all the Presidential Soviet successors became dictatorships, the mixed ones had troubles and all the parliamentary ones like the baltic countries became successful democracies, because it was impossible for an El-Presidente to arise and be both head of government and head of state at the same time.

That's fair and all but I just like the larp. It also means when people start trying to take themselves too seriously you can laugh at them because they are larping too. It's also got that nice continuity of history that I think you shouldn't abandon unless you absolutely must; because once abandoned, you cannot bring it back to life
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 05, 2022, 06:53:15 am
Well, apart from one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interregnum_(England)) particular (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Restoration) statement, I'm surprised to find broad agreement with LW on this issue...

Anyway, given the flurry of news outlets using (often incorrectly) the "No U-Turns" signage, let me instead...
Spoiler: ...post this... (click to show/hide)
...as a topical on-topic comment.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 05, 2022, 07:09:20 am
Well, apart from one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interregnum_(England)) particular (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Restoration) statement, I'm surprised to find broad agreement with LW on this issue...
it was just a bit of banter, nothing to lose your head over
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 05, 2022, 02:43:04 pm
Truss wants to give the UK government the ability to ignore Human Rights rulings. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-truss-human-rights-tory-conference-b2195990.html?utm_source=reddit.com)

Clearly a wonderful idea, what does it matter if government policy needs to be a human rights violation?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 05, 2022, 02:54:46 pm
For a while now, I have suspected the humans have been a minority in the various Cabinets, so it seems perfectly logical that this does not matter much to them.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on October 05, 2022, 03:56:16 pm
Well, the UK is a part of the ECHR but most or none of the Commonwealth members are not.

Given that "Rwanda" and "human rights violation" are often part of the same news blurb, and that Rwanda joined the Commonwealth as a country that had not been a part of the "UK colonial empire", it seems that this could be seem as a reforming of the "UK colonial empire", but instead of British troops suppressing the locals, the government of the member state would do it. This is where you could see the UK military complex selling population-suppression tools to Commonwealth governments so they can control their own population through authoritarian means.

If the UK is ejecting Rwandan immigrants that the UK's courts say are illegal and that Rwanda would accept back ("yes, we would accept this traitor criminal back, we need to cause them pain"), would the ECHR have jurisdiction over UK in the matter? Because this gets into, "what laws did the UK subject itself to when they signed onto the ECHR?" and "Is the UK going to be able to shift the human rights blame onto the other country which the UK just happens to be working with?"

EDIT: This has similar qualities to the stance between the USA and the ICC, where the appearance is that the USA won't join the ICC because they would be judged in court for things they've done.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Doomblade187 on October 05, 2022, 04:59:30 pm
Well, apart from one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interregnum_(England)) particular (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Restoration) statement, I'm surprised to find broad agreement with LW on this issue...
it was just a bit of banter, nothing to lose your head over
It's always just a bit of banter until it isn't.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 05, 2022, 05:17:14 pm
It's always just a bit of banter until it isn't.
if your bants wreck the concept of Christmas itself you deserve to be the archbishop of banterbury
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 05, 2022, 05:55:32 pm
REEE LABOUR SHOULD ALLOW TRANSPHOBES TO SPEW TRANSPHOBIA OTHERWISE THEY'RE BIGOTS! (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/02/if-labour-is-truly-the-party-of-equality-it-wouldnt-shut-down-the-trans-debate)

Brought to you by a transphobic newspaper, and the same woman who tried to tie the Roe Vs Wade shit to trans groups.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: nenjin on October 05, 2022, 06:23:22 pm
It seemed more balanced than that to me.

Quote
What should be a calm conversation about how to balance a conflict of rights has been turned into a culture war

Your reaction seems to support their position that the conversation becomes immediately toxic regardless of what anyone actually says or whatever nuance there is. Now, I didn't go out and research this lady before I reacted, I'm just reacting to the article. Maybe she got caught on hot mic, or maintains a manifesto somewhere. I'm only considering what they wrote and how it was written.

How DO you propose to talk about women who don't want to be housed with transgender sex offenders, or how to structure laws that balance a child's safety and well being against their or their parent's desire to issue them hormone blockers during puberty? As a contrasting example on parental rights vs. state interests, vegans who only feed their child a specific set of vegetables to the point the child needs to be hospitalized for severe nutrition deficiency and whose mental and physical development may have been stifled and thrown off for the rest of their lives.

You have to balance parental rights with the child's rights, even if children don't know to exercise them. That's why the government has an interest in it. To balance things effectively and justly, you have to build legislation and look at existing laws. To do that, you have to be able to have a conversation at all. If the only people you're willing to include in the conversation are the ones who will always 100% agree with you, then it's a self-serving, dishonest conversation. There are lines to this as well, but that means you have to be willing to consider nuance.

When you make no distinction between the right and their brand of transphobia and everyone else, there cannot be conversation at all, because there is no nuance between viewpoints. Which is the exact same trap the Right fell into a long time ago.

Stuff like this is why anyone with a nuanced opinion on the transgender/identity debates just walks away without getting involved. You ask questions even, you get called transphobic. Trans folk want trans rights yesterday, so they largely are opposed to restrictions, delays or the nuance of reframing how we think about identity and gender in a legal sense. That's why there's push back and other people saying "We need to have a real talk about this, and just about everyone has a vested interest in the outcome." Calling that position transphobic is, to me, just as absurd as what the right throws out to shut down conversation.

And just so I make my position abundantly clear.....most of our laws around people's behavior is on the honor system. There are consequences if you do otherwise. I think that's an acceptable standard to apply to transpeople. If people are worried about what a transgender person is going to do in a bathroom, prison, etc....whatever they were going to do is already handled by our existing laws. Anything much more than that is discrimination.

Sports I think is a much tougher subject and one I'm not even going to try and get into now.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 05, 2022, 07:50:22 pm
I dunno, call me extreme but I'm not particularly fond of "gender-critical" people who are, in fact, operating on the basis that I'm not transgender but rather psychotic at best, a misogynistic women's space invading sex offender at worst.

I'm fine with a debate about biologically-female (Which I'm using to differentiate between gender and sex, rather than "Men and females" type stuff) only spaces, sports, and so on. That's something that needs sorting, even if it's just to present facts. The issue is I'm not fine with having it with the type of people who categorically deny my existence.

A bit like asking refugees to have an open debate on refugee rights with the English Defence League.

EDIT: Or, to put it simply, the issue isn't the "What" but the "Who"
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 06, 2022, 05:27:59 am
Your reaction seems to support their position that the conversation becomes immediately toxic regardless of what anyone actually says or whatever nuance there is. Now, I didn't go out and research this lady before I reacted, I'm just reacting to the article. Maybe she got caught on hot mic, or maintains a manifesto somewhere. I'm only considering what they wrote and how it was written.
Toxicity by design (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/23/unprecedented-leak-exposes-inner-workings-of-uk-labour-party) to be selectively utilised when convenient (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/29/documents-reveal-discrimination-and-racism-in-uk-labour-party) like a war banner so supporters of socialism get cor-binned but supporters of corporatism get elevated into leadership
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Doomblade187 on October 06, 2022, 01:38:18 pm
*Really* not the thread for it, but RE: transgender athletes. There is no major evidence that trans athletes have an advantage over cisgender athletes in the same gender.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
https://sites.psu.edu/siowfa15/2015/08/31/do-transgender-athletes-have-a-competitive-advantage/

What trans exclusionary measures *do* result in is cisgender people being banned from the sport they love.
https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

(World Athletics' testosterone rules only apply to events between 400 meters and one mile., so she ended up running the 200m.)

Quote
The times spurred World Athletics to conduct "medical assessments" on the two at their current training camp in Italy, the Namibian Olympic committee said. The results indicated that both have high natural testosterone levels, the committee said.

"It is important to understand that both our athletes were not aware of this condition," it said.

The situation is reminiscent of the controversial sex verification tests conducted on a teenage Semenya at the 2009 world championships.

World Athletics' latest testosterone regulations have been fiercely debated since they were introduced in 2018.

I find that typically when someone has questions regarding the impact of trans rights on women (and it is never the impact of trans rights on men) it's very easy to tell whether they're actually open to listening or not.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 06, 2022, 04:46:14 pm
It's a hot topic in Scotland right now. Protests against trans-friendly laws[1], being rather vocal with particularly absolutist arguments that I would not say are totally 'wrong', but certainly are deaf to the issues trying to be addressed.

[1] Famously including a certain over-rated author.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 06, 2022, 05:10:17 pm
Interestingly (and depressingly) trans acceptance has fallen in the UK compared to a few years back. Presumably because we've become the current hot topic culture war issue, and the media's been more than happy to stoke that flame.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 07, 2022, 04:53:20 am
I don't actually know, in person, many anti-trans people who have had problems with being 'de-accepted'[1] ((<=edit: "de-accepting" makes more sense here, if anythin... I think I munged sentences about both sides together. But neither anti-transers going notably more anti- nor transers suffering more anti- backlash must have been my intended gists, respectively. Does this help? No, probably not.)) Though I've known people who are 'anti-' in various illiberal ways that likely makes them perrenial objectors to the vague idea of trans-ness amongst all the other kinds of 'not my kind of person' bigotry (possibly, in some cases, actually self-hate from peer pressures). Perhaps I'm just not that observant, though, to the subtlety of drifting opinions.

I do find it ironic that there are vocal members of minorities(/traditionally oppressed) who have strong opinions against even smaller slices of minorities (often with similar problems of acceptance by the 'majority' to themself) beyond what I'd see as rational. Whether that's the first two of the original LGB who dislike the third, or 'white' LGBTs who are outright racist to non-white LFBTs, or the uncompromisingly trans-exclusionary subset of women.


I think it's more the 24-hour-news and/or echo-chamber effect that it is more obvious or (seemingly) promoted, though. Possibly it's just more 'acceptable' to admit (even on an anonymous survey) that you have such a low-volume[2] personal discrimination, and an opinion you probably didn't even learn to have (or was just indistinguishable from background homophobia) in days gone by, but now you've got evangelistic fearmongering highlighting the rare cases when trans(-identifying) individuals are of the predatative variety rather than being physically and emotionally more vulnerable even than the typical woman might be.


Disclaimer: This is my gut feeling, possibly as uninformed as anyone else not actually in the shoes[3] of any of those involved. With no reference to any such cross-era survey results, at all. In the first part, I'm not trying to 'cis-splain' anybody's own experience (nor more tradaitionally man-splain), and I'm just giving my impression from my own singular and statistically insignificant viewpoint. I'll have to accept full ownership of any hole I've just dug myself into, therefore.




[1] Not openly, anyway. Of the handful of actual trans individuals I can speak of (and, obviously, for one reason or another have known to be so), I haven't been there to see hostility at first-hand. What problems they encountered in everyday life I can only imagine. And one of those individuals was for some time a member of a sports club I'm in but may have left due to adverse comments by some other member that were never made in my presence.

[2] With a top-end estimate being that it involves slightly less than 0.5% of the population. I mean, it's practically a victimless bigotry, at a level below that of run-of-the-mill antisemitism and maybe slightly above a distrust of 'gypsies', amirite?

[3] It would be crass to substitute "shoes" with some terminalogically feminine version of the attire, but it did of course momentarily occur to me. Before I decided not to. Before then deciding to explain here that I decided not to, as full disclosure. Why I additionally decided to explain all further meta-explanations, I'm afraid I cannot explain.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 07, 2022, 07:19:04 am
Hm, you know, is there an LGBT thread somewhere? There ought to be considering it's a fairly big topic (Although for different reasons now compared to the 00s when it was about the LGB side of things)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 08, 2022, 05:15:23 am
Interestingly (and depressingly) trans acceptance has fallen in the UK compared to a few years back. Presumably because we've become the current hot topic culture war issue, and the media's been more than happy to stoke that flame.

Or possibly because one of the most culturally-significant authors in the world has led a decade-long campaign backed by multiple national newspapers against every aspect of trans identity?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 08, 2022, 07:31:40 am
My perspective of what topics dominate discussion in my area is;

1. Economic crisis & energy prices. No way around it. I speak to rich people and they are talking about hunkering down and moving back to their home countries. Upper-middle class are freaking the fuck out because they didn't bother to pay off their actuals on their mortgages, supposing that the time of unexampled cheap money would last forever. Middle class the same, but worse, with one exception to an architect who thought everything was fine because we weren't getting bombed. Young middle class talk about just opting out of society because there's no point working five days a weak only for work to eat up their wages in expenses. I spoke to working class albanian chaps and they were working two jobs and pooling all of their money together to buy one communal house because rents had risen £350. One of my patients told me that his drug dealer was far more afraid of gas prices than getting arrested or stabbed. People on the lower to no-income scale are also getting much more desperate and emotional, because things are getting more desperate and it's straining all of their relationships. E.g. we had one of our nurses pay patients their expenses out of pocket because the patients were going to withdraw from the clinical trial unless they could get their expenses fee straight away. Of all the restaurant owners I spoke to, they say things are going to be really rough, because tourism season is over but office workers aren't coming back because they work from home half the week and the days they are in office, they're saving every £££ and not eating at a cafe. One restaurant is doing really well because it has a good niche of spicy food that everyone is coming miles around for, so it's not all bad news, but one italian cafe owner she was in the verge of tears telling me she was going to close the shop early because there was no point - 13:00 on a Friday and not a single soul besides myself had shown up.

2. Lots more people are breaking down; physically and mentally. The enduring effects of covid and long-covid have been studied and just quietly ignored, and the pressures of the Tory mismanagement are not helping. Been seeing more people having to get ambulance'd over covid again, and people, patients and colleagues I speak to all report the same feelings of futility, burn out and crushing depression, that feeling of "everything I do doesn't matter because it all ends the same place."

3. No one is pleased by the way politics has gone, and are basically all stuck with the same issue that neither labour nor conservatives have their trust. Those who voted for conservatives for conservatism ended up with more neoliberalism and so can't be asked to vote tory again. Yet they can't be asked to vote labour because when they voted for corbyn, the labour party said that labour voters really want more neoliberalism and canned him. It's a repeat of pre-brexit where no matter who you voted for, all parties were pro-EU neoliberalism. Now it's just all roads lead to anti-EU neoliberalism. I always tell these people if you're politically active, the best thing you can do is get involved with your local party and help get an MP from your area selected and keep them protected from the big big cheese at top who say only an Oxbridge neoliberal is allowed to have an opinion. Until you sort out who you are allowed to vote for then voting only gets you so far; democratic involvement by necessity cannot be confined to the act of voting, otherwise it is not a democracy

4. Russia's invasion of Ukraine, to a lesser extent. Everyone I spoke to supports Ukraine and the UK's continued military support of Ukraine, EXCEPT for the wealthy Polish expats I spoke to, who supported the opposite of whatever the Polish government supported, and annoy me to no end. You can't "both sides" the argument when one side is murdering civilians and broke its own treaty obligations.

5. Football! Lots of people have been talking about football and going about europe, to watch football over there. I have no idea as I don't football but I traveled around Europe with some northerners who went there to see the football, I go home and my cafe man is gone because he's gone to see more football, football football, everyone still loves football.

6. I haven't heard anything about trans rights or wrongs but as it happens - my local cafe man had some J.K. Rowling fans confirm that J.K. Rowling had in fact gone to his cafe, ordered an egg and tomato sandwich, and he had no idea it was her as she was being incognito
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 08, 2022, 09:59:00 pm
I think Truss is turning paranoid. She's rapidly being surrounded by members of her "Anti-growth coalition". She's now adding environmental charities to the list.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on October 09, 2022, 11:02:25 am
Could it be she's done already?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 09, 2022, 12:09:47 pm
She was done the moment the mini budget came out.

It's just a matter of when now, and if she's spiteful enough to dissolve parliament if they try.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 09, 2022, 05:32:32 pm
She was done the moment the mini budget came out.

It's just a matter of when now, and if she's spiteful enough to dissolve parliament if they try.
Why wouldn't she?

She certainly seems spiteful enough.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 09, 2022, 05:44:38 pm
With any luck she will, I shudder to imagine whatever ghoulish mannequin clad in human skin the Tories pick as leader after her if she doesn't.

Bring on a GE and the first non-Tory government in 12 damn years. Can't imagine they'll have an easy time, but they rarely do.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 10, 2022, 05:33:02 am
I think Truss is turning paranoid. She's rapidly being surrounded by members of her "Anti-growth coalition". She's now adding environmental charities to the list.
She's beyond paranoid, she's huffing military grade copium. I just miss Jezza (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Uhqyfk1pY), if he was still labour head the conservatives would've been electorally annihilated by now. Stuff they canned him for, like nationalising the energy companies or making the financial services industry serve the real economy instead of the other way around, seems pretty funny now
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 10, 2022, 10:44:47 am
Actually, I think the opposite. Jezza's foreign policy was, frankly, awful, and he had no idea how to work the crowd when it came to that sort of thing. It was ignorable because fuck all was going on back then, but with the Ukrainian invasion I could very easily have seen him cocking up responses to questions like "Are you going to provide supplies to Ukraine?"
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 10, 2022, 01:03:18 pm
Actually, I think the opposite. Jezza's foreign policy was, frankly, awful, and he had no idea how to work the crowd when it came to that sort of thing. It was ignorable because fuck all was going on back then, but with the Ukrainian invasion I could very easily have seen him cocking up responses to questions like "Are you going to provide supplies to Ukraine?"
That and he wanted to give the Falklands away without actually talking to the Falklanders themselves but nobody's perfect ;[
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 10, 2022, 06:38:08 pm
I know my arch-right-wing childhood friend was raving about Corbyn back slightly before he even got his Momentum in gear. In hindsight, I can see he was attracted by the political disruption (similarly the whole "I agree with Nick", before that, despite definitely not being liberal, let alone Liberal - I don't think he was that much into Blair, though perhaps that's surprising for other reasons). It was the nascent radical populism that seemed most attractive.

While, for me, I distrust populism with a vengeance. I can be excited enough about opportunities to overturn the current messy status-quo situation that I disliked, which at one point Jeremy was (and Nick could have been, and Tony famously did) but I find it tends to revolve around single-issue focal points and even if I agree with that, it inevitably leaves a huge amount of unsatisfactory side-issues. Witness those wanting to get out of the EU with (as was proven) little idea of where to go from there (or even how to exit), if you'll forgive my raising that rusty old subject, and yet somehow barely scraping that result against what even I felt was an unattractive but competent opposing viewpoint (because it held no promise of any refreshing change).

And that was one of the things that wiped much of the Corbynite promise out vs. Johnson. Those who took the Euroskeptic view didn't get anything useful from him (though he tended towards that), because Boris just played that game better, as we saw. Those who were still sufficiently Europhile didn't get any chance of solace there either because he didn't want to or dare to actually give the reasons why not to just let the Tories go all bull-in-a-chinashop about it. And this translated into votes for/against local candidates that many have since regretted even if they "got what they wanted".

That and the rise in newsworthyness of his brother's antics (strangely he had no real press exposure when certain people were surely looking for dirt-by-association on Jeremy, or maybe there just weren't any big issues for him to come out of the woodwork for, at that time, by comparison with the more direct political monstering), and all that antisemitic mud-flinging/-sticking that went on, etc.


On the whole, I find much of this to be an inevitable but regrettable distraction. Because populism (or the corresponding counter-populism) is so baked in. It's how Salmond got his party where he did, and how Sturgeon has kept it there (after a short tricky stage where the differences between the two major sub-sects of supporters might have significantly rifted the support base in dealing with the situation that ultimately discredited the former), plus how the DUP seems to have kept itself relevent nationally despite effectively refusing to govern locally unless someone else picks up the toys it has been throwing out of the pram (which is an interesting contrast to Sinn Fein's longstanding stance).

And it's why right now I'd be quite comfortable with Starmer in power (not even counting how my Dad had been a friend/'colleague' of his Dad as part of the deal), because he exudes a true wide-ranging competance that few others show. Not Truss, not Johnson, not Corbyn, certainly... Begrudgingly I'd say Cameron actually did, and May probably, with Brown being more competent than Blair, but single-issue events/opponents levered them out of position. Cable worked for me (but on a hiding to nothing in the climate of politics he was the leader in), better than Clegg turned out to be or... whoever succeeded him (can remember he was religious, etc, can't recall his name - which probably says something - and they moved on again later, right?), and Welsh politics has had its "interesting" moments and figures but I'd have to check my recollections before pontificating on their situation alongside the other national/nation perspectives that I follow more closely (willingly or otherwise).

And it's why Tories should not want to force an early General Election, either directly or by having Truss backstabbed enough to make it her (or her successor's) spiteful choice to do so. They need to both try to recover (demonstrate how they are not a total car-crash) and let Labour build up the Starmaresque (or successor?) version of counter-populism to make it the same old battle between the worst (or definitely most polarising) bits of ideology that seems to be considered necessary in this day and age. And, I'll admit, certainly helps the eventual victors (or at least the king-makers who prop up the victors).


And 'Jezza' is not a current threat to the Conservatives, could never be, and surely cannot have helped his cause if (all else being equal) he had remained as leader after his GE collapse. I could see him fully supporting the inumerable strikes/work-to-rules, perhaps even orchestrating a new General Strike in all but name, but not sure that would be advantageous. Starmer maybe can be considered as over-cautious in this very same issue, but for good reasons. Vocally supporting the workers (and others) without going front-line on the picket-line is the best of various increasingly bad choices (IMO!), one or other of which Corbyn would likely have decided to take instead.


But there's much what-if, here. We can't see, for example, how Ukraine or the Pandemic or the Sub-Prime fallout or the post-911 or the Falklands War might have unrolled with alternate leaders, or if combined with a different timing of other events (parlimentary recesses, monarchical deaths, weather events, otherwise unconnected world-market tremors, etc) that may either add to pressures or temporarily distract from the other crises and their increasingly bumpy roads. It's much more down to who was at the reins of power, than who might even be leading the opposition, and I don't have my trans-dimensional televiewer plugged in right now (the fuse it needs is a bugger to obtain in this reality!) in order to compare with the world that resulrs from any given alternate history. But I definitely have some ideas about what isn't a better storyline than even the currently troublesome one.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 14, 2022, 09:40:47 am
She sacked Kwarteng and announced another u-turn on policy, this time saying she won’t cut the corporation tax rise.

She also took four questions at the press conference announcing all that.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 14, 2022, 11:05:24 am
The replacement for the quasi-chancellor is the one time "hulture secretary", and the minister who probably sparked more healthcare strikes than anyone else in recent times. Because of course he would be.

(Even though he holds some of my own views, I'm not sure I'd want his support on them position. He's just angling for another go at being PM, and the PM is probably just keeping her potential rivals (except Rishi) ever closer to try to forstall them/give them more opportunities to sip at the poisoned challice.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 14, 2022, 11:14:48 am
This reminds me of The Thick of It, when Malcolm Tucker is effectively trying to bully someone into resigning a ministerial position, when he says that if thr guy resigns after so short a time it looks like he fucked up, but if the PM sacks him after so short a time, it looks like the PM fucked up.

Also, I like the word omnishambles, which Truss is looking more and more to be.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 14, 2022, 02:59:10 pm
Remember how Cameron promised safe and stable politics under the Conservatives, or Chaos under Miliband?

Miliband has a response in relation to the current situation.

https://twitter.com/Ed_Miliband/status/1580931307185401856

Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 14, 2022, 05:52:32 pm
Political meltdown. It's hilarious and I choose to ignore all the problems it can and will cause because if I don't I'll be sad.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 14, 2022, 06:06:50 pm
On the bright side I think this will lead to a long term improvement in government policy, especially if the current Tory crash sticks. The fallout of all this is going to be bad for Britain, but I think it will be far worse for the Tories, hopefully to the point that they are consigned to the same fringe party limbo that the Lib Dems were in for a long time.

I'd cheerfully settle for Labour and the Lib Dems trading places as being in power/the opposition for the next few decades. Don't exactly trust the Lib Dems with a number of things, but I think they generally support electoral reform, so that's a plus.


Current polling puts Labour's lead in English constituencies as so dominant that the SNP would be the official opposition party in Westminster if the polls held true in an actual GE, which would be absolutely hilarious to me. Two years until the next scheduled one, unless the Tory party grows some balls and does the right thing, so things might change. Given the current crop of nutters the Tory party has I doubt they can do any better leadership wise though.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 17, 2022, 10:48:54 am
Hearing Kwasi was gone and Jeremy was in was like having a vice taken off my nuts by a blacksmith but they walk back in the room with a beartrap and ask if I want the free upgrade
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 17, 2022, 01:06:30 pm
And it seems like Number 11 is calling the shots on pretty much everything Number 10 ever cared about. (Number 10 has to agree or it likely gets messier. Everybody else has to agree or its another spin of the revolving black door and it definitely gets messier. At least for those 'in power'.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: McTraveller on October 17, 2022, 01:30:05 pm
And it seems like Number 11 is calling the shots on pretty much everything Number 10 ever cared about. (Number 10 has to agree or it likely gets messier. Everybody else has to agree or its another spin of the revolving black door and it definitely gets messier. At least for those 'in power'.)

I choose to read this in the context of Doctor Who.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 17, 2022, 04:49:58 pm
And it seems like Number 11 is calling the shots on pretty much everything Number 10 ever cared about. (Number 10 has to agree or it likely gets messier. Everybody else has to agree or its another spin of the revolving black door and it definitely gets messier. At least for those 'in power'.)
It's hilarious how in the Tory government the exchequer has swung from powerless to god almighty back and forth like a tennis ball in wimbledon

Well, maybe not hilarious. But what can you do but laugh
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 18, 2022, 03:16:37 pm
Seeing rumblings that the Tory members want Boris back, and the MPs are starting to talk about May as a stable and competent alternative to the current mess.

While backtracking is preferable to the ongoing how-low-can-we-go? shitshow, it won't be a good look for the party if it happens.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 18, 2022, 03:41:38 pm
It’s fairly typical with how out of touch with reality they are.

In other news, the staff Chinese consulate - allegedly even the consul-general himself - in Manchester decided to pull a protester into their grounds and assault them before the police pulled them back out.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 18, 2022, 03:49:32 pm
It’s fairly typical with how out of touch with reality they are.

In other news, the staff Chinese consulate - allegedly even the consul-general himself - in Manchester decided to pull a protester into their grounds and assault them before the police pulled them back out.
Xi Jinping is wilding damn

Seeing rumblings that the Tory members want Boris back, and the MPs are starting to talk about May as a stable and competent alternative to the current mess.

While backtracking is preferable to the ongoing how-low-can-we-go? shitshow, it won't be a good look for the party if it happens.
'...And after everyone grows sick of new slurm, we reintroduce regular slurm and brand it SLURM CLASSIC!'
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 18, 2022, 09:56:20 pm
Seeing rumblings that the Tory members want Boris back, and the MPs are starting to talk about May as a stable and competent alternative to the current mess.
To be fair(!), they always actually wanted Maggie back, in one form or other. Including, quite possibly, as the actual mostly rotted zombie of her corpse. (Which others would also like, but for yet other reasons.)

The amusing thing is that Starmer has something like a -5% approval rating (might be weighted by left-of-Left people, to some degree?) and yet is still officially more popular (by several tens of percentage-points, in some cases) than pretty much any serious Tory (potential-)leader, right this moment. Obviously, the solution is clear to everyone on every side of the political spectrum... Appoint Starmer as Conservative Leader!  It solves all problems and hardly creates any new ones, right?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 18, 2022, 10:30:36 pm
Seeing rumblings that the Tory members want Boris back, and the MPs are starting to talk about May as a stable and competent alternative to the current mess.

While backtracking is preferable to the ongoing how-low-can-we-go? shitshow, it won't be a good look for the party if it happens.

Can the UK literally find no one new that's suitable at all?

lol
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 18, 2022, 11:08:22 pm
Can the UK literally find no one new that's suitable at all?

lol

Not in the Conservative Party, no. All the sensible ones were lost post-Brexit. Cameron was more than a bit of a twat but he was at least able to form a functioning government, May got handed a poisoned chalice and since then it's been steadily downhill. Or straight off a cliff, steadily downhill implies this was slow and reasonably safe. The Tories have been eating themselves alive with factionalism and internal bickering behind the scenes, not to mention the effects wealthy party donors have on things.

Problem for everyone else is that because the PM is chosen by parliament, and the Cons have a majority and so appoint which ever MP is their party leader, there's no (legal) way to force the Conservatives out of power so someone who isn't actively imploding can take over unless the Conservatives vote No Confidence in their own government, which they almost certainly won't do because most of them would lost their seats in the ensuing election and as such their jobs. So we're stuck with this mess for two years, which is when the parliament term ends.

Well technically King Charles could dissolve parliament and force an early election unilaterally, but the convention is that the monarch can't actually use the powers they supposedly have so it's not an actual option.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 19, 2022, 12:46:29 am
Well he can’t use those powers because he’s an unelected figurehead and it would be hugely questionable if he did attempt to do anything like that in a 21st Century democracy.

Then again, Truss was elected by a little over 80,000 people in a country of 60 million plus, so wtf do I know.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2022, 06:12:29 am
He can't use those powers unilaterally, he can however use the powers if it is so requested by the right ministers, similar to how the governor-general of Australia has dissolved parliament from time to time. The situation isn't really dire enough yet, but say a PM was trying to establish their own presidential dictatorship, abolish the country, ignore election results, refuse transfer of power or something very silly along those lines, a bunch of government officers could ask the reigning monarch for permission to dissolve parliament. The King or Queen's just one person, but the Crown's a whole crowd
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 19, 2022, 06:35:43 am
Oh man, Braverman's gone insane too.

https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1582410099263275010 (https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1582410099263275010)

"I'm afraid it's the Labour Party, it's the Lib Dems, it's the Coalition of chaos, it's the Guardian-reading, Tofu-eating, wokerati - dare I say the anti-growth coalition that we have to thank for the disruption we are seeing on our roads today!"

Turns out you just need to apply the slightest modicum of pressure to this lot and they lose their minds.

EDIT: https://twitter.com/___Mezzala/status/1582415198530699264?t=XR4YlpQRXQP66-kSOn2rrg& for the actual clip.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on October 19, 2022, 07:22:02 am
Wokerati xD

Personally I am a huge fan of Thai-Italian fusion food I don't see why he dislikes it!
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2022, 07:40:07 am
I thought UK public figures had learned better than to bring food racism into things since Big Brother started riots over Shilpa Poppadom. Smh she wouldn't dare say the same about curry eaters or kebab eaters so why fuck tofu eaters like that  >:(
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 19, 2022, 10:58:57 am
And Cruella De Braverman is gone.

C H A O S W I T H E D M I L I B A N D
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 19, 2022, 12:34:24 pm
Another one bites the dust. What horrorshow shall follow?

At this point I'm pretty sure we'd be better off chucking a net into a pub and making whoever gets caught a minister.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 19, 2022, 12:56:48 pm
Well hopefully the sight of the Conservatives fiddling while the country burns will end them.

This could continue the world’s most destructive game of musical chairs.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2022, 01:21:15 pm
So she lost her chancellor then her home secretary are we going to go full strike on foreign?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 19, 2022, 02:45:05 pm
Things going downhill quickly for Truss. Among 39 others, the Chief Whip (the person who is supposed to make sure party members toe the party line) abstained from an important vote:

Quote
Forty Tory MPs abstained in Labour's fracking motion earlier, meaning they did not vote yes or no on it.

Among the MPs who abstained are Chief Whip Wendy Morton. Tory MPs have told the BBC she is no longer in post - though her position is still unclear.

PM Liz Truss is also listed as having not voted. We don't know why she wasn't present.

Other notable MPs who didn't vote are former PM Theresa May, former Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng and former Home Secretary Priti Patel.

We don't know how many abstained on principle as Parliament doesn't record the reason for not voting - they may have been unable to be in Westminster.

But given that earlier in the day the vote was being described as a confidence motion, the fact that such senior MPs did not vote will raise eyebrows.

PPE: I just noticed the PM didn’t vote. What’s even the point anymore? Just resign. Throw your party under the bus and call a Christmas GE.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 19, 2022, 02:47:09 pm
She's a detached idealogue, clinging to the vaguest notion that she was right and everyone else is wrong. Getting her to resign is going to be like pulling teeth.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2022, 02:52:29 pm
PPE: I just noticed the PM didn’t vote. What’s even the point anymore? Just resign. Throw your party under the bus and call a Christmas GE.
'I am in blood stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more... Returning were as tedious as go o'er,' Macbeth, after killing his way over the point of no return
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on October 19, 2022, 02:53:25 pm
Excellent timing for that one...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 19, 2022, 05:37:35 pm
I gotta say, Suella Braverman is such a great name. I actually read this first time around as Beaverman, which was even better.
I wonder if she's ever sued anybody.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 19, 2022, 05:56:33 pm
Wokerati
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 19, 2022, 06:07:23 pm
I gotta say, Suella Braverman is such a great name. I actually read this first time around as Beaverman, which was even better.
I wonder if she's ever sued anybody.
For me, it was Ed Balls. Though I do appreciate that our foreign secretary's surname is Cleverly
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 19, 2022, 06:09:32 pm
I like Jeremy Hunt, because sometimes the BBC “accidentally” call him Cunt.

I am a child I know. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EmYwBHooA_M
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 19, 2022, 07:03:40 pm
There are no accidents in the land of Freudian slips.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on October 19, 2022, 07:18:05 pm
My mum works for the NHS so that's just his name in our books.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 19, 2022, 07:18:23 pm
lol

I looked him up on YouTube and found videos of him calling his Chinese wife Japanese, in front of the Chinese Foreign Minister.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on October 20, 2022, 08:03:08 am
Look like Truss took the bus
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 20, 2022, 08:13:16 am
It’ll be a niche pub quiz question now: who was PM when Queen Elizabeth II died?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 20, 2022, 08:28:26 am
Lettuce not be too hasty in assuming she'll leaf in an orderly fashion.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 20, 2022, 09:04:00 am
I don’t think Truss ever actually got in touch with any of the devolved administrations.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 20, 2022, 10:06:23 am
They chatted about the EIIR funeral, I think Sturgeon said, but nothing else.

(It's actually all a plot by CIIIR to clock up as many PMs as his mother, I think. Start hard, start fast...)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on October 20, 2022, 11:28:11 am
And now there are rumours of Boris Johnson running to take over as PM again...with some MPs flat-out threatening to leave the party if he does.

Saying that is easy but...well, At this point, fuck it. Go Boris, run! Burn it all to the ground!
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 20, 2022, 12:07:14 pm
great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jellies
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 20, 2022, 12:28:36 pm
The pound rose when Truss said she'd be resigning.

If anything's a damning condemnation of your economics, it's the fact that you quitting helped.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 20, 2022, 12:35:47 pm
yey
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: JoshuaFH on October 20, 2022, 12:44:47 pm
ptw
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 20, 2022, 12:55:27 pm
Jesus, Boris is threatening a return.

At this point I'm pretty depressed there's not mass protests. Only 1/5 people still support the government according to polls, but people are still sitting around going "Yeah, but... I can't be arsed really"
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 20, 2022, 05:10:26 pm
When party #1 has -52% approval rating and party #2 has -18% approval rating it's not hard to see why. If we had an actual opposition instead of neolibs vs neolibs the sheer vacuum of government competence we've seen wouldn't be possible. It's like we are the government of Austria-Hungary or the Ottoman Empire in the turn of the 20th century. Everyone wanted both dissolved, but both persisted because no one agreed what should come after
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Max™ on October 20, 2022, 05:23:13 pm
(https://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/014/609/dfg1.png)

Though I will say, the fact that your parties can get sick of a leader and chuck the moron overboard is arguably the first time I've ever envied y'all.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: JoshuaFH on October 20, 2022, 05:59:49 pm
Yeah, it'd be great if we could do that.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Max™ on October 20, 2022, 07:43:21 pm
OHJ MY GOPD WHAT IS THIS COLLAR SHIT ABOUT WTHJLKJSDLKFJSLKDF

THE RABBIT HOLE IS WORTH THE TRIP FOLKS

https://twitter.com/LillianaFuture/status/1568052444977922048

I CAN'T LAUGH PROPERLY

Spoiler: BAHAHAHAHA (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on October 20, 2022, 09:34:43 pm
I like Jeremy Hunt because... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2mrQ1Z73kM)  Is that a bad reason?

I hope the story about Truss's necklace goes big and drags in other politicians.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Max™ on October 20, 2022, 09:42:26 pm
I like the idea that the Queen recognized what it was and laughed herself to death.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 21, 2022, 12:38:03 am
Christ the prose of the new(ish?) political editor for the BBC is god-awful, I hate it.

It makes me long for the days of Brian Taylor, former Scotland political editor, who could be writing about the most boring topic imaginable but he would bring it to life with his writing. Ah well.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 21, 2022, 03:01:54 am
I wonder how much memes will spring up if Boris Johnson comes back into office. 
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 21, 2022, 06:11:11 am
He's got over 50 mps voting for him.

Absolute fucking embarrassment.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: The_Explorer on October 21, 2022, 09:04:17 am
I posted something similar in ameripol (from same movie), but this is even better and more fitting as its the actual scene. It literally reminds me of the plot of the movie, since its looking like boris is coming back lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUi1PdYn5nk

Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 21, 2022, 07:38:57 pm
And now there are rumours of Boris Johnson running to take over as PM again...with some MPs flat-out threatening to leave the party if he does.

Saying that is easy but...well, At this point, fuck it. Go Boris, run! Burn it all to the ground!

Sounds like a smart play for many Conservative MPs.  Threaten to leave the party if Boris returns, then join the Liberals as a person of principle.
I'm not british, so I am curious what that would be.

(I'm just happy that for once, the US doesn't have the most cocked-up English Speaking Political system)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: JoshuaFH on October 21, 2022, 11:51:07 pm
Apparently there was an incident at the Chinese Consulate in the UK. A Hong Kong Activist had been outside when people from the Consulate came out, tore down his signs, grabbed the guy, and were trying to drag him into the Consulate while beating him. Fortunately the police were there to help.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/world/europe/britain-china-consulate-protester.html
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 22, 2022, 12:11:37 am
Eh, I can't read NY Times articles because they want money, so fuck that.

Yeah, I heard about that. Doesn't seem relevant to UK Politics, more like East Asian politics. While I don't support the Chinese Consulate actions, isn't the Consulate considered the land of the Consulate, and isn't the person a Chinese citizen?
Maybe watch out who's lawn you protest on...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 22, 2022, 12:28:20 am
No it’s UK land people just aren’t allowed in there without permission. The protesters weren’t protesting in the grounds, they were protesting outside, on British soil and were assaulted by a group that allegedly included the consul-general, the top guy there.

But sure, if he was Chinese and it was Chinese soil it would make absolute sense for Britain to not give a shit about them pulling him from Britain into China and kicking the shit out of him in front of the police.

Really?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 22, 2022, 01:26:02 am
No it’s UK land people just aren’t allowed in there without permission. The protesters weren’t protesting in the grounds, they were protesting outside, on British soil and were assaulted by a group that allegedly included the consul-general, the top guy there.

But sure, if he was Chinese and it was Chinese soil it would make absolute sense for Britain to not give a shit about them pulling him from Britain into China and kicking the shit out of him in front of the police.

Really?

I did mention that I was unable to access the article...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 22, 2022, 01:40:32 am
The incident is pretty bad, but it's just going to be one of those things that China does, that will be summarily ignored; especially with the current chaos happening in the UK Parliament right now.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 22, 2022, 01:53:43 am
No it’s UK land people just aren’t allowed in there without permission. The protesters weren’t protesting in the grounds, they were protesting outside, on British soil and were assaulted by a group that allegedly included the consul-general, the top guy there.

But sure, if he was Chinese and it was Chinese soil it would make absolute sense for Britain to not give a shit about them pulling him from Britain into China and kicking the shit out of him in front of the police.

Really?

I did mention that I was unable to access the article...

We’re having the same conversation across threads brah. This isn’t a NYT exclusive.

Regardless, you displayed ignorance on the situation re: the legal status of the land, and implied that it was okay the guy got assaulted because you thought he was Chinese protesting China on Chinese soil rather than asking what the details were or looking for a different, readable source.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 22, 2022, 01:59:12 am
(That was about a week ago, and has been rumbling on for most of that time, so not sure why some newswires were unaware of it then suddenly were. It's either news or it isn't (probably the former, for anyone who cares) and not something hidden away under secrecy or anything. So perhaps only actually filled a gap in NYT coverage, eventually?)

Have a BBC link (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-63318285), the most recent I could find (filed under "China", admitedly), and an earlier one (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63280519) (UK news) that I don't think was the earliest I saw, but has the blow-by-blow set out nicely.


@ninjaLidku: Word is that Chinese diplomats (and 'diplomats') tend to not want to look bad to Xi/home authorities, so will act all "holier loyaller than thou" to extremes like this just to not get told off for ignoring vicious provocations like... protesters saying "down with this sort of thing" and "careful now". They feel pressured to over-react. Which probably happens with other consular/etc presences, but seems to be something culturally affecting China (especially in "yeah, we can stand outside the gates of Number 10 and boo at our own HoG, fair play to them, just don't impede the traffic too much" countries, like our own) much more at the moment...

Double-ninjaed, now, but nothing more to add beyond the unpaywalled link. (Might be GreatFirewalled, but then I suspect NYT already is... ;) )
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 22, 2022, 02:12:05 am
Thanks for the info!

The presence of the Consul-General probably encouraged the other members of his staff to more aggressive action.  The fact he would be so brazen is probably a result of the weak political situation in Britain. So I retract my earlier question about relevance.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 22, 2022, 06:35:34 am
OHJ MY GOPD WHAT IS THIS COLLAR SHIT ABOUT WTHJLKJSDLKFJSLKDF

THE RABBIT HOLE IS WORTH THE TRIP FOLKS

https://twitter.com/LillianaFuture/status/1568052444977922048

I CAN'T LAUGH PROPERLY

Spoiler: BAHAHAHAHA (click to show/hide)
Dare you enter my magical realm?

The incident is pretty bad, but it's just going to be one of those things that China does, that will be summarily ignored; especially with the current chaos happening in the UK Parliament right now.
Might not be ignored by China though. This is one of those unfortunate things for those consular staff, where they can be blamed for being too soft and blamed for overreacting. RIP their careers
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 22, 2022, 09:34:18 am
...this is of course decidely ChinaNews, but with Hu Jintau (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-63355950) possibly having overstepped (or understepped?) some line or other...

I think they'll find themselves Ok for having reacted fervently. China doesn't strike me as being embarassed/apalled or in any way significantly inconvenienced by such actions (given all the other national awkwardnesses they freely commit, up to and including things Taiwan-focussed). A feather in their caps, or at least avoid the greater ignominity of having effectively smiled at behaviour that would never have been tolerated (and undoubtedly punished (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-63355950) in the homeland - including HK, and in some imagined future throughout RoC when it is transfered into PRoC hands.


The British angle is that not as much complaint has been made about it as might have been in other Western hosts (and some non-Western ones, not themselves feeling indebted alreay, might be quite sharp). Surprisingly, no Chinese complaint has been made about the 'rescue by intrusion'... At least publically, that I noted. Possibly a sign that (however much they actually approved of their staff) at a high level they didn' feel it was a legitmate cause to have been actioned in the first place.

But who can tell with low-grade (if extraordinary) International Incidents like this. And various private discussions and communications that doubtless fly around behind the scenes.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 22, 2022, 10:43:30 am
There also the fact that China's Government would very much like to pretend nobody is opposing them.
Thus the Counsel being in the News is a No-No, since it gave the Democracy Advocates a greater platform and sympathy.

The better tactic would have been to wait until nightfall and the protesters left, then destroy all the signage.

Alternate theory: The incident was staged and approved at the highest levels to gauge Britain's ability to exercise surveillance and control. If Britain can do little on their own soil, then China knows they have a free hand in Hong Kong.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 22, 2022, 11:03:13 am
...this is of course decidely ChinaNews, but with Hu Jintau (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-63355950) possibly having overstepped (or understepped?) some line or other...
Maybe Xi just doesn't want any character around him who could feasibly replace him. A former world leader may not be someone he wants nearby him when he's in the middle of becoming the undisputed gigalord
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 22, 2022, 01:58:11 pm
There also the fact that China's Government would very much like to pretend nobody is opposing them.
Thus the Counsel being in the News is a No-No, since it gave the Democracy Advocates a greater platform and sympathy.
That's a given. With the possible exception of Bridge Man (the news of his action circulated internally despite the usual heavy machine of censorship activating around all mention of the issue) there's probably a dearth of common knowledge within China about anything the top brass don't feel is germaine (or cannot spin to their cause).

I imagine in-country Democracy Advocates are whistling in the wind with what little internal publicity there is from this action. And out-of-country ones (like those who had the protests that led to this) can do pretty much as little about it, insofar as back-home is concerned, as ever.

Letting posters stand longer wouldn't be any more useful than (as hoped?) driving the protestors away. On balance, I don't see it having been better for the servants of the authoritative regime to have held back and risked an indeterminate escalation of protest without any official reaction. Were all protestors going to even leave (and leave their material materially unguarded) at night? Doesn't sound like typical protestor behaviour, on balance, and doesn't sound like good anti-protestor taskforce behaviour to depend upon it.

Look (e.g.) at the wave of pro-Tibet protests in 2008, across Europe/the West in general. With the difference being that (in the UK, but similar to the French/etc situation with their own local services) the Met arrested individuals who were deemed to be ringleaders in a situation which was embarassing (politically) to the UK, in the year of the Beijing Olympics.

There's comparatively fewer political reasons to kowtow (fig. or lit.) to China, right now and several interesting new ones to let them eat a bit more of the general protesting. If the PM has any thoughts of having a say in the matter, they (he, she, and now whoever is next) have had other bigger concerns so there'll probably not be the same crackdown as then, especially after having had to respond (and positively so) to Hong Kong residents who have had their promised continuity of democracy dashed, and the de-facto alliance (or strict neutrality yet having a definite lean) with Russia. Amongst so many other things.


(I haven't heard much about why Hu wandered off, 'escorted'. I suspect we're supposed not to know, at least until we're told (something, correct or not). I doubt he will be 'disappeared', but it does sound a bit like "gone to retire to my dacha (in Siberia)"/being put on the bus, rather than having to be put on trial for something to fully discredit (whichever nuancsd parts Xi wishes to discredit of) his legacy in order to reinforce his own. It could be full on Game Of Thrones stuff, or just "about time the old guy just retires". It could even have been Hu just asking not to be part of the new era, before it ever became necessary to be asked to do so. I don't think Hu has a comeback in him. But then I didn't think Boris did (one of those Comback Kids, I know, but I felt sure that this was it, this time) yet he's possibly going to surprise us. Definitely has the momentum to surprise us. Just needs to poke the right ultra-minority support-base at the right time.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 22, 2022, 02:53:47 pm
"Who else but Boris?"
-slogan that puts Boris back into office
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 22, 2022, 03:12:42 pm
It's hilarious hearing about the Rishi vs Boris leadership struggle when only Penny Mordaunt's announced her leadership bid. I'm sure that's bound to change eventually but for now let's go Penny woooooo

Got to say I don't know a lick about her so I hope I don't end up having to eat eggs on an out of context quote 5 years from now when PM Mordaunt announces we're privatising haemogoblin
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 22, 2022, 03:33:11 pm
It's hilarious hearing about the Rishi vs Boris leadership struggle when only Penny Mordaunt's announced her leadership bid. I'm sure that's bound to change eventually but for now let's go Penny woooooo

Got to say I don't know a lick about her so I hope I don't end up having to eat eggs on an out of context quote 5 years from now when PM Mordaunt announces we're privatising haemogoblin

I heard Sunak has 100 MPs backing and hasnt even declared yet
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 22, 2022, 04:54:14 pm
The Beeb have a page dedicated to MOs that have either publicly declared support for someone or has told them in the record who they support, and Sunak did indeed have 117 the last I looked at it (Boris had 54!)

Let’s see… here (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63343308). Looks like Boris lost one and Sunak is way ahead.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 22, 2022, 10:07:15 pm
Johnson and Sunak apparently had a meeting (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63361384), though in private, so let’s speculate wildly!

I don’t think Boris really has anything to offer, I think he’s bluffing that he has 100+ MPs supporting him in order to gain some sort of concession from Rishi by offering to stand aside. Allegedly the party membership (the people who would vote in a contest if there were more than one contender) favour Boris - WHY!? - so he’s wheeling and dealing to become part of the government or something.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on October 23, 2022, 01:16:00 am
Johnson and Sunak apparently had a meeting (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63361384), though in private, so let’s speculate wildly!

I don’t think Boris really has anything to offer, I think he’s bluffing that he has 100+ MPs supporting him in order to gain some sort of concession from Rishi by offering to stand aside. Allegedly the party membership (the people who would vote in a contest if there were more than one contender) favour Boris - WHY!? - so he’s wheeling and dealing to become part of the government or something.

Okay okay... wild speculation... the meeting involved Boris, Sunak, Truss, a cage and a whip.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 23, 2022, 03:51:19 am
What happens in no10 stays in no10
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 23, 2022, 05:23:57 am
Johnson and Sunak apparently had a meeting (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63361384), though in private, so let’s speculate wildly!

I don’t think Boris really has anything to offer, I think he’s bluffing that he has 100+ MPs supporting him in order to gain some sort of concession from Rishi by offering to stand aside. Allegedly the party membership (the people who would vote in a contest if there were more than one contender) favour Boris - WHY!? - so he’s wheeling and dealing to become part of the government or something.

Someone claiming to be a Tory party member actually called in to one of the news shows earlier and said Rishi isn't British because he's brown. There's been a noticable uptick in racism and US style dogwhistling conspiracy theory type nonsense in the Tory party for a while now, Boris fits neatly into that type of politics.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on October 23, 2022, 07:29:31 am
Johnson and Sunak apparently had a meeting (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63361384), though in private, so let’s speculate wildly!

I don’t think Boris really has anything to offer, I think he’s bluffing that he has 100+ MPs supporting him in order to gain some sort of concession from Rishi by offering to stand aside. Allegedly the party membership (the people who would vote in a contest if there were more than one contender) favour Boris - WHY!? - so he’s wheeling and dealing to become part of the government or something.
Because he's Fun and A Bit Of A Character.

It's why he got so far despite being a proven repeated liar (Even if Laura Kuenssberg was somehow completely unable to find an example of him lying in the past (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56624437)) and repeatedly spaffing money up the wall on vanity projects.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on October 23, 2022, 07:41:35 am
Quote
His unique way of running things - and sometimes chaotic approach to decision-making - has, sources tell me, led exasperated colleagues in No 10 to nickname him "Trolley".

"You think you are pushing it along a path towards your goal then suddenly it veers off disastrously," says one insider.

Best nickname

Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 23, 2022, 02:45:25 pm
I think the Tories favor Boris Johnson over Rishi Sunak because he's a non-ethnic white. It's obvious the party based on conservatism doesn't want an Indian-descended person to be Prime Minister of the UK. I don't know why anyone is surprised that they're clamoring for Boris Johnson back, out of all people.

lol
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Egan_BW on October 23, 2022, 03:33:35 pm
I mean, his name is Johnson, that just radiates the sort of male energy that conservatives love.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 23, 2022, 03:41:18 pm
Everyone's tired of BoJo. But maybe Alex de Pfeffel is the guy for the job.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 23, 2022, 03:42:16 pm
Johnson said he’s not running, the coward.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 23, 2022, 03:46:28 pm
He's probably cut a deal with Sunak, probably with the intent of being one of his cabinet ministers. I think the Tories are going to try and keep this from being an actual party election, the MPs will try to narrow down contenders to one before it ever reaches the membership.

Braverman is backing Sunak, stating that now is not the time for fantasies. This is the same person who blamed the shambles of the past month and a half on the 'tofu-eating wokerati' by the way, so I guess she's familiar with fantasy.

EDIT: Looks like Boris was falling far short of the required number of MPs to make his run viable, turns out the 100 backers figure floating around was a lie, the actual number was about 50. And Mordaunt wasn't willing to work with him rather than run for leader herself, so this sudden backing out is a face saving measure.

Some of the Tories have been flip flopping so fast that you could probably use them to run a generator. Nadhim Zahawi, Chancellor for two days before Boris resigned, which he pushed for, put out an article in the Telegraph backing Boris for leader again on the same day Boris announced he isn't running. Half an hour later, backing Sunak on Twitter.

I wouldn't trust these people to run a fucking bake sale and they're in charge of the damn country.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 23, 2022, 06:17:26 pm
I wouldn't trust these people to run a fucking bake sale and they're in charge of the damn country.

For two more years.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 23, 2022, 07:43:15 pm
I wonder how British-Indian and Indian people will react if Rishi Sunak becomes Prime Minister.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 23, 2022, 11:38:47 pm
I wonder how British-Indian and Indian people will react if Rishi Sunak becomes Prime Minister.
They'll love him, for the most part.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 24, 2022, 09:35:56 am
I wonder how British-Indian and Indian people will react if Rishi Sunak becomes Prime Minister.
As a Winchester->Oxford->Banking->Tory Party candidate my Brindian friends are thrilled at how Rishi really understands the problems Indian investment bankers face in the UK. On the bright side Indian companies like Infosys should benefit from their gov contracts... Companies his wife holds significant interests in :o
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: The_Explorer on October 24, 2022, 11:30:27 am
Well this is a nice surprise, though I dunno anything about him. What is nice is seeing all the white racists get triggered that he is now PM of the conservative party lol. Granted, I dunno if the conservative party is like right or left wing or middle or whatever, but I just like seeing all the racists mad. I mean, I assume they lean right cause of the name and all, but europe parties are a bit weird cause I thought some were right wing based on the name but were actually left/middle lol. And even reading about them, it doesn't help sometimes what they are :( I'm just a dumb american who only understands our own parties lol.

I really thought it was gonna be Boris again, so at least its not him.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: NJW2000 on October 24, 2022, 11:41:33 am
Yeah, I reckon a lot of British people going to be quite upset about having a brown man in charge.

Especially among the Conservative Party membership, so that's going to be interesting.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 24, 2022, 01:04:45 pm
IMO, best of a bad lot (well, I had a better candidate in mind in one of the early post-Boris contest departures, but still only as least-worst even then). He's got credibility. He's even been proven to be right about what happens when it isn't done his way (normally an unknown... it's not like you can play Fantasy Football League with a personal choice political policies) so it'll give him definite kudos amongst the kind of people not entirely "I'll vote for anything that looks like Boris, and only that!" or the "never (again?) voting Conservative" crowds.

I think there is a stability there, lacking in the last incumbant. But time will tell if he messes up differently. I see less chance of an imminent G.E. (unless he gets things going so well that he calls it early) so who knows where that leads us to in a possibly ramped up to be more sane representation like we really need.


The next obvious question is whether Scotland gets its referendum. (Not through the PM, of course.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on October 24, 2022, 01:07:29 pm
As the richest MP, Rishi Sunak is only a few hundred million short of being a billionaire, but perhaps his time in office will help with that.

I mean, I assume they lean right cause of the name and all, but europe parties are a bit weird cause I thought some were right wing based on the name but were actually left/middle lol.

They are right-wing in the British context, but maybe you'd consider them relatively moderate in the US context (because US politics, globally, is an outlier).



I'm looking forward to the Conservatives losing the next election, even if Starmer is a Tory-light melt.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 24, 2022, 01:10:32 pm
I did think he was the least objectionable during the lead up to Truss, but that’s like saying I’d rather be punched in the left arm rather than the right.

He also seems to actually give a shit about the union beyond the sake of the union, but we’ll see how that goes. If he does well with that a I’ll be sad, but he’s a Tory so if he does well for anything other than South-East England the world will end.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 24, 2022, 01:41:54 pm
Well this is a nice surprise, though I dunno anything about him. What is nice is seeing all the white racists get triggered that he is now PM of the conservative party lol. Granted, I dunno if the conservative party is like right or left wing or middle or whatever, but I just like seeing all the racists mad. I mean, I assume they lean right cause of the name and all, but europe parties are a bit weird cause I thought some were right wing based on the name but were actually left/middle lol. And even reading about them, it doesn't help sometimes what they are :( I'm just a dumb american who only understands our own parties lol.

I really thought it was gonna be Boris again, so at least its not him.

Brief rundown of the important UK parties.

Conservatives are firmly right wing. Before Brexit they had a centre-right faction, but after some candidate shuffling post-Brexit those guys mostly got replaced with more right wing people, so the party as a whole has jumped a chunk further to the right over the last decade or so. The members have always been pretty right wing, but it was generally considered rude to espouse the viewpoints that they hold in polite company, so until recently they just didn't talk about it much outside of pubs.

Labour is the center/center-left/center-right party, with a small contingent of proper left wing people. Used to be actual socialists, grew out of miners strikes and so on around the start of the 1900s as the political representative of the unions, became a neo-liberal middle class dominated party in the 90s. Big rift between their different member groups, a mix of ideological and class based divides.

Lib Dems are the 3rd party, waaaaay smaller and less important because of the FPTP electoral system screwing them over. Sort of straddle the center like Labour usually does. Consistently back electoral reform, which is nice. Otherwise couldn't tell you much about them.


Far as English politics goes they're basically all that matter, and sadly that means they're basically all that matter in UK politics. Odd one's out for minor parties being the SNP and the DUP, two regional parties that actually do matter from time to time.

SNP are the Scottish nationalist party, left/center-left, and have basically replaced Labour in Scotland. They back electoral reform, though the current stupidity that is FPTP is the only reason they have a good chunk of seats in Parliament, and Independance of course. In parliament they basically vote with Labour.

DUP are the Northern Irish unionist party. Pro-UK, very conservative on social issues, generally considered more than a bit insane by everyone in the rest of the UK. Main rival is Sinn Fein, the Irish republican party, who are vaguely center-left to my recollection, and while they stand in UK elections they don't actually take the seats they win because they would have to swear an oath to the monarch, leaving them vacant as a protest instead. Traditionally the UK parties don't stand in NI, so it's basically just the two of them there.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on October 24, 2022, 02:12:22 pm
Rishi Sunak becoming the next Prime Minister is super freaking EPIC.

And the fact he's PM out of the Conservative Party is even more deliciously ironic. His colleagues must be secretly going crazy on the inside. LOL

More British Raj to Prime Ministership of the UK.. it's come full circle..
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 24, 2022, 02:14:42 pm
His colleagues are the ones that put him in position though? He was also most popular among his party colleagues the first time round.

The party members are probably not happy about it though.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 24, 2022, 02:50:10 pm
(Re: Brief rundown)

Well, LibDems were formed from the Liberal Party (once the main to-and-fro competitor with the Conservatives, back before Labour emerged as a political force[1]) and the SDP (Social Democractic Party, created by the "Gang Of Four" - four dissaffected Labour centrists - after Labour lost to Thatcher's Conservatives in 1979) and have generally been the (distant-)third party for most of the time since they were created, at least at National level.  When Labour (under then PM Brown) found itself nearly level-pegging with the Conservatives (under next PM Cameron) with neither having a majority, the LibDems formed a Coaliation with the Conservatives (as hinted by my naming the next PM!) in what seemed like a mixture of "king-maker" and somehow getting into power even though (despite doing well) they were nowhere near getting into power under their own steam.

The result put many people off the idea of coaliaions, which aren't generally a thing that happens here in the UK; though the DUP supporting the Conservatives under May, etc, might be considered similar.

It also put people off the LibDems, for 'selling out'. Because of various promises by the LibDems (e.g. tuition fee issues that attracted students to them) which they surely thought they'd never have to honour. They clearly found that they had to default on them, as junior partner to the Tories, and so disappointed many of their natural base. They probably moderated some Conservative things, but it's hard to tell how much so they really couldn't get any credit for making an already bad Austerity.  (It was in light of the global economic depression which Brown had mitigated a bit, probably, but because he left office and the low-tax/low-spend Tories took over we never really got any hint of the complete bounce-back of the kind we might - or might not - have had.


Also, add Plaid Cymru ("Plide Cumree") to the 'others' list. The Welsh party that does the same as the SNP does for Scotland (though more rumbling and less "absolutely in control of their own regional government), and... these days at least... not as radically subnationalist as Sinn Feinn might be considered to be (except, of course, they also don't just not want to be part of the UK, they also want to become part of Ireland.

All-nation (or at least all-British Mainlaind[2]) parties also include everything from the wacky Official Monster Raving Loony Party (https://www.omrlp.com/) (whose policies I think are probably the most realistic) to the wacko successors to the United Kingdom Independence Party (whose policies got absorbed into the Tories anyway, but not very successfully). There's also your Greens (with actual MPs, but not many, and certainly below their proportional level of general support) and redder-than-the-Red/etc parties. But effectively it's two parties (and a third) in the UK parliament, one party dominant (and the other main three as also-rans) in the Scottish one, a rather more dynamic and (generally?) friendly mix in the Welsh assembly and nobody doing that much in the Norn Ir'n one as one party (and, seemingly, it is always the same one party these days) not playing ball and so spoiling it for everyone else.

[1] Pror to Conservatives/Liberals it was various other pairings, generally, like "Whigs and Tories", but the lines from the Tories of old to the (conserva)Tories of now are a bit mixed. And I couldn't tell you the ins and outs off the top of my head...

[2] NI being a special case. I think it's bascially got two pro-Irish parties, two pro-British parties (each half of each half swaying politically in the more usual two directions as well) and a "we don't have an opinion" fifth-party trying to lever itself in there. But of all the areas of the UK I find that one a little bit harder to even think I understand.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 24, 2022, 03:10:57 pm
'As is tradition with BBC executives, once something is 17 years old they lose interest,'
- the last joke on Mock the Week. Man I'm gonna miss that show.

Anyways RE Rishi Sunak owning the racists I would ask our Atlantic cousins to not project their culture war onto the UK; I grow tired of reading about how every European politician is the Trump of xyz country or this is sure to rile up all the racists as if Sharon Grimaline Barnsdale from Farnham age 56 is the same as some Washington suit with a KKK hood in the closet -_-

For context the UK conservative party is usually the party of firsts. First Jewish PM, first female PM, first British-Indian female home secretary, first Black Chancellor of the Exchequer, first British Asian home secretary, first Buddhist home secretary and there's probably a whole bunch of other first this first that you can add that I don't remember. The UK parliament had its first black MP before the USA existed; though it's honestly a stupid metric to go on. The conservative party markets itself as the party which doesn't care what you are, and the party credits that with why it scores all the "firsts." The quiet part is they don't care what you are provided you have money, but I digress. You may as well be celebrating an Irish PM who opposed Irish home rule on the basis that it would surely upset the English, or celebrate a Jewish PM who supported aggressive imperialism because it would surely offend the Christians, or support the first female PM who unleashed privatisation on the UK because it would surely upset the misogynists.

I'm upset about Rishi because he's not the right man for the job. He's in it for the money, was raised in a boarding school that charges twice the salary of anyone in my borough, has a clear conflict of interest with awarding government contracts to companies his wife has shares in, bragged about ending the reallocation funding of impoverished areas of the UK, and when confronted with his tax dodging responded by saying they pay all the tax they're legally obliged to

Regarding libdems, they really could've been something. Breaking the student fees promise was such a bizarre move that guaranteed their death, then in the post-Clegg world they drifted without a clear goal or purpose. Stuff like "we'll add a heart to Tories and a brain to labour" was a poor slogan, because it didn't have any clear identity to gather people around besides "hate labour hate tories simple as." Which was fine in a world where the spawnlings of Farage didn't exist. Their voting reform was a missed opportunity :/
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 24, 2022, 03:24:33 pm
You know, the Republican party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Day_O%27Connor) has (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell) firsts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice) also...

But back to the point, sorta sad to see that apparently the Left is completely out of English politics.  Then again, you lot still have nobility, so I guess that makes sense.

But back to the original "culture wars" comment: Wait and see how bad the racists get AFTER your first brown PM. 
For the love of God DON'T let the racists take over one of your three major political parties.  They'll certainly TRY to take over Labour or LibDems, if they're anything like the Far-Right drek.  For better or worse, they're less likely to take over the party that put the leading brown man in charge.  LibDems seem particularly vulnerable since they need a cause, but if Labour draws upon the working class, there might be fears of job stealing to draw upon.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 24, 2022, 04:08:30 pm
Racism is normally more of a draw for the Conservative base in my experience. They like to hammer the 'tough on immigration' line. Not actually doing anything about it of course, because our economy needs young people to prop up our aging demographics. They also present themselves as the financially responsible ones, but IIRC the deficit tends to grow under their care.

Lib Dems are big on multiculturalism and quite firm supporters of individual rights, so it'd be a hard sell for them. Wouldn't be surprised to see some racism bubbling away behind closed doors, but it's not something they would try to build a platform on. I don't recall any racism related scandals with them.

Labour has some issues with racism, from both the working class and middle/upper class elements. Tends to make the news more because they've generally taken the party line of being pro-multiculturalism, so allowing racists to run around is hypocritical.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 24, 2022, 04:23:11 pm
The actual Left (in UK terms... given how variable that is in international experiences) isn't as 'out of it' as all that.

The whole push for Jeremy Corbyn[1] by the "Momentum" group wasn't imaginary. Even if the dedicated Socialist Worker sellers/subscribers might think he doesn't veer to port quite as much as the 'real real Left' would like.

True, though, that (perhaps as a bounce-back against the Corbynite motion) while Starmer is almost by definition leftward-inclined[2] he can be considered centre-left, centre or even centre-right, depending upon the issues concerned. (Perhaps because of the Tories vacating the near-centre ground and the LDs being somewhat MIA still.)


The left-Left has had problems, though. Though not uniquely so, they seem to have been hit by various "-isms and -ists" scandals; antisemitism in particular, not helped by the dreadful handling of the aftermath. And, like US politics, it seems that similar scandals in the right-Right area of politics (perhaps anti-Islamic, though anti-Jewish is of course something there too) just don't stick anything like as much for... reasons.

((And this latter point has been nicely described by Grim, who has ninjaed me and done a better job of summarising some aspects of it.))

And so there's an Overton Window aspect, but I don't think that there's really a lack of Left-Wingers. Just that you get a number of Brexiteer Leftists who seem to have decided that Brexiteer Right candidates are preferable to various choices of (potentially-)Europhile Left ones for just that one single-issue reason.  And, seeing some interviews, apparently without yet admitting that they'd just kicked themselves in the teeth by doing so.


[1] One of a strange string of people named Jeremy... a very diverse field they're arrayed across. Consider a comparison between Corbyn, Clarkson, Paxman, Vine, Beadle, Hardy... I get the idea that most any random pairing of those would create an argument. (Even Paxman and Vine, BBC stalwarts both but of differing styles. And as for even whether left-wing comedian Hardy would have tolerated left-wing politician Corbyn..?)

[2] Definitely his father was. I mean, naming his son after Labour's first parliamentary leader isn't meaningless... And I can confirm that this was not a surprise to those who knew him.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 24, 2022, 06:04:45 pm
You know, the Republican party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Day_O%27Connor) has (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell) firsts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice) also...
This corroborates my point; being the "first" of anything is not even a token indication of good intent to anyone. My list is not a list of celebration, it's pointing out how being the first x has no correlation to supporting anything, not even the interests of the demographic they hail from. Like a gay politician who supports gay torture camps. There's no kudos for winning a personal career milestone.

But back to the point, sorta sad to see that apparently the Left is completely out of English politics.  Then again, you lot still have nobility, so I guess that makes sense.
It's more to do with bankers than barons but the end result is the same

But back to the original "culture wars" comment: Wait and see how bad the racists get AFTER your first brown PM.
A white man attacked my mother during covid for coming from a covid-prevalent country, despite not coming from there, and working on the vaccine trial. Two white Britons came to her defence and forced him to back off. I've been assaulted twice on my race; one was black, the other brown. I've seen one serious case of harassment where a tall white skinhead was verbally abusing and intimdating a muslim girl. But these have been mostly exceptional. On the day to day basis the most serious racism I see or others tell me they find are problems of community (no one trusts each other), problems of belonging (the eternal foreigner wherever they are "oh that's an interesting accent where's it from or where are you really from though"), dealing with a casual racism (banter which doesn't stop but got old a long time ago) and sophisticated racism (people who are turbofucking racist but have the vocabulary of a civil rights campaigner to disguise it). And worst of all, the ever present structural racism, in which you can't get no money or post because you didn't have the right lineage, and having an xyz at the top doesn't change it because the structure is still the same :|
Racism is rarely simple. If it was as easy as bad guys vs good guys it would be wonderful but peace between two people is easy, prosperity between communities is difficult, prosperity between communities that aren't even communities is something that needs thought (money can substitute) to achieve

 
For the love of God DON'T let the racists take over one of your three major political parties.  They'll certainly TRY to take over Labour or LibDems, if they're anything like the Far-Right drek.  For better or worse, they're less likely to take over the party that put the leading brown man in charge.  LibDems seem particularly vulnerable since they need a cause, but if Labour draws upon the working class, there might be fears of job stealing to draw upon.
It's the UK. Our racist parties don't care what race you are as long as you are racist too

I am not joking. But you can laugh if you want

Racism is normally more of a draw for the Conservative base in my experience. They like to hammer the 'tough on immigration' line. Not actually doing anything about it of course, because our economy needs young people to prop up our aging demographics. They also present themselves as the financially responsible ones, but IIRC the deficit tends to grow under their care.
There's been a lot of muddling in news between migration, undocumented migration, refugees and so on, it doesn't help to add to it by conflating them here too. Because if you go solely on tax balances and productivity, then conservative policy makes sense - if you wish to benefit from migration, then you need to select for young productive workers, and not include families or older persons who will take more in public spending than they will pay in taxes. But I think it's a dreadful thing to reduce human value down to "you pay taxes or fuck off," especially when there are many peoples with family abroad who cannot bring in their family on a permanent basis because of the trouble of getting a residency visa. Soulless money counting got us into this mess to begin with.

There are four immigration issues which the UK plays political hot potato with;
-The first, which is shared with the LibDems, Labour and Tories, and is reflected in reality, is that migrants who have come here legally are NEEDED for a lot of critical vacancies. Highly technical, highly skilled work for example in the NHS, where the UK employers cannot attract enough UK national workers because the salary is unfair and unlivable. This madness of creating a permanent underclass of people you intend to fuck over until they die, retire or go back home to sustain a system that is inherently unfair is redressed as progressive charity, but is an example of structural racism itself. My own workplace is a marvel of wonderful bosses who do not have a bone of racism in their bodies; nevertheless it chafes me everyday that everyone running the show with no salary are ASEAN or West African or Afro-Caribbean and everyone doing fuck all with huge salaries are WASP.
This is not an acceptable solution. Do not make the jobs you have made hell someone else's problem. Make the jobs acceptable for everyone. I will be happier for it

-The second is the aging population. If young workers must pay for the aging population, then why do we not select for young workers and reject everyone else? Why do we not encourage young peoples to have kids? Because I don't think anyone seriously believes immigration is the answer to our pension or healthcare budget. I have not met a single young person <30 who made more than £29k. Each one at best can give the state £3.6k in income tax, £2.1k in NI and however much in VATs. That wouldn't even cover the NHS balance for 1 old person in 2016, let alone 2022 (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/01/ageing-britain-two-fifths-nhs-budget-spent-over-65s), and does not account for any other gov expenditure. Even if young people did not have the linear habit of becoming old people, current young people and projected young peoples are not enough and will never be enough, because young people are not paid enough as is. Taxes on the already incredible wealth older generations hold, or taxes on the incredible wealth wealther classes of society or corporations possess - though radical, should be considered as potential permanent balances to the government cheque book.

-The third is migration with documents vs migration sans documents. E.g. should you be able to live and work in the UK without a passport at all. Maybe one day; but this is a separate issue, and it is rather annoying that it is bundled together with the first issue when it is its own issue - one which itself should be subdivided, e.g. between people who overstay visas vs people who come here under even more precarious means with even less support available. You can get some nasty end results, like one of my friends from Pakistan who can't afford to stay, can't afford to leave the city, is sleeping on the streets, can't work because he came here illegally and no one will hire you without proof of residence/right to work, has no pathway to citizenship or residency, lost asylum appeal, suffering from heart problems and so on. The problems people like him face are completely different from someone who has come here legally to do work; they will require different responses too. It causes me mental pain to treat such a big issue as just you are racist if you have border control and fuck white people when it goes way beyond that. The race of Priti Patel should not matter when discussing her border policy unless her race is somehow relevant to her border policy, otherwise it's just an uncomfortable insinuation that anyone who is non-white should automatically be in favour of abolishing borders because their parents must've come here illegally -_-

The fourth issue is dealing with refugees, in particular what constitutes a refugee exactly. The main point of contention is that if you cross several safe countries to try and get into the UK sans documents, should you be protected as a refugee or are you in category three. Answer wrong and the gov may exile you to Rwanda, which I'm still not sure how that came to be. There is also an interesting difference in how the UK gov is much more likely to accept refugees who arrive by plane and have good documentation, e.g. Hong Kongers and Ukrainians getting accepted easily versus the 2015 refugee crisis.

There are some other issues which are comparatively less-discussed these days in political hot potato, but are worth mentioning. Multiculturalism was a historic labour meme which hasn't weathered well due to labour malpractice in handling child grooming gangs, terrorism and general national depression. The other thing worth noting is the UK gov taking a stance to effectively exile British citizens who joined ISIS. I'm certain the UK gov will at some point try to make it legal to revoke someone's citizenship even if they have no dual

Lib Dems are big on multiculturalism and quite firm supporters of individual rights, so it'd be a hard sell for them. Wouldn't be surprised to see some racism bubbling away behind closed doors, but it's not something they would try to build a platform on. I don't recall any racism related scandals with them.
They've had some with local council scandals but nothing as far as I remember involving top level LDs

Labour has some issues with racism, from both the working class and middle/upper class elements. Tends to make the news more because they've generally taken the party line of being pro-multiculturalism, so allowing racists to run around is hypocritical.

Quote from: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/23/unprecedented-leak-exposes-inner-workings-of-uk-labour-party
False allegations

The files obtained by Al Jazeera contain Labour’s disciplinary records from 1998 to 2021 and document their handling by the GLU. They show how some supporters of Corbyn were smeared with false accusations of abusive behaviour submitted to the GLU, including homophobia and anti-Semitism, with the stated intention to suspend or expel them from the party.
Quote from: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/29/documents-reveal-discrimination-and-racism-in-uk-labour-party
Al Jazeera’s Investigative Unit (I-Unit) reveals how a British political party that claims to embrace progressive values created a hierarchy of racism that discriminated against its Black, Asian and Muslim members. Interviews, internal documents and social media messages shared by the most senior staff in The United Kingdom’s Labour Party betrayed a racist culture where abuse was aimed at their own colleagues, councillors and political leaders.

The Labour Files, an I-Unit investigation based on 500 gigabytes of documents, emails, video and audio files from the Labour Party dating from 1998 to 2021, exposes how the party’s campaign to present a tough image on anti-Semitism, while ignoring other forms of discrimination, drove many staff to resign.
The full documentary's worth a watch over an idle lunch. But the reason why the conservatives got away with Boris's casual racism but Corbyn couldn't survive an internal party investigation was that his own party was delaying their own investigation in the hopes it would kill Corbyn's career by paralyzing his ability to do anything about the allegations



tl;dr
stop celebrating firsts for firsts sakes. Celebrate leaders who actually make things better
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 25, 2022, 10:06:44 pm
I'm impressed at your ability to quote me instead of Grim Portent in the discussion of Britain's political parties....
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 25, 2022, 10:33:17 pm
It’s not as impressive as your inability to note that Grim Portent was quoted :p
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 25, 2022, 10:39:12 pm
It’s not as impressive as your inability to note that Grim Portent was quoted :p
Your inability to misunderstand me is...not very impressive.
There is one quote correctly attributed to Grim Portent.  The two quotes afterwards are attributed to me instead of Grim Portent.

Ideally, Lord Whisper will fix the quotes, and I'll look like a loon, and all will be right in the world...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 25, 2022, 10:59:34 pm
Aaaaay I disappoint everyone why should you be any different.

Misquoting isn’t that big a deal though surely? You’ve not been quoted as a raving Nazi or nuffin’.

We need less Right in the world anyhow.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on October 25, 2022, 11:30:01 pm
It's kinda funny that an American was quoted as knowledgeable about British politics.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 27, 2022, 02:09:21 am
Looks like NI is heading toward more elections (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-63403379) if the DUP continue their hissy fit over the NI Protocol aspect of Brexit.

Sinn Fein won the last election, for the first time ever, so it should be interesting to see how it turns out, assuming the executive doesn’t meet and sort itself out tomorrow, the last day before the deadline for actually putting it together.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 27, 2022, 05:12:59 am
It's kinda funny that an American was quoted as knowledgeable about British politics.
Oh yeah I must've formatted sommething wrong when copy-pasting quote bb codes

*EDIT
Quote from: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/10/27/rishi-sunak-minority-class-plutocrats-diversity
“Diversity” is a meaningless term unless it heralds real change. Even Mahatma Gandhi noted that his patriotism did not mean people could “be crushed under the heel of Indian princes, if only the English retire”. Sunak is very much a British Indian prince, not just privately educated and extremely wealthy but an ideologically committed activist for the riches and privileges of Britain’s small oligarch class to be bolstered at the expense of the many.
Took the words out of my mouth
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on November 01, 2022, 10:08:39 am
Our current Women's minister is claiming that protestors outside abortion clinics might be trying to comfort women getting abortions.

So there we have it, we can protest without the government arresting us now because it's not a protest, it's a comforting.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 01, 2022, 10:48:40 am
It's good to know, though, that the Conservatives will actually suspend MPs for much more terrible behaviour (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63471923)...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 01, 2022, 11:51:46 am
They call him Hancock cos he's got his cock in his hand!!!
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on November 02, 2022, 12:00:57 am
I prefer to call him Matt Handjob at this point.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on November 02, 2022, 07:45:49 am
Please, call me Jackoff. Mr Handjob was my father
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 02, 2022, 09:13:40 am
Quote from: https://www.ft.com/content/fec7a77f-3dd4-4458-80eb-e740b3a8aa78
For the past couple of weeks, a trial in Dubin has heard the details of a sensational gangland killing in which an AK-47 toting gunman dressed as a police officer and a hitman in drag stormed a boxing weigh-in, killing a member of Ireland's most notorious drug cartel.
lmao what the hell that is amazing
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: JoshuaFH on November 02, 2022, 09:21:16 am
That sounds like the premise to the world's most interesting movie.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 02, 2022, 09:30:35 am
...but that's in Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubin), not the UK, so really the wrong thread for it.

(Or indeed, still the wrong thread if it is a simple typo. Unless it actually also meant Blackpool.)



And, hey, Cock-and-balls (bad edit: meant to say "...never mind CaB, the PM...") is going to COP27, after all. (Because the prior genitalia-euphemism decided to accept his invitation, perhaps?) Oh what fun...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on November 02, 2022, 04:27:50 pm
It's good to know, though, that the Conservatives will actually suspend MPs for much more terrible behaviour (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63471923)...

He probably figured his future was more promising on the reality TV show. And getting kicked out of the Conservative party is not the punishment it used to be...

Anyone else read the part where he keeps being a MP and collects a MP's salary?

Also: You Brits have a guy named Ed Balls. envious
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 02, 2022, 04:32:05 pm
Nadine Dorries was on it a few years ago and she is/was a government minister afterward.

Though the best one was George Galloway on Big Brother, if only for the quote:

Now would you like me… to be the cat? (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EUqlzqA7T_A)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 04, 2022, 11:36:59 am
Nadine Dorries was on it a few years ago and she is/was a government minister afterward.

Though the best one was George Galloway on Big Brother, if only for the quote:

Now would you like me… to be the cat? (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EUqlzqA7T_A)
I could've gone a lifetime without having to see that again

Also: You Brits have a guy named Ed Balls. envious
Not as Ballsy as you'd expect him to be
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 06, 2022, 09:20:20 am
Labour to merge with the Tories when? (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63526167)

Or: Labour: Not much of an alternative.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on November 06, 2022, 09:47:29 am
Labour isn't that much of an alternative, that's true, but usually not for going against to the neo-liberal status quo.

The solution to healthcare worker shortage can only be to pay them more so that more domestic citizens will choose that line of work; relying on work migration because it's cheaper only creates a downwards spiral that's detrimental both to your own country and those that you recruit from (did you know that Poland is enduring a healthcare worker crisis too? It's because too many of their own workers get employment abroad).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 06, 2022, 10:49:01 am
Labour to merge with the Tories when? (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63526167)

Or: Labour: Not much of an alternative.

The difference is that Labour tends to (caveats apply!) want to solve the issue by getting more people working, not just blocking those 'undesirables' who could work and hoping for the best despite not making up the numbers in any meaningful way. In fact, discouraging the existing workforce and driving them to quit.

Short-termism strikes both (all!) parties, but it seems that we're seeing so much kneejerk populism (and not even carried through properly) from the Tories that while it appears they have enough functional backbone to support L2-4 reflexes, they're clearly missing whole thoracic segments that should have made their higher centres aware of the repeated pattellic concussions going on.


It's slightly unfair, of course, as only the Tories are in a position to do (or not do... "...there is no try!") anything in (undevolved areas of) government. Labour can hope that it can snipe tactically enough to either scare them into going the positive way they want or else to run blindly off a cliff (hopefully without keeping hold of the rope by which they're dragging the rest of us) and then step in. ((Unfortunately, these strategies can be mutually exclusive, or certainly hard to mesh together at the same time, and fans of either see any attempt to do the other to be a cop-out).


Devolved-wise, where the MSPs, AMs and (when they're capabable of playing nice with each other!) MLAs have any say, they are perhaps trying the alternative. Sometimes hamstrung by having one hand being tied behind their back (with a confusingly mixed medical-metaphor!), sometimes not competently enacted... But it's more than Kier can do, currently. Whatever he says must be calculated (correctly or not) only for how it changes other people's minds, whereas if there's any serious thinking in the other quarter(s) with actual hands on the levers of power then you'd hope that it was an actual attempt (however misguided) to operate the machine of state for the better, or at least not an actual attempt to make it shake apart under the strain.

It's a pity that the SNP and Labour have directions of travel that are slightly too divergent to be considered the same direction. Actually, it's a pity that grassroots support/opposition dwells so much on the non-social aspects of their politics (either as part of their raison d'etre or as an uncomfortable counter-factuality to the 'true spirit' of the respective cause, depending upon who is talking about who). But that's part of the problem with lumping sort-of-allies together into parties ("Labour And Co-operative", "Conservative And Unionist") or being effectively formed around a single hot-topic issue. But don't ask me how I'd reliably stop that.

...excuse me, I'm drifting into a flight of fancy (snipped some paragraphs, perhaps should have snipped some of that immediately above). And none of this is intended as apologisim/excoriation, though you can tell I remain unhappy with a certain party and would be interested to see almost anything other than them at the topmost level. I mean, it's not as if we're guaranteed stability as it is, so I'm uncharacteristically a little enamoured of the idea of just flipping the card table over and seeing what cards get dealt when the mess is cleared up and entirely new hands are put in front of us. Even if it's a completely new game that I barely know the rules of.


Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 07, 2022, 10:22:44 am
Labour to merge with the Tories when? (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63526167)

Or: Labour: Not much of an alternative.
I agree with the statement that Labour is not much of an alternative to the Tories but I also agree with Keir Starner here; at least in the general sense that the UK relying on overseas nurses and doctors instead of being supplemented by overseas nurses and doctors is a situation which screws everyone over and is unsustainable. I disagree with the notion that we are not training enough nurses and doctors in the UK though (it's true but not the full picture), the real problem is just working conditions and money, which is deterring new people from entering and existing people from staying in both UK and overseas categories. What we're seeing currently is not just UK-trained UK citizens moving abroad to work in overseas hospitals rather than the NHS, but even people who have flown in from overseas are leaving the NHS and leaving the UK to work in other popular foreign destinations like Saudi Arabia or the gulf states, where visas for skilled workers are easier to obtain and salaries are considerably higher. The NHS has long persisted in a state where no one can work these long hours whilst also losing money everyday. It has only managed to persist for so long because medical staff tend to be people who only care to work in medicine, but the rate of medic burnout, suicide and industry leaving cannot be ignored

Interesting graph with the numbers (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61230287) showing that the UK is not just struggling to make a convincing case to UK med grads that the NHS is worthwhile. It's struggling to make the case to anyone that a medical career is worthwhile. It's also probably worse than the numbers suggest, since nurses and doctors renewing their contracts tend to get bundled under "recruitment" statistics even though they are clearly not new staff being recruited and the 110,000 unfilled posts did not appear from nothing
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2022, 03:31:59 pm
Novel Idea: Have you tried giving them more money?
Blasphemy!

It's a common issue these days, in many fields, especially among professionals.  It's just more tragic when it hits the health system.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on November 07, 2022, 03:46:01 pm
From the family members (nurses and a lab technician) I have who work for the NHS, I'd say the conditions are way more important than the money. Being understaffed causes so much stress because of the extra workload that isn't getting done. Less time being run ragged would be much better than more money.

Granted I'm Scottish, our NHS wages are a little higher, so it might be more of an issue for English NHS employees, especially in areas with a high cost of living.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on November 07, 2022, 04:04:34 pm
Well, giving more money could mean giving more money to the NHS to hire more people, or giving more money to make working for the NHS more attractive.
You are after all complaining about poor staffing.  The solution is mainly going to be money either way.

Then again, Nursing in America has been relatively competitive past the Aide tier (entry minimum wage level), and staffing is chronically short.

It would probably help to treat the health system less like a factory and more like a health system.  But there are more people who have successfully managed factories than hospitals, so...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on November 07, 2022, 04:24:41 pm
A lot of the problems do stem from budget cuts, or the failure to expand budgets to meet need, but a big chunk of it is down to the gutting of the civil service under Thatcher and the failure to restore it afterwards, instead chasing stupid ideas related to imitating business practices.

We had the world's best healthcare, no other nation brought such comprehensive care to so many of it's people at such low cost. Then some twats whinged about the cost and ask if we can cut corners somewhere, and rather than doing the right thing, which would have been laughing at them, slapping them with a wet haddock* and throwing them in the nearest river, we gave them political office.

Healthcare is like roads, education, police and fire departments. It's expensive to do it right, but it's an investment in creating a healthy, happy, stable society.


*On a side note, I'd actually like to see some public corporal punishment make a return for things like fraud or corporate level pollution, or MPs claiming fake expenses. Stick a disgraced MP in a pillory or some stocks for 9 hours a day for a week and provide throwable sized rancid fish to the general public and I'd damn well bet you'd see less corruption from them in future. Barbaric? Medieval? Perhaps, but so is prison when you get down to it.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on November 07, 2022, 04:45:56 pm
...

*On a side note, I'd actually like to see some public corporal punishment make a return for things like fraud or corporate level pollution, or MPs claiming fake expenses. Stick a disgraced MP in a pillory or some stocks for 9 hours a day for a week and provide throwable sized rancid fish to the general public and I'd damn well bet you'd see less corruption from them in future. Barbaric? Medieval? Perhaps, but so is prison when you get down to it.
Yes... When I heard what Japanese prisons are like (Carlos Ghosn was that Nissan exec who fled Japan to avoid their prisons), I thought, "we need better prisons for poor people and worse prisons for wealthier people". While I like the rancid fish option, too many people would consider it an opportunity to bring large frozen rancid fish.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on November 07, 2022, 09:16:40 pm
What happens when you drain a country country of 40% of their health care workers (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/lebanons-healthcare-brink-collapse-amid-crisis-says-minister-2022-01-20/) and and you develop a sudden case of cholera epidemic (https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/10/19/lebanon-warns-deadly-cholera-outbreak-spreading-rapidly)?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 08, 2022, 11:26:42 am
Novel Idea: Have you tried giving them more money?
Blasphemy!

It's a common issue these days, in many fields, especially among professionals.  It's just more tragic when it hits the health system.
This is literally the cheapest and best solution that the government refuses to acknowledge

From the family members (nurses and a lab technician) I have who work for the NHS, I'd say the conditions are way more important than the money. Being understaffed causes so much stress because of the extra workload that isn't getting done. Less time being run ragged would be much better than more money.

Granted I'm Scottish, our NHS wages are a little higher, so it might be more of an issue for English NHS employees, especially in areas with a high cost of living.
It's apocalyptic in London where some of my nurse colleagues from abroad are struggling because London weighting allowance is already included in their shite salaries, and the cost of living is outpacing their savings, already a third of the Phillipines staff have gone back to the Phillipines because it's economically unviable here. But the two are basically intertwined. No money means staffing shortages which means people are doing multiple jobs whilst their salaries get cut. So you get a positive feedback loop of things get worse for whoever stays, so more people are pushed out, things get worse, more cuts get made ad infinitum. As you say we've gone from world class healthcare to some of the worst access in Europe because the Tories wanted to pursue the American model with results being exactly as you'd expect
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on November 09, 2022, 02:03:11 pm
Stepping up the "Protesting is EVIL!" rhetoric, Suella Braverman called blocking the M25 a "Threat to our way of life"

It's like a fucking parody, except the home secretary is actually saying it which is absolutely mental.

Should be noted that the police have arrested journalists trying to cover the protests (An LBC journalist claimed the police, when they realised they'd arrested someone who legally could be there, threw her in jail on trumped up conspiracy to commit a crime grounds), and they've been arresting people nearby on the basis they might be thinking of joining. People on a nearby bridge who were filming it on their phones wound up arrested.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 09, 2022, 02:09:15 pm
Our current way of life is in need of improvement, so I don't want the status quo to feel too safe about keeping things flawed :|
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 09, 2022, 02:14:16 pm
How is she still in position anyway? She resigned for Truss because she made a very stupid mistake (did it break the ministerial code? Has Sunak even replaced the standards person?) and is now spouting some proper right-wing nonsense like referring to asylum seekers and probably victims of trafficking as an invasion or all this shite about not allowing people to protest if they get in other people’s way which is already covered by other laws.

Madness!

Also another minister resigned because he’s a big bully.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on November 09, 2022, 02:15:36 pm
Our current way of life is in need of improvement, so I don't want the status quo to feel too safe about keeping things flawed :|

Ha, y'ain't wrong.
What worries me is that successive home secs have been authoritarian in the extreme, and our "policing by consent" method seems to be getting eroded as a result and turning more into an American style "policing by force". I don't remember seeing so many stories about police doing shit like arresting journalists for simply trying to be journalists.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 09, 2022, 02:46:10 pm
Cruella is also berating the police for not acting against the protests (despite the above, and a police motorcyclist having actually been injured for his part in maintaining public safety) so she's voing down the same lines as other notable Ministers, not making many friends in the blue-light services either...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on November 09, 2022, 03:37:19 pm
Cruella is also berating the police for not acting against the protests (despite the above, and a police motorcyclist having actually been injured for his part in maintaining public safety) so she's voing down the same lines as other notable Ministers, not making many friends in the blue-light services either...
That is quite stupid.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 10, 2022, 02:29:47 am
My take:

- the real problem is that HCWs have been fucked worldwide, as a result of policies that might seem only national but are actually a consequence of managers and politicians copying each other.

- core to those policies has been a drive to run healthcare companies as tech companies, either by privatizing them outright, or by getting managers with that cultural mindset (the latter is specially true of the UK and Ireland). As a consequence of this they usually start to "streamline" processes, remove 'redundant' hcw posts to cut costs (which dont actually come down cause number of managers keeps growing)

- on a more global level, very often you hear politicians talk about solving hcw shortages by increasing training posts. Two big problems with this: first (at best) the results will take years to be seen. Second: a more fundamental problem is that healthcare professions (probably technical professions in general) have become very unattractive (and the longer the less attractive) because there's little substantial payoff for the effort.

- restricting hcw movement (either foreigners or the often touted solution by populist pundits of forcing your own to do mandatory service) makes it even less attractive, pretty much ignores how healthcare systems work (you *do* want people moving around)

- just paying more money is not an immediate solution but its a start. Back home you often hear doctors in labor protests say "its not about the money". They are honest FWIW but they are also wrong: they might want respect and better working conditions rather than more money, but they won't get either of the former without the latter. The reason is because low wages has created the illusion in management that specialist physicians are as replaceable as Fast Food clerks (this illusion has not helped management to do a good job either)


Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 10, 2022, 02:39:04 am
Also: as a followup to one of the bits above: healthcare cannot be streamlined for the same reason fire departments cant be streamlined: you need redundancy to deal with emerging situations. And yes, this does mean that at any given point you should have X number of nurses, doctors, lab scientists... doing continued medical education, discussing stuff with colleagues, or just standing around, for the same reason you keep firemen on the payroll even if they are not actively putting out fires at any given time: you need them available if something does happen
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 10, 2022, 04:14:18 am
Indeed, empty beds (etc) aren't a failure of planning, but a necessity of it. Too much reliance on average use-rates fails to understand the need to deal with surges, and when someone officious considers the dips in use a 'waste of resources'...

Very rarely do we seem to have non-negative free beds publically reported, for some very obvious reasons, but there's almost always evidence of the buffers being hit or even grossly over-run.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on November 12, 2022, 06:13:06 pm
I'm reminded of the Ventilator crisis at the beginning of COVID.

The real concern is how one keeps a politician/manager from balancing their budget and making themselves look good by cutting such "needless expenses" in the future.
It mostly comes down to Restricted Funds. Tell them they can't touch that part of the budget without greater oversight. That usually has them shrug their shoulders and Not Bother.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 12, 2022, 06:19:57 pm
The ventilator crisis was an even bigger  farce. Every country scrambling for ventilators (and driving the prices through the roof) when the real bottleneck was ICU staff.

Btw when I mentioned the UK and Ireland have been hit particularily hard by these "optimizers"... one number that comes to mind is how  low the number of icu beds per capita is in both countries compared to the European median
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on November 13, 2022, 03:35:51 pm
The ventilator crisis was an even bigger  farce. Every country scrambling for ventilators (and driving the prices through the roof) when the real bottleneck was ICU staff.

Btw when I mentioned the UK and Ireland have been hit particularily hard by these "optimizers"... one number that comes to mind is how  low the number of icu beds per capita is in both countries compared to the European median
There's no profit in driving up the price of ICU staff...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: dragdeler on November 14, 2022, 10:59:27 am
Not only was it the wrong thread but now I'm subscribed too -.-
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 14, 2022, 11:15:14 am
Besides the "yucky" factor, any reason not to buy a meta quest 2? The price doesn't make sense it's like mark is acting like a total zuckerdaddy because he wants his metaverse so bad...

Has anybody a concrete TECHNICAL reason not to get one?
I'd be scared of any facebook datamining, intrusive ads, and in addition I need a reason to buy something rather than reasons not to buy something

Also: as a followup to one of the bits above: healthcare cannot be streamlined for the same reason fire departments cant be streamlined: you need redundancy to deal with emerging situations. And yes, this does mean that at any given point you should have X number of nurses, doctors, lab scientists... doing continued medical education, discussing stuff with colleagues, or just standing around, for the same reason you keep firemen on the payroll even if they are not actively putting out fires at any given time: you need them available if something does happen
I remember when the 7/7 bombings happened and some of my fam and friends were called to standby in case their medical skills were needed. In the end there were so many of them on standby that not all were called upon in the end, as they had met all their staffing needs. Meanwhile manchest stadium bombing and loads of people died because they didn't even have enough people to do triage

Also agree with all your points. Sickened me to my stomach sitting through finance meetings where all the healthcare workers are treated as low productivity low skilled workers because low paid = low skill low productivity. Like you absolute numbnuts have you not learned anything from Covid essential workers saga? No? They never learn. Self-serving ouroboros of "you are trash because I treat you like trash and payments will decrease until morale has improved" followed by "wait why is everyone leaving?"
I shit you not of all the ground level staff who actually keep everything alive, 100% of them are from West African, Afro-Caribbean or ASEAN backgrounds. Of the management and directors 80% are white British or 20% Indian. Three of the Philipino staff and the one Romanian have already quit because of how low the pay is. One of them joined for 5 months and left because it was just that awful. That's why I think it's ridiculous that the Tory and Labour party are arguing over staff training or immigration when neither addresses the fact that working in healthcare is not viable for anyone
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 14, 2022, 11:40:20 am
Not only was it the wrong thread but now I'm subscribed too -.-
... one of us... one of us...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on November 14, 2022, 11:51:42 am
I wish there was a way to unsubscribe from threads. There are those eternal threads with 10,000-100,000 replies I posted in on a whim like 5 years ago and have clogged up my New Replies screen ever since.



On the topic of UK politics: it's appalling how the BBC just totally repeat whatever framing the Conservative party have, about immigration etc. Having been in power for over a decade, the Tories can't blame the last government for whatever mistake, so they've invented this 'fiscal blackhole' for people to worry about and talked a lot about stopping Albanians from coming on small boats... instead of addressing the actual needs of people (like housing, cost of living etc.).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 14, 2022, 12:18:37 pm
Apparently that fiscal black hole can disappear by doing something like changing the way you process the data (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63573989), rather than EVERYONE PAY MORE TAXES AND CUT CUT CUT THE SPENDING.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Ziusudra on November 14, 2022, 03:45:13 pm
I wish there was a way to unsubscribe from threads. There are those eternal threads with 10,000-100,000 replies I posted in on a whim like 5 years ago and have clogged up my New Replies screen ever since.
Check out the notifications page (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=notification;u=19424) on your profile.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on November 14, 2022, 04:42:15 pm
I wish there was a way to unsubscribe from threads. There are those eternal threads with 10,000-100,000 replies I posted in on a whim like 5 years ago and have clogged up my New Replies screen ever since.
Check out the notifications page (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=notification;u=19424) on your profile.
I don't use notifications at all (should I?)— I just click Show New Replies To Your Posts.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on November 16, 2022, 08:51:20 pm
I wish there was a way to unsubscribe from threads. There are those eternal threads with 10,000-100,000 replies I posted in on a whim like 5 years ago and have clogged up my New Replies screen ever since.
Check out the notifications page (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=notification;u=19424) on your profile.
I don't use notifications at all (should I?)— I just click Show New Replies To Your Posts.
You have to post in Robot Mode in order to unsubscribe.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 19, 2022, 09:23:08 am
(Rishi's gone to visit Volodymyr... maybe he's needing to distract from bad news dogging him at home, just like Boris? Ok, so Liz never went there (I think), but then she didn't do much of that sort of thing at all - even with fellow UK leaderships.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on November 19, 2022, 12:31:36 pm
Any action Rishi takes in the UK will cause someone to hate him. Even the goodwill political-solution of throwing money at families/kids will be attacked because the financial crisis is making people callous to others. So, he goes to Ukraine where the audience will remain outwardly polite if he only offers words.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on November 19, 2022, 03:14:06 pm
...Throwing money at people in crisises is not goodwill (especially when it's money thag will be directly rerouted towards your capitalist friends). It's a very bread and circus way to appease angry people so you don't have to acknowledge the systematic failures that had put them in financial peril to begin with, let alone change the system to be better to people.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on November 20, 2022, 02:46:08 pm
Yeah, I should have double-quoted the word "goodwill" that statement.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 21, 2022, 07:18:20 am
Any action Rishi takes in the UK will cause someone to hate him. Even the goodwill political-solution of throwing money at families/kids will be attacked because the financial crisis is making people callous to others. So, he goes to Ukraine where the audience will remain outwardly polite if he only offers words.
Obviously any action will cause someone to hate him, but there are actions he can take to make himself beloved to the public, e.g. price caps on gas would piss off a bunch of oil executives but who cares? Unfortunately, Rishi cares more about money than he does people, the moment he said he and his wife "pay as much tax as they are legally required" was the moment I knew he would just be another Tory looter

(Rishi's gone to visit Volodymyr... maybe he's needing to distract from bad news dogging him at home, just like Boris? Ok, so Liz never went there (I think), but then she didn't do much of that sort of thing at all - even with fellow UK leaderships.)
Liz Truss was very pro-Ukraine, probably even moreso than Boris. Whether or not Rishi's done it for image, it was fairly necessary for him to go just to reassure the Ukrainians that the UK's comedy leadership roulette wouldn't jeopardise UK support to Ukraine, which has been vital since 2012 to ongoing military development

Also just the fact that Vladimir's rival is a man called Volodymyr is priceless
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 21, 2022, 10:59:01 am
(Rishi's gone to visit Volodymyr... maybe he's needing to distract from bad news dogging him at home, just like Boris? Ok, so Liz never went there (I think), but then she didn't do much of that sort of thing at all - even with fellow UK leaderships.)
Liz Truss was very pro-Ukraine, probably even moreso than Boris. Whether or not Rishi's done it for image, it was fairly necessary for him to go just to reassure the Ukrainians that the UK's comedy leadership roulette wouldn't jeopardise UK support to Ukraine, which has been vital since 2012 to ongoing military development
Oh, I think it's something I definitely support (providing support, in person or otherwise), but the mirroring was too obvious not to mention. And while Truss even effectively went "yeah, ex-British Army guys, you should definitely go and sign up in Ukraine... have you got a packed lunch?", it was just that her shortest (non-deputising, leaving alive) premiership seemed to have very little time even for calling Scotland or Wales on the phone, and definitely didn't get to follow her lads over there...

Quote
Also just the fact that Vladimir's rival is a man called Volodymyr is priceless
In the early days (perhaps even in slightly before, when everyone was still wondering whether the massing Russians/Belorussians might even take that final step forward) there was a memorable inteview with a Kiev ("Keev!") resident where the obviously mainly-Russia-based newsman introduced a random talking-head they'd found on the street as Valadimir and was politely corrected.

I'm no linguist (a monoglot am I!) but I've occasionally started to think I get an inkling of the basic vowel-shift between Russian and Ukrainian (and other related differences, like Dnipr/Dnipro) such that I might vainly imagine that I could recognise which sort of person I'm listening to, as with Kiwis vs. Aussies but with slightly less unintelligable language. ;)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on November 23, 2022, 07:42:23 pm
Whatever happened to Liz Truss after being removed from office? Is she still even in politics?

lol
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: bloop_bleep on November 23, 2022, 08:50:58 pm
Volodymyr and Vladimir are both descendants of the Viking name Waldemar from the time of Kyivan Rus'.

Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 23, 2022, 09:25:55 pm
Whatever happened to Liz Truss after being removed from office? Is she still even in politics?

lol
Continuing as a backbencher. I don't recall much of her piping up as one, yet (unlike May, for example, but like Johnson as a contrary example) but I think once-bitten, etc..
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on November 24, 2022, 10:50:32 am
Volodymyr and Vladimir are both descendants of the Viking name Waldemar from the time of Kyivan Rus'.

No, that's the other way around: Valdemar is considered a Swedish cognate of Vlaolodyimiyr (the unbiased version :P ) that spread back to Scandinavia through the Rowmen*/ur-Rus. As far as I know at least. While it technically could be construed as as having meaning in Swedish in that it could be separated into words that mean things, Valdemar doesn't fit into any of the known naming patterns/construction words of Scandinavian people, while if we look at Vladimir/Volodomyr at least -Mir is a common slavic name part and I think Vlad- also occurs in other names, but I can't think of any one at the moment.

* The originate of the word Rus is believed to be Roslagen, the archipelago outside the coast of Sweland (the tribal lands of the Swes, not Sweden), which is believes to mean "the Rowing Lands" or something luke that
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 24, 2022, 11:10:25 am
>Vlad the implyer
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on November 24, 2022, 11:15:42 am
Bonus fax: the current demonym for the people of Roslagen is Rospiggar, as the folk etymology of Roslagen has changed the "Ros" part from being construed from Ro ("Row"/"Rowing") to Ros ("Rose"). Rospiggar means "rose thorns" or maybe "rose pricks"
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on December 03, 2022, 01:35:40 pm
(From LGBTQetc thread...)
God save our gracious NHS

No really, please God, save our NHS

Discussions on Any Questions/Any Answers (yesterday and/) today on Radio 4. Not about the above subset of the topic, but a general feeling (and actual accusations to that effect) that the Tories (not unhelped by Blair) are trying to drive it to fail and be fully privatised.

This aint really LGBTQIA++ stuff, though, so cutting this and pasting it in the more correct thread. Right, here we are.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on December 03, 2022, 03:24:17 pm
Of course they are, don’t you know that running things like a business is the best and most efficient way of doing things?

Of course if someone can’t afford a basic human need like healthcare, that’s just their problem. They should get a job.m

But they’re already employed!

Er… they should get a better job.

They don’t have the training or experience!

Well then they should get it then.

They’re already working full-time!

They should’ve been born better then.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on January 16, 2023, 08:27:42 am
New plans to widen police powers for disruptive protests
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64282962

Bill Text:
https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/49143/documents/2653

I think I see some problems in this bill. If it would not be rude of me, I'd like to detail what I (likely incorrectly) am thinking in my ignorance seems to be potentially problematic in a later post if my clumsy intrusion into London politics is not unwelcome, if I may have the allowance and  assistance of the local Brits (though this bill if enacted would only apply in England and Wales) in examining this bill and in helping me to understand things better, as I certainly am not qualified via distance to see or say what goes there.

I also should note I didn't spend any time reading about the predecessor laws that this bill adds onto, or how they have been applied. I simply read about this bill on the bbc, reluctantly brought myself to click on the bill text, and was fascinated by it.

One very important bit I can't figure out: how is serious disruption defined by the Home Secretary? All I could find were various speculations by article writers and even MPs sprinkled through the past months, though I admit I am getting sleepy, and so my search has been short as I am heading off to bed. I haven't used all the possible combinations of search grammar that may yet find a result with more effort. Is there a place the term serious disruption is defined as by the Home Secretary (who was to set the meaning if a few search results were correct)? How this is defined is crucial to interpreting this bill.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 16, 2023, 10:19:40 am
A brief reminder of why we Americans broke off from you lot...

Blocking roads is a commonly accepted protest tactic in the US. Nobody likes it, but the cops generally don't get into a fight over it.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on January 16, 2023, 10:25:50 am
How this is defined is crucial to interpreting this bill.
That's the main problem with this kind of sweeping legislation, it gives a lot of power with vaguely limits. "Serious disruption" can mean whatever is most convenient for the Home Secretary at any given time. Though in theory it could be contested later in the courts, which could set a limit to this.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 16, 2023, 10:27:56 am
How this is defined is crucial to interpreting this bill.
That's the main problem with this kind of sweeping legislation, it gives a lot of power with vaguely limits. "Serious disruption" can mean whatever is most convenient for the Home Secretary at any given time. Though in theory it could be contested later in the courts, which could set a limit to this.
And you can be sure that the vagueness is intentional.

People should protest this bill, while they still can...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on January 16, 2023, 10:54:06 am
This is the government that's trying to ban effective protest across various areas of the public and private sector too, so I don't think they're too hot on this thing known as "Free speech"
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on January 16, 2023, 11:51:06 am
A brief reminder of why we Americans broke off from you lot...

Blocking roads is a commonly accepted protest tactic in the US. Nobody likes it, but the cops generally don't get into a fight over it.
Except that blocking roads is traditionally a French tactic. And often livestock farmers rather than vegans. On that basis alone, I'm not sure why it isn't de facto banned already. At least outside of Scotland. ;)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on January 16, 2023, 01:46:46 pm
Westminster's moving to block the Scottish GRA reform bill.

Congratulations, you just handed the SNP an amazing win and piece of propaganda. Unless that's the point, to try and put pressure on Labour when they come in.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on January 16, 2023, 03:27:52 pm
Funny how they only ignore democracy in Scotland when it suits them.

Where was this when Scotland voted overwhelmingly against Brexit? Oh wait the Tories wanted that.

The Scottish Secretary has said UK ministers would work with the Scottish government if they put forward an amended bill, conveniently ignoring the fact this didn’t just come full formed from the ether. There was months of news reports in it before the vote, a government minister resigned in protest over the legislation, there were days of debate (coupled with protests for and against the legislation outside parliament) before the vote.

If they were worried about it clashing with current law, that was the time to work with the Scottish government, not a month after the legislation was overwhelmingly passed in the Scottish parliament 86 to 39.

Utterly ridiculous.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: GadgetPatch on January 16, 2023, 03:51:01 pm
One nationalism-fueled economic crisis and several replacement PMs deep into the ongoing farce, and I struggle to imagine competent, coherent governance here. Not that I was expecting it. But this is still a bit of a surprise, somehow.

A naive little part of me hopes it's fuel for independence. In a sensible world, maybe threatening the dissolution of the UK would be enough for a vote of no confidence even. One can dream.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Maximum Spin on January 16, 2023, 03:58:29 pm
Except that blocking roads is traditionally a French tactic. And often livestock farmers rather than vegans. On that basis alone, I'm not sure why it isn't de facto banned already. At least outside of Scotland. ;)
I think the reason it's considered acceptable is that it helps save governments money on speedbumps.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 17, 2023, 08:49:23 pm
How this is defined is crucial to interpreting this bill.
That's the main problem with this kind of sweeping legislation, it gives a lot of power with vaguely limits. "Serious disruption" can mean whatever is most convenient for the Home Secretary at any given time. Though in theory it could be contested later in the courts, which could set a limit to this.
Serious disruptions defined by the home secretary, minimum service levels for strikers defined by the business & industrial secretary, we're reaching the point where technically any form of civil obedience is illegal if the government feels like it
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on January 17, 2023, 09:34:07 pm
Which is gonna suck sooner or later, because once you make any outlet illegal then why not go to the most extreme? It makes you feel better, you're more likely to get change, and the punishment's pretty much the same either way.

How long until workers are dragging managers and CEOs out of their houses and beating them to death?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 17, 2023, 09:41:51 pm
Which is gonna suck sooner or later, because once you make any outlet illegal then why not go to the most extreme? It makes you feel better, you're more likely to get change, and the punishment's pretty much the same either way.

How long until workers are dragging managers and CEOs out of their houses and beating them to death?
Attempted murder is punishable by life imprisonment. They might even bring back the Death Penalty. I mean, who's gonna protest it?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on January 17, 2023, 10:48:15 pm
Which is gonna suck sooner or later, because once you make any outlet illegal then why not go to the most extreme? It makes you feel better, you're more likely to get change, and the punishment's pretty much the same either way.

How long until workers are dragging managers and CEOs out of their houses and beating them to death?

Pretty sure one of the (many, many) times Ineos tried to force massive cuts to the workforce wages and benefits some of the strikers set up picket lines around the homes of the managers and executives.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 17, 2023, 11:19:15 pm
The funny thing, of course, is that most protesting tends to be a tad illegal, regardless of the laws. 
It's more about hindering the law-abiding citizen's ability to organize, since the rabble rousers don't much care about getting arrested. God bless 'em.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 18, 2023, 08:03:25 am
I swear to god I'm ready to smash my head against the wall. Got boomer docs non-stop complaining about how junior docs, nurses, teachers et. al need to stop striking because they had it so tough and just need to go get a masters or PhD to get a pay rise. The thought that they had free education and a junior nurse would get paid training and a starting salary equal to >£45k today adjusted for inflation is unable to penetrate their thick pensions, which are again, also unavailable to current gens. But yeah nah just spend another £20-50k and 3-5 years just to get a £2k pay rise that'll help surely
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 18, 2023, 03:54:19 pm
I swear to god I'm ready to smash my head against the wall. Got boomer docs non-stop complaining about how junior docs, nurses, teachers et. al need to stop striking because they had it so tough and just need to go get a masters or PhD to get a pay rise. The thought that they had free education and a junior nurse would get paid training and a starting salary equal to >£45k today adjusted for inflation is unable to penetrate their thick pensions, which are again, also unavailable to current gens. But yeah nah just spend another £20-50k and 3-5 years just to get a £2k pay rise that'll help surely

Yeah, that sucks.
Not much you can do but just ignore 'em as best as you can.
Words certainly aren't going to change their self-interest.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Thorfinn on January 18, 2023, 11:41:04 pm
Which is gonna suck sooner or later, because once you make any outlet illegal then why not go to the most extreme? It makes you feel better, you're more likely to get change, and the punishment's pretty much the same either way.

How long until workers are dragging managers and CEOs out of their houses and beating them to death?
Attempted murder is punishable by life imprisonment. They might even bring back the Death Penalty. I mean, who's gonna protest it?
Like they say, after the first, all the rest are free.

Gonna suck.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Bronimin on January 19, 2023, 08:29:55 am
Westminster's moving to block the Scottish GRA reform bill.

Congratulations, you just handed the SNP an amazing win and piece of propaganda. Unless that's the point, to try and put pressure on Labour when they come in.
It's unsurprising that the labour party almost unanimously abstained on the bill, what with their voter base being split between the classic labour types who've voted labour for generations and the nu labour university-going city elite that state their pronouns when greeting you.

I'm pretty sure the extra police powers to deal with protesters is in response to the truckers protest in canada year, and the climate protestors that have been gluing themselves to roads recently. E: yep, clicked the link, they agree.

Clogging the streets leads to emergency services being unable to respond quickly. Should not be tolerated outside of preapproved demonstrations to keep disruption minimal.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2023, 08:58:17 am
The emergency services are unable to respond quickly due to budget cuts. Not enough emergency workers, and what few are left are on strike. Seems laughable to make it illegal for first responders to disrupt the service that is already a dead man walking
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on January 19, 2023, 11:54:57 am
It's a perfect storm of knock-on problems when part of the problem with ambulances (if not much of it) is because of crews being tied up in whole shifts (and the vehicles themselves across multiple shifts) because they are unable to decant their patients into hospitals. Hospitals are unable to take in patients quickly enough because A&E is full. A&E is full because the wards have no spaces, the wards have no spaces because best efforts to get people back home/onwards to respite is stymied by Social Care deficiences, Social Care is suffering from lack of funding (and was going to get a boost, but that got diverted into the main Health System) because of cuts and lack of progressive investment over a decade or more, those cuts were made by the same people who seem to want to blame any or all of the other links in the chain for the individual failings incurred (depending upon which wind they currently wish to blow with).

That was all lined up (only not all as simple as I just put it) like dominos, already, before Covid and before the Mini-Budget fiasco, but maybe these two issues have nudged the first one before it would have otherwise fallen.


And the problem (as I see it, and I know you have a more insider view) with refurbishing the NHS is that it seems that the NHS is always being messed about with, to deal with today's (or perhaps even yesterday's) little sub-crisis or talking point of arguable contention. Too many administrators? Too few administrators? Not getting patients transfered quickly enough? Too ready to move patients into the next hard-fought space? Too few beds/whatever? Wasting money on unused resources!?!  ...about the only constant seems to be too few (quote/unquote) "actual doctors and nurses" (...radiogists, cardiologists, senior staff, junior staff, whatever the current most headlined perception of need actually is), and I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a porter-shortage.

The likes of cottage hospitals, district nurses and doctors' surgeries with time and ability enough to service their own catchments have gone by-the-by. Pharmacists are being empowered to take on roles that they were kept away from in order to keep the doctors' recepionists from having to work 25 hours a day telling people that they can't give them an appointment until a month next Thursday, or else they should go to A&E (where they might be lucky, on a weekday morning once the overnight glut has finally been dealt with).  I exagerate a little, and having not even been in actual contact with my own doctor's for a decade (I think), but having been in another to hand in someone else's prescriptions requests on a few occasions.

This UK government has only itself to blame (somewhat mitigated by others in at least one of the Nations), building upon its predecessor governments, at the very least back to the '80s when there was "no such thing as Society" and is flailing about trying not to seem the main sticking point in getting out of the mess they are in. (Witness the ministerial statement that they could have saved money with the rail-strikes by paying the fairly demanded increases right at the start. But that, if they had have done, they'd have had to have also done the same with the nurses, teachers, etc. To which I wonder... perhaps save the money, or at the very least future welfare, endangered by those situations too, perhaps..? Mmm...??)


Britain aint actually broken, though. It's out of kilter, definitely, but nothing a full revolution is needed to fix (and that probably wouldn't help) just more common sense and less political dogmatism. And it doesn't help when the front-benches (all sides, and all the various parliaments and assemblies) seem to be trying to look more unpopular than Harry through this or that attitude to life.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2023, 12:31:41 pm
Westminster's moving to block the Scottish GRA reform bill.

Congratulations, you just handed the SNP an amazing win and piece of propaganda. Unless that's the point, to try and put pressure on Labour when they come in.
It's unsurprising that the labour party almost unanimously abstained on the bill, what with their voter base being split between the classic labour types who've voted labour for generations and the nu labour university-going city elite that state their pronouns when greeting you.

I'm pretty sure the extra police powers to deal with protesters is in response to the truckers protest in canada year, and the climate protestors that have been gluing themselves to roads recently. E: yep, clicked the link, they agree.

Clogging the streets leads to emergency services being unable to respond quickly. Should not be tolerated outside of preapproved demonstrations to keep disruption minimal.
Uh, protests are SUPPOSED to be disruptive. Maximally disruptive.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on January 19, 2023, 01:07:34 pm
Westminster's moving to block the Scottish GRA reform bill.

Congratulations, you just handed the SNP an amazing win and piece of propaganda. Unless that's the point, to try and put pressure on Labour when they come in.
It's unsurprising that the labour party almost unanimously abstained on the bill, what with their voter base being split between the classic labour types who've voted labour for generations and the nu labour university-going city elite that state their pronouns when greeting you.

I'm pretty sure the extra police powers to deal with protesters is in response to the truckers protest in canada year, and the climate protestors that have been gluing themselves to roads recently. E: yep, clicked the link, they agree.

Clogging the streets leads to emergency services being unable to respond quickly. Should not be tolerated outside of preapproved demonstrations to keep disruption minimal.
Uh, protests are SUPPOSED to be disruptive. Maximally disruptive.
Protests are supposed to be visible; disruption is a tool that allows that. Having a good relationship with the media does too.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on January 20, 2023, 02:48:55 am
Westminster's moving to block the Scottish GRA reform bill.

Congratulations, you just handed the SNP an amazing win and piece of propaganda. Unless that's the point, to try and put pressure on Labour when they come in.
It's unsurprising that the labour party almost unanimously abstained on the bill, what with their voter base being split between the classic labour types who've voted labour for generations and the nu labour university-going city elite that state their pronouns when greeting you.

I'm pretty sure the extra police powers to deal with protesters is in response to the truckers protest in canada year, and the climate protestors that have been gluing themselves to roads recently. E: yep, clicked the link, they agree.

Clogging the streets leads to emergency services being unable to respond quickly. Should not be tolerated outside of preapproved demonstrations to keep disruption minimal.

This is fair opinion to hold, however have you looked at the punitive measures associated with a "serious disruption" that is so ambigously defined as to be read as "whatever protest the tories/whoever supplants them next election disagree with"? On top of the fines and incarceration, it appears to provide for a registry system for "serious disruption to 2 or more people" similar to that used for sexual offenders in the US (various states differ in statutes but the federal government has a minimum standard that is required to be met to receive federal funding). This runs for a set period, but all of the parts of the court order can be extended upon the request of chiefs of police or other authorities with no set limit to number of extensions. These restrictions include forbidding of movement, electronic monitoring, and the forbidding of communication. In addition the enforcement of such seems to left open to the option of using private contractors rather than government agents, and these private agents can impose maintenence costs (read court ordered fees) upon the subject of the court order particularly in the case of electronic monitoring. Such monitoring is to last between 2 weeks and 1 year (expect the latter to be the common outcome if money is involved) and can again be extended indefinately. In short, there is a profitable industry being created that no doubt will have links to law enforcement as well as political groups.

I made it most of the way through the bill, particularly focussing on the punitive aspects. Probably will post my amateur analysis in the coming days.

There is also a troubling bill in the form of the Online Safety Bill.
https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/49376/documents/2734

This appears to be rushing through parliament, and I may not have time to criticize it properly. I would suggest that it is one of a raft of poorly considered and very broad in impact bills regarding internet regulation that social control interests are pushing to legislators in various countries to pass quickly without considering it's effect on the public beyond talking points crafted in the benefit of social control interests. However I haven't read the bill itself yet.

EDIT: Here is an article on the Online Safety Act

https://www.techdirt.com/2023/01/18/uks-online-safety-bill-gets-ridiculous/
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2023, 12:09:18 pm
Shitty party knows it's going to lose the next election, so they clamp down on democracy. Make sense.

That amount of regulation of protestors just means they'll radicalize.

And I thought things were bad in the US...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 20, 2023, 12:11:01 pm
The case for independence!

I jest. Mostly. Maybe. A little.

Oh hey. Relevant.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on January 21, 2023, 05:03:47 am
Link to bill discussed here
https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/49143/documents/2653


Note: Serious disruption is defined by the Home Secretary but I haven't found where it's actually defined. I've only found speculation by 3rd parties what it exactly means, with speculation that it's whatever protests the Home Secretary doesn't approve of. The definition is crucial for interpretation of this bill. As a sidenote, while I know nothing about her, I must say that the behaviour she has exhibited in a few articles I read in the search for the definition of serious disruption,  the Home Secretary seems to have sincerely made herself out to perhaps be an unpleasant person and one ill suited to make an unbiased determination with such a heavy penalizing effect on it's subjects.

Note3: I believe labor related protests are exempt to some extent from the upper sections of the bill regarding offences, though I would have to restudy them to be certain. I felt I should clarify this, though I did not write anything about those sections.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I started criticizing at section 18. The offences of things such as blocking infrastructure, locking on, and whatever the hell tunnelling is are not the true problems with this bill in my opinion, as those are as valid interests of the state, as is allowing peaceful and effective protests that do not pose a threat to the functioning of society. The true problem is that court orders can be obtained without the commission of criminal offences at the request of chiefs of police and certain parts of the government. My analysis is that this is in order to pre-emptively chill if not retrograde organization and support for protests. In addition, some of the language suggests this is to be used against even "protest related activity" instead of "illegal protest activity". This is especially true for anyone who already would have an order against them, in which such sections as apply to this situation this language appears multiple times, though if I was not incorrect in my reading it can also be applied to orders not requested as part of a criminal offence sentencing. Finally, while I know not whether English law already broadly encompasses this, this bill seems to give authority to private agents of the government to charge subjects of the order maintenence fees, particularly in regards to electronic monitoring. This is a very bad idea that will lead to corruption of the process through the influence of for-profit agents that will certainly have ties to those who impose these orders as such an entity is usually staffed if not owned by those retired from or otherwise affiliated with law enforcement (due to their familiarity with such matters), while chiefs of police are able to request to the appropriate courts noncriminal orders as well as request extensions to existing orders with seemingly no limit to the number of extensions possible. This is simply the nature of things, and this bill does not contain language that satisfies me that it will not be the result.

Note4: Not every listed subsection is a complaint; some are simply listed to largely maintain the structure of the bill though my listing assuredly is quite imperfect. I bolded areas of particular concern for TLDR reasons.

Section 18 Injunctions in Secretary of State proceedings: power of arrest and remand
(1) This section applies to proceedings brought by the Secretary of State under
section 17 (power of Secretary of State to bring proceedings).
(2) If the court grants an injunction which prohibits conduct which—
(a) is capable of causing nuisance or annoyance to a person, or
30(b) is capable of having a serious adverse effect on public safety,
it may, if subsection (3) applies, attach a power of arrest to any provision of
the injunction.
(3) This subsection applies if the Secretary of State applies to the court to attach
the power of arrest and the court thinks that—
35(a) the conduct mentioned in subsection (2) consists of or includes the
use or threatened use of violence, or

***(b) there is a significant risk of harm to—
(i) in the case of conduct mentioned in subsection (2)(a), the person
mentioned in that provision, and
40(ii) in the case of conduct mentioned in subsection (2)(b), the public
or a section of the public.


(4) Where a power of arrest is attached to any provision of an injunction under
subsection (2), a constable may arrest without warrant a person whom the
constable has reasonable cause for suspecting to be in breach of that provision.

***18(12) (12) In this section—
“harm” includes serious ill-treatment or abuse (whether physical or not);

This is a very broad definition of harm that would easily include saying mean but legal things, unless this is further defined in extant law.

Section 19 Serious disruption prevention order made on conviction
is somwhat bad:

3(a)(iii) and (v) are troubling, especially (v) due to the serious disruption to 2 or more people bit:
(v) caused or contributed to the carrying out by any other person
of activities related to a protest that resulted in, or were likely
to result in, serious disruption to two or more individuals, or
to an organisation, in England and Wales, and

Use of the word or in (3)(a) which says essentially "any of the above" rather than "these in conjunction" by using the word and; also if it is to be "any of the above" there should probably should be distinguihment of severity, as the word choice of or without distinguishment of severity is causing "any of the above" to be the same level of severity. As this is a punitive measure in this section applied at sentencing of an offence, it would be better served by the distinguishing of levels of severity.

5(b) and (d) both utilize the problematic "serious disruption"; while use of the subjective standard is visible in (iii), "egregious" being the word in question, unless that is clearly defined in law.

7 makes me wonder if it is considered punitive or if it is some sort of administrative function under the law/precedent or if that distinction is not necessary in English courts

9 see 7 above, if there is a distinction in English courts is this allowed in the correct designation of punitive or administrative


Section 20 Serious disruption prevention order made otherwise than on conviction
(1) uses and, so not quite as bad as it looked however in combination with allowing persons listed in (7) to make a complaint to the court by (2)(a)(v) opens up many activities to a request of an order. This opens up applying an order to people who "contributed" to a protest that disrupted 2 or more people within the past 5 years. Assumably "contributed" is defined somewhere, perhaps in extant law. If not it is open to interpretation.

(2) does use or (all of the above)
(iii) (iv) and (v) all are reasons for a complaint to be made without a conviction if two instances of either different protests or different days (section 10 defines multiday protests as only counting as the last day) are held to have occurred in the prior 5 years by (7) and the court is satisfied on the balance of probabilities

(3) (not a problem, just a reminder so I don't mislead) clarifies the period is 5 years and is not retroactive from the bill becoming law, only effective past that point

(4)(b) and (c)(ii) serious disruption to two or more people or organization; (d) also (iii) is seemingly egregious

(d) to protect two or more individuals, or an organisation, in England
and Wales from the risk of serious disruption arising from—
...
(iii) activities related to a protest.

(5) is explaing what an order is
(6) no wingdings or Esperamto

(7) lists who can send a complaint to the court, essentially all police chiefs as defined by a later section but also some specific agencies including
(c) the chief constable of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary
:O no wonder they don't usually choose to carry firearms

(8) defines police chief as chief in subject of the order's residing jurisdiction or in the jurisdiction they are currently in or are planning to travel to

(9) says the court a chief should send the complaint to is a court with jurisdiction for a local justice area that includes any part of the chief's police area
This presumably means they will quite often know each other well. Perhaps it should be an independent board that hears the complaints from section 20. The board's makeup should include representatives from civil liberties organizations or something along those lines as appropriate.
(10) multiday protests only count the last day
(11) time limits under an act from 1980 that I know nothing about don't apply for this. Listing this because I don't know the implications


Section 21 Provisions of serious disruption prevention order
This section reads like it was copied from one of the various US state's sex offender registry statutes

(1) says the only requirements and prohibitions able to be imposed by an order are limited to the purposes of preventing what is listed by 19(5) and 20(4), but those are "serious disruption" subsections and also describe the objective of the sections as being the elimination of "risk of serious disruption" to two or more people or an organization. This will be interpreted as a very stong measure due to the requirement of elimination of even the RISK of serious disruption.
(2)(a) and (b) effectively assign a probation/parole agent, though it does not mandate a state employee. If it does not in a later section or in a seperate law clarify this, it may leave it open to private companies to profit from this law.
(2)(c) enables electronic monitoring. If the operating cost of the monitoring device is charged to the subject and not the state, the doors open wider for profiteering off this. In addition a company could still profiteer even if the state provides funding to operate the electronic monitoring, so the state should provide the funding and operation rather and not charge the subject a fee for being electronically monitored.
(3) reminds there is a section just after this with more on requirements
(4) The prohibitions imposed on a person (“P”) by a serious disruption prevention
order may, in particular, have the effect of prohibiting P from—
(a) being in or entering a particular place or area;
(b) being in or entering a particular place or area between particular times
on particular days;
(c) being in or entering a particular place or area between particular times
on any day;
(d) being with particular persons;
(e) participating in particular activities;
(f) having particular articles with them;
(g) using the internet to facilitate or encourage persons to—
(i) commit a protest-related offence or a protest-related breach of
an injunction, or
(ii) carry out activities related to a protest that result in, or are
likely to result in, serious disruption to two or more
individuals, or to an organisation, in England and Wales.

This seems like common probation conditions however it is not a definitive list as this is the end goal of the order rather than how to achieve them. For example, does (g) when applied in a way to remove the RISK of a serious disruption incur the complete denial of access to the internet? Courts in the states have decided this is untenable in modern society but I don't know how precedent stands in England and Wales.

(6) pertains to this in that it says exceptions to prohibitions may be given; however in the case of the internet one wonders if a court would normally be interested in allowing the extra difficulty of monitoring the subject of the order's internet usage rather than simply banning them from using the internet or computers in general for a period of time.
 
(7) hilariously enough completely overwrites 21(1) and (6) and reaffirms sections 19(6) and 20(5), both of which allow the court to:
(a) requires P to do anything described in the order;
(b) prohibits P from doing anything described in the order.
(8) clarifies that requirements or prohibitions imposed by an order must as far as pacticable avoid conflict with religious beliefs (a) and allow the subject to continue to work or go to education (they will need to pay fines and the electronic monitoring company if it isn't paid for by the government imposing it after all). That's it, the whole list of limits on what can be imposed.

Section 22 Requirements in serious disruption prevention order
(1) says that any order with a requirement on the subject must have a probation/parole officer without calling it that. There is no clarification here that it must be a government agency. Is it normal practice to have private companies offer supervision services in the UK?
(2) Can be individual or an organization. There are no clarifications here who should qualify.
(3) requires evidence of enforceability of the order from the supervising individual or organization, as to whether they are capable of enforcement of the order.
(4) necessary reminder to judge not to make order impossible to comply with due to conflicting requirements
(5) Interestlingly, subsections (1) to (4) don't apply in relation to the electronic monitoring requirements in section 23. I looked ahead to see why and wow that section looks bad. It makes me think some tories or their homies are purchasing ankle monitoring bracelets somewhere.
(6)(a) sternly informs the person specified in subsection (1) that it is their duty to make necessary arrangements. If that should not be clear enough, it specifies and I quote: (the "relevant requirements")
(b) also promote subject's compliance with relevant requirements
(c) also inform police both if subject has (i) complied with all relevant requirements or (ii) has failed to comply with any relevant requirement. (i) seems unnecessary unless they inquire
(7) which police chief to inform, probably the same one who filed the complaint if it was a non-conviction order
(8) and (9) specify mandatory requirements that require the subject to stay in contact with their supervisor in accordance with other instructions given by them and notify them of any change in subject's home address. Notably there was a section somewhere that depended on whether an order had requirements; I wonder if these mandatory requirements trigger that section as (9) specifies the obligations in (8) are to be treated as requirements imposed on subject by the order.

Section 23 Further provision about electronic monitoring requirements
(1) describes whether court can impose monitoring (2) not with subject absent (from court?) (3) not without approval of any person without whose co-operation is required for electronic monitoring to be practical
(4) can only be imposed if electronic monitoring arrangements are available in the relevant area and possible to arrange
(5) defines relevant areas allowed and forbidden by the order and (b) (i) explicitly says limiting of movement for specified periods at a specific places is allowed (except for religious, employment, or educational reasons due to a section above this I think. In some of the US's worse examples of electronic monitoring nothing but work, grocery and laundromat visits for entire period of monitoring is quite possible)
(6) Order that includes electronic monitoring must specify the person who is responsible for the monitoring. I think this is the part that is severed from 22(5) so that the electronic monitoring can be a different person or organization than the supervision person.
(7) person specified in (6) must meet regulations by statutory instrument by the Secretary of State (no hint what that might be such as an admin code or something, perhaps it doesn't exist yet)

Oooh, we finally get to the big one I think! Here's the subsection that potentially can make some people a whole lot of money off these accursed protesters.

(8) Where a serious disruption prevention order imposes an electronic monitoring
requirement on a person (“P”), P must (among other things)—
(a) submit, as required from time to time by the person specified under
subsection (6), to—
(i) being fitted with, or the installation of, any necessary apparatus,
and the inspection or repair of any apparatus fitted or installed for
the purposes of the monitoring,
(b) not interfere with, or with the working of, any apparatus fitted or
installed for the purposes of the monitoring, and
(c) take any steps required by the person specified under subsection (6)
for the purpose of keeping in working order any apparatus fitted or
installed for the purposes of the monitoring.
These obligations have effect as requirements of the order


The key is the last bit in (c). If a company says subject owes them 15 sterling a day to maintain their government imposed yet privately supplied monitoring device, they now owe that company 15 sterling a day until the anklet is removed by the order, and the government will, one can assume, enforce this in some way at some point, especially as the bill makes such directives as the 15 sterling to the company have effect as a requirement of the order.

(9)(a) and (b) are solid legalese but I think if I translated it correctly that it means the regulatory hoops required to begin a lucrative career as ceo of an enforcement privateer company detailed in 23(7)

Section 24 Notification requirements in serious disruption prevention order
This section lists what is required of subject and the time limits placed on them to notify their local police of various informations such as name, aliases, address etc before facing violation of the order. Notably what sticks out in this subsection  is a lack of detailed process (essentially walk in and give information to a police) and no mention of how the information is stored, perhaps in some sort of registry... there is a later section that details guidance to police chiefs from the Secretary of State so there's that (note after reading the section on Guidance, that section is open to shenanigans and so there is no "at least there's that" there. The other issue is the mandatory reporting window is only 3 days, this is exceptionally short for a reporting requirement, and if we review one of the sections above this we recall that these orders may be issued without the subject present in the court. Does the court send a text to subject? Is there an exception for subject being unaware, or must they prove to some standard in defense they were unwitting violators? It also must be done in person, further exacerbating the issue of the short reporting period, though a silly interpretation is that it does not have to be in a speaking voice or in English. However the in person requirement is a burden, especially with a short 3 day reporting period. A longer period with written submissions dated to a timely mailing should be seriously considered unless a quiet result of the law is to be difficulty for the subject to avoid violating the order on reporting requirements.

25 Duration of serious disruption prevention order
(1) Law not retroactive
(2) order must be between 1 week and 2 years(!) duration
(3) and (4) says the order can be delayed to take effect until after subject is released from state custody, whether incarceration or probation/parole/other supervision
(5) the court order may set durations for requirements or prohibitions that are in addition to or if in conflict presumably override the supervising person's own requirements.

(6) electronic monitoring not to exceed 12 months.
yet the following
(7) Subsection (6) is subject to any variation or renewal of the order under section 28.
Oh. I wonder why they added (6) then if the next subsection completely destroys it as a functional subsection. I checked 28 and it's exactly what you might be expecting by now: the ability to modify, renew, and extend the order at the request of a whole list of colorful characters.

(8) These orders don't stack, a new one overwrites the previous one.
(9) defines custodial sentence as the same as in the Sentencing Code

Section 26 Other information to be included in serious disruption prevention order
Short section, requires order to mention the reason for the order and the penalties imposed for breaching the order. I was confused until I noticed the section after this details the punishments for violating an order. I had thought perhaps it was unnecessary as punishments are listed in the first few sections about punishments for protests of the sort detailed by the bill. My apologies, lots of new punishments!

Section 27 Offences relating to a serious disruption prevention order
(1) order is violated by failing requirements (a) doing prohibitions (b) or knowingly lying to police about information required by the order.
(2) sentence range not to exceed the maximum term for summary offences, a fine, or both

(3) defines maximum term for summary offences:
(a) if the offence is committed before the time when section 281(5) of the
Criminal Justice Act 2003 (alteration of penalties for certain summary
offences: England and Wales) comes into force, six months;
(b) if the offence is committed after that time, 51 weeks.

This seems odd because the law has sections that declare it not retroactive. I don't know why the Criminal Justice Act of 2003 is relevant at all to this bill, unless it somehow hasn't been enacted in 19~ years. Perhaps it's mandated by court decision that all penalties must clarify this to avoid ex post facto (I thought it was Ipso post facto from memory lol) sentencing for old offences from prior to the enactment of the bill.

Section 28 Variation, renewal or discharge of serious disruption prevention order
(1) listed people in (2) can apply to the appropriate court to vary, renew or discharge the order.
(2) List of who may apply to the court
(a) subject of order
(b) The chief of police in the area of residence
(c) chief of police who believes subject is in their jurisdictions, or planning to come there (no time frame requirement in the bill)
(d) the chief who requested the order if they are not (b) or (c)
(e) the chief where the criminal protesting was committed
(f) constables listed in (3)

(3) Constables (3) are
(a) the chief constable of the British Transport Police Force;
(b) the chief constable of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary;
(c) the chief constable of the Ministry of Defence Police.

(4) Covers where the application for this section is made; appropriatel magistrates' court and in if a part of any other case (presumably during a protesting trial) in accordance to rules of court.
(5) court must hear from the person making the application as well as anyone listed in (2) who would like to be heard. This includes subject, but does not mandate their input if they do not wish to be heard. This may be due to being unable to attend or unaware, but perhaps it clarifies what to do in that circumstance later. (coming back to this later in my final edits, I do not recall this being specified)
(6) court may vary, renew or discharge the order as it thinks appropriate subject to sections (7) to (9)
(7) The court may (a) vary to (i) extend duration of the order, (ii) extend the duration of a requirement or prohibition under the order, (iii) or add requirements or prohibitions to the order
(b) completely renew the order but only according to the purposes subsection (8), which appears to say if subject ever plans to protest ever again (not just criminally) due to 28(8)(d)(iii)


(8) The purposes are—
(a) to prevent P from committing a protest-related offence or a
protest-related breach of an injunction,
(b) to prevent P from carrying out activities related to a protest that result
in, or are likely to result in, serious disruption to two or more
individuals, or to an organisation, in England and Wales,
(c) to prevent P from causing or contributing to—
(i) the commission by any other person of a protest-related offence
or a protest-related breach of an injunction, or
(ii) the carrying out by any other person of activities related to a
protest that result in, or are likely to result in, serious
disruption to two or more individuals, or to an organisation,
in England and Wales, or
(d) to protect two or more individuals, or an organisation, in England
and Wales from the risk of serious disruption arising from—
(i) a protest-related offence,
(ii) a protest-related breach of an injunction, or
(iii) activities related to a protest.

(9) Order modification in regards to electronic monitoring cannot extend monitoring by more than 12 months at a time. Due to a lack of restrictions on number of extensions, it seems to be possible the order can  be extended an unlimited number of times. Expect to see 1 year extensions commonplace as that is the maximum term for electronic monitoring.

(10) says the following sections are in regards to extensions of the order in various forms
(11) Subject must be informed of variages or renewels of the order and it's effects.
(12) Section 127 of the Magistrates' Courts Act of 1980 does not apply to a complaint under this section. I do not know what this is without checking.
(13) what courts have jursidiction over order modification or renewel (largely the same as above sections)

Section 29 Appeal against serious disruption prevention order
(1) Orders given in conjunction with a sentencing for an offense are to be appealed as if the order were a sentence passed on subject.
(2) clarifires that orders made otherwise than on conviction subject may appeal to the appropriate court, though it does not clarify here what sort of appeal it is considered, and I don't know English law well enough to say what is the "default". ie whether this is the same process as criminal appeals, which are generally noted worldwide for the weight of limitations imposed on the defendant.
(3) refusals to grant an order under section 20 (order otherwise that on conviction) may be appealed by the complainant (police chiefs generally it seems) to an appropriate court. This gives more bites at the apple in higher courts.
(4) when application under section 28 for an order variance, renew or discharge
(a) person making the request for an order may appeal to the appropriate court
(b) subject of the order may appeal
(c) a person making the request may appeal the above result of (b) if subject is successful in modifying the order (essentially relitigating this and giving another bite at the apple; an extra appeal on the side apparently for requesters of the order once the subject of the order has succeeded in an appeal to a higher court)

(5) more defining of appropriate court that does appear to clarify higher courts are in play for appeals under this section
(6) On appeal to the Crown court, (a) and (b) of this subsection grant the crown court to make necessary, incidental, and consequential orders as appear to be appropriate. While I am not sure exactly of what this entails, it sounds like very wide capabilities and no specific limitations as written unless they are in conflict with other law/court rules/etc.

Section 30 Guidance
Essentially this section details who are to be informed who is to be issued guidance by the Secretary of State. This section is mostly administrative, however there is a chilling subsection in (2)(b):
(b) guidance about identifying persons in respect of whom it may be
appropriate for applications for serious disruption prevention orders
to be made


This utterly corrupts the application of this bill from a judicial remedy to the behaviour in question to being used in a politically influenced campaign against targetted protestors by the Secretary of State (or in practice rather whatever political organization they are a part of and possibly ambitiously ascending the ranks of). Essentially the Secretary of State can issue guidance to people capable of requesting an order and guidance them into going after specific groups/people related to protest, or even the planning/coordination of future protest. This should be obvious in why it is a bad idea, especially with the very loose qualifier of "disturbance to 2 or more people" that the Home Secretary seems not to have defined publically.

Section 31 Guidance: Parliamentary procedure
This section requires guidance to be provided to the House of Paliament. However the guidance goes into effect automatically if within 40 days the parliament does not actively reject it. This should be the other way around: the guidance should fall flat if parliament does not actively approve of it within the specified frame. Is 40 days long enough for parliament to move on this? Then it should be long enough to gain it's affirmative rather than going into effect without it's negative. This is to prevent things from "slipping through" what I'm certain is a very busy parliament.

Section 32 Data from electronic monitoring: code of practice
Lol, this one is kind of funny with pre-emptive immunity. That's usually a bad sign in something like this. See (2)
(1) The Secretary of State must issue a code of practice relating to the processing
of data gathered in the course of electronic monitoring of individuals under
electronic monitoring requirements imposed by serious disruption prevention
orders.
(2) A failure to act in accordance with a code issued under this section does not
of itself make a person liable to any criminal or civil proceedings.


In other words, the bill says (1) must do something but (2) if done against the law (or presumably not done at all) no worries, thereby making this a section devoid of meaning.

Section 33 Interpretation of Part
Definitions of some terms used throughout.

Section 34 Consequential amendments
How other law is to be changed in regards to this bill should it pass. I have no grounding in this other law so I will withold comment, especially as this seems mostly insertion of things that are covered by sections of this bill and how it fits in various codes and whatnot.

Section 35 Extent, commencement and short title
The jurisdictions this bill will effect (Wales and England) and when it comes into effect

SCHEDULE
Sets the ability of courts to remand a subject who has violated an order to state custody (generally not to be more than 8 days before a hearing though reasonable exceptions are listed) and sets bond as a personal recognizance that may be increased under what appear to be reasonable conditions.

As always, please correct me if I am wrong. If it's in regard to a certain (sub)section I wrote about above, please cite which section and subsection it is, thank you. I certainly am not an expert in English law, so if extant law provides definitions for terms that are applicable or in use throughout this bill, I would welcome such information.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on January 21, 2023, 01:50:07 pm
If you want an (8), or similar, to not go part-smiley, then use the [nobbc][/[i][/i]nobbc]-tag or perhaps put an entirely empty [i][/i]-pair (or similar) between the characters, to create a non-breaking non-space interuption and prevent the (8) from being recoded... 8)

...not on-topic, but a helpful hint to anyone who might be encountering this same problem, especially if trying to requote the relevent bits.

(Or just click the "Attachments and other options", below the editing box and tick "Don't use smileys." But, either of the above ways, you can also use actual smileys...  :P)
((...And I'm not entirely sure whether a respondee does or does not need to re-apply the Don't Use Smileys to not revert to chaos any given quoted bits of the original message!))
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on January 21, 2023, 11:55:47 pm
Hmm no doubt I will forget this by the next time it's useful.

Thanks for the info Starver. I can edit the long post to fix the too cool (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/WWE_-_London_6%2B70500_%2833%29.jpg) subsection  8). I'm not sure if I will just yet. Probably. No promises. I'll see if it works on the whole post at once, if I have to do a bunch of smaller ones that might not be the way to go.

Perhaps instead next time I will devise a numerically ordered system of smileys to denote subsections. Section 19.(1).( :D  :) ).(iv)

EDIT: I used the Don't use smileys checkbox. I either failed to copy the nobbc code correctly or halving it between the /i portions and putting it on the start and the end didn't work.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 22, 2023, 07:48:25 am
I started criticizing at section 18. The offences of things such as blocking infrastructure, locking on, and whatever the hell tunnelling is are not the true problems with this bill in my opinion, as those are as valid interests of the state, as is allowing peaceful and effective protests that do not pose a threat to the functioning of society. The true problem is that court orders can be obtained without the commission of criminal offences at the request of chiefs of police and certain parts of the government.
There is a true problem with this part actually, in that blocking infrastructure is already covered by the Highways act (1980). Expanding what is illegal to make it illegal to even have the equipped potential to disrupt infrastructure despite having not done so, to be stopped and searched on the suspicion of potentially being able to disrupt infrastructure and then be arrested as a "preventative" measure, gives the state significant power to imprison whoever they want for potentially disrupting infrastucture without any onus of evidence, to stop an activity that has already been illegal for decades
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on January 22, 2023, 08:28:38 am
EDIT: I used the Don't use smileys checkbox. I either failed to copy the nobbc code correctly or halving it between the /i portions and putting it on the start and the end didn't work.
I tried to be clever (to be clearer) but fouled up, so may have confused you.


In short, use [nobbc]...whatever...[/nobbc] around your stuff you don't want parsing. At least until something breaks the way that far simpler example is handled, in other ways. ;)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 22, 2023, 08:59:18 am
Nadhim Zahawi exposed for being an obvious tax dodger. (https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2023/01/19/zahawi_story/) This is after the inquiry into Rishi Sunak's wife tax dodging has begun. Lord, is there any MP in Westminster who isn't a tax cheat? The Zahawi story is particularly egregious because he threatened investigators, journalists, and even the independent with legal action if they published Zahawi being a tax cheat
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on January 22, 2023, 12:10:17 pm
The only problem with getting any particular person out of their job for being dodgy (as MP, or as Minister/whatever given that they're already an MP/Lord/other-higher-upperer) is that frequently their replacement, successor or even tansitional intermediary (while the whole role is abolished/subsumed/merged/re-split) seems to always end up at least as fallible.

Reporting bias, of course, as anyone perfectly and unimpeachably competent isn't going to have (true) reporting of their pre-emminent and proven suitability for the role. But all political roles do seem to end in failure.

Or quitting in response to someone else's failures (e.g. as Ethics Advisor). But whilst that would seem to make them honourable and suitable candidates to fulfill the role (assuming also no jumping well before anybody realises they could and should be pushed), they've just quit! Meaning anybody who has attained a given position is more likely than not a person who is not the most suited to the role, one say or another.  An extension to the Peter Principle


That all said, even with the likely laser-guided attacks and counter-briefings from their natural enemies (including their own fellows, as well as those who are more party-politically opposed), even after much churning, the current cream of the Conservatives has been found to have a lot more of a sour taste than we should feel comfortable with. And no obvious quick-fix (or even medium-term one).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on January 22, 2023, 12:16:21 pm
Nadhim Zahawi exposed for being an obvious tax dodger. (https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2023/01/19/zahawi_story/) This is after the inquiry into Rishi Sunak's wife tax dodging has begun. Lord, is there any MP in Westminster who isn't a tax cheat? The Zahawi story is particularly egregious because he threatened investigators, journalists, and even the independent with legal action if they published Zahawi being a tax cheat
And, as he learned, it doesn't work if your opponent also has resources.

Still, it should be treated as a form of extortion or blackmail considering it had nothing to go on and was obviously done in the name of intimidation against having the truth spoken. It won't be, and I don't think we even have a law for it, but it should be.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on January 22, 2023, 03:27:21 pm
It’s a wonderful example to set for everyone, the person responsible for the purse strings not paying their taxes, and actively trying to avoid paying them by hiding their income.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: anewaname on January 23, 2023, 12:59:29 am
So about that "public order, no locking on and no tunneling" bill... What if the bill is the way it is, because there was little negotiation or debate between the authors, so they were less critical of how the final result could be misused?

It seems to me that most politicians would dislike and fear this type of protest activity because it is "sacrificial". They cannot use force to coerce you to leave once you are stuck, you didn't run away like someone who has done something wrong, and the cause you are standing for it one they don't want to have an open discussion about. Politicians thrive on people being self-interested above all else, to either accept a payout or to be afraid of being harmed, so the people will ignore actions against sub-groups of the citizens.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 23, 2023, 07:39:30 am
It’s a wonderful example to set for everyone, the person responsible for the purse strings not paying their taxes, and actively trying to avoid paying them by hiding their income.
One of the troubles is HMRC tends to be very happy just settling with a 30% penalty for rich dodgers. Which is a pity, as I can get the logic - it gets more revenue in and it also avoids costly legal battles. However the moral and political consequences of rich people being able to pay out to avoid being thrown in prison for what someone poorer would face for the same action... Two parallel societies become apparent
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on February 04, 2023, 09:55:57 pm
From what little I understand of British Law & Politics vs. American Law & Politics, Libel suits are much more effective in Britain than in America.

In America, threatening to sue someone for publishing something would mostly get only laughter from the the press. But it's a legit threat in the UK.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 04, 2023, 11:38:41 pm
From what little I understand of British Law & Politics vs. American Law & Politics, Libel suits are much more effective in Britain than in America.

In America, threatening to sue someone for publishing something would mostly get only laughter from the the press. But it's a legit threat in the UK.

I dunno about that. A former politician got sued for defamation after calling someone homophobic in a newspaper article, and even though the judge in the case found that she was incorrect in that assertion, she didn’t have to pay damages (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/17/kezia-dugdale-wins-case-against-accusation-of-defamation).

Edit: forgot the reason I came to the thread!

It wasn’t my fault I was utterly incompetent, it was the FUCKING COMMIES (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64527252), says Liz Truss.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 05, 2023, 06:26:26 am
It wasn’t my fault I was utterly incompetent, it was the FUCKING COMMIES (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64527252), says Liz Truss.
How neoliberal do you have to get for hedge fund managers to become the left wing establishment in your eyes
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on February 05, 2023, 09:35:04 am
Ah, I got beaten to it.

I don't know if Truss is actually delusional or she thinks this will make people go "Ah, maybe we should give her another chance"
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 05, 2023, 12:10:26 pm
I don't know if Truss is actually delusional or she thinks this will make people go "Ah, maybe we should give her another chance"
#include WhyNotBoth.meme
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 15, 2023, 11:30:20 am
It seems Sturgeon is stepping down. Not sure who is in line to replace her. Can't immediately think of a third fish-named politician...

(Also, down south, Corbyn will definitively not be allowed to stand for Labour, if successor Starmer has any say over it, we still have Conservative tussles over certain major figures undergoing enquiries, NI has its own ongoing constitutional crisis and Wales might have more on its plate than merely recently cancelling all new road developments (but I've heard not so much more from that particular corner of the nations, recently).)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 15, 2023, 11:51:14 am
John Swinney seems the most likely choice, as he’s the current deputy and is the go-to for media appearances if Sturgeon isn’t available, but I think he had a stint as leader between 2000-2004 which wasn’t great.

He has also faced two calls of no confidence in the last few years at the behest of opposition parties, once as education secretary during the exams scandal in 2020 (that the UK government failed to learn from and did the exact same thing a few weeks later) and for failing to publish legal advice given to the Scottish government in relation to the government’s legal battle with Alex Salmond.

I wouldn’t be particularly happy with him in the role, but… who else?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 15, 2023, 12:38:34 pm
Well, I had a little look for fishlike-names, and maybe not John Finnie (whilst Bob Doris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dory) is a bit of a stretch), but how could I forget that there's always Mairi Gougeon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudgeon_(fish))!

'Scuse me, while I off to the bookies...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 15, 2023, 12:59:51 pm
The bookies favourite is apparently Angus Robertson, so we’re going for more bovine derived foodstuffs now.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on February 16, 2023, 04:10:50 am
I think he should be forced to change his name to Anglus
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on February 16, 2023, 09:34:20 pm
I thought this was entertaining:
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/16/juries-deserve-the-truth-on-climate-protests
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 16, 2023, 11:44:46 pm
John Swinney has ruled himself out of the leadership of the SNP.

New leader is to be announced on March 19th I think, so the emergency SNL conference thing to determine the future direction of the party has also been postponed, ‘cause having a new leader anchored to a position they may not necessarily accept is a silly idea.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 23, 2023, 04:25:56 pm
There's a TV advert, that I think ran around the turn of the New Year, to advertise how something (ISP service? Mobile phone contract? I forget what, and by who...) that 'predicted' things that would change this year, like chainmail[1] becoming fashionable and the door to 10 Downing Street being made into a revolving one.

One of the things was that turnips would become a major consumable (in all kinds of ways, including a "turnip latte"). Well, now there's actually this (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64745258)...

(And I've made my own chainmail, before, so maybe I should dig out my ring-maker and the rest of the tools!)


[1] The 'armour', not the spam.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 24, 2023, 10:57:26 am
...ok, so Ash Regan, Kate Forbes and Humza Yousaf for SNP leader.

Not so much as an obvious fish amongst them, unfortunately.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 24, 2023, 02:17:08 pm
Forbes recently announced that she wouldn’t have voted for gay marriage if she was an MSP at the time, which basically tanked her campaign on day one and is “tearing the party apart” if news reports are to be believed, and has said she wouldn’t challenge the UK government’s block on Gender Reform Bill, while Regan quit the government over same.

So yeah. Yousaf it is. Opposition parties seem to consider him the contender given how much they’ve said about his poor performance as health minister.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on February 24, 2023, 03:01:52 pm
Of the three Yousaf is the only one I would consider an acceptable leader. Scot Greens might be getting all my votes in the future, rather than just my list vote, depending on how things shake out though.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on February 24, 2023, 04:03:48 pm
Forbes recently announced that she wouldn’t have voted for gay marriage if she was an MSP at the time, which basically tanked her campaign on day one and is “tearing the party apart” if news reports are to be believed, and has said she wouldn’t challenge the UK government’s block on Gender Reform Bill, while Regan quit the government over same.

So yeah. Yousaf it is. Opposition parties seem to consider him the contender given how much they’ve said about his poor performance as health minister.
On the other hand...

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/kate-forbes-most-popular-candidate-29296053
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 24, 2023, 04:15:32 pm
More people in that said they don’t know who they’ll vote for than said they’d vote for Forbes :p fit was also a very small sample.

I thought I shouldn’t click a Daily Record link and I was right not to, but now I have icky tabloid cookies. Thanks :p
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 25, 2023, 12:03:32 am
I thought I shouldn’t click a Daily Record link and I was right not to, but now I have icky tabloid cookies. Thanks :p
(I hate pretty much any newspaper/similarly-newsy website, with so many cookies/etc. I often check what things I can aactual refuse as "non-essential", and one place I found myself on last week had hundreds of individually listed 'partners'. Maybe just any place they'd even marginally been connecting with, for included iframes and the like, in a web of Web-dependencies.  ...I was actually more concerned to find that my gas-supplier's web-pages was clearly loading up components from "tiktok.analytics" (-dot-something-or-other, but I forget exactly how the full thing went). But it's either bad practice or sheer laziness, the amount of externalised .js loading most commericial (or even merely "commercialised) web-pages do. And even the BBC seems to be doing similarly horrible things, in a subset of its web-based apps. But that's a gripe for another aside...)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2023, 12:20:10 am
Eh just be happy you have the .co.uk version of the BBC website. As a user outside the UK I get forced to the .com variety, and have adverts on the pages! Some are horrible pop-up type things that I have to actively close, some are scrollable for some bizarre reason and I get times when I’m scrolling through headlines and the page stops because I’m scrolling through some shitey advert on the side of the screen I was not even paying attention to (great use of advertising budget, certainly), not to mention the ones that you scroll past but kind of lock the screen onto them for a bit, because obviously the reason I’m not clicking on it is because I haven’t looked at it properly rather than having more interest in reading an article on Cocaine Bear or my local football team.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on February 25, 2023, 11:05:00 am
Humza if he was Swedish could have been forced into "hummer" which is Swedish for lobster, but I think in English that's slang for blowjob?

I am very disappointed in the fishlessness of this selection. I might have to reconsider my stance on Scottish independence :P
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Frumple on February 25, 2023, 01:30:34 pm
Humza if he was Swedish could have been forced into "hummer" which is Swedish for lobster, but I think in English that's slang for blowjob?
For a specific sort of one, actually. It gets the name from involving, well, humming.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on February 25, 2023, 01:47:06 pm
Never heard of "hummer" before, aside from someone who hums, or the car make.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Frumple on February 25, 2023, 02:07:47 pm
There were a great many jokes made about that car, too, heh.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 25, 2023, 07:44:59 pm
For what this article is about (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-64766691), it seems my big takeaway is that the niece of a certain gentleman (who left passive-aggressive notes on the office desks of those who were working at home) was someone who herself made use of legislation (at least partly created by the EU, to be additionally ironic...) to apparently take an extended leave of absence from her job.

(But then I've been awake for about 26 hours, really shouldn't be finally preparing for bed by winding down by reading news-sites, and may well not be concentrating properly on the intended message.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 25, 2023, 07:54:03 pm
She’s entitled to maternity leave. If that is indeed the reason she has been deselected, that would be a ridiculous reason to have done so.

I don’t know what a constituency association committee is though. Is it specific to the party, or is it a non-partisan thing for a constituency?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 26, 2023, 05:14:57 am
(I'm pretty much not ever more involved in any electoral matters beyond the actual public voting, but...) The former. Each respective party will have local people[1] who decide who they want to be the candidate. Occasionally they play a major role in disavowing an incumbant. Either alongside or oppposite the party line.

Though I suspect that rubbing entirely the wrong way against the full party machine would have consequences for them, so more likely just a matter of a firm attitude vs ambivalence is how that usually manifests, in most 'rebellions'/disagreements.




[1] With or without commandments/suggestions from the national level, e.g. whether Corbyn will represent Labour again, given Starmer says not.

edit: So many typos, having been rushed this morning, so I decided to clean it up...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on February 26, 2023, 10:53:33 am
What do British Bay12 forumites think of this video about post-Brexit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPIEhBydrr8&t=8s&ab_channel=Nova
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on February 26, 2023, 11:47:00 am
What do British Bay12 forumites think of this video about post-Brexit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPIEhBydrr8&t=8s&ab_channel=Nova

Seems pretty on point.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on February 26, 2023, 05:28:04 pm
Well, it's right about the bad effects about Brexit. It's not that the Conservative party don't know about them, electorally they can't admit the truth without condemning themselves even more.

As for 'apocalypse' and 'verge of collapse'. No. Declining quality of life doesn't mean the end of civilisation. We're not entering Mad Max territory just yet.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on March 02, 2023, 11:09:49 pm
https://www.politico.eu/article/whatsapp-panic-stalks-westminster-after-mass-leak-of-private-messages-matt-hancock/
WhatsApp panic stalks Westminster after mass leak of private messages

https://www.techdirt.com/2023/02/27/signal-if-uk-government-undermines-encryption-it-can-kiss-messaging-service-used-by-its-employees-goodbye/
Signal: If UK Government Undermines Encryption It Can Kiss Messaging Service Used By Its Employees Goodbye

Not directly related by being the same app but fun stuff nonetheless

How goes that Internet Safety Bill? Haven't looked at what's been going on with that lately. I remain advising to not fuck up the internet with short sighted plans pushed by incompetent people with an agenda of controlling legal speech. You should probably leave internet regulation to people who didn't refuse to adopt new technology until a pandemic sat them on their ass for a while. This is because with things like gutting section 230 in the US these people are not aware of obvious flaws such as what is known in internet terms as "raiding" a site a herd of cats aware of how to camoflauge IP disagrees with.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on March 02, 2023, 11:18:54 pm
https://www.politico.eu/article/whatsapp-panic-stalks-westminster-after-mass-leak-of-private-messages-matt-hancock/
WhatsApp panic stalks Westminster after mass leak of private messages

https://www.techdirt.com/2023/02/27/signal-if-uk-government-undermines-encryption-it-can-kiss-messaging-service-used-by-its-employees-goodbye/
Signal: If UK Government Undermines Encryption It Can Kiss Messaging Service Used By Its Employees Goodbye

Not directly related by being the same app but fun stuff nonetheless

How goes that Internet Safety Bill? Haven't looked at what's been going on with that lately. I remain advising to not fuck up the internet with short sighted plans pushed by incompetent people with an agenda of controlling legal speech. You should probably leave internet regulation to people who didn't refuse to adopt new technology until a pandemic sat them on their ass for a while. This is because with things like gutting section 230 in the US these people are not aware of obvious flaws such as what is known in internet terms as "raiding" a site a herd of cats aware of how to camoflauge IP disagrees with.

In defense of law makers and politicians everywhere, they need to create new laws to embarrass themselves. Why are so many IP addresses on PornHub linked to Westminster?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2023, 12:08:24 am
https://www.politico.eu/article/whatsapp-panic-stalks-westminster-after-mass-leak-of-private-messages-matt-hancock/
WhatsApp panic stalks Westminster after mass leak of private messages

https://www.techdirt.com/2023/02/27/signal-if-uk-government-undermines-encryption-it-can-kiss-messaging-service-used-by-its-employees-goodbye/
Signal: If UK Government Undermines Encryption It Can Kiss Messaging Service Used By Its Employees Goodbye

Not directly related by being the same app but fun stuff nonetheless

How goes that Internet Safety Bill? Haven't looked at what's been going on with that lately. I remain advising to not fuck up the internet with short sighted plans pushed by incompetent people with an agenda of controlling legal speech. You should probably leave internet regulation to people who didn't refuse to adopt new technology until a pandemic sat them on their ass for a while. This is because with things like gutting section 230 in the US these people are not aware of obvious flaws such as what is known in internet terms as "raiding" a site a herd of cats aware of how to camoflauge IP disagrees with.

In defense of law makers and politicians everywhere, they need to create new laws to embarrass themselves. Why are so many IP addresses on PornHub linked to Westminster?

MPs looking at tractors.

Edit: As to what’s happening, Matt Hancock deserves everything he gets. He is one of the most contemptible politicians out there, and considering the contenders for that title in his party, that’s saying something.

Even putting that to the side, even protected by an NDA, why he gave all of his messages to a journalist that was anti-lockdown to write your memoirs is an utterly imbecilic move. Evidently he couldn’t see past the dollar signs in his eyes.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on March 03, 2023, 12:33:14 am
I find both Hancock and that particular journalist both to be contemptable, for different reasons. Don't force me to choose which one should appear to come out of this episode the best.

And added to the proposed ways of online verification, there's the unwarranted shift towards the upwards cliff-edge of increased voter-ID requirements, which will (I predict) disproportionately penalise the those who end up falsely prevented from voting.

(Incidentally, on the lines of online UK stuff/identity, I uninstalled the BBC Weather App, the other day. Like the BBC News one had, some time last year, it changed from "You might like to register a BBC Online account to use this[1] and loads of other things[2]" into "You must have a registered account to use this". On principle, I once again declined and thus fell back to non-App weather info. I'm not a BBC hater/anti-Licence Fee/whatever, far from it, just consider this a matter of functional overreach with no practical necessity.)

[1] In ways I'd already been using it,, moreover, prior to the pestering and accompanying loss of functionality if I didn't follow their suggestion...

[2] That I don't use, or (now for definite) intend to.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on March 03, 2023, 05:27:45 am
It's nice to know it's not just the American politicians that are complete and utter hypocrites.

"Only WE get to have secret communication."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on March 03, 2023, 06:32:17 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 07, 2023, 06:56:38 am
Regarding Matt Hancock and leaks

So Matt Hancock's lawyer just made the oof of a century

His lawyer disclosed some information to some GB news journalists, who then published that information, further dunking on Matt Hancock for being a slimy dick who holds the public in naked contempt. His lawyer got furious accusing GB news of betraying trust and basic journalism ethics that info made in confidence should not be disclosed but in the email he sent to GB news...

Instead of saying "I would be grateful if it was not mentioned" he wrote "I would be grateful if it was mentioned" (https://twitter.com/AvaSantina/status/1632492541802160128).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on March 07, 2023, 07:33:48 am
*splorf*

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Or shouldn't. But luckily...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on March 07, 2023, 08:54:18 am
That's hilarious :D

I have to say I'm a bit impressed by the lawyer being able to own it in the middle of an interview like that. I'm not sure I would have the wherewithal to not double down on an embarrassing mistake like that on a live broadcast in front of lots of people. I'm pretty sure the part of my brain that still reasons lime a 5-year-old would have taken over at that point

(Do the Brittele really have news shows where people jeer like that though?)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on March 07, 2023, 08:57:46 am
GBNews doesn't really count as a proper news channel most of the time, it's basically "Wannabe Fox News". They more or less openly exist to push a narrative rather than to actually...ya know, report on the news.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 07, 2023, 10:25:44 am
That's hilarious :D

I have to say I'm a bit impressed by the lawyer being able to own it in the middle of an interview like that. I'm not sure I would have the wherewithal to not double down on an embarrassing mistake like that on a live broadcast in front of lots of people. I'm pretty sure the part of my brain that still reasons lime a 5-year-old would have taken over at that point
It's like the most anxious dreams all come to life

(Do the Brittele really have news shows where people jeer like that though?)
Like Morley says, GB news is an attempt to create a private propaganda wing
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on March 07, 2023, 11:05:29 am
GBNews doesn't really count as a proper news channel most of the time, it's basically "Wannabe Fox News". They more or less openly exist to push a narrative rather than to actually...ya know, report on the news.
Never actually seen any GBN (not yet watched the linked clip yet), and everything I'm hearing (not just from "the rest of the media", nor only from those who personally dislike the channel) makes me believe that the channel (and anyone who takes up a position with the channel) does not reflect any reasonable viewpoint at all.

I think their tagline is "Britain's News Channel", but I'd put plenty of other places ahead of them in fulfilling that promise. And the amount of problems they've suffered (including what seems like schadenfreude, if not entirely self-afflicted) hasn't helped improve my opinion of their professionalism.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on April 13, 2023, 08:21:07 am
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/04/12/joe-biden-us-president-oust-power-liz-truss-prime-minister/

Liz Truss continues her descent. Before long she'll be doing press conferences from a mental hospital treating her for paranoid schizophrenia.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on April 13, 2023, 08:48:41 am
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/04/12/joe-biden-us-president-oust-power-liz-truss-prime-minister/

Liz Truss continues her descent. Before long she'll be doing press conferences from a mental hospital treating her for paranoid schizophrenia.
Heh, she's still no Trumpy.
You Brits are too hard on your politicians, apparently.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on April 13, 2023, 09:55:54 am
Quote from: Maggie's failed heiress
Last autumn, I had a major setback …
Understatement.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on April 13, 2023, 10:40:37 am
Yeah all these people not wanting to see the UK economy collapse, what a bunch of wankers!

She’s a fairly typical Tory, thinking that people are too stupid to notice that she was the one that fucked up, and if she says otherwise enough times people will believe it.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on April 15, 2023, 07:25:58 pm
Yeah all these people not wanting to see the UK economy collapse, what a bunch of wankers!

She’s a fairly typical Tory politicians, thinking that people are too stupid to notice that she was the one that fucked up, and if she says otherwise enough times people will believe it.
Fixed that for you, but again maybe you Brits aren't as bad as US Americans on that front.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 19, 2023, 02:34:38 pm
I think there's much to be said about how no one wants the UK economy to collapse, but it also needs to acknowledge the whole problem of the financial services and its ancillary boys and girls in fintech, accounting, insurance, law and fraud to stop cannibalising all productivity in the UK for profits that just eat up the lives and power of the UK people in the long run
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on April 23, 2023, 09:31:47 am
Well, there you go. The UK's much-heralded National Alert System test just happened. I'd actually forgotten about it (though I think some roadside dot-matrix signs mentioned, when I passed the the other day... Dumfries, I think it was).

So, anyway, as predicted my "dumbphone" did nothing (it's supposed to be tied to 4G/5G things, this one apparently has 3G but I don't know what for as I've never had anything to do with data... One menu item is an "Apps Manager", but never used it for more than voice and SMS).

My tablet, running offline (was in the middle of an Idle-Game, while listening to some old radio recordings off of the computer) didn't make any sound[1], despite the suggestion that it should. (I had Ring, Notification and Alarm on full-volume, only Media was slid down to zero...  But the suggestion was that it was unmutable without changing a more in-depth setting that I'm fairly sure I've never bothered with.) The message that popped over the game (which froze, until I dismissed the overlay, and didn't even give me acces to the volume draw-down element so disabled UI-level stuff) had a URL to click but I didn't try it (would not connect, anyway, until I made either Wifi or Mobile[3] connectivity active), and dismissal resumed things. Should have tried a screenshot (for my own fun and amusement only), but don't know if it would have worked as I didn't think of it until right now.


So, perhaps we'll hear more about how it went in the news, tonight. And hopefully not have so much idle (https://xkcd.com/1435/) or erroneous (https://xkcd.com/1946/) uses of it. I already get far too many text alerts from my mobile provider saying that there's maintenance going to go on in a postcode area (near) where I sometimes have loitered in the past, just in case I happen to be going back there whilst it is ongoing.

[1] There was all the fuss about vulnerable people having to disable/turn-off their "secret phones" so that abusers/gaslighters couldn't discover their lifeline equipment, and I wonder how many awkward situations have occured[2] because of not being heeded correctly, including contraband prison-phones and other less worthy exceptions)

[2] Also, a very short-term uptick in road-accidents, by those who couldn't not illegally fiddle with their devices when driving. Just as others nearby are likewise distracted in that same window of misipportunity!

[3] I wonder if it's exempt from data-plan limits, like the service-provider "boost your plan"/etc pages are. ISPs/mobile companies ought to enable that for such addresses, if it's important, as it might catch some people out otherwise.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on April 23, 2023, 09:57:36 am
My phone didn't do anything despite being on the supposedly compatible list so....erm, yeah xD
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on April 23, 2023, 04:32:13 pm
So, perhaps we'll hear more about how it went in the news, tonight.
Heh, the news will probably be the only folks who report it went well...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on April 26, 2023, 04:41:07 am
(There were indeed shots of people, in public, all reacting. A bit like the Doctor Who episode where they found themselves on alternate-universe Pete's Planet in the lead-up to the Cybermen reboot, but with less standing still. And apparently they only reached 80% of compatible phones, one of the providers having technical issues, but with some of those crossing/hovering near the England-Wales border in the half-hour period getting both "English" and "Bilingual" versions, separately. But, anyway, enough of that, came back in only with the following...)

I wasn't aware that this legal change (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65397235) was so seriously on the cards as to now be a thing now to be done.

As I never talk about any of the actual details of my own time on a jury (as a matter of principle), I cannot openly reflect on the difference between having and not having the option (or the number of people involved), but it still has me thinking about it again.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: jipehog on April 26, 2023, 07:48:11 am
The measures will also see the number of jurors in criminal trials reduced from 15 to 12.
why an even number? Isn't courts usually prefer an odd one to avoid the tie scenario. Or is this not relevant for how jurors work in the UK.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on April 26, 2023, 08:22:25 am
Previously it required 8/15 to convict. They're keeping the requirement for 8 jurors to agree on Guilty, but dropping the total to 12.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on April 29, 2023, 02:58:50 am
Ah yes, the classic "Let no guilty man go free, irregardless of the number of innocent souls we must extinguish".

EDIT: To be clear, that is mainly focused on the overall changes.  I'm an American, so I think all jurors should convict for a guilty verdict.
But I have those mean and nasty thoughts about that word every prosecutor hates to hear: Innocence.
Like seriously, if you ever get a chance to talk to a Prosecutor, just use the word Innocent and see how their faces contort in hatred & disgust.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: bloop_bleep on April 30, 2023, 03:33:12 pm
8/12 (two-thirds) of jurors needing to vote guilty is a more stringent requirement than 8/15 jurors (simple majority).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on May 02, 2023, 11:49:51 am
Kier's now reneged on the "no tuition fees" promise.

I'm doing what LW did years ago and calling them Laour, they don't deserve the B any more. They'd probably renege on their spelling too, anyway.

So yeah, is Laour now standing for anything *other* than "We're not completely insane"?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on May 02, 2023, 12:19:36 pm
Some of their policy about moving towards sorting out the housing crisis seems like an incremental step in the right direction with mandatory housing targets, and maybe some limits on investors buying up new homes.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on May 04, 2023, 09:15:50 pm
Local elections in England don’t seem to be going well for the Tories.

35 of 230 councils have announced results according to the Beeb, and they’ve already lost 70 seats.

They might gain seats in other councils as-yet-unannounced, but they could also lose even more. All this a year removed from a general election.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on May 04, 2023, 09:52:48 pm
Shock, the Party That Fucked It All Up is presently losing fucking hard.

Like they've pissed off everyone. That's actually an accomplishment.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 04, 2023, 11:37:05 pm
They were at a disadvantage that they were(/are) defending about half as many seats again as Labour, I think it is, so have more to lose than all their opponents (major and minor).

And, in part, this could be because the places on a four-year cycle might have been gained from Labour in 2019 (when there was a stark right-swing) and so are potentially wobbling back towards their original 'owners', on top of at least 2022's cycle being rolling away from them. But I haven't checked any of these particular suppositions, so ICBW.


As I don't have a relevent vote, in this sideshow, I've not really been following the commentators. But I suspect that pro-Labour (or anti-Tory) swings are inevitable, and yet possibly Labour doing 'well' is actually a problem for them when really they ought to do 'magnicicently' given the government climate within which this voting cycle is engendered. It might mean that Rishi is just not a car-crash (unlike predecessors, ultimately or indeed entirely), Kier isn't looking quite so MOT-ready or just that people are finally voting for representatives and not the umbrella entities (parties and/or current leaders) that often mean very little about how exactly any of the incumbant/contesting bods will actually represent your neighbourhood.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on May 05, 2023, 01:31:34 pm
This almost was never going to be a "good" night for the Tories, but the scale of losses at all ends is the telling detail. They lost almost just as many seats to the Lib Dems as as to Labour.

Mid Suffolk in just three cycles went from "Conservative" to "No Overall Control but Conservative largest share" to "Green Party Control". Several historical battlegrounds and relatively safe seats both went away from them and became either No Overall Control or outright lost. The Lib Dems ate into the conservative heartlands just as the Labour heartlands returned to them, and combination has left them down over a 1000 council seats, which was being passed around as an absolute worst case number.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 05, 2023, 03:16:49 pm
The doorstep message from the PM was something like "The people have spoken, and they have told us that we should continue to prioritise all the things that we were previously prioritising".

Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on May 05, 2023, 08:08:36 pm
Tories lost 1/3 of their seats (Over 1000 in total), and last I saw about 2/3 of the councils they controlled.

Fucking ouch.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on May 06, 2023, 04:39:02 pm
Is that enough to change your PM and Government?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on May 06, 2023, 04:46:37 pm
Nah it’s basically city/county elections, just all happening at once. Just for England anyway.

The general election is expected next year though, so this is a horrible bellwether for the Tories in that.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 06, 2023, 05:53:28 pm
Some treatments of "if these people were voting for MPs, and everyone else also was" give a possibility of it having been a full-on change of government (if that's the question being asked).

Though that's hedged by both the people and the politicians involved often behaving differently in GEs (protest votes, rash promises, stored-up complaints maable against others being trickled/gushed out in a carefully designed schedule...).

And national/global events could overturn much of the political landscape, so even a snap GE in two weeks could be hit by cascadinng bank-collapses or escalating military tensions in various quarters of the world (to name just two possibilities).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on May 06, 2023, 05:59:01 pm
I suspect the long-term grinding down of funds for local government is a factor, as well as the the NHS. From little things like potholes, to big things like not being able to get a GP appointment; the police couldn't catch a bus let alone a burglar, the ambulances take hours to arrive, the water companies are given free reign to pump sewage into the rivers and beaches... the whole country feels degraded from just ten or fifteen years ago.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on May 07, 2023, 09:50:50 pm
...at least it's not all on fire and broke like the US.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on May 07, 2023, 10:34:19 pm
Everybody’s on strike instead.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: jipehog on May 08, 2023, 07:27:22 am
I suspect the long-term grinding down of funds for local government is a factor, as well as the the NHS. From little things like potholes, to big things like not being able to get a GP appointment; the police couldn't catch a bus let alone a burglar, the ambulances take hours to arrive, the water companies are given free reign to pump sewage into the rivers and beaches... the whole country feels degraded from just ten or fifteen years ago.
Is it though?  I find that often although stats show that things are better than ever, but many people feel the exact opposite because in todays media environment they are more exposed to report about than they used to
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on May 08, 2023, 12:48:00 pm
That position is true about some things, like perception of violent crime, but not with regards to the issues I mentioned.

Potholes are up (though I agree perception of potholes probably makes it seem worse):

(https://www.fleetpoint.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/pothole-graph.png)

NHS waiting times are up under the Tories:

(https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/27447.jpeg)

Charge rates are way down. Everyone who has any experience of dealing with the police for most non-violent offences know that they're not interested (especially things like bike theft):

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/13918/production/_107925108_optimised-charge_rate-nc.png.webp)

Ambulance response times have degraded massively over just the last few years:

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/279C/production/_124704101_optimised-cat2_amb_resp_chart_12may-nc.png)

Water quality (due to sewage outflow and other pollutants) is generally up, though it wasn't great to begin with:

(https://i.imgur.com/UZL9U0B.png)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: jipehog on May 09, 2023, 06:37:05 am
Could be. I am not familiar with all the stats and long term trends in UK in these categories. Reading a humorous book about your medical system is the extent of what I know here.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 09, 2023, 08:16:47 am
Reading a humorous book about your medical system is the extent of what I know here.
Let's just get this straight, James Herriot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Herriot) is not a people-doctor.

Nor is Dr No really that much of a people-person, with frankly unothodox ideas about healthcare. He also works overseas, mainly, and has more global aspirations.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 09, 2023, 08:37:54 am
Kier's now reneged on the "no tuition fees" promise.

I'm doing what LW did years ago and calling them Laour, they don't deserve the B any more. They'd probably renege on their spelling too, anyway.

So yeah, is Laour now standing for anything *other* than "We're not completely insane"?
I don't think I can take credit for coining Laour, I think someone else coined it and I just adopted it to continue making cosmic horror shitposts about British politics. Something about Jeremy Corbyn pondering orbs happened along the way too

Charge rates are way down. Everyone who has any experience of dealing with the police for most non-violent offences know that they're not interested (especially things like bike theft):
Around my area groups of muggers ride around on rented bicycles in broad sunny daylight wearing ski masks and baclavas looking for easy targets, knowing even if the police get called there'll be no follow-up investigation. One of my friends even used the GPS tracker on his stolen phone to get the address of the person who stole his phone and police did absolutely nothing with this information, telling him it was a civil offence
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on May 09, 2023, 09:02:16 am
Around my area groups of muggers ride around on rented bicycles in broad sunny daylight wearing ski masks and baclavas looking for easy targets, knowing even if the police get called there'll be no follow-up investigation. One of my friends even used the GPS tracker on his stolen phone to get the address of the person who stole his phone and police did absolutely nothing with this information, telling him it was a civil offence
There are similar stories all over (though crooks don't usually wear pastries). I've had multiple bikes stolen over the years, and there's literally no point getting the police involved. This kind of common disillusionment with the police is now very widespread. The thing to do in cases like you mention is to just take the item back (what are the thieves gonna do, call the cops??).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: jipehog on May 09, 2023, 10:06:57 am
Reading a humorous book about your medical system is the extent of what I know here.
Let's just get this straight, James Herriot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Herriot) is not a people-doctor.

Nor is Dr No really that much of a people-person, with frankly unothodox ideas about healthcare. He also works overseas, mainly, and has more global aspirations.

I was thinking of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Going_to_Hurt   
Whether gynaecolog is a people-doctor i'll leave for you to decide.

Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on May 09, 2023, 10:42:48 am
Pretty sure Laour was MetalSlimeHunt, or someone similar like Maximum Zero.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 09, 2023, 02:55:03 pm
Pretty sure Laour was MetalSlimeHunt, or someone similar like Maximum Zero.
I thought it was MSH myself but I didn't want to gaslight anyone lol

There are similar stories all over (though crooks don't usually wear pastries). I've had multiple bikes stolen over the years, and there's literally no point getting the police involved. This kind of common disillusionment with the police is now very widespread. The thing to do in cases like you mention is to just take the item back (what are the thieves gonna do, call the cops??).
We've had the police arrest people for scaring burglars before by waving around a knife in their own home
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on May 09, 2023, 05:01:00 pm

There are similar stories all over (though crooks don't usually wear pastries). I've had multiple bikes stolen over the years, and there's literally no point getting the police involved. This kind of common disillusionment with the police is now very widespread. The thing to do in cases like you mention is to just take the item back (what are the thieves gonna do, call the cops??).
We've had the police arrest people for scaring burglars before by waving around a knife in their own home
Damn, that sounds like New York!
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on May 09, 2023, 05:40:23 pm
I think when it comes to using potentially deadly force there's a line of proportionality that must be considered. If you have a norm of people being trigger happy (or stab-happy) in their own homes, it will end in innocent people getting hurt (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/09/louisiana-girl-hide-and-seek-shooting).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Funk on May 09, 2023, 05:44:58 pm
The thing to do in cases like you mention is to just take the item back (what are the thieves gonna do, call the cops??).
The issue is there low life's that will be happy to keep it until you do something that the police might care to bother with.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 10, 2023, 01:56:50 am
I think when it comes to using potentially deadly force there's a line of proportionality that must be considered. If you have a norm of people being trigger happy (or stab-happy) in their own homes, it will end in innocent people getting hurt (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/09/louisiana-girl-hide-and-seek-shooting).
This isn't anything to do with proportionality or people gunning down fleeing randos. This is literally arresting someone who waved a kitchen knife, in their own kitchen, to warn off someone actively trying to break into their house. No one hurt, lady didn't chase down the burglar either or start throwing rocks at him or something

Similar madness happened when five guys were kicking down the door of my mother whilst she was still in the house. She calls police and they tell her to check if they have a crowbar because they won't send anyone unless they have a crowbar. For obvious reasons she wasn't willing to enter the hallway but police can be a bit daft now with their overstretched resources and structural corrosion. It's like how we had police arresting women for handing out rape alarms or arresting protestors protesting when a policeman had raped and killed a woman. Priorities are whacked
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on May 12, 2023, 01:03:17 am
Well yeah, of course cops are gonna beat the everloving crap out of anyone that says they do wrong.

Funny story, I found out that body cams in my area were a direct result to three cops having left the residence of a dead guy and swearing none of them did it.
...they're all still employed in Law Enforcement, I believe.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on May 12, 2023, 05:38:33 pm
Is it true that the Conservative party just lost a bunch of seats in local elections?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on May 12, 2023, 05:52:29 pm
Yes, they lost over a thousand seats, and for the first time in decades they're no longer the biggest party at the local level.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 12, 2023, 06:37:00 pm
Is it true that the Conservative party just lost a bunch of seats in local elections?
They lost 1063 seats (net, of the 8000ish up for contention). Labour got 537 more (gains minus losses, some losses being to the aforementioned), LDs were +407, Green +241, the rest comparative small-change gains/losses, by number (starting with 89 unaffiliated Independents who lost out to party-affiliations, by the raw values at least...).

By percentage change, the losers were UKIP (lost 25, ended up at zero) at -100% outcome, compared with Tory -30%. Skipping a few, Labour was +25%, LibDem +33.3% then some other minor sets (+50% or +100%, but still single-digit) to Green at slightly above +100% improvement.

Council-wise, Con reduced by 48 (to just 33 in the 230 total), Lab was +22 (now 71). Lib Dem +12 (to 29), Green got +1 (to 1, which is interesting) and even Independent got +1 (to 2)... (However that works, with majority no-party individuals!. It's an entirely different thing from the No Overall Control situation, which moved +12 to 92. And you can work out 'who' overtook who, obviously.)

So the figures look bad for Conservatives, reasonably good for Labour and a variety of messages for the others. Green/LibDem both having reason to interpret things cheerfully, at least as a foot (back) in the door.

UKIP might be a spent force, having 'achieved' their original single-policy core aim. Though Reform UK is the 'post'-Brexit equivalent sub-party, which seemed to include candidates who were originally Tory but thought the party wasn't Euroskeptic enough (or maybe the local party thought they were too much so?), however much more that fringe group has going on in in. They went from 4 to 6 seats (one of the +50%ers), I'd have to check where, and who lost out in the process.


I was going to do a full comparison of how many Foos became Bars (cutting through the Net figures, to give fully-flavoured Gross statistics, amongst other things), but I've not gotten round to that yet! I'm sure actual salaried psephologists have already processed even the tiniest details to death, though, and definitely such halfway-crude measures as I've yet to get the data together for. ;)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on May 12, 2023, 10:12:33 pm
So, can any of the Non-Conservatives get along well enough to form a majority?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on May 13, 2023, 12:55:56 am
There’s usually deals between parties that happen so things actually get done, whether that’s formal coalitions or concessions made on a case-by-case basis.

There was a weird one I think in Scotland somewhere in which one of Labour or the Tories were forming a coalition with the other, which went over very poorly.

Majorities aren’t really necessary, they just need to wheel and deal a bit more than if they did have one.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on May 13, 2023, 01:39:51 am
Ah, that must be nice.  In America "Negotiate" is a dirty word.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 13, 2023, 03:32:48 pm
Representation at the County(/Borough/whatever) level doesn't go beyond the subregional level of significance.  If there are 100 seats in Camberwick Green Metropolitan Borough Council and 51+ of them are members of the Pippin Fort Military Junta Party, then the council (within bounds set by the relevent national government requirements) does its business in line with PFMJP policies (or as near as it can, with the possibility of representational dissent on rather specific issues, such as exactly how to foil the minority Tripp's Mill Independence Rebellion Party's attempts to redefine local planning laws in their own electoral wards).

That doesn't necessarily directly factor in national government/parliament. Neither Chippy Minton MP (of the Trumpton Central And Camberwick Green constituency, Socialist Workers Party) nor Lord Belborough Of Chigley (sitting as a a cross-bench peer in the second-house) even technically need to take direct account of anything beyond their own granted responsibilities (and, Chippy may have only to worry about Mrs Cobbit, Green Party candidate/most likely contender at the next General Election), in the grand scheme of things...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 15, 2023, 05:53:04 pm
RM suggests a reason why they lost voters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65599380)... The very thing others thought (or still think) would boost them/suppress the votes of others.

The level of contradictions in this situation is amusing...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: notquitethere on May 15, 2023, 06:41:06 pm
Haha and Mogg going and admitting the voter suppression rationale and the government having to deny it.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on May 15, 2023, 08:02:08 pm
Braverman is also chatting about making the UK economy high wage, high skill while simultaneously trying to suggest that we should be training people to be fruit pickers so we don’t have as many immigrants.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 15, 2023, 08:09:03 pm
She means high wage, high skill jobs for the real people in Londinium. Fruit picking is something for proles in the province to do. And why would you import more proles when you can grow them organically?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 16, 2023, 05:12:39 am
RM suggests a reason why they lost voters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65599380)... The very thing others thought (or still think) would boost them/suppress the votes of others.

The level of contradictions in this situation is amusing...
Hot damn it's a rare day when the Guardian agrees with JRM. I don't know how the Tories keep cannibalising themselves again and again

She means high wage, high skill jobs for the real people in Londinium. Fruit picking is something for proles in the province to do. And why would you import more proles when you can grow them organically?
Honestly we need to mechanise our farming already. All this talk about making a science and tech economy but we put no money into science and tech. We've had AstraZeneca complaining that the defunding of public health services has made UK private health research unattractive because the government toils under the misapprehension that public health spending is a sinful waste of taxes and not one of the best selling points of the UK economy, and UK semi-conductors are getting annihilated whilst Germany, Japan, Taiwan and America are all dropping billions of euros, yen, yuan and dollars subsidising their semiconductor industries to keep pace with China. But UK gov is all talk talk talk -_-

It's also depressing but a lot of the jobs in Londongrad are split between high skill but low pay (reminder that the government considers doctors, civil servants and nurses unskilled lmao) or low skill but high pay (finance, equity, fintech and insurance are actively cannibalising the rest of the UK economy). Either drastic wage growth is needed across the country, or house prices need to be reigned in. You get those outliers in law or finance who make >£150k but the majority of Londoners make £20-35k with that range rising amongst over 50s to £30-40k, yet to afford to live in the city you need to make >£33k and to own a house you need to make >£120k. The city right now is like a giant honeypot trap where people from across the UK or even across the world get lured in by >£28k salaries only to find >80% of their salary is devoured by rents and travel fees. Lots of the international workers I work with were fine even with this when the sterling was strong, but after the Liz Truss cabbagnomics there's no point in them even staying in the UK because they can't get any value out of sending remittances so may as well go back and work in their mother countries

I almost feel there's an element of futility that just boils down to how the government always favoured deregulating credit and restricting council housing development in order to artificially inflate the housing market. Wages being flat for the last 30 years is miserable enough but what would be the point of tripling everyone's salaries if it doesn't address property developers just gouging everyone's value again and again ;<
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Funk on May 16, 2023, 10:07:56 am
She means high wage, high skill jobs for the real people in Londinium. Fruit picking is something for proles in the province to do. And why would you import more proles when you can grow them organically?
It's only soft fruit, an area that has grown considerably in the last 20 years, fuelled by the flexible low cost labour of temporary economic migrants.
No one is makeing it a carer and staying, they spend a summer here working hard and take the money home where its worth something.
Its odd that only soft fruit faces a crash, other fields like building labours are not in this "shortage" maybe it's there better conditions like not being charged rent to stay in a remote and run down caravan while working 12 hours a day.

We've had years of employers being able to get an artificially good pick of the uk and europen labour market, just by the high pound making grunt work in the UK attractive financially to professionals in the EU8+.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on May 18, 2023, 12:54:22 am
So umm... Liz Truss just visited Taiwan..

lol
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 18, 2023, 09:16:30 am
Liz Truss got more clout as a former PM than an actual politician xD
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on May 18, 2023, 12:46:29 pm
Yeah I was about to ask about that, because... well, be careful or she'll be back in your politics with the image of a experience-hardened global politics veteran

Maybe she's angling for a UN/global politics career now?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on May 18, 2023, 01:10:27 pm
She’s certainly not going to be a national leader ever again.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 18, 2023, 04:07:32 pm
Maybe she's angling for a UN/global politics career now?
I honestly believe a significant number of UK politicians, whether they were pro-Brexit or not, will end up working to lobby in the European Union
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on May 18, 2023, 08:13:38 pm
She’s certainly not going to be a national leader ever again.
Well, at least not a British national leader...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 19, 2023, 05:31:25 am
"Legal migration is too high, says Rishi Sunak" (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65643684)

I've long said that the Tories have been applying the stick (adding ways to punish 'illegal' migration, or make grey-areas more so) without offering any more carrot (at least token efforts at providing alternatives[1], so that people don't feel pressured to try the other[2]). Now I can definitely say that they're definitely also conspicuously rationing the carrot. Basically aiming for "all stick", indiscriminately, except for the lucky few (or rich enough few, even if there's also been fine words said against Russian diamonds, in the last couple of days).

Without being a free-immgration absolutist, by any means, I can see only that this is meant to bolster their Absolutely Not / No Overseas Individuals / Everyone Denied  (ANNOIED) base. Which I can only hope is not a loss-leader in their policy store, and that actually it bites them back with all those who think beyond the simplistic monochrome of it.


(Having recently heard of someone who might be looking at being a legitimate arrival, I'm a little more atuned to this issue. Also I've been a person (temporarily) living across national/subnational boundaries, in my past. Including a stint in Berlin; at the time often called "Turkey's second largest city", but not with any of the obvious ire of locals that you might get even in allegedly internationalist London of nth-generation 'immigrants'. - Though you still had plenty of Ost/West differences to distract them from trivial problems like that, and my own barely functional German. ;) )


[1] Yes, they opened up options for Ukraine (but quite pointedly very much less so equivalent messes like Afghanistan), but only after public outcry. And they hardly made it easy, by all accounts, with many speed-bumps along the way. Hong Kong is the other example, of course, but volume/rate/length of time this has covered makes it harder for me to compare.

[2] Driving people into the clutches of the very migration-gangs they say they want to punish (by punishing mainly the attempted migrants themselves).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on May 19, 2023, 07:10:33 am
I mean, I absolutely view the policy of responding to our many population/workforce/wage-to-living-situation problems with an unsceptic "more immigration" is a spiral that only leads to further problems that needs to be forever answered with "more immigration!" again and again while treating the populace of the world as some sort of unending, ever drainablr resource that our "first world" countries can just suck up, chew up, and spit out over and over again in a race towards the bottom of wages and living standards; but the alternative, making use of and retraining the populace already here first, is going to mean actually investing money on the present populace on a probably unprecedented in the last 30-50 years scale and huge economical model changes, and still accept a lot of immigration. And I highly doubt a right-wing, neo-lib establishment is anywhere near ready to actually commit to that – I'm guessing it's gonna be the old "we don't need to import people who will work for less and live in worse circumstances than our lower class if we make our lower class poorer and worse off and forced to work" that always come from the right. If you want to lessen harvest work migration, for example? Well that's not mainly about "teaining" the locals that's about going back (or is it about going forward ;) ) to an economic model where a person/company can make a livint/profit of fruit without having to have more plants than they can manage to harvest on their own – and is that a feasible change? Maybe the answer is more industrialisation, or having the slump-backed, coffee-addled IT and office workers of the cities get a few months of mandatory "muscle and cardio health improvement opportunity" in the summer and autumn, I dunno.  But harvest workers is one of the oldest forms of international migrancy reasons for a reason.

All in all I'd be supportive of all efforts to draw more on our established populace for important work; aiming for basic self reliance is a good thing – it feels wrong to just rely on other countries and brain drain instead of aiming to use our own resources for our own problems. But it has to be by building people up, not making things even worse for the working class, otherwise what's the point?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on May 19, 2023, 09:38:04 am
(Torrie) Politicians know that they can score easy political points by beating on people that can't vote. So beating on immigrants is a solid tactic. It will probably be effective, as those who vote against politicians who take these positions have probably already abandoned the Torries.

...if you can make a parallel with US politics, feel free.  :P
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 19, 2023, 12:53:37 pm
They already made a poke at Starmer allegedly giving votes to 'furriners' and 'da yout'. (I forget the wording, but the press that screamed about this phrased it as "that horde of young boat-using foreigners", rather than two different classes.) Apparently an attempt to reverse Brexit[1]. When it was extending voting rights to all "settled" residents (not just EU-origin) in a "they pay taxes, they should be able to vote. And, separately, 16+ voting rights.

Whatever you like or dislike about Starmer, it's a clear dog-whistle "attack" constructed by his under-siege opponents. Which'll work in some circles. (It's a damned-if-you-explain/damned-if-you-don't-explain situation, of course.)


[1] If there's one thing Kier won't promise, it's that. And given the bolted horse, on that, I can't see any practical way to coax the whole horse back into the stable again, anyway. It'd need unprecedentedly positive pro-Euro pressure, not just a majority of people not voting anti-Euro like we already had.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on June 09, 2023, 05:05:25 pm
"They have still not produced a shred of evidence that I knowingly or recklessly misled the Commons."

- a taste of the various bits of "I'm innocent!" in Johnson's resignation letter, after being given an advanced look at the conclusions (and reasoning) of the enquiry set up to look into him. Which makes me wonder what it will say. Enough to not ride out, but aparently not so much as to break through the shell of self-denial.

But Boris was never one to deal with things gracefully. Perhaps he was just waiting until he had seen his "Resignation Honours List" pushed through without problem. With the rather interesting situation regarding Nadine Dorries resigning but not receiving a peerage (whatever the details are surrounding that).



Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on June 09, 2023, 06:08:17 pm
Nadine Dorries is a bizarre one. “Something significant happened” they changed her mind, about what? She was a Boris loyalist who was never going into government while this lot were in charge.

My favourite thing she said was lambasting Rishi and his ilk for hastening the ousting of Boris because he was a proven vote-winner, while glossing over the fact he’s also a proven liar, and winning votes is apparently more important than effectively governing the country.

Rishi has shown himself to be weak, given he did nothing about the honours list being a pretty clear-cut case of cronyism. Boris’ hairdresser was on the list for crying out loud. You have people up and down the country raising money for charities, volunteering their time, keeping the country alive and running during the pandemic, and he rewards someone who made his hair look floppy? Anybody with a lick of sense would scrap the list, but I suppose the recently papered-over cracks in the party need to be maintained.

Rishi should just kick the chair away now, anyway. No point waiting a year for an election, unless Keir Starmer is videoed molesting a child the Tories are done, and the sad thing is Labour are no better. They’re trying to (and probably succeed to) take power away from local chapters from being able to choose who they want to represent them in parliament (like Jeremy Corbyn) as part of a quest to systematically eliminate the left-wing from the party. Sad day when the Labour Party doesn’t represent the labour force anymore.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on June 09, 2023, 06:12:40 pm
Nadine Dorries is a bizarre one.
Pretty sure that's just her being generally dim.

And maybe an alcoholic, someone suggested that and it'd explain a lot.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on June 10, 2023, 03:06:35 am
Hey styling hair to that unstyled isn't easy
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on June 15, 2023, 06:34:10 am
Not that it probably matters to anyone (any side of the argument), but I find it entertaining that the released "Boris report" has effectively two new 'charges' added to it from when he got to read it (and weep) for himself. For both orchestrating the impugning of the committee's originally intended conclusions and also for contemptuously revealing their unpublished findings (whilst "getting his retalliation in first"), via his resignation letter.

The recommended 90-day suspension (it might have been as few as 10 days, before..?) can't apply now. But maybe it should be 'held over', like some driving disqualifications of underage drivers, made to start being served only upon the start of their normally legitimate "driving lifetime". (Though that would be... troublesome. Any place where he was listed up again and they actually elected him anew would by automatically required to re-open a new by-election, which... yeah, that has various problems attached to it.)

But he's been all-but-Expelled, to the limit of current procedure, even if support for actual expelling was a minority within the group themselves. Future parliamentary procedure/floor-time is open to increasing/decreasing the effectiveness of the recommendations, so maybe full disqualification could happen (until the tides change again and it gets revoked).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on June 21, 2023, 09:58:48 pm
No idea if she’s still doing it (it wouldn’t surprise me) but the “immediate” resignation of Nadine Dorries is being delayed so she can figure out why she isn’t getting her £300 daily allowance I mean her peerage, because I imagine her constituents’ priority is indeed her completely naked ambition.

Another reason for it is also so that the Tories can’t get the by-election(s) over quickly, possibly with the intent for it to run into the party conference season in a few months time. Because Tory voters in her constituency presumably want to make it more difficult for the Tories to win these by-elections? That one might be the case though. A touch divided as a party they are, at the moment.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on June 22, 2023, 01:30:56 am
x (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65963393)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on June 22, 2023, 04:05:17 am
Maybe none of the Chiltern Hundreds are yet prepared to take her on? (Given the legal fiction needed to get around the actual inability of an MP to officially 'resign'...)

Either way, we still haven't seen the result of ripping the other sticking-plasters off the hairy knees of the Tory majority. It could just as backfire for the disruptors, depending upon how both 20th July by-elections go. The general tone at the time may equally shift the old swingometer for each, but it'll be more likely that any 'lessons learnt' or kickback from those results could be far more chaotic an influence, on top of whatever other political landmines are unknowingly set to explode in the interim (laid by whoever, and currently ticking away beneath any party's front line[1]) and shift the background hum of public perception at just the right/wrong time.

And then there's Conference Season. Given how we seem to have had Summer Surprises over recent times, I really don't know where the big-picture will have shifted by then. We could even find a forced/chosen General Election called for before Christmas... Well... no sign of that yet, but either very bad or very good outcomes betweentime could yet make it seem necessary. ;)

[1] Either another 'lockdown jitterbug' or a further whip-leaving over future energy policies or more party-top-table financial 'interviews' or further roadblocks on power-sharing or... Most likely, something new that's totally out of the blue(/red/yellow/green/other-yellow/whatever), as if the existing smouldering dumpster-fires aren't already obvious beacons to navigate between the various options.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: McTraveller on June 23, 2023, 11:55:08 am
Was just reading an article about a looming "UK mortgage crisis."  It talked about two-year mortgages? What is that?  It said "people that bought a house when mortgages were 1%-2% interest, are now going to be paying 6%."

Does UK not have 15 or 30 year mortgages? Does it force everyone into an ARM or 5/1 or something that requires refinancing in only 2 years?

Sounds very odd for those of us in different situations.  (Not gonna lie; I feel like I'm stealing, having locked in 2.25% for a 15-year mortgage on my house.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on June 23, 2023, 12:37:33 pm
Was just reading an article about a looming "UK mortgage crisis."  It talked about two-year mortgages? What is that?  It said "people that bought a house when mortgages were 1%-2% interest, are now going to be paying 6%."

Does UK not have 15 or 30 year mortgages? Does it force everyone into an ARM or 5/1 or something that requires refinancing in only 2 years?

Sounds very odd for those of us in different situations.  (Not gonna lie; I feel like I'm stealing, having locked in 2.25% for a 15-year mortgage on my house.)
Well, you probably paid the bank a 1-2K "mortgage origination fee", so the bank doesn't care. They've already sold your mortgage, but kept your origination fee.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on June 23, 2023, 01:36:59 pm
Also, no doctors in the UK (for a couple days, anyways):
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/23/junior-doctors-strike-13-july-england-five-days (https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/23/junior-doctors-strike-13-july-england-five-days)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on June 23, 2023, 04:27:29 pm
I'm not too familiar with all current (and recent) mortgage deals, but it may be that it's "25 year motgage with 2 years fixed-rate", then it normally switches to track BoE rate (plus an amount) unless a renegotiated/trasfered deal is made, assuming that such a switch is actually possible... which, right now, it isn't.

But expectations for everyone, two years ago, are that it would be best-of-all-worlds. Or close to it, at the risk of the locked-in fixed rate was undermined by the 'dynamic' rates that could have been had at the time.

As with all financial 'instruments' (both internal to the FinTech industry and made available to 'investors', and of course those borrowing), it's a gamble that prices/etc behave in a certain way. A 'hump' happening to everyone else whilst you're happily within your prearranged constant liabilities, then hitting a handy trough around the time you have to work out what you're doing afterwards.

(And, as with all betting, it's extremely unlikely that the House loses out. They're probably covered by their own 'safety-bets', every which-way, against having presented an inadvertently far too-advantageous offer to the everyday Joes that they 'help'.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on July 03, 2023, 04:15:32 am
Labour led by ‘right-wing, illiberal group’, senior MP says
A ‘right-wing, illiberal faction’ has taken over Labour and is engaging in a ‘witch-hunt’, Jon Cruddas has claimed.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/labour-led-by-right-wing-illiberal-group-senior-mp-says-351884/

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seems credible (at first glance, which is all I've given it so far) from what I've been seeing. Anyone more situated to have personal knowledge care to refute this?

EDIT: I'd probably use the adjectives "oligarchic" or "corporate" rather than far-right as the link does, though illiberal does some a fit.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on July 03, 2023, 04:52:19 am
I seem to recall that The London Economic was very tied to stances that are antithetical to those held by Starmer (e.g. Brexit, fossil fuels, the matter of Corbyn), so they would probably attack his leadership on basic principle.

Can't say if they're also right about this or not. I've now developed a pavlovian aversion to anyone claiming "witch hunt", but I can still imagine it to be true rather than a more mundane deflection-defense. Given that official Labour lines are that they're out to win the next election directly, not aiming for coalition, there's probably nuggets of truth. Yet (either way) there'll be a lot more background to the issue that we're not made privvy to. Various parties have been ejecting/letting go various members for a while and for a variety of reasons, recently, and I don't see long standing membership being a reason to stay the otherwise righteous hand (nor reliable proof against 'illiberal machinations', should that be the case).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on July 03, 2023, 05:06:43 am
though illiberal does some a fit.

Does it, though? The very essence of Labour and the labour movement is anti-liberal. "Oligarchic" and "corporate" are pro-liberal adjectives.
 

I've now developed a pavlovian aversion to anyone claiming "witch hunt"

Why are you staging this witch hunt on witch hunts
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on July 03, 2023, 06:10:32 am
though illiberal does some a fit.

Does it, though? The very essence of Labour and the labour movement is anti-liberal. "Oligarchic" and "corporate" are pro-liberal adjectives.

Liberal in the context of British media has a lot of overlap with the American version, where it's associated with social progress and individual liberty. He's anti-social liberty in that he's not socially progressive or in favour of things like public protest, immigration or refugees. He's also been making efforts to purge the socialists from the party, despite them being the people that founded the original Labour party.

He is also pretty pro-corporation. Increasing regulations and empowering our various regulatory bodies to better enforce existing regulations has not been part of his policy rhetoric despire the fact that it's desperately needed.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on July 04, 2023, 04:30:45 am
The London Economic is a labour rag from what I've seen. It's actually been quite favorable to Sir Keir in the past. I think that the purge expanded past Corbynites has rattled parts of labour who feel Starmer is unlikely to stop there.

Sorry Starver, I have to disagree. This is a long standing pattern of foolish and short sighted behaviour of this sort in the previous few decades among left of center moderates. I say foolish because of how it is self defeating.

This is because liberalism is like a fortress of the moderate. If moderates commit to investiture of this fortress, it is true they may cast it down. This is more easily accomplished with allies of convenience. However, once the garrison are trampled, in chains, or banished the moderates then find themselves in a fortress with a broken wall and among allies no more.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on July 04, 2023, 05:01:39 am
Sorry Starver, I have to disagree.
Strangely, I don't see where you disagree with the thoughts behind that initial response. Maybe it was because I was somewhat equivocal (or so I thought), and you read my flip-side caveats as my main point. That'd be my fault. Or not understanding/comprehending the article enough when I first read it, to respond to the wrong bits.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on July 04, 2023, 05:07:51 am
Oops, sorry Starver. I read Scriver's sarcastic quote and took that as reflective of your post. My mistake, I should have re-read it for better context.

Grim Portent has accurately clarified for me what I meant by the posting about Starmer, thank you.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 05, 2023, 09:27:54 pm
Why are you staging this witch hunt on witch hunts
Who will witch hunt the witch hunts?

Also yeah Keir has done two purges already, first anyone who was critical of Israel (https://jewishcurrents.org/the-jews-expelled-from-labour-over-antisemitism) then anyone who was pro-labour (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/27/sam-tarry-sacked-labour-frontbench-rail-strike-picket-line-keir-starmer)

It's reflected in the diminishing relevance of the labour unions in the labour party as big corporate donors become the labour party's patron (https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/who-funds-labour-keir-starmers-party-took-more-from-private-donors-and-companies-than-trade-unions-last-year-4055156)

Basically just wants to return to the Blair days of "we're liberal in the sense of subsidising corporations but not in the sense of liberty, equality or fairness but we'll wave a rainbow flag lol"
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on July 11, 2023, 09:07:53 am
Speaking of subsidizing corporations:
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/11/economy/uk-pension-funds-reform-hunt/index.html (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/11/economy/uk-pension-funds-reform-hunt/index.html)

Risky move, tying people's retirement savings to less-certain investments. There is a good reason why pension funds invest the way they traditionally do...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on July 11, 2023, 09:15:03 am
Basically just wants to return to the Blair days of "we're liberal in the sense of subsidising corporations but not in the sense of liberty, equality or fairness but we'll wave a rainbow flag lol"

It's realpolitik. Conservatives feel they have to posture themselves as less of dicks than they are to get elected, whilst Labour apparently feel they have to try and be bigger dicks to get elected.

I understand the perspective, but I'm very much not a fan of realpolitik and think politicians should be trying to convince the public of their arguments, not adapting their arguments to the public. But I guess it's an inevitability when you have only a few large parties. Is yet another reason we need to scrap first past the post already -_-
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on July 11, 2023, 11:08:21 am
I'm somewhat fond of the idea that Legislative representatives are representatives of their constituents, thus the politician must follow the people, not the other way around.
... it's kinda hard to follow when the average constituents are racist bigots. Or at least, they're the LOUDEST constituents.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on July 11, 2023, 01:52:50 pm
I'd say the way it works is you aren't electing someone to represent your views, you're electing for them because they represent your views. It's a key difference in what comes prior.

Or to phrase it another way, you're voting for them because you think their views are the best option. Ideally the views of each politician should be relatively stable, it's the electorate that should be changing. The politician shouldn't be convincing you on the campaign that they already represent your views/philosophy/ideology but instead arguing what theirs are and why their views are the best option. So basically, convincing you to follow their views, rather than adapting theirs to be yours.

Of course, this requires a diverse selection of candidates pushing against each other in the argument. Hence, we need to yeet First Past The Post.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on July 11, 2023, 07:24:47 pm
If you can't even get rid of the Conservative party, how exactly are you going to get rid of First Past the Post?

Or: How do you outvote First Past the Post in a First Past the Post election?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on July 11, 2023, 07:41:20 pm
If you can't even get rid of the Conservative party, how exactly are you going to get rid of First Past the Post?

Or: How do you outvote First Past the Post in a First Past the Post election?

There was a referendum (I think?) on an Alternative Vote system as part of the Lib Dems conditions of being part of a coalition with the Tories after the 2010 election that failed.

Then again, considering how poorly the Lib Dems came out of that coalition it probably speaks more to their incompetence than the Brit’s desire to keep FttP.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on July 11, 2023, 08:15:28 pm
2011. And it was a referendum that the government had no position on, given that the Con/Lib partners in the government were diametrically opposed. (Though as arguably many voted Leave to spite the Cameron-governmnent's official position to Remain, it's not exactly simple to match the result with such clear alignment of position.)

There was also much fuss by the more vehemently anti-FPTP crowd about AV being non-optimal, compared with STV or other more-proportional voting methods, which may have soured the resulting desire for change. I don't think you can reliably quantify the degrees of any of this, though. There just weren't enough proper "flip the system" messages being sent around, which have since become a standard feature of campaigning for elections/etc in the decade since.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 13, 2023, 02:03:46 am
Of course, this requires a diverse selection of candidates pushing against each other in the argument. Hence, we need to yeet First Past The Post.
Still can't believe we had a chance to reform it in 2011 but it failed ;-;
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2023, 10:17:33 am
Anyone find it weird that there have been a lot of strikes in the UK recently, but I've barely heard about any of them at all on in news (sarcasm)? Really strange..
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on July 13, 2023, 11:09:10 am
Your press ain't Free.
Although the American Press also avoids such reporting whenever possible. When was the last time you heard of the Writers Strike? Oh, when the Actors decided they were going to strike.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Criptfeind on July 13, 2023, 11:23:04 am
"The mainstream media isn't covering this major new piece, as proven by the fact that there hasn't been an article on it for at least 20 minutes" is the weirdest take I've seen all week.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on July 13, 2023, 01:30:31 pm
Yeah, tends to be pretty much front-of-the-bulletin whenever there is(/will be tomorrow) a major strike-like action from nurses, doctors, train-drivers, teachers, postmen, driving examiners or even reporters.

The official government line today, by the way is: "Ok, tell you what, you can all have a raise[1], now shut up and don't strike because we still won't discuss it with you." Yeah, right. Some unions are suggesting their members accept it, but not sure how many will vote that way when asked.

[1] 5-7%ish, depending upon sector. Never mind that beyond the paypackets of those public sectors (which have already heen trailing practical cost of living increases for years) everything is already 8%+ more expensive, on average. I'm not involved in this issue, directoy, but I'm not entirely enthused on their behalf.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Lidku on July 13, 2023, 07:55:37 pm
Your press ain't Free.

Um, I'm not Br'tish. I'm American.  :-[
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on July 14, 2023, 04:51:37 am
Your press ain't Free.

Um, I'm not Br'tish. I'm American.  :-[
At least as right as he would have been had you been British, then... ;)

(With open apologies for bombarding EJ with that latest PM of mine, from the China thread, that I sent trying to describe the broadcast[1] news ecosystem in the UK, with particular (but not sole) reference to the BBC. And not really delving into Broadsheets/Tabloids (was sooo tempted to link to Yes Prime Minister's take on that, but I never gave myself the chance). Of course, I'm comparatively ignorant about US media. Though I get the gist, I think. It's probably mostly oligarchical string-pulling (not sure how NPR works, but the rest seem to be ultimately funded by those with financial interests, maybe indirectly on behalf of/allying with the political ones) whereas the traditional broadcasters over here tend to be swayed neither by ministers nor money. Possibly more swayed against them, really.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on July 14, 2023, 07:32:38 pm
Lads, we've got a new conspiracy theory:

The economy wasn't fucked by Truss, that was just coincidence. The pensions over-leveraged government bonds and nobody wanted to buy them for... reasons, and the Tories used that to oust Truss.
 (https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/14zv1tr/exclusive_downing_street_is_holding_talks_about/js00ob8/)
EDIT: Oh yeah, and if anyone remembers the "Ree kids are identifying as cats" thing, the school was  given a glowing review by OFSTED (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rye-college-school-in-cat-pupil-row-gets-glowing-ofsted-report-6jcqdbdrz)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 15, 2023, 08:46:01 am
Probably just more shite being peddled because the government wants to (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-13/uk-government-looks-into-consolidating-private-pension-funds) force pension funds to sell to larger pension funds or buy into startup stocks. (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-plans-unlock-97b-pension-050000920.html) The gov's taken the position that less competition is good for a market, same as they did to the legal, insurance, finance and accounting firms, so as far as they're concerned pension funds should behave like hedge funds - throwing around loadsa money to boost them stonks. Of course this logic does not stand up to two seconds of thought. A pension fund is for building peoples' pensions. It should be up to people to choose if they want a riskier pension fund that could collapse and leave them without a retirement, or a pension fund that would have modest ROI but less likelihood of failure.

Quote from: https://todayswillsandprobate.co.uk/hunt-urged-by-uk-pension-funds-not-to-force-retirement-schemes-to-invest-in-riskier-assets/
Chancellor Jeremy Hunt has been urged by the Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association (PLSA) not to force retirement schemes to invest in riskier and complex assets, according to The Times.       

It’s said the chancellor’s preference would be for Britain’s “highly fragmented” pensions market — which the report states has roughly 28,000 defined contribution schemes — to be consolidated so as to boost investment in UK companies.

Last year, up to 35 million savers had access to the PLSA’s Retirement Living Standards through their pension scheme’s communications. In total, 124 organisations were using the Standards, including over 100 pensions schemes.

Hunt is expected to give more details in his annual Mansion House speech to City of London grandees in July, the report said.

He has also “left open the idea of ‘mandating’ pension funds to make certain investments if he cannot achieve the kind of consolidation in the industry he is seeking”.

Nigel Peaple, director of policy and research with the Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association, told The Times:

    “Trustees are adamant that their role is to look after the savings of their members.

    Trustees are open minded about what we can do collectively to help the UK economy but it is essential that this operates in the interests of savers.”

In the same article, Hunt said, speaking on a visit to Washington, that “Australia and Canada have found a way of making sure they get better returns by consolidating their pension fund industry in a way that makes it easier for them to invest in unlisted and potentially higher-growth vehicles”.
It is criminal that such an economically illiterate party gets to market itself as the pro-business party and the public believes it -_-

Also don't get the whole "I identify as a cat" drama. When I was a kid half the people in my class identified as a giraffe, a lion or whatever. I went from snake to spider, the only lasting effect it had on me was a strong desire to live in a cave like a trapdoor spider. NO VISITORS ALLOWED UNLESS YOU'RE EDIBLE
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on July 15, 2023, 10:12:44 am
So much for laissez-faire, eh.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on July 15, 2023, 10:19:59 am
Also don't get the whole "I identify as a cat" drama. When I was a kid half the people in my class identified as a giraffe, a lion or whatever. I went from snake to spider, the only lasting effect it had on me was a strong desire to live in a cave like a trapdoor spider. NO VISITORS ALLOWED UNLESS YOU'RE EDIBLE
Ah, but you see nowadays the trann- err... "trans people" (Who, let's face it, are actually just mentally ill and/or attention seekers despite what the scientists say because they just want job security so they make stuff up) exist and want to indoctrinate and rape our kids, so we have to make mountains out of molehills, even if the molehills don't exist, to preserve the future of Western CivilisationTM
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 15, 2023, 10:24:42 am
Also don't get the whole "I identify as a cat" drama. When I was a kid half the people in my class identified as a giraffe, a lion or whatever. I went from snake to spider, the only lasting effect it had on me was a strong desire to live in a cave like a trapdoor spider. NO VISITORS ALLOWED UNLESS YOU'RE EDIBLE
Ah, but you see nowadays the trann- err... "trans people" (Who, let's face it, are actually just mentally ill and/or attention seekers despite what the scientists say because they just want job security so they make stuff up) exist and want to indoctrinate and rape our kids, so we have to make mountains out of molehills, even if the molehills don't exist, to preserve the future of Western CivilisationTM

And the Earth is Flat™.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on July 15, 2023, 10:32:28 am
Pretty sure the earth is within a cube of time, dude.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 15, 2023, 03:11:51 pm
Pretty sure the earth is within a cube of time, dude.

I-Inside a-a-a cube?! That's why my stomach has been killing me all week?! I am going to the hospital ASAP!
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on July 15, 2023, 04:21:45 pm
Yeah, Britain is about as fucked up as the US.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 15, 2023, 09:18:28 pm
And the Earth is Flat™.
Actually the Earth is a Fiat car
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on July 21, 2023, 12:23:38 am
Well, by-election day came and went, Tories managed to keep Boris’ vacated seat by the seat of their pants (495 votes) while the Lib Dems overcame a 19,000 vote Tory majority to claim… a seat in the West Country, whereas Labour over came a 20,000 vote Tory majority to win the Selby and Aintsby seat.

Not as embarrassing as it could’ve been, but acceptably so, I suppose.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on July 21, 2023, 02:16:53 am
They set their expectations at "we're probably going to lose them all", so it's a relative win for them to barely scrape through with Uxbridge. But hardly time for actual champagne parties at CPHQ, you'd think (though I wouldn't rule them out).

By-elections tend to be Protest Votes, especially against the current governing party (where it's theirs to lose/not win), but the swings can be greater or lesser.

Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 21, 2023, 11:22:22 pm
It is so lamentable the Labour party chose to eliminate Corbyn just to replace him with Keir. Labour party would be sailing to an easy supermajority if they actually offered something different than "we are the party that accepts megacorp donations" vs "we are also the party that accepts megacorp donations"
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on July 22, 2023, 12:29:09 am
Not allowed left-wing folk to be in charge brah. New New Labour ftw.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on July 22, 2023, 03:57:42 am
It is so lamentable the Labour party chose to eliminate Corbyn just to replace him with Keir. Labour party would be sailing to an easy supermajority if they actually offered something different than "we are the party that accepts megacorp donations" vs "we are also the party that accepts megacorp donations"

At least in the United States, our political parties are better at hiding that they're both "the party that accepts megacorp donations".
What is REALLY going in the United States is that a few politicians are finally realizing the crisis over global warming and trying to reduce carbon emissions by not buying fossil fuels.  That makes the Oil Companies VERY unhappy, so they fund the crap out of anyone that can keep the US buying fossil fuels.

Also look at NASA and the MegaCorp(s) that supply them.  For fun, track how NASA opened up its projects to more than just SpaceX and how Musk heavily backed the Republicans.  I'm curious which started "first", but it's clear that Bezos and smaller companies have benefited from Esucks not having the same loving relationship he had with Trumpy.  Of course, SpaceX is too big and imbedded in NASA, but you can make a parallel to the Oil Companies above.

And of course, there is the BIG Megacorporate interests that literally nobody ever talks about: Pharmaceutical companies.  They fund the crap out of everybody.

Literally all the Culture Wars bullshit is just white noise so people don't get what is going on.

Not allowed left-wing folk to be in charge brah. New New Labour ftw.
What even is "left-wing"? Sounds like a smoke screen so nobody says "workers rights", "properly funded services", or "tax the rich".
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on July 22, 2023, 06:59:53 am
Keir[1] is still pushing (more than his opposite number) Workers Rights, funded services and rich-taxes[3], it's not like he's Total Tory like some would say.

"Dissapointingly realistic", perhaps, for the more radical left of the "nationalise everything, bleed the rich dry, state-funded everything for everyone else" type. Of course the balance of underpromising (with the hope of overdelivering) might not help him defeat the more populist promises from the types who go the other way by default.

But it's a long way to the likely election. Like tyre-changing strategies in F1, no doubt everyone's working to what they think is the best pacing (or the worst in respect of their opponents) when it comes to making radical announcements or just coasting a bit to not fly off at a curve. (With an eye on whether adverse weather wets the course, or the sudden change of circumstances that puts into effect the restrictions/opportunities of having the Safety Car sent out for some unpredictable reason. To over-extend the analogy.)

The chances are even not that unreasonable that it won't be Starmer pitted against Sunak. Without making any predictions  about which one (if not both) ends up irrelevent. Far more fun to consider that than to dive too deeply into the waxes and wanings of the currently assumed preparations for battle. ;)


[1] Leader Keir, not "Baby Of The House[2]" Keir, just elected.

[2] They keep on saying "Officially known as.." I'm fairly sure this is a relative neologism, but I don t care to check that.

[3] Fewer rich-exemptions, at least.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on July 22, 2023, 09:36:59 am
It is so lamentable the Labour party chose to eliminate Corbyn just to replace him with Keir. Labour party would be sailing to an easy supermajority if they actually offered something different than "we are the party that accepts megacorp donations" vs "we are also the party that accepts megacorp donations"

At least in the United States, our political parties are better at hiding that they're both "the party that accepts megacorp donations".
What is REALLY going in the United States is that a few politicians are finally realizing the crisis over global warming and trying to reduce carbon emissions by not buying fossil fuels.  That makes the Oil Companies VERY unhappy, so they fund the crap out of anyone that can keep the US buying fossil fuels.

Also look at NASA and the MegaCorp(s) that supply them.  For fun, track how NASA opened up its projects to more than just SpaceX and how Musk heavily backed the Republicans.  I'm curious which started "first", but it's clear that Bezos and smaller companies have benefited from Esucks not having the same loving relationship he had with Trumpy.  Of course, SpaceX is too big and imbedded in NASA, but you can make a parallel to the Oil Companies above.

And of course, there is the BIG Megacorporate interests that literally nobody ever talks about: Pharmaceutical companies.  They fund the crap out of everybody.

Literally all the Culture Wars bullshit is just white noise so people don't get what is going on.

Not allowed left-wing folk to be in charge brah. New New Labour ftw.
What even is "left-wing"? Sounds like a smoke screen so nobody says "workers rights", "properly funded services", or "tax the rich".

Basically. Jeremy Corbyn was an old school Labour guy, an actual socialist. He came to power as Labour leader essentially by accident, as I think he needed to be endorsed by a certain number of Labour MPs i order to be put forward, and if I remember correctly, that only really happened so there was a spread of views in the leadership contest.

Evidently the party membership are still old school too, as they elected him their leader. The media essentially manufactured an antisemitism smear against him (despite te fact he’s campaigned for Jews in various ways for a long time, though he has also associated with folks who don’t like Jews, and is very well known for pushing for Palestine’s rights) which eventually resulted in Labor having their worst election results in 84 years and him standing down.

Now we’re back to the New Labour types that are Tory-lite, and appear to also be trying to remove old school socialists from the party.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on July 22, 2023, 10:16:31 am
Does make me wonder if we're going to see a new OG Labour style party crop up some time.

I've seen a few movements like that, but the party's been more "X issue, oh and we're socialist", and often they're stillborn because for some reason they don't seem to vet their candidates so they wind up with Tom the Socialist who's also got a history of going on Twitter and spewing racism.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 23, 2023, 09:52:47 am
Does make me wonder if we're going to see a new OG Labour style party crop up some time.

I've seen a few movements like that, but the party's been more "X issue, oh and we're socialist", and often they're stillborn because for some reason they don't seem to vet their candidates so they wind up with Tom the Socialist who's also got a history of going on Twitter and spewing racism.
It's not impossible, stuff like the Brexit Party or UKIP show how a single unifying issue can cause a party to appear ex nihilo with national appeal rather than the usual problem of independents being hyper-localised to the point of being unknown one post-code over. There would just need to be some issue a party could form around, like nationalising energy supplier companies or rail companies, that could then form the kernel for more ambitious ideas like perhaps poor people are people
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on August 14, 2023, 02:50:25 pm
Looks like the PSNI[1] data pretty much definitely is in the hands of those it should not be (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66479818). It sounded very much like those concerned were just claiming possession for the lulz(/"make your enemy nervous" sort of thing), though of course it would have always need to be assumed that they might. But now either:

Being of the Computer Security type person myself (though nowhere near the same field of corporate responsibility), I can imagine how easy this episode is to happen (by accident, I'm assuming[2]). At least could, without actual sanity checks during pre-release reviews, but I honestly can only guess what range of SOPs/P&Ps govern those involved and how they'd fail to catch this.


[1] I still keep thinking they mean NS&I, when it gets mentioned...
[2] Though no more useful an occasion for a (seperate?) deliberate exfiltration of data to be masked behind the public error(/'error').
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 14, 2023, 04:35:35 pm
Looks like the PSNI[1] data pretty much definitely is in the hands of those it should not be (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66479818). It sounded very much like those concerned were just claiming possession for the lulz(/"make your enemy nervous" sort of thing), though of course it would have always need to be assumed that they might. But now either:
  • ...they did have it all along, or
  • ...they didn't, but they finally got it from someone who'd grabbed it (from someone who'd grabbed it, and repeat as necessary) originally, or
  • ...it isn't them, but someone ("...who grabbed it from...", * N) has a sick enough sense of humour to do this, which is practically the same as the above point/may also result in it.

Being of the Computer Security type person myself (though nowhere near the same field of corporate responsibility), I can imagine how easy this episode is to happen (by accident, I'm assuming[2]). At least could, without actual sanity checks during pre-release reviews, but I honestly can only guess what range of SOPs/P&Ps govern those involved and how they'd fail to catch this.


[1] I still keep thinking they mean NS&I, when it gets mentioned...
[2] Though no more useful an occasion for a (seperate?) deliberate exfiltration of data to be masked behind the public error(/'error').
People occasionally leak things out of casual incompetence (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/27/mod-accidentally-sends-classified-emails-meant-for-us-to-russian-ally)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on August 14, 2023, 06:44:25 pm
Yeah, I noted that too (either the UK or the US versions of it, and probably any NATO force could have done the same[1]).

Different form of incompetence, though. Almost certainly ".ml" was (perhaps multuple times, but historically) typoed into contact lists/target address variables.

I'm going to hazard a guess that the PSNI error was one individual working with the private spreadsheet(s) on the internal opendata request handling system, totalled up the relevent subtotals in line with the request, assigned the task record to a colleague/superior with his "answer" and the documents attached with the comment suggesting it could be checked before release. Maybe it was checked, but it was certainly published without removing the "auxilliary" attachments. Really, should be set up with clear eventual-public and strictly role-based internal and private fields, in any such system, where the source data can be there for internal record/review but nevee in danger of being sent to whatever CMS front-end they must have sent both the "There are ### employees, of whom ### are officers, ### are administrative, ... etc" bit and the 'internal evidence' for the figure. So easy to do, if you haven't (so easily... well, a SMOP) already anticipated the error. Which is essentially a human error, but should not be considered a single human error, but a series of them because some form of answer-auditing surely takes place when an organisation such as them has an official information-passing department.

If it's just two, or one, person in a cubby-hole at the far end of some room with 'business centre' vibes, then they're probably overloaded with all the various disparatw data processing needs they must be lumbered with. If it was an intern, let loose on the request (and the means to publish it) to not bother more experienced workers, then it's a managerial failure through and through to not keep tabs on their ability to do it right.

My experience on the edge (supporting) a data-heavy business, and even modifying the databases (good old LotusNotes, practically vbScript+database... and the far more deadpan but internally powerful Statistical Analysis System software which I didn't use so much myself) suggests to me where a proper setup should have been able to prevent this, but I imagine there was actually more emails being forwarded, replied to, CC:ed to those too much outside the internal processes to appreciate that "Yes, please publish this" didn't mean to include the attached document(s) as well as whatever summary temp.employee.number596@psni.pol.uk had just compiled and had corrected for misused punctuation.


...I prevaricate. I can make errors as much as the next person. I could tell you tales of how I lost (i.e. deleted/formatted) data, more than gave it away, so don't get me wrong. But this sort of thing is surely a very obvious lesson already prelearnt well before it became this total security breakdown. Even if only with easily available passwording of all spreadsheets by default. Which would have also helped with the 'lost' laptop, simultaneously mentioned, with much less data on it, but accompanied with a force-issue radio handset which I hope was remotely scrambled or caused all other similar units to be re-encoded to make it useless.

(Me? Have a (semi-/previously-)professional opinion on any of this? ...what makes you think that?  8) I mean, technically I was paid to think about such things. Though, in hindsight, not as much as I perhaps should have been. 'Nuff said. And now I'm imagining all the things everyone is imagining I just meant by that. And how you're then mostly wrong, or the wrong sort of mundane... :P )


[1] Two letters==ccTLD per nation; three letters==gTLD by function[2]; more than three letters is the latest ICANN mess[3] in which Amazon (.amazon, .aws, .bot, .talk, and many others I can't remember) isn't even the biggest 'offender' in this regard. I know it could escape a glance/be easily typoed[5], but ".mus" could have handled ".museum" and ".xxx" means we (or at least those that may use it) don't need ".adult" as well to confuse matters.
[2] And, in .mil, .edu, .gov etc should perhaps be considered US (c.f. ".mod.uk", ".ac.uk"/".sch.uk" and ".gov.uk"), certainly the .mil and .gov[4] (supposedly) entirely restricted to US interests.
[3] I have no problem with internationalised versions into non-Latin codepages (perhaps with an equivalent (ab)brevity if possible) but... rampant commercialism has the tail wagging the dog, making a subtle system into a monstrous chimera. When's the last time you used (or saw) a .dating address. Or .mba. Or .ooo(???), .pink, .rodeo, .skin, ...? (Highly specific interests, especially if you decide you need to register beneath all of those, for branding reasons.) Do we really need a .vodka domain?
[4] Hmm, luckily safer as there's no .go, .gv or .ov; .gu is Guam (US), .gi Gibraltar (UK), but the likes of .gw/.gy could be missed by eye almost as easily as mil=>ml can be, with any additional transliteration on top of that adds to the tyop-induced error.
[5] If only they'd initially thought of "graycode-spacing" all the abbreviations in establishing or cribbing from the orignating ISO, so that a single error of any kind never changes one valid thing into another valid thing. But you'd probably need to have started with 3+ letters to differentiate every nation (with compromises that some nations might be left with unintuitive .abbrvs (or dialect/local-lingo-based ones[6]) because of other nations - Niger and Nigeria for example (.ne and .ng, as is; .ni is nicuragua, of course)
[6] Ok, so we're all fairly familiar with .ch, .cz, .za, etc, and know why .ki cannot have been .ci like you'd perhaps guess.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on August 15, 2023, 08:10:58 am
I've slightly revised my view on exactly what went wrong, based upon this separate failure (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66510136), if it was similarly caused. But still it seems that there's no sanity checks / firewalling between inner-data processing and outer-data summarising.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: martinuzz on August 15, 2023, 08:14:46 am
Yeah that leak has caused some serious security concerns for those whose data was leaked. I suspect there's going to be a lot of forced relocations and new identities for protection and safety, with all drama involved of being dead to basically most of your old life and friends.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on September 15, 2023, 01:47:17 am
Drivers have been warned not to rely on sat-navs for the speed limit on residential roads in Wales when it is reduced to 20mph from 30mph on Sunday. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66774380)
...or, you know, actually know the rules of the road and be aware what big signs with "20" in a red circle means.

(It mentions road signs below, but some people don't seem to know the road laws anyway. And, despite Scotland being said to not yet having decided on making it the default, I can tell you that many central-belt settlements are explicitly 20mph already, and not just with "20's Plenty" unenforcable nag-signs.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on September 17, 2023, 10:29:37 pm
She’s still at it (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-66836347).

Two choice quotes:

Quote
She is expected to say that communication "could have been better and the operation better honed" but also that she was unable to implement her plans because there was a "powerful force comprising the economic and political elite, corporatists, parts of the media and even a section of the Conservative parliamentary party" opposed to her ideas.

Maybe they were opposed to the ideas because they knew they wouldn’t work? Funny how that works eh.

Quote
Responding to her speech, the Liberal Democrat's deputy leader Daisy Cooper said: "Liz Truss giving a speech on economic growth is like an arsonist giving a talk on fire safety."

I consider her tenure to be surmised by the following hypothetical:

Aide: “okay Ms. Truss, this is your new ministerial phone,” *aide turns to pick up phone*

“You should use this for all offic-“ *aide turns back*

“Why is everything on fire?”

Ms Truss: “a combination of economic and political elites did it and ran away!”
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 22, 2023, 09:09:11 am
Tbh I prefer the wisdom the head of Lettuce can provide based off of its experience as a national vegetable
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on September 22, 2023, 11:55:38 am
The need for more reliable leaders is just the tip of the iceberg...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Frumple on September 22, 2023, 12:29:17 pm
Any case, I'm pretty sure I'd trust an arsonist giving a talk on fire safety more than truss on economic growth. There's value in black hat expertise when it comes to preventative measures, y'know? That statement's being unfair to arsonists :P
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on September 26, 2023, 09:09:23 am
Oh our British cousins, aren't you cute?
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/londons-top-cop-seeks-protections-police-armed-officers-103458939 (https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/londons-top-cop-seeks-protections-police-armed-officers-103458939)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Caz on September 26, 2023, 12:18:43 pm
Drivers have been warned not to rely on sat-navs for the speed limit on residential roads in Wales when it is reduced to 20mph from 30mph on Sunday. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66774380)
...or, you know, actually know the rules of the road and be aware what big signs with "20" in a red circle means.

People actually read those?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on September 26, 2023, 03:02:24 pm
She’s still at it (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-66836347).

Two choice quotes:

Quote
She is expected to say that communication "could have been better and the operation better honed" but also that she was unable to implement her plans because there was a "powerful force comprising the economic and political elite, corporatists, parts of the media and even a section of the Conservative parliamentary party" opposed to her ideas.

Maybe they were opposed to the ideas because they knew they wouldn’t work? Funny how that works eh.

Quote
Responding to her speech, the Liberal Democrat's deputy leader Daisy Cooper said: "Liz Truss giving a speech on economic growth is like an arsonist giving a talk on fire safety."

I consider her tenure to be surmised by the following hypothetical:

Aide: “okay Ms. Truss, this is your new ministerial phone,” *aide turns to pick up phone*

“You should use this for all offic-“ *aide turns back*

“Why is everything on fire?”

Ms Truss: “a combination of economic and political elites did it and ran away!”
Ok, that was a hilariously accurate analogy to Truss's Premiership.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 28, 2023, 05:45:36 am
Ok, that was a hilariously accurate analogy to Truss's Premiership.

Liz Truss pulls up free marketly in an Aston Martin. The rolls-royce engine roars as she revs the great metal beast powered on the blood of dinosaurs and the tears of weak effete liberals, who do not understand her big cock Thatcher energy. The sound of cool britannia reverberated through the Tesco petrol station as she exited her vehicle and raised two middle fingers in the direction of Moscow. "LIBERAL ELITES COULD BE HERE," Liz Truss said, pulling out her cricket bat to assuage her (merited) fear of liberal elites. "I'VE NOT BEEN HERE BEFORE. LIBERAL ELITES COULD BE ANYWHERE." She finished purchasing a head of lettuce before returning to her aston martin. "WITH AN ASTON MARTIN YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE," she said, speeding off into the sunset.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 04, 2023, 07:04:52 am
Nigel Farage & British Muslims: no one safe from arbitrary debanking (https://www.aljazeera.com/podcasts/2023/9/21/debanking-how-uk-muslims-found-common-cause-with-nigel-farage)

Pretty good listen into what I've complained about for years. People talk all this shit about how insane PRC is for social credit systems, but then don't notice how in our own countries the withdrawal of payment services, insurance services, telecoms e.t.c. can essentially force someone out of participating in urban society by denying them the ability to use their own cash or access services necessary to travel/work/live. And when these companies are consolidated, especially in banking, if you get shut out by a network of them you end up having no alternative, no recourse. The chap in question got screwed over by the UAE for his activism and yet all the western banks sided with the UAE government. Whilst NatWest lost against Nigel Farage, loads of chaps get debanked and lack the clout to endure being targeted
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 12, 2023, 04:22:12 am
A headline that you might not have expected, at the moment, Cameron gives Tories an additional seat in Scotland (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67087840) sort of

(It'll be interesting to follow this forward. Historically, other than SNP it was strong Labour. For the future, boundaries are changing anyway so what the Lesmahagow disposition of the vote might be could be important. Right now, it's pretty much just an inconsequential change that probably says more about the person than the people.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 21, 2023, 06:12:06 am
...hmmm. The solution to the problem of "up to seven recycling bins" is to... legislate to require a given additional bin (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67176392). I don't see the joined-upness of that, at all.

And I actually thought I'd check various kerbside systems, the other day, for semi-random[1] UK locations, and here's a roughly reworded subsample of that:
Birmingham: Standard bin, Blue bin (cardboard/paper in insert, plastic/metal/glass in main) and/or Blue box (paper)+Green box(plastic/metal/glass)
Cardiff: General, Recycling(?? must be usual things apart from->), Food, Glass, Garden
Chelmsford: Black (non-recyclable), Grey (food waste), White sack (paper), Separate white sack (cardboard), Brown (garden), Green (cans, glass, small electrical, clothing), Clear sack (plastics)
Dover: Grey wheelie (non-recyclable), Kitchen-caddy (food), Blue-lid (glass, tins, plastics), Black box (paper, cardboard), By subscription (garden waste)
Edinburgh: Grey (non-recyclables), Brown (gardening waste), Other grey (food, no liquids or packaging), Box (glass/small electricals/;separately packaged batteries and fabric waste) Green (mixed paper/cardboard/plastic containers/'tins and cans and foils')
Glasgow: Standard non-recyclables, Blue (paper/cardboard/plastic/cans), Purple (glass), Brown (garden and food waste - houses), Grey (food waste - flats)
Pickering: Black-and-green (non-recyc), Green (plastics/tins), Black container (glass), Blue (paper/card), Brown (garden)
Lancaster: Grey-lid (non-recyc), Red-lid (cans, plastic, glass), Yellow-lid (paper-cardboard), Green-lid (garden - subscription)
Sherringham: Grey (general), Green (glass, cans, foils, plastics, cardboard/paper), Brown (garden, christmas trees)
Thurso: Green (general), Blue ('recycling' - to become two different containers next year), Brown (garden - subscription only)
Truro: No regular bins(? ...but seagull-proof sacks available), Orange bag (cardboard), Black box (glass, textiles), Red bag (metal, plastics), Blue bag (paper)

((As one of my regular walks takes me past properties in three seperate districts/council-regions, I get to see three slightly different 'bin regimes'. Though none of them either excessive nor, to my layperson eyes, insufficiently segregated, for all their differences. None of the three currently have Food Waste (unless it's in the garden-waste bin, where there is one/it's allowed/subscribed by the local scenario), but I really don't know how much food waste I generate myself. Practically nothing, once I've rinsed out packaging enough to qualify it for whichever of the three bins I currently might roll out myself and put out the odd scrap for wildlife. I can't see me using an actual food-bin at all.))

[1] ...nearest to where I 'threw my darts' when trying to hit various regions. But as I'm neither a brilliant shot nor a totally wild and unpredictable one, probably not as representative either as I'd hope or intend.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 28, 2023, 12:30:11 pm
Former SNP leadership candidate Ash Regan defects to the Alba Party (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67248844).

My favourite bit is Humza Yousaf’s quote:

“Not a particularly great loss to the party.”

Despite all her claims about wanting to bring unity to the party during her leadership bid, evidently she’s unable to get behind the current leadership. Not urgent enough in terms of wanting independence, which… considering she was wanting the same kind of thing that has recently been supported at a conference (winning a majority of seats at the next UK GE is de facto support for independence) makes it look like she’s throwing her toys out the pram because she didn’t get the big job.

I never knew who she was until she quit in protest over the gender reform bill, and consequently didn’t particularly like her. I liked her even less when she said she would end the agreement with the Greens if she got in, and wouldn’t challenge the UK government’s veto over the gender reform bill, so I agree with Yousaf’s assessment on her defection.

She was apparently seen as much closer to Salmond than Sturgeon policy-wise, so it’s not too surprising she’s went over to his side, anyway.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 28, 2023, 12:53:42 pm
Scottish (and SNP) politics is in a bit of a flux right now... but it's (in my view) just jostling around whilst there's nothing actually very much that matters. i.e. it's all short of actually asking the electorate what they think, just going off on a tangent and announcing what they think the electorate wants from them.

It's still a close-run thing whether actual full Independence would be voted for (less close than Brexit[1] turned out to be). That Westminster is firmly saying "Nope! makes me think that they're actually very much more worried that it could happen, the next time the question is asked.


It's really too early to tell what state SNP, Alba and the rest (i.e. the generally Union-facing Scottish arms of the major UK parties) will be in in the next full-on electoral battle. But I don't get the impression that any of the 'defectors' are really going to get much sympathy from those that elected them when next properly asked about it. (SNP->Alba is a tricky one, perhaps depends upon which kettle of self-deterministic fish those on the ground prefer (for those that incline that way).


[1] Albeit now with the threat of Scexit meaning "going out of the EU" being nullified, so I'd have expected the prior not-quite-IndyRef result to have been turned firnly IndyRef by now. That it isn't might mean other things...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on October 28, 2023, 01:13:06 pm
I dunno, a big deal was made about the recent by-election in… whatever Scottish constituency it was. There was a significant swing from the SNP to Labour, but that was an MP that flouted (and I think then lied about flouting) laws around Covid, and the turnout was very low (~40% turnout compared to ~65% in the last GE) so I’m not sure how representative of swings to Labour that is.

Starmer appears to be new New Labour, which did quite well in Scotland if I recall correctly (though Scotland never voted anything but Labour until the late 00s) but I don’t know if that’ll translate to more votes in the next GE, particularly considering the lack of “proper” Labour values.

Edit: forgot to mention the various police investigations the SNP is under also, which might be affecting support.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on October 28, 2023, 01:41:25 pm
My favourite bit is Humza Yousaf’s quote:

“Not a particularly great loss to the party.”


Just makes it seem like sour grapes on all sides to me
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Grim Portent on October 28, 2023, 01:49:24 pm
My favourite bit is Humza Yousaf’s quote:

“Not a particularly great loss to the party.”


Just makes it seem like sour grapes on all sides to me

TBH if it were up to me Regan would have been booted from the party years ago anyway.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on October 28, 2023, 01:54:34 pm
Rutherglen/Hamilton West. Since 2010 (the last time it was solidly Labour) it has bounced between Lab and SNP a few times. Just a fraction of a percent in it, one year! Looking at what it means for future prospects, it was probably a necessary success for Labour, but at the same time a survivable failure for SNP.

People were quite annoyed with Ferrier (sp?) for the COVID stuff, in order to trigger the recall petition. Some of that and the post-Sturgeon legal issues for her (by that time disowned) party might, in the context of classic-ByElection behaviour, have constituted a protest vote. Or not. Depends on who you ask. ;)

If set the same question again today, it could so easily swing on something like whether Kier or Hamza is more in tune with the populace on the issue of Gaza/whatever (though I dislike that votes go for "the party", or even "the leader", without considering the particular candidate posted who might well be better or worse positioned to swing the party). But the question won't be asked for quite a few months, plenty of time for the global and local issues to change... if not the leaders!
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 08, 2023, 04:18:53 pm
"Top official urged Johnson to remove Hancock" was the abbreviated headline used to link to this article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67360460)...

But I initially read it as the (equally entertaining) "Top official urged Hancock to remove (his) Johnson"...
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 09, 2023, 10:26:12 am
"Top official urged Johnson to remove Hancock" was the abbreviated headline used to link to this article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67360460)...

But I initially read it as the (equally entertaining) "Top official urged Hancock to remove (his) Johnson"...
If only Ed Balls had stuck around long enough to help Johnson with his Hancock problem

Then there was that one Tory serial molestor who was Pincher the pincher
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 09, 2023, 11:31:10 am
"Top official urged Johnson to remove Hancock" was the abbreviated headline used to link to this article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67360460)...

But I initially read it as the (equally entertaining) "Top official urged Hancock to remove (his) Johnson"...
If only Ed Balls had stuck around long enough to help Johnson with his Hancock problem

Then there was that one Tory serial molestor who was Pincher the pincher

There was Eric Pickles too for a time.

To be perfectly honest it seems like there are a lot of dicks in the Tory party…
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 09, 2023, 11:45:58 am
There was Eric Pickles too for a time.

To be perfectly honest it seems like there are a lot of dicks in the Tory party…
Jeremy Hunt is a massive... Dick
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 09, 2023, 01:33:36 pm
There was Eric Pickles too for a time.

To be perfectly honest it seems like there are a lot of dicks in the Tory party…
Jeremy Hunt is a massive... Dick
Jeremy Cunt… Hunt *cough* (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EmYwBHooA_M)

Some of those look very deliberate.

Fakeedit: link probably NSFW btw.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on November 09, 2023, 02:08:03 pm
Fakeedit: link probably NSFW btw.
...as with most references to politicians.

(PS.: Peter Bone)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 09, 2023, 02:15:50 pm
Jeremy Cunt… Hunt *cough* (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EmYwBHooA_M)

Some of those look very deliberate.

Fakeedit: link probably NSFW btw.
Bless the one lady who tried to rescue it and just ended up stretching out the cuuuuuuuuuuuuuunt even worse
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on November 13, 2023, 07:13:31 am
So...Cameron's back.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 13, 2023, 07:19:35 am
So...Cameron's back.
HE'S ACTUALLY BACK

WTF
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 13, 2023, 08:04:11 pm
I’m surprised Sunak actually sacked Braverman.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on November 13, 2023, 08:59:56 pm
Given the way the protests went, I'm not. It smelled like he was waiting to see if she'd be right or not, and surprise surprise, Suella De Vil wasn't and it was the right-wing rally that cause memorial day problems.

David Cameron coming back is definitely a surprise. Not an... entirely unwelcome one either. It's a definite step up from the last few years of "talent". He's a slimey git, but he's a competent one.

Cleverly I'll have to keep an eye on. Apparently he's got a good track record on LGBT rights which is, obviously, important to me. It may indicate a pivot away from the "Bigotry is good!" style of governance the government's shown the last few years, possibly because they realised that blaming minorities won't buoy their numbers.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 14, 2023, 03:16:45 am
...competent? The man sleepwalked his country out of the EU 🤣
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 14, 2023, 04:38:30 am
...competent? The man sleepwalked his country out of the EU 🤣
Austerity champion, "I'll definitely stay on if we leave the EU" resigns the day after, almost killed the UK itself... Strong and stable
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 14, 2023, 04:45:29 am
He poisoned that chalice right good he did.

Possibly too bad it wasn’t literal, but hopefully there’s about another year left of these charlatans and we can let the red ones fuck it up for a decade or so until the cycle begins anew.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 14, 2023, 08:16:48 am
He poisoned that chalice right good he did.

Possibly too bad it wasn’t literal, but hopefully there’s about another year left of these charlatans and we can let the red ones fuck it up for a decade or so until the cycle begins anew.
Not to mention he also did his best to make a right muck of the Tory leadership contests by working with Osborne and Gove to make sure there was no clear line of succession, guaranteeing we'd get the strong and stable carousel of clowns
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Frumple on November 14, 2023, 05:50:37 pm
...competent? The man sleepwalked his country out of the EU 🤣
I mean, give the guy some credit, he actually managed to get it inside the pig. I'm not sure relevant entities in the current tory party could do that with any consistency :V
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on November 14, 2023, 05:56:06 pm
He poisoned that chalice right good he did.

Possibly too bad it wasn’t literal, but hopefully there’s about another year left of these charlatans and we can let the red ones fuck it up for a decade or so until the cycle begins anew.
Not to mention he also did his best to make a right muck of the Tory leadership contests by working with Osborne and Gove to make sure there was no clear line of succession, guaranteeing we'd get the strong and stable carousel of clowns

I dunno man, it looked like Boris would’ve won that time anyway, and I’m not sure if him being in power then would have gone better (or even worse) than when he did hold the reins.

Then again I’m possibly just enjoying the Covid enquiry airing out senior people in the government saying he didn’t have a clue what he was doing.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on November 14, 2023, 10:38:05 pm
...competent? The man sleepwalked his country out of the EU 🤣
OK, competent might be a bit much but given the talent I've been witness to since him an RNG would appear competent in my eyes now.

It's like an overton window of shit at this point.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: NJW2000 on November 15, 2023, 09:13:02 am
I’d say Cameron screwed the pooch on a much higher level than his successors. He lost at chess, they lost at Jenga.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on November 17, 2023, 02:53:30 am
I’d say Cameron screwed the pooch on a much higher level than his successors. He lost at chess, they lost at Jenga.

Yeah but he just flipped the table and walked away when he lost, they pooped on the Jenga set and called it victory.

You know, I'm not sure this is a metaphor anymore...

I’m surprised Sunak actually sacked Braverman.

tbh I was expecting him to wait until Wednesday and use her as a scapegoat for when the Rwanda plan inevitably got rejected as illegal, as well as blatantly lacking a shred of morality or basic human decency.

Instead he's stuck trying to kick the can whilst looking like he's doubling down.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 17, 2023, 08:47:55 am
I’d say Cameron screwed the pooch on a much higher level than his successors. He lost at chess, they lost at Jenga.
Screwed the pork*
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: McTraveller on November 17, 2023, 09:26:00 am
Screwed the pork*

Wasn't that a Black Mirror episode?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on November 17, 2023, 10:52:41 am
I’d say Cameron screwed the pooch on a much higher level than his successors. He lost at chess, they lost at Jenga.
Screwed the pork*
Or maybe porked the pooch?
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: scriver on November 17, 2023, 11:52:42 am
Pooched the screw
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Duuvian on January 03, 2024, 05:50:02 am
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-bulking-up-spying-regime-breakneck-speed/
Despite the protestations of industry and campaigners, ministers are whisking a new bill through parliament.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I thought it was bad enough when Microsoft wasn't informed about a security flaw US agencies were exploiting. C'mon now, Microsoft doesn't need any help keeping their OS borked. This is overall a very bad idea, and I can comfortably say that without even having to read the bill this time.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on January 03, 2024, 07:59:34 pm
Oh that's fantastic, wait until an exploit appears, can't get patched, and shitloads lose their personal data. It'll be one of the funny-if-it-wasn't-so-sad situations.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on January 09, 2024, 12:06:59 pm
And this is why (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67921612) I pore scorn on many ideas for changing how the House Of Lords operates. All the "new ideas" are shown to be bunkum in significant ways.

(Yes, hereditary peers may be considered an underserving anachronism but, given how many of their successors are undeserving/problematic (and the elected members of the other House/equivalents in other jurisdictions hardly cover themselves in glory), I don't think there's anything like the impetous to abolish that aspect as many so-called-reformers try to suggest.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 11, 2024, 10:38:30 am
And this is why (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67921612) I pore scorn on many ideas for changing how the House Of Lords operates. All the "new ideas" are shown to be bunkum in significant ways.

(Yes, hereditary peers may be considered an underserving anachronism but, given how many of their successors are undeserving/problematic (and the elected members of the other House/equivalents in other jurisdictions hardly cover themselves in glory), I don't think there's anything like the impetous to abolish that aspect as many so-called-reformers try to suggest.)
Lmao I know of this guy. I remember when the London Evening Standard went from being a cool little newspaper that showed off all these little Londoner perspectives that no one ever acknowledged or even knew existed. Then when he bought it and took it over it would run such relatable concerns as "which chocolate fountain should you buy" two years after everyone had lost their homes and were being priced out of London
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: EuchreJack on January 13, 2024, 02:38:11 am
Hm, but what if all the members of the House of Lords actually showed up and voted? What havoc they could bring.  Or what if only the clearly Russian plants decided to actually show up? Then perhaps pass a proposal to "reform" the House of Lords.  Pure laziness is the only thing saving Britannia.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 13, 2024, 01:39:08 pm
Hm, but what if all the members of the House of Lords actually showed up and voted? What havoc they could bring.  Or what if only the clearly Russian plants decided to actually show up? Then perhaps pass a proposal to "reform" the House of Lords.  Pure laziness is the only thing saving Britannia.
the great art of achieving very little
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on February 21, 2024, 10:08:47 pm
Looks like Speaker Hoyle made a significant boo-boo today in going against convention and allowing a Labour amendment about voting for a ceasefire in Gaza to be discussed on a day designated for the SNP amendment to be discussed instead.

This caused member of the SNP and Tories to walk out in protest.

So far as I can tell the Labour amendment isn’t really any different from the government position in anything but name though? Basically a humanitarian pause for aid and work on a long-term diplomatic solution?

Interesting in that the Speaker is a former Labour MP, and the last time there was an SNP amendment to a vote on Gaza there was a significant rebellion as Labour MPs voted for it, including 10 front benchers (basically opposition “ministers”) who had to thus resign those position.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on February 22, 2024, 12:14:51 am
Government and (Westeminster) Labour Party are close to lockstep. If there's to be cessation of Israel-Gaza conflict (whether pause, cessation or resolving to discuss terms) then it has to be bilateral. Scottish Labour has perhaps forced the idea that A Message Must Be Sent (to one or other such end), despite such messages being probably not worth the vellum they probably won't even be written on. Likud may pay attention to British opinion slightly more than Hamas would, but that's a spectacularly low bar already.

The SNP seems to favour a more unilateral approach (it's hard to know what remains of the pre-October radicalised organisation, anyway... or how much post-October radicalisation may have offset its natural attrition).

As I understand it, it's a break in tradition for Labour's ammendment to be considered, against the SNP original, when there's already such a similar Conservative government pre-emptive (performative) proposal in the loop. But, realistically, the pure SNP version wouldn't satisfy enough people to get legs. Whilst, despite heavy disagreements within both Lab and Con groupings, the Labour proposal could get support enough (and not lose too much for being too cross-chamber in nature, give or take what levels and type of pressure various whips exert), probably moreso than what I understand might be the fate of the Government alternative. But there will be objections on principle for all permutations, even where the sentiments aren't too different from the respective representatives.


...but I haven't been following the details too closely, as I class this as pretty much ineffectual regardless of what mix of 'suggestions' are going to be made. This is for internal consumption only and will mean effectively zero effects 'over there'.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on April 01, 2024, 08:45:10 am
(Was on the verge of submitting this in the "things that made you laugh today" thread, but I'd posted there already on another matter... Still a double-post here, but at least a little over a month between.)

There were always prior claims by government mouthpieces that a prior period when the "small boats" (not the laughing matter) numbers subsided due to the threat of the Rwanda Bill ([url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_Rwanda_(Asylum_and_Immigration)_Bill]ditto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Channel_migrant_crossings_(2018%E2%80%93present))), or had increased thanks to attempts to thwart it.

Today, the exact same sort of spokesbod claimed that the greater numbers over the weekend was due to the imminent success of the policy, actually encouraging attempts.

I tell you, I couldn't help laughing out loud at that. (But then "your cake and eat it" seems to be de rigueur in this sort of political matter, or at least spun to appear that way.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on April 18, 2024, 02:25:53 pm
Former SNP Chief Executive is charged with embezzlement (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68850088) :o

Probably not a great thing to happen in an election year.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on April 18, 2024, 03:58:12 pm
Not exactly out of the blue[1], as it seems to be a holdover from the whole original end-of-Sturgeon-era fuss.

I think the SNP might be more damaged by the reduced environmental targets, or at least the pressure will sit more heavily upon their Green coallition partners.


[1] Talking of blue, another Tory in trouble (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68841840)! (For balance, Rainer is risking an adverse investigation (for Labour), and LibDems are... way too quiet. With the other Celtic sub-nations also having some funny political manouevering going on. Upcoming local elections, for those who are having them, might signal whether Rishi'll want to rush or stall the national ones.)
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on April 18, 2024, 04:58:00 pm
If Tories stopped getting into scandals around the time the other parties are he’d probably have made the announcement already.

Rayner’s thing is nonsense though. The amount of money involved (maybe £2k?) is a pittance compared to even Menzies current thing, and the amount of money wasted by other Tories libeling academics and the like.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on April 25, 2024, 11:35:18 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-68901088

Looks like the Scottish government is about to collapse after the SNP unilaterally decide to leave the Bute House Agreement and blowing their foot off in the process.

That is unless they convince SNP defector and losing leadership candidate Ash Regan to vote with them in the no confidence vote.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on April 25, 2024, 11:40:43 am
Yeah, the SNP have really shot themselves in the leg here. Dunno what Humza's thoughts are, or even if he has any. Guy's got the political guile of a brick.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: MorleyDev on April 25, 2024, 01:00:31 pm
From the sounds of it, the issue they ran into was:
- They passed a law legally binding them to achieve a climate target by 2030.
- They were not on track to meet that target.

So the 'fix' they came up with was to repeal that law, which was something that had to go through Scottish Parliament. Now, the Green party are never going to vote for repealing a climate target, and the agreement the SNP had with the Greens basically was their support in exchange for things like climate targets so...

The other choice (besides doing stuff to meet the targets) was probably to try and delay-delay-delay-lalalalala-we-can't-hear-you until the Election and then hope they either got a solid majority and could just repeal it or be wiped out and hey not their issue anymore. But that's not until 2026 so probably too far away to lalalala.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on April 25, 2024, 01:17:35 pm
I would hope it’s pressure from within the party that basically forced his hand, because otherwise it’s a completely inexplicable move. Quite a few of the old guard have been calling for a withdrawal from the agreement.

Though I’m not sure if that’s better, party members unable to look beyond their own nonsense to alienate another independence supporting party than just the current leader being incredibly short-sighted.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on April 25, 2024, 05:11:46 pm
...I thought it'd take longer than this/be a more convoluted failure, but...
I think the SNP might be more damaged by the reduced environmental targets, or at least the pressure will sit more heavily upon their Green coallition partners.
...not far off, as far as predictions go. (As far as my predictions go, anyway.)


Then there's Wales backing down on the 20MPHs, too.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on April 25, 2024, 05:51:20 pm
...I thought it'd take longer than this/be a more convoluted failure, but...
I think the SNP might be more damaged by the reduced environmental targets, or at least the pressure will sit more heavily upon their Green coallition partners.
...not far off, as far as predictions go. (As far as my predictions go, anyway.)


Then there's Wales backing down on the 20MPHs, too.

I don’t even know why he decided to jump out of this particular window. There was going to be a vote among Green Party members which is at least four weeks away, and Patrick Harvie had said he would resign from the party if they voted to leave the coalition.

There was no reason to jump the gun this soon over that.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on April 28, 2024, 11:05:13 am
Today in "The Conservative Party hates the separation of powers":

Quote
Section 1 subsection 6. "For the purposes of this Act, “international law” includes— (a)the Human Rights Convention, (b)the Refugee Convention, (c)the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights of 1966, (d)the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of 1984, (e)the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings done at Warsaw on 16 May 2005, (f)customary international law, and (g)any other international law, or convention or rule of international law, whatsoever, including any order, judgment, decision or measure of the European Court of Human Rights."

Section 2 subsection 1. "Every decision-maker must conclusively treat the Republic of Rwanda as a safe country."

Section 3 subsection 1. "The provisions of this Act apply notwithstanding the relevant provisions of the Human Rights Act 1998, which are disapplied as follows."

Section 5 subsections 1 and 2. "(1) This section applies where the European Court of Human Rights indicates an interim measure in proceedings relating to the intended removal of a person to the Republic of Rwanda under, or purportedly under, a provision of, or made under, the Immigration Acts. (2)It is for a Minister of the Crown (and only a Minister of the Crown) to decide whether the United Kingdom will comply with the interim measure."

So, we can ignore the ECHR and the government can now decide what is factual and what isn't. As someone pointed out, this theoretically means that should Rwanda have a natural disaster, disease outbreak, or be destabilised in some manner the government cannot put out travel advisories without the consent of parliament. It also means that the courts can't decide the facts of the law, which has previously been the case, because the government's decided that Rwanda is safe so therefore it is, facts and reality be damned.

Granted, ignoring the ECHR isn't exactly unique to us but given the Tories I'm definitely displeased with it.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on April 29, 2024, 07:24:07 am
Well, Yousaf has stepped down. Ambivalent about that, myself, as he was flawed (no more than many politicians/parties!) but still not actually unreasonable in various different ways. But given some of the people he'd have needed to court favour with to continue (that hopefully any successor can dodge, though that depends upon many things), it might even be the best way forward for him.

The tricky question of elections comes up. Internal, local and then maybe even general (UK definitely eventially, Scottish maybe depending upon how the power shuffles might force/allow the opportunity).
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on April 29, 2024, 10:14:18 am
He said he underestimated the hurt he caused the Greens by leaving the power-sharing deal.

Maybe it wasn’t nefarious forces within the party and he really is just an idiot.

Early front-runners for leadership are John Swinney and Kate Forbes. I’d prefer the former, but that’s more because I don’t like the latter.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on April 29, 2024, 01:09:32 pm
Humza's entire time in charge could be described as stumbling from one idiocy to the next. Guy wasn't cut out for politics it seems.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on April 29, 2024, 05:18:15 pm
As far as I'm concerned, a number of his problems resulted from the knock-on effects of having to deal with the messes he was left with dealing with. Silk purses from sows ears, etc. Hard to play a good game when given a bad hand, only so far you can go by trying to bluff.

Oh, and that he didn't really have a name that was fish-related, like I've said before. On that count, I suppose I'm going to have to just support John Swi(m)ey, from the current likely candidates, as the best of a badly-named lot!
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 02, 2024, 04:19:11 pm
Well, he doesn't always know to follow the very rules that he made happen... (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/02/tory-mp-unable-to-vote-photo-id-rules-tom-hunt/)

(https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/facepalm-768x576.jpg)

edit: BBC link/nearly identical version, for those normally allergic to popover/pester/ad-supported sites as me (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68947834), at least for first-clicks. Although at original time of posting, BBC website hadn't "come out of purdah" quite as as quick as the BBC broadcast news or various other online sites...

Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Great Order on May 02, 2024, 06:46:41 pm
Could be like the bus thingymajig? Make something happen so it gets in the news and beats out the even worse thing? In this case, look up bojo voting ID and rather than getting a thing about how he implemented it, you get a thing about how he was turned away. Not a good thing, but it's wiping the idea that it's his fault.

He could also be an idiot, I've maintained he's an idiot thinking he's a smart man pretending to be an idiot. What he's always been good at is PR.
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: Starver on May 03, 2024, 04:09:47 am
At first I thought you meant "throwing a dead cat on the table", not "why do busses always come in threes?", until I remembered the "painting boxes red to make nodel busses" thing. But then there's also the zipline thing and the aggressively tackling the child playing football thing and so many other things, so forgive me for forgetting any given case of Karma Houdini or that turned out to be key distractions to avoid other problems. (The actual circumstances where he probably caught covid would be good material, too, except that it wasn't a personal/limited "whoopsy", and that was not a lesson learnt given the link to later not-supposed-to-revealed slip-ups.)

I think the version of the quote I prefer is something like "Underneath that carefully cultivated thin veneer of being a bumbling fool, there's really a bumbling fool".
Title: Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
Post by: hector13 on May 06, 2024, 03:01:02 am
Looks like John Swinney gets it unopposed. There was an 11th hour nomination - a long time SNP activist - but they decided to back Swinney after chatting with him. I think he gets the SNP leadership at noon on Monday, and there could be a vote to confirm him as the First Minister as early as Wednesday.