I voted Andrew to ensure a lynch. I wasn't sure of the exact votecounts at the time, and the deadline was approaching.
Really? You only voted Andrew to make sure that there was a lynch? Were you even suspicious of him at all, or do you not care who gets lynched, as long as its not you?
Did you miss pretty much all of my posts D1 where I listed Andrew as the scummiest, by far? [
1] I was on Halmie until the end because lurkers will be the death of this game, like so many others.
Nilum, I hope you'll pardon me for saying that I laughed out loud at some of your arguments in that response to me. How experienced with Mafia are you? I'm beginning to grow very curious because you conduct yourself as if you're comfortable with the game, but then your arguments are moronic and naive.
As the title reads, I'm a beginner and this is my first real game of mafia. Apologies if I'm playing poorly by your standards.
Almost everything in here is foolish and incorrect. Bussing is not effective because it's unexpected, and it's not unexpected. Scum are not expected to defend their teammates. The only thing scum loses when they bus is their teammate. This does not prolong the game because bussing usually occurs when the bussed player is going to be lynched anyway. It does not give the town a greater chance of winning. It is not a risky tactic. The only reason town does not immediately expect it is because we don't know who's scum. Once someone flips scum, it's not uncommon for players to analyze the votes and come up with possibilities based on who voted when and why. I strongly suggest you read up on Mafia theory more, because you clearly don't command any grip of tactics other than "fakeclaiming is bad."
Let's check out the mafiascum article on
bussing!
Why It Works
It works because (if done correctly) it distances the players doing it to each other sufficiently that nobody (or at least, nobody but the smartest players) will ever suspect that they are both scum in the same faction. The reasoning applies that if the bussee is actually lynched; the busser is considered to be obviously pro-town. Because, of course, why would a Mafia member try to get his own scum partner lynched? And thus, WIFOM ensues.
It's not uncommon, you're right, but your sentences are contradicting each other.
The only thing scum loses when they bus is their teammate.
...and, by corollary, their teammate's vote. To win, scum have to outnumber or equal town. Bussing can give town more time, and scum more time to screw up. Bussing is obviously done only when beneficial to scum, but there are still risks involved and it still involves some amount of sacrifice. If your scumpartner were most assuredly going to be lynched, you might hesitate to jump on because at that point, it can't even really be considered bussing. If you want an example of bussing, see
Wild West Mafia. Jim was second on his partner, Diakron, and he stayed on him until the end of D1. He took him out because he might have been lynched, not because he was about to be lynched. Diakron wasn't even really a liability, he just had more to gain (i.e., he'd gain more favor in the town's eyes) by lynching him than by not. Someone like Jim is almost always suspected if he lives too long. He's too damn good. His early bus provided him with enough of a cushion to escape the noose later.
This does not prolong the game because bussing usually occurs when the bussed player is going to be lynched anyway.
[citation needed]
I love how you're so confident in yourself that you're willing to tell me that I shouldn't consider what you're doing as being scummy. I'm not saying that you're scum because you voted for Halmie after he voted for you (it was RVS). At this point, I think it's scummy because you're going out of your way to tell me that it's a null tell. Also, your last sentence there is just ridiculous. "Scum want to act like town" is not grounds for something to be a null tell.
There are very few genuine towntells. Do you know why? Because scum are trying to act like town. There are mountains of scumtells, things that hurt town and obviously no sane townie would ever do, and there are mountains of null tells, things that help town and are easy to imitate. The only true town tells are things exceptionally difficult to imitate, or risky. "Scum want to act like town, this tactic is very easily imitable," is complete grounds for something to be a null tell. Obviously voting someone who's voting me isn't pro-town; but the contrary, refusing to put a vote on them simply because they're voting for me, is anti-town. If something is neither a scumtell nor a towntell, then what is it? It's a null tell.
This is the first part where I really started laughing. First of all, you are not in a position to magically know whether somebody understands something or not. Secondly, how was he grasping for straws with a simple "I don't understand" post?
I really don't know how else to say this: Andrew265 was not confused by what Halmie said. It's that simple. Anyone with enough knowledge of English to play Mafia on an English-language forum would be able to figure out what was meant. Let's look at the original sentence again.
ansontan2000, you suspect someone as a cop, but your night action says they are town, how do you proceed?
Let's see how this sentence could be interpreted:
1. "You suspect that someone is a cop, but your night action says that they are town. What do you do?"
This is the 'right' way, technically -- but it ignores context. We're playing Mafia, and a BM at that. No one has a role that returns whether someone is a cop or not, and even if there were such a role, in this setup, all cops are a subset of town... so it contradicts itself.
2. "You, as a cop, suspect someone. Your night action says they are town. What do you do?"
This is obviously the correct way if you understand the first thing about the game we're playing.
Finally, did you seriously just try to dismiss my entire post by claiming that I'm just grasping for straws? Are you an idiot, sir?
Yes, I dismissed your entire post by saying you were grasping for straws. Which is why I then proceeded to answer all of your other points.
Yes, that is exactly what you're doing, which is why I said that it was exactly what you're doing. How is it a scumtell? You are not an IC. It is not your job to teach player how to play the game. By doing so, you're trying to make the other players think that you're worth keeping around. You're also trying to drill your own WIFOM into my head by stating what you would do as scum. But if you were scum, why would you not comment on bad tactics? You said earlier that if you were scum, you'd do whatever you thought town would do... but town doesn't need to comment on bad tactics. That's why it's a scumtell. Furthermore, you're continuing Andrew's habit of misrepping me. I'll say it once more (if it come up again I'm just going to repeatedly quote this); I did not agree with Mormota's saying that it's okay to fakeclaim whenever you're about to get lynched if you're town. I said that I would never agree to fakeclaiming as town outside of LyLO. Finally, if anyone's going to throw town into a pit of WIFOM, it's you. Do I need to start quoting your bullshit about "optimal play"? I thought Jim had already done that.
(Emphasis mine)
Before you criticize me, take a look at your own damn arguments.
Not my job to teach players how to play the game? That's certainly true, my job is to hunt scum and win. To do so, I need townies who don't act like complete retards.
"Town doesn't need to comment on bad tactics."What.
No, seriously: What.
If you are jeopardizing all of us, I am going to say something. Why are you telling me I shouldn't? Why are you saying I should let the shittiest, most anti-town idea I've heard, slip by? This transcends the IC/beginner player border. Your ideas are literally so dangerous that we will lose this game.
You would never agree to fakeclaiming as town outside of LyLO? That implies you would agree to fakeclaiming during LyLO,
WHICH IS EVEN WORSE. LyLO is LYNCH OR LOSE. If you're a vanilla townie claiming cop in an attempt to turn the tide against someone who you
think might be scum, what happens when the real cop counterclaims? There can only be one cop. If there are two people who both claimed cop, one of them
MUST BE SCUM. Under traditional mafia common-sense, at least. You're going against the crowd and making waves. These waves aren't harmless. They're motherfucking tsunamis which will wipe out the entire town. Stop trying to defend your bullshit.
Here's what you said to Andrew:
You really need to stop misrepping people, it's scummy as hell. Fakeclaiming at LyLO if you're about to be lynched and if you know that you're town is what I said I'd be okay with. If you don't claim, town will definitely lose. If you do claim, town might not lose.
No. Nono. Nononononononono oh god please don't subject me to this anymore. Fakeclaiming (as VT) at LyLO,
at best, will cause confusion. At worst, it'll direct the entire town toward two townies: you and the real cop/doctor/whatever. And they will believe that one of you is scum. Even if you're about to be lynched, there is almost always another option. Call for an extension and use your goddamned head to figure out who is scum, and form a coherent argument against them. Without lying.
Okay, wait... WHAT? Let me work backwards here. You do realize that Jim said that "looking at the nightkill" stuff to you, right? Wait, what the fuck? I didn't even mention the nightkill here other than "Oh, look, you killed the IC." Also, good job on making the IC's comments look like they were originally your ideas.
You're not trying to get into the mentality that scum would have. You're trying to look like a townie who is trying to get into the mentality that scum would have while also throwing in WIFOM for good measure.
"I didn't even mention the nightkill except when I mentioned the nightkill."
So, I'm not town trying to think like scum, I'm scum trying to think like town trying to think like scum? First, that's ridiculous. Second: where is your proof? You've given vague feelings. That's all you have.
If you don't expect to be attacked for your own poor play, then why the fuck are you attacking Mormota for his?
Because his poor play, much like yours, is ruinous for everyone but scum.
This is either lazy or bullshit. What's so hard about going to the previous votecount and counting the votes up to the moment in question? Furthermore, if you were so worried about not having a lynch by the deadline, why not request an extend?
The last votecount... hm... 56 or so posts before I made my post? Almost half the entire game? That's a lot to keep track of in my head when (to the best of my knowledge!) the day ends in 6 hours, and I have shit to do in the real world in the meantime. I did skim through the 4 pages or so since the last votecount, and honestly, I thought Andrew had either 2 or 3 votes on him. So I placed a (3rd/4th)... because at the time, I was positive he was scum, and I knew full well that a nolynch would hurt us. You're right -- I could've requested an extend, but I didn't. We wound up getting one anyway, and look what we did with it. Oh, right,
nothing.
To summarize your original arguments:
1. I said that bussing is rarely expected. This is apparently scummy, because it's "misinformation." If anything, I was raising awareness about bussing. Especially in a BM like this, players do not expect someone who leads a lynch against scum as being scum themselves. Hence, bussing is rarely expected.
2. "This comment rubs me the wrong way." -> Vague feelings, gotcha.
3. I said that Andrew almost surely misinterpreted Halmie intentionally. You were absolutely dumbfounded by this. "How could a telepath exist and be playing mafia with us?? SCUM!!!" Because apparently there is no way I could know what Andrew thought, when in reality, it was astoundingly obvious. Just like the meaning of Halmie's sentence, incidentally.
4. This one is funny. I said that falseclaiming as town was bad in general, doubly so at lylo. You're right, this was an act of self-preservation: if I'm stuck with imbeciles like you who actually think that vanilla townies lying to each other is okay or reasonable, we're going to lose this game. Pointing this out was for my own good because it was also for the good of the town. You said I was scum because I was helping town.
5. You said I killed an IC N1, and previously I stated that I'd kill an IC N1. Yeaaaah.
6. I suggested something that was kind of dumb, but not anti-town. It just didn't prove anything. I'll give you this one, because otherwise, your arguments are just too pathetic.
I hope you slept well, because you've got a good bit to answer for.
I'm sure it'll please you to hear that the sleep was simply
decadent.
Author
Topic: Beginner's Mafia XXIX - [3/7, 1/2, 1/1] - Game Over - Scum Win (Read 39494 times)