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[IcyTea31]

There is no real ISO mechanic on Bay12, as the forum software isn't built with Mafia in mind. The closest thing you can get is the "show posts" button on players' profiles, which sadly includes posts in threads unrelated to this game.

You can also trawl the thread page by page with your browser's Find tool (common shortcut: Ctrl+F) for mentions of a particular name, though this is tripped by nicknames, abbreviations and such.

[Naturegirl1999]

What does ISO stand for?

[Persus13]

We used to have a lurkertracker program which helped with ISOs, but the person who ran it isn't active these days and it no longer works. Which is pretty annoying.

ISO basically means looking at one user's post in ISOlation and using that to try and determine their alignment.

I'm in the middle of running a D&D event, so I'll see if I can get my readslist up tomorrow. My main concern with a lynch of Naturegirl or Ion is that its standard lynching the new players, but I don't have a viable alternative.

[Superdorf]

Actual workable material! You have no idea how grateful I am right now.
I'll address Pooka's analysis in a bit. First I should answer this real quick--

What does ISO stand for?

The term was new to me too, so I hopped over to the Mafiascum wiki and looked it up!

Spoiler: This is what it told me. (click to show/hide)

ISO is short for isolation, the set of a single player's posts with all other players' posts ignored. The process of looking at a user's ISO is therefore the process of looking at their posts by themselves out of context. On Mafiascum, it is rather simple to do this as at the bottom of any given page you can choose to look at posts by any one user.

So-o-o it's the act looking at somebody's posts out of context I guess? Strange sort of acronym. It's not really a proper acronym at all.
...What is it with Mafia and weird acronym-thingummies anyway? "LyLo"? "WiFoM"? This is not normal people. 

PPE: Alas! I've been ninja'd! I'll post this anyway, 'cos I still want an excuse to complain about our weird acronym usage.

[Naturegirl1999]

I thought ISO stood for 3 words, yes it is weird that it means only one word. A more accurate term might be “iso.”. Initials, rather than acronyms

[NJW2000]

Don't have much time atm. Think I need to reread.

-snipped-

I take it you don't have a question for me here, just a completely saitisfied conditional belief that if Naturegirl flips scum, I will? Or am I taking "it follows" in too strong a sense. As a mathematician, it implies certainty.

In general, I'm starting to find the lack of questions or scumhunting on me a little irritating and demotivating. I'm putting a lot of effort in to push lots of different people here, noone's pushing at me back really. Makes me a little suspicious of the stronger players, who should be considering everyone.

[Superdorf]

Naturegirl has me confused in all sorts of ways. I'm tempted to vote her and get her flip, but I'm afraid it would be going for a low-hanging fruit in a game where we probably don't have the chance to afford it (which is why you can say I'm reluctant to have her lynched).

You don't want to "go for the low-hanging fruit"... but you're okay with lynching IonMatrix? How is a Naturegirl lynch "low-hanging fruit", but an IonMatrix lynch not?

are you implying that being on a bandwagon twice is unhelpful to town, or that it is most often the action of an unhelpful but legitimate townie? Because the latter is very much debatable.

Both actually. Her jumping on a bandwagon after being told twice it was a bad idea is both unhelpful to town...it's also something I can see an unhelpful but legitimate townie do.

Huh.
Okay but in your experience, is bandwagoning more often a noobtown than a scum move? That's what I was trying to ask there.

Now my assumptions about her being noobtown just stems from the fact that wagon-hopping was something I was guilty of as Town in my first ever game of Mafia. I saw like two people wagon on someone, and me being noob, with the concept that "Day 1 starts with the Random Vote Stage" so alien at the time, I voted as the third on that wagon. Sure, I quickly retracted once people were like "hoo boy this is interesting," but that had me put on the suspicious list for the rest of the game, and the mafia of course capitalized on it. Long story short, I'm giving her a pass because what she's doing reminds me a lot of myself as flailing newbie town.

Sure, and I've totally done the same thing as town meself! Come to that, I was straying dangerously near to that sort of behavior at the start of this game! I don't want to dismiss my concerns out of hand, tho.

Most suspicious aside of Naturegirl is probably IonMatrix.

This is some interesting wording. "Most suspicious aside from Naturegirl"? This implies to me that you consider Naturegirl to be more suspicious than IonMatrix. Is that so? If so, why are you letting her behavior slide and not IonMatrix's?

I suppose Naturegirl has a point about IonMatrix now that I look at the last two pages. He literally did not post after the extension. He was one of the people who thought the Day should be extended in order to find players with scumtells. Where is he now? I mean sure, I'm not all that good with my activity, but at least I tried to participate post-extension...this wholly strikes me as odd. In Page 4 (uhh, posts #150 to #200), he pretty much doesn't do much in the way of scumhunting before the extension thing either. This has me worried.

Ayup, that's why I want him dead. I'd be more willing to give him a chance if he'd at least try to defend himself. Like, at all.

As for the others, let's see... Persus I find him to be giving me a townie vibe. He's generally helpful and of what he said so far, I agree with him. NJW2000 seems to be slightly "buddying up" to me by mentioning my analysis. He's also been pushing Naturegirl to do better. This post may be worth looking at if he or Naturegirl flips, specifically because he didn't give her any room for slack and immediately went on her post saying nothing jumped at her as scum. Other than those two points, I don't really have a solid case against him. Any townie could repeatedly bring up my analysis.

Oh yes, that leaves Superdorf. Again, nothing wrong about him from my eyes.

This is strange to me. I was totally trying to coach Naturegirl into better town-play! IonMatrix too! Is that scummy of me? If so, why didn't you poke me for it? If not, how come it is when NJW does it?

The way I see it, if Naturegirl isn't scum, then the real scumteam is probably an "all-star" team which has managed to stay hidden in the shadows the whole day, and found in Naturegirl a lightning rod that simply cannot be ignored.

If Naturegirl is scum, I'd like to think it follows that NJW is probably scum who saw the opportunity to bus her and earn town points for it, implied in the post I linked, and so he would be a distant third for me.

Bu-u-t... you want to lynch IonMatrix, who doesn't appear in either of those prospective scumteams. Where does he figure into your calculations? If you don't think he's in any scumteams, why lynch him?

[Superdorf]

In general, I'm starting to find the lack of questions or scumhunting on me a little irritating and demotivating. I'm putting a lot of effort in to push lots of different people here, noone's pushing at me back really. Makes me a little suspicious of the stronger players, who should be considering everyone.

Re-read that post of Pooka's!

NJW2000 seems to be slightly "buddying up" to me by mentioning my analysis. He's also been pushing Naturegirl to do better. This post may be worth looking at if he or Naturegirl flips, specifically because he didn't give her any room for slack and immediately went on her post saying nothing jumped at her as scum. Other than those two points, I don't really have a solid case against him. Any townie could repeatedly bring up my analysis.

If Naturegirl is scum, I'd like to think it follows that NJW is probably scum who saw the opportunity to bus her and earn town points for it, implied in the post I linked, and so he would be a distant third for me.

You've been accused of:
- buddying Pooka
- and... coaching Naturegirl?

Weird. Nevertheless those are both things you can (and probably should) respond to!
You're right tho. Now I look at my behavior this game, I've totally been avoiding actually scumhunting you. That is strange and I should not be doing it and I will try and amend the situation with some proper accusations. Just gimme awhile to go through your posts...

...while I'm doing that, though, answer me this: why do you want us to scumhunt you?

[Superdorf]

Oh

I'm in the middle of running a D&D event, so I'll see if I can get my readslist up tomorrow.

I just wanted to say that this sounds absolutely wonderful and I wish you luck in all your goblinslaying endeavors. A blessing upon you and your camels, sirrah!

[Naturegirl1999]

No one really jumped out as suspicious to me

NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.

Mafia generally don't jump out at you, kiss you on the forehead, introduce themselves as Salvini Uspicious and invite you back to their hideout to try mamma's speciality beef rigatoni. Mafia sometimes lurk, they sometimes brazenly strut about like they own the place, but most of the time, they try to act like normal people.

You need to reread the thread, or parts of it, or just the posts of certain people, and look hard and carefully at how they act and find something that doesn't seem right, like someone lying or messing with the truth, going back on what they said, avoiding answering properly, anything like that.

Do they exhibit any of these things the community thinks are signs someone is mafia, scum tells? It would be helpful of you to look through this page, pick out a couple of scumtells, and look through the thread to see if anyone exhibits them. There's more to scumhunting than scumtells, but they're a good place to start.

Or else we'll lynch you for not helping, or build a case against you in which we put forward strong arguments that you're mafia, based on bandwagoning and you not helping. This almost happened to you already. Your reprieve, as far as I can tell, came because I don't like lazy lynches and Superdorf also wanted to extend.

Ah! Thank you! I'd not thought to ask myself... and come to think of it, maybe I should expect her to be more coordinated if she's in a scumchat, not less.

And knowing this, a canny scumbuddy would let her act uncoordinatedly, or even orchestrate flailing to make her seem natural and waste town time.
And knowing I'd say that, a very canny scumbuddy would stop her acting in such a flaily manner, and...

In other worlds, welcome to the wonderful world of WIFOM. I suspect that thinking about whether someone's recieving guidance won't get one very far.

Oh wait, now we're thinking Naturegirl really is just confused-town. In which case my crazy bussing theories are pointless. So... disregard previous post?

I really wouldn't assume Naturegirl is just confused-town. Right now, my read is fairly neutral between town and scum, and she's definitely someone I'd want to get rid of if we don't end up with a real case for a lynch today. But yes, there are 21 different possible 2-person scumteam combinations, and that's not even counting the real possibility of an SK, so I think considering people's behaviour as pairs rather than singletons is a rabbit hole it would be better not to go down.

I’m curious why you are encouraging Superdorf against searching for 2 scum teams

Naturegirl1999
On the one hand, I do indeed consider IonMatrix to be woefully scummy at the moment... On the other hand... I can't really support it, but I have this uneasy feeling that you're voting him to protect yourself.
You were looking to lynch Persus for inactivity. Now you're looking to lynch IonMatrix for inactivity. You're backing all our policy-lynch suggestions... why?

Because I don’t think I’ve found the scum, and if a stronger player thinks policy lynches are a good idea, then I’m willing to agree with them, as I don’t think I found scum

[4maskwolf]

Three people had voted for an extension at this point. You're right that activity had picked up here, but how does Naturegirl "catching your attention" make you want to extend the day, given you were happy to simply lynch her in the last twelve hours of d1? It's just confusing: you're dubious of extensions, apparently, and are perfectly happy to lynch naturegirl on the basis of her bandwagon without an extension, but then want an extension because of... naturegirl's bandwagon? That can't be right. Or is activity picking up enough for an extension, even though you think extensions often kill activity? I don't get it.

So now I am expecting something more, 4mask. An explanation. Why did you change your mind about the extension?

I was hoping that I could spark a conversation with my accusation on Nature and, with the general increase in activity towards day end, that it would be one of those rare good extensions where a change at the end of the day kept activity going for the duration of the extension.

Or that's the answer I would give, but the real answer is a lot more out-of-game and I was trying to avoid providing it.

Ultimately, this is a very newbie-heavy game, so letting them experience more mafia is a good thing so they can learn the ropes.  I have a longstanding policy of softballing new players on D1 so they don't get overwhelmed or feel personally attacked (after all, mafia can get rather heated), so even if I thought nature's lynch was a surefire thing (which I don't, it's just my best lead), I'd still want them to have more time to respond to accusations and learn how the game works.

[NJW2000]

-

-

You've been accused of:
- buddying Pooka
- and... coaching Naturegirl?

Weird. Nevertheless those are both things you can (and probably should) respond to!
You're right tho. Now I look at my behavior this game, I've totally been avoiding actually scumhunting you. That is strange and I should not be doing it and I will try and amend the situation with some proper accusations. Just gimme awhile to go through your posts...

...while I'm doing that, though, answer me this: why do you want us to scumhunt you?

Pooka didn't phrase questions. I still don't see any suggestion that I should explain my behaviour. Their post wasn't even addressed to me.
That said, if you think I should respond:

I have been referring to Pooka's analysis because he is the one who posted the most in-depth mechanical analysis at the start.
I didn't give naturegirl any slack (Pooka didn't just say I was coaching, everyone should be coaching newer players a bit) because I've seen a pattern in her behaviour this game (a pattern shared by IonMatrix) of giving a desultory response to encouragement to actually scumhunt, and then just switch back to passively answering questions. This time, I decided to try and nip this in the bud with a rant about scumhunting.

Why do I want you to scumhunt me? Well, it's more that it's something you should be doing. I don't need more information about my own alignment, I know that I'm town. But everyone else in the town needs information about my alignment, and should be considering the possibility that I'm scum, and investigating me accordingly. D1 is your first chance to get info about people, and you can only do that D1 by pressuring them if you don't engage in role-reveal hijinks. So that we get info on every player, we ought to be pressuring every player.

I’m curious why you are encouraging Superdorf against searching for 2 scum teams

I have been encouraging Superdorf against searching for teams of two scum rather than single scum (I think this is what you meant? I'm going mostly by context, and what I see could be dubious in the posts you quoted) not just because there are a lot of 2-person combinations.
Having read 4mask's post above, I suspect I had an inchoate meta motive for it too, which is that with newer players, some people will be a bit more lenient to ease them into a very hard game, which might come across as scumbuddying. Case in point:

  I have a longstanding policy of softballing new players on D1

Also I might do it a bit, and obviously have an instinctive aversion to the idea of appearing scummy, even though rationally this isn't wholly the way I should think as town. This is an element of my game I struggle with and try to control. I've responded badly to people asking fair questions in my previous games, and nearly been lynched as town because of it.

And thank you for pressuring me on something when I mention that people should be doing it.   
You do need to start questioning people's behaviour on your own initiative though. That's what most of the mafia daygame is, really, so you can never really be done with it until the game is over.

Right above

Yeah, this is fair. And thanks for making the thing about out-of-game logic explicit, it was helpful.


Hm. I think it's about time for me to start consolidating reads/cases. Should have had some questions for people today, but other stuff happens on weekends.

[IcyTea31]

24 hours (of which 9 are freeze-time) remain in the Day.

Naturegirl1999: 4maskwolf (1)
IonMatrix: Superdorf, Naturegirl1999 (2)
Superdorf: NJW2000 (1)

Not voting: Pooka, IonMatrix, Persus13

Day One ends on 2019-08-26 15:00 UTC.
Extension has been used.
Hammering is available, requiring 5 votes.

[Persus13]

IcyTea: Has IonMatrix been prodded at all?

Readslist. I remembered my problems with these things halfway through, since most people are still null. I'll settle for my general impressions of them currently. As said in my last post, I don't think Ion or Nature are scum, and I'm still trying to decide who I'd rather vote for.

Naturegirl is an erratic poster who despite not posting very much in content, is responsible for most of the content that has been generated today. That's good because its generated activity, although scum may be using that to their advantage as well.

Superdorf seems to be a nice person, which is making it harder for me to read if he's scum or not. He doesn't seem to have ulterior motives, so I'm reading him as slightly town for now.

NJW seems to indecisive about who he wants to scumhunt and has gone primarily for the new players without being super honest about both those facts. Both of those things I find slightly scummy, although its mitigated slightly by his mathematician mindset and his concern that folks haven't been poking at him more.

Pooka's been playing well, he's clearly experienced, and has had some thoughtful analysis to read. However analysis is not alignment indicative and I'm slightly curious since he's stated suspicions of NJW without following up on it. I'd like to hear more specifically about his buddying accusation.

A lot of folks have brought up the fact that IonMatrix hasn't posted since the extension. Considering his last few posts were stating that he was not finding the game exciting as he had hoped, its possible he may have decided to stop playing. If so, the mod should probably check in on him.

4maskwolf is strange and hard to read. I need more time for him.

[Superdorf]

Ah, wonderful! Lemme just chop that list up so's I can put some replies out...

Naturegirl is an erratic poster who despite not posting very much in content, is responsible for most of the content that has been generated today. That's good because its generated activity, although scum may be using that to their advantage as well.

Hm, you make a good point... for all her hesitation to throw about accusations and whatnot, Naturegirl has been fairly active, in a laconic sort of way. For that matter, she's asking questions about the game-- acronyms and whatnot-- here, rather than in the scumchat.

Superdorf seems to be a nice person, which is making it harder for me to read if he's scum or not. He doesn't seem to have ulterior motives, so I'm reading him as slightly town for now.

Eh, fair enough. I haven't really been crazy-active enough to merit a stronger read than that.
I am curious tho... if you still think IonMatrix is town, then what do you think of my voting him?

NJW seems to indecisive about who he wants to scumhunt and has gone primarily for the new players without being super honest about both those facts. Both of those things I find slightly scummy, although its mitigated slightly by his mathematician mindset and his concern that folks haven't been poking at him more.

Now this is interesting! I had a townread on NJW meself, just 'cause he was asking nice strong questions early in the Day... but then, I believed the same thing of Nirur Torir in my first game, and hoo boy was I ever wrong there.

Why is mathematical thinking a towntell?

Pooka's been playing well, he's clearly experienced, and has had some thoughtful analysis to read. However analysis is not alignment indicative and I'm slightly curious since he's stated suspicions of NJW without following up on it. I'd like to hear more specifically about his buddying accusation.

You don't actually give us a read here. Is your vote on Pooka a vote of condemnation or of curiosity?
If the former, how come you consider both Pooka and NJW scummy, when Pooka's throwing accusations at NJW?

A lot of folks have brought up the fact that IonMatrix hasn't posted since the extension. Considering his last few posts were stating that he was not finding the game exciting as he had hoped, its possible he may have decided to stop playing. If so, the mod should probably check in on him.

Oh! Oh yes! I... I forgot proddings were a thing too! 
Yes yes, I as well would like to know what the prod-status of IonMatrix is.