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[4maskwolf]

You don't have to lynchvote extensions, y'know.  Just put them in bold is generally how its done.  Then you place your lynch vote separately.

And the answer to that question, NJW, is two-fold.  One: extensions without actual thread activity, in almost all circumstances, are harmful to game health and do not provide a meaningful advantage to the town.  One or two extra days of no activity give you basically nothing but drag out the game longer and can have a negative impact on player morale in general.  Two: with this in mind, extension or not I see no sign of Persus participating and yes, lacking anything else I would have preferred no extension and a lurker lynch.  However, with activity having picked up a bit this evening and someone catching my attention, extend.

[Naturegirl1999]

You don't have to lynchvote extensions, y'know.  Just put them in bold is generally how its done.  Then you place your lynch vote separately.

And the answer to that question, NJW, is two-fold.  One: extensions without actual thread activity, in almost all circumstances, are harmful to game health and do not provide a meaningful advantage to the town.  One or two extra days of no activity give you basically nothing but drag out the game longer and can have a negative impact on player morale in general.  Two: with this in mind, extension or not I see no sign of Persus participating and yes, lacking anything else I would have preferred no extension and a lurker lynch.  However, with activity having picked up a bit this evening and someone catching my attention, extend.

Yes, Persus13 hasn’t posted in a while

Persus13

There hasn't been enough interaction to find anything super scummy and the town can't afford an afk player.

I am saying I agree with 4mask, Persus13 hasn’t been active in a while

[IcyTea31]

The Day has been extended. It will now end on 2019-08-24 15:00 UTC.

Naturegirl1999: 4maskwolf (1)
IonMatrix: Superdorf (1)
Persus13: Naturegirl1999 (1)

Not voting: NJW2000, Pooka, IonMatrix, Persus13

Extend: NJW2000, Superdorf, Naturegirl1999, IonMatrix

Day One ends on 2019-08-24 15:00 UTC.
Extension has been used.
Hammering is available, requiring 5 votes.

[Superdorf]

Superdorf, I am still excited for this game, but nothing really happened in this game

...Okay I am sick of this "nothing has happened" excuse.

First off: things have happened. You've got like 90 posts of things happening to look through-- just because the stuff that's happened so far is social rather than mechanical, doesn't mean it hasn't happened! You'll just have to read between the lines a little bit, is all. As I told Naturegirl: ask yourself of each post, "Why did this person say this thing?", repeat ad nauseam, and build questions and accusations off your results. We're all doing it, you can too. Really. I believe in you.

Second: Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that what you're saying is true: nothing of note has happened in the game so far, and you don't have enough material to build a case on. Guess what?

It is your responsibility to fix that.

It falls to you to talk to people-- and I don't care what you talk to them about, so long as it's at least somewhat game-related-- so that you get that critical material! And you're... not... trying. Until I started badgering you about the matter, the only question you asked of us-- the only one-- was that little rolefish of yours, which we then flipped out over, which made you go into that little shell of yours... and you haven't come out since. You're responding only when something is demanded of you, and then you're only putting in ju-u-ust enough effort to try and keep your nose clean!

So. If you want this lynchvote off you... start asking people stuff. Any stuff. Just so long as it's tangentially game-related. Ask for clarification on points you don't understand. Ask for explanations of behavior you find unusual. Ask a few RVS questions if you have to. All I want is for you to show me that you're at least trying to obtain the material you need.

Show me you care whether town lives or dies.

Alright, rant over! Sorry 'bout that. I do actually have one more question for you:
If you had to lynchvote somebody right now, who would you choose? Why?

[NJW2000]

Oh wait, now we're thinking Naturegirl really is just confused-town. In which case my crazy bussing theories are pointless. So... disregard previous post?

I really wouldn't assume Naturegirl is just confused-town. Right now, my read is fairly neutral between town and scum, and she's definitely someone I'd want to get rid of if we don't end up with a real case for a lynch today. But yes, there are 21 different possible 2-person scumteam combinations, and that's not even counting the real possibility of an SK, so I think considering people's behaviour as pairs rather than singletons is a rabbit hole it would be better not to go down.

I do agree that we should probably lynch someone by the end on this day now. But, I didn't see anything that would really classify as "scumtell", so I think we should extend the day, to both find more evidence and have more time analyzing.
Extension, please.

What changed your mind?

You don't have to lynchvote extensions, y'know.  Just put them in bold is generally how its done.  Then you place your lynch vote separately.

And the answer to that question, NJW, is two-fold.  One: extensions without actual thread activity, in almost all circumstances, are harmful to game health and do not provide a meaningful advantage to the town.  One or two extra days of no activity give you basically nothing but drag out the game longer and can have a negative impact on player morale in general.  Two: with this in mind, extension or not I see no sign of Persus participating and yes, lacking anything else I would have preferred no extension and a lurker lynch.  However, with activity having picked up a bit this evening and someone catching my attention, extend.

Interesting. So you don't think there's been actual thread activity each day? I believe the game's been a bit sparse, but I wouldn't really agree with you there, I think we've made progress each day. I can't actually argue with your meta-game experience regarding extensions, but I still find the rather rushed vote on persus a bit dubious.

So do we get to know who caught your attention, or is this like your strong inclination to believe that there's a cop?
(I'm assuming it's not Naturegirl, as you were perfectly happy to let the clock run out with the deciding vote on her, justified by a one-line analysis)

[IcyTea31]

Moderator error: time doesn't pass on weekends, so the extended day will actually end on 2019-08-26 15:00 UTC. I should probably go to sleep.

Naturegirl1999: 4maskwolf (1)
IonMatrix: Superdorf (1)
Persus13: Naturegirl1999 (1)

Not voting: NJW2000, Pooka, IonMatrix, Persus13

Extend: NJW2000, Superdorf, Naturegirl1999, IonMatrix

Day One ends on 2019-08-26 15:00 UTC.
Extension has been used.
Hammering is available, requiring 5 votes.

[Persus13]

Could have sworn I had posted today, but apparently not. This post was going to have a readslist, but we got an extension and I'm tired, so I'm going to push that back to tomorrow.

Moderator error: time doesn't pass on weekends, so the extended day will actually end on 2019-08-26 15:00 UTC. I should probably go to sleep.

Ugh. Hopefully this extension will buck the trend and we'll actually get activity from it.

Naturegirl:

I'm referring to the post you were responding to.

The post said this was random voting, so I voted majority, I unvoted when I realized bandwagoning isn’t a good idea

What did you think of the rest of his post, besides his random vote comment? What was your goal there in doing that vote? Were you doing it to find scum, or doing it to please Superdorf? What's your goal in this game right now?


4maskwolf:

Persus13: Since you didn't answer my first question, here's another RVS question: what's the difference, in your experience, between me as town and me as scum.

Did I miss your first RVS question? I thought I had answered it. Honestly, its been too long since I played with you to have an opinion, and meta reads aren't really my favorite.

Alright now it's time for my typical bullshit.

I'm very confident that we have a cop this game.

Okay. If we're still around, I'll be questioning you on this later.

Persus13

There hasn't been enough interaction to find anything super scummy and the town can't afford an afk player.

That's fair, I hadn't posted in 24 hours when this vote was made. Did you choose between me and Pooka?

Two: with this in mind, extension or not I see no sign of Persus participating and yes, lacking anything else I would have preferred no extension and a lurker lynch.  However, with activity having picked up a bit this evening and someone catching my attention, extend.

This on the other hand is BS.

IonMatrix:

Anyway. Your recent words make me curious: have you played Mafia before? If so, how many games (if any) have you played as mafia, or as a hostile third-party?

As I said before, no.

Also, poke more people please. You're really not making yourself look good right now.

I think I said before that the reason I'm not voting anyone because I don't find anyone suspicous. But sure, I'll use a random number generater.

Fake Edit:
I used a RNG and ended up with myself . So:
Myself, why are you not poking anyone?

There, I hope that satisfies you  .

If you don't find someone suspicious, how are you going to fix that? If nothing has stood out to you as suspicious, has there been anything you've seen as odd or that you wanted to know more about?

*yawns* ok I'm awake now!

Did the voting people forget to take of their pressure vote or something? Personally, I think we should refrain from lynching on day one unless someone os so scummy he/she just HAS to be scum. But again, I'm the least experienced player here, so I want to hear what everybody's opinion before voting for no lynch.

The main problem with No Lynching is that it generally gives Mafia a free night. Lynching is the town's weapon, and while it can be used to hurt town, getting information from the Mafia kill gives the Mafia team control over information.

Oh wait, superdorf posted again while I was typing out the fake edit.

Superdorf, I am still excited for this game, but nothing really happened in this game

Yeah its Day 1. Its usually the least exciting part of the game, unless someone has a daykill. However, while mechanically, not a lot is happening right now, we're currently setting up information to draw on for later use. Geto ut there and talk to people. Question things, and you might find that you are having more fun than you are now.

Pooka:

Pooka: What are your thoughts on the game so far?

Compared to the games I was having over at GOG, this game looks a lot more complex. I'm not sure why it appears so, perhaps it's because there's a lot more quantity to read over (it's like two or three days now and there's like about 80 game relevant posts outside of the sign up posts) and each post is densely packed, but, anywho, the game itself.

There's so far still nobody I'm getting scum feelings about. Yes, there's IonMatrix asking about "over-powered" roles which can be taken as rolefishing, but in my opinion, it's not a decent scumtell; many townies did it. Yes, scum may ask questions considered "rolefishing" but finding scumtells is a much harder, subtle art.

Also, I find 4maskwolf's "very confident' declaration of there being a cop in the game interesting. I'd like to take it as a sort of implication that he is "very confident" in what he said because he is the cop? But that doesn't strike me well, because if he is not scum, he pretty much got himself offed during Night 1, essentially wasting his role. It could be because of the "all players have a special role of some kind" thing and he's deducing it off that, but that isn't a guarantee that there would be a cop...

If you think he's the cop, why would you say that.
I'm having a harder time than usual finding scummy people too. I blame the smaller game plus newer players though.

Superdorf:

I mean. Seeing as we're playing a vanilla game... I suppose a cop-role is likely enough? Why do you believe this declaration of yours to be so, and what is your motivation in saying it?

No comment.

This disturbs me. Without further information, I'm inclined to believe one of the following:

- You have some kind of strange town-gambit in mind
- or you're trying to ferret out a cop.

Strange gambit is an apt description for 4mask's play.

It's possible we're just looking at new-player flailing, but I'm increasingly inclined to believe she's mafia, and doesn't know what to do or who to accuse because she already knows who's who. She said it herself at the start of the Day: all she wants is her own survival.

Do you think she's getting advice form a teammate in a private chat?

NJW:

Unvote, extend.

I need to read the thread properly, lynching a lurker or a newb isn't a good response to having no time. You read Pooka's analysis, this is a small game, unlikely to last more than a couple of nights, where two mistakes will kill us. We need more time.

Do you think more time will actually generate discussion in the absence of information a lynch might give us?

Interestingly enough, this is also very bad. 4maskwolf, are extensions not a thing? Are they are bad idea in a game where town is quite possibly (see Pooka's analysis) two mistakes away from victory and we get one every goddamn day?

Considering I have seen plenty of extensions kill game activity instead of improving it, I don't have a very high opinion of them.

I myself thought there was an SK because no strong lynch cases had emerged when I said this, which suggests the mafia weren't focusing on obtaining a lynch to benefit scum, and that quite a few players were more interested in figuring out who was who than killing efficiently.
All that's out the window what with the new developments.

In my experience, Mafia players don't often coordinate their votes, especially D1, because it puts them at risk of being exposed.

[Superdorf]

Superdorf:

It's possible we're just looking at new-player flailing, but I'm increasingly inclined to believe she's mafia, and doesn't know what to do or who to accuse because she already knows who's who. She said it herself at the start of the Day: all she wants is her own survival.

Do you think she's getting advice form a teammate in a private chat?

Ah! Thank you! I'd not thought to ask myself... and come to think of it, maybe I should expect her to be more coordinated if she's in a scumchat, not less.
On the other hand, that kinda should hold true for IonMatrix too... gahh, this complicates things.

Ah well. I'll have to consider the matter tomorrow. I look forward to that readlist of yours!

[4maskwolf]

Answer is in response to Naturegirl, but any new players may find it useful.

Yes, Persus13 hasn’t posted in a while

Persus13

There hasn't been enough interaction to find anything super scummy and the town can't afford an afk player.

I am saying I agree with 4mask, Persus13 hasn’t been active in a while

That... isn't really an excuse.

Bandwagoning (jumping onto a lynch vote with flimsy or nonexistent justification, especially one with an already incredibly weak justification like my vote on Persus) looks super bad.  Like, voting the same person as someone else isn't bad, but when it looks like you're just opportunistically hopping onboard and not that you actually think they're scum... it makes you look like you're the scum player.  The fundamental difference between town and scum is one of information: the scum knows who they are and thus who all their enemies are, while each town player only knows that they, personally, are innocent.  One of the ways this difference of information can manifest, and thus one thing people can look for, is that the scum will be comfortable with most any lynch, as long as it's not them, while the town want to be more discerning about who they lynch since, while anyone could be their enemy, not everyone is.  This is why your actions look suspicious: you have added your vote to not one but two different lynch candidates with minimal-to-nonexistent justification.

Spoiler: Other stuff for new players if they wanna read it (click to show/hide)

So, I'm not really sure how useful this is, as new players always have differing levels of knowledge and grasp on the game, but I wanted to highlight an ongoing interaction in as unbiased a light as possible, as it represents the core of mafia gameplay.

A page or so back, I placed a vote on Persus, and justified it by saying that I had no scumreads and so believed lynching the inactive player was the best choice.  While the justification may vary, this is at the heart of mafia once the RVS stage ends: placing votes based on interpretation of the evidence rather than simply throwing them around to get answers or randomly apply pressure.  In fact, a serious vote usually signals the informal end of RVS.

On to the next step, then: NJW looked at my vote and justification and decided that something felt off.  In their next post, they challenged me on it, asking questions that got to the heart of what they felt was wrong (and, possibly, scummy) about my vote.  In my next post, then, I provided my response, answering the questions I received and providing explanations and justifications.  Their next post they kept pressing, asking further questions based on the answers I provided, and in my next post I will once again respond to those.  Regardless of the allegiances of the the two parties, most mafia games will have a lot of this back-and-forth, only ending when the questioner decides that either their concerns have been addressed, that the other party is scum (or that they have a strong enough case to accuse them of such, if the inquisitorial party is themselves scum), or, occasionally, something happens that distracts from or eclipses the ongoing debate and the parties involved switch their attention to the different subject.

Now, Naturegirl1999.  Why did you feel Persus' lynch was the best possible option?  Is there really nobody you find to be suspicious or acting in a manner unfitting with being town?  Why were you so quick to jump on the "lynch inactive" train rather than spending some of the remaining hours finding scum?

NJW: I'll get to your post tomorrow, I spent an hour and a half writing this post (I revised the teaching sections a few times to try and get my point across better and my computer is a bitch about typing things, no matter how hard I try I always bump the trackpad and, worst case scenario, it decides to highlight an entire paragraph while I'm typing and delete it with my next keystroke), and I have to be awake for work in five hours.  I promise to respond within the next 24, and hopefully within the next 16.

[NJW2000]

Could have sworn I had posted today, but apparently not. This post was going to have a readslist, but we got an extension and I'm tired, so I'm going to push that back to tomorrow.

Moderator error: time doesn't pass on weekends, so the extended day will actually end on 2019-08-26 15:00 UTC. I should probably go to sleep.

Ugh. Hopefully this extension will buck the trend and we'll actually get activity from it.

Huh. Well, I plan to be posting fairly consistently. I hope this extension doesn't inconvenience anyone too much, I didn't know people had such a low opinion of them.

NJW:

Unvote, extend.

I need to read the thread properly, lynching a lurker or a newb isn't a good response to having no time. You read Pooka's analysis, this is a small game, unlikely to last more than a couple of nights, where two mistakes will kill us. We need more time.

Do you think more time will actually generate discussion in the absence of information a lynch might give us?

Well, yes, I think it will. I think some interesting things happened in what would have been the last few hours of the day, and that discussing these would worthwhile. Furthermore, it's not like we won't get information from the lynch when the day ends, unless we nolynch, which I don't think is likely or advisable.

I also think more time will actually generate cases, and lynching on a case is better than lynching entirely pragmatically (Persus not posting) or on a single-line accusation. This is because lynching on a case gives more info as it forces players to commit strongly to their cases, and because cases are generally easier for town to build against scum, meaning we're more likely to lynch scum, which is key in a game this small.

I myself thought there was an SK because no strong lynch cases had emerged when I said this, which suggests the mafia weren't focusing on obtaining a lynch to benefit scum, and that quite a few players were more interested in figuring out who was who than killing efficiently.
All that's out the window what with the new developments.

In my experience, Mafia players don't often coordinate their votes, especially D1, because it puts them at risk of being exposed.

This may be true, but I still thought that if there were two strong mafia and five town rather than sk, 2 weak mafia, 4 town, we would have seen more cases being built. The recent flurry of votes and accusations has changed my mind about that somewhat. I was just speculating here, in an attempt to make some content happen, really.

NJW: I'll get to your post tomorrow, I spent an hour and a half writing this post (I revised the teaching sections a few times to try and get my point across better and my computer is a bitch about typing things, no matter how hard I try I always bump the trackpad and, worst case scenario, it decides to highlight an entire paragraph while I'm typing and delete it with my next keystroke), and I have to be awake for work in five hours.  I promise to respond within the next 24, and hopefully within the next 16.

Cool! Don't feel too stressed about timings, the extend did give us an extra hundred hours... which I understand may have been a bit too long for some people. I apologise if I've just encouraged everyone to slow down a day that will be low-content and end with a pragmatic or low-effort lynch regardless, but I think something might come of this.
And please, don't sacrifice sleep for mafia! Not worth. Even for the excellent content for newer players you just made.


Need to go now, but I'll definitely have more of a think and a post on what happened recently later on.

[IcyTea31]

Ugh. Hopefully this extension will buck the trend and we'll actually get activity from it.

Huh. Well, I plan to be posting fairly consistently. I hope this extension doesn't inconvenience anyone too much, I didn't know people had such a low opinion of them.

I'm sorry. I thought I was clever about setting up a 72+48+48 hour week, but I miscalculated by not taking into account that the game started 15 hours into the week.

Also, remember not to quote me directly.

[Naturegirl1999]

Answer is in response to Naturegirl, but any new players may find it useful.

Yes, Persus13 hasn’t posted in a while

Persus13

There hasn't been enough interaction to find anything super scummy and the town can't afford an afk player.

I am saying I agree with 4mask, Persus13 hasn’t been active in a while

That... isn't really an excuse.

Bandwagoning (jumping onto a lynch vote with flimsy or nonexistent justification, especially one with an already incredibly weak justification like my vote on Persus) looks super bad.  Like, voting the same person as someone else isn't bad, but when it looks like you're just opportunistically hopping onboard and not that you actually think they're scum... it makes you look like you're the scum player.  The fundamental difference between town and scum is one of information: the scum knows who they are and thus who all their enemies are, while each town player only knows that they, personally, are innocent.  One of the ways this difference of information can manifest, and thus one thing people can look for, is that the scum will be comfortable with most any lynch, as long as it's not them, while the town want to be more discerning about who they lynch since, while anyone could be their enemy, not everyone is.  This is why your actions look suspicious: you have added your vote to not one but two different lynch candidates with minimal-to-nonexistent justification.

Spoiler: Other stuff for new players if they wanna read it (click to show/hide)

So, I'm not really sure how useful this is, as new players always have differing levels of knowledge and grasp on the game, but I wanted to highlight an ongoing interaction in as unbiased a light as possible, as it represents the core of mafia gameplay.

A page or so back, I placed a vote on Persus, and justified it by saying that I had no scumreads and so believed lynching the inactive player was the best choice.  While the justification may vary, this is at the heart of mafia once the RVS stage ends: placing votes based on interpretation of the evidence rather than simply throwing them around to get answers or randomly apply pressure.  In fact, a serious vote usually signals the informal end of RVS.

On to the next step, then: NJW looked at my vote and justification and decided that something felt off.  In their next post, they challenged me on it, asking questions that got to the heart of what they felt was wrong (and, possibly, scummy) about my vote.  In my next post, then, I provided my response, answering the questions I received and providing explanations and justifications.  Their next post they kept pressing, asking further questions based on the answers I provided, and in my next post I will once again respond to those.  Regardless of the allegiances of the the two parties, most mafia games will have a lot of this back-and-forth, only ending when the questioner decides that either their concerns have been addressed, that the other party is scum (or that they have a strong enough case to accuse them of such, if the inquisitorial party is themselves scum), or, occasionally, something happens that distracts from or eclipses the ongoing debate and the parties involved switch their attention to the different subject.

Now, Naturegirl1999.  Why did you feel Persus' lynch was the best possible option?  Is there really nobody you find to be suspicious or acting in a manner unfitting with being town?  Why were you so quick to jump on the "lynch inactive" train rather than spending some of the remaining hours finding scum?

NJW: I'll get to your post tomorrow, I spent an hour and a half writing this post (I revised the teaching sections a few times to try and get my point across better and my computer is a bitch about typing things, no matter how hard I try I always bump the trackpad and, worst case scenario, it decides to highlight an entire paragraph while I'm typing and delete it with my next keystroke), and I have to be awake for work in five hours.  I promise to respond within the next 24, and hopefully within the next 16.

No one really jumped out as suspicious to me

[NJW2000]

No one really jumped out as suspicious to me

NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.

Mafia generally don't jump out at you, kiss you on the forehead, introduce themselves as Salvini Uspicious and invite you back to their hideout to try mamma's speciality beef rigatoni. Mafia sometimes lurk, they sometimes brazenly strut about like they own the place, but most of the time, they try to act like normal people.

You need to reread the thread, or parts of it, or just the posts of certain people, and look hard and carefully at how they act and find something that doesn't seem right, like someone lying or messing with the truth, going back on what they said, avoiding answering properly, anything like that.

Do they exhibit any of these things the community thinks are signs someone is mafia, scum tells? It would be helpful of you to look through this page, pick out a couple of scumtells, and look through the thread to see if anyone exhibits them. There's more to scumhunting than scumtells, but they're a good place to start.

Or else we'll lynch you for not helping, or build a case against you in which we put forward strong arguments that you're mafia, based on bandwagoning and you not helping. This almost happened to you already. Your reprieve, as far as I can tell, came because I don't like lazy lynches and Superdorf also wanted to extend.

Ah! Thank you! I'd not thought to ask myself... and come to think of it, maybe I should expect her to be more coordinated if she's in a scumchat, not less.

And knowing this, a canny scumbuddy would let her act uncoordinatedly, or even orchestrate flailing to make her seem natural and waste town time.
And knowing I'd say that, a very canny scumbuddy would stop her acting in such a flaily manner, and...

In other worlds, welcome to the wonderful world of WIFOM. I suspect that thinking about whether someone's recieving guidance won't get one very far.

I guess playing too much mafia erases any senses of humor, at least when playing mafia.

I don't think so. I find my own little witticisms very funny indeed.

    Two: with this in mind, extension or not I see no sign of Persus participating and yes, lacking anything else I would have preferred no extension and a lurker lynch.  However, with activity having picked up a bit this evening and someone catching my attention, extend.

This on the other hand is BS.

I didn't understand which bit is "BS". The extension? The preference for a lurker lynch? The assessment of your activity?
Not a scumhunting point, but I'd like to know for mafia understanding generally.

Spoiler: spoilered for size (click to show/hide)

Nope.  I won't, in fact.

...Tomorrow. Tomorrow I will want answers.

But yeah I suppose Naturegirl1999's vote shenanigans have been pretty bizarre. Votes Persus because bandwagon, backs off when she gets pressured on it, votes you over quote confusion, backs off when she gets pressured on it, bounces that vote to me, backs off when she gets pressured on it...

It's possible we're just looking at new-player flailing, but I'm increasingly inclined to believe she's mafia, and doesn't know what to do or who to accuse because she already knows who's who. She said it herself at the start of the Day: all she wants is her own survival.

PPE: Oh right, we can vote to extend! We should do that!
IcyTea: Do we use our lynchvote to push for an extension, or can we request it separately?

Oh wait, now we're thinking Naturegirl really is just confused-town. In which case my crazy bussing theories are pointless. So... disregard previous post?

Anyway. Let's try something new and weird.

IonMatrix: You were so excited for this game before it started... are you still? Why or why not?

Ok, after reading through what happened recently, something else stood out to me as quite bizarre. Superdorf's behaviour.

After my post here, Superdorf seemed to swing round to my point of view entirely. Or much further in fact: I think that a real case hasn't been made for Naturegirl's lynching, as no real cases have been made, not that she's town. I would say Naturegirl has, overall, been one of the scummiest-looking players this game, though her vote on Persus apparently stood out more to other people than to me. I think that was fairly clear in my initial response. Superdorf here seems to be acting on the hypothesis that she's town. Or talking on that assumption? I'm not sure what to make of "now we're thinking".

It's a very odd choice of words. Is there a "we" in mafia? Are cases built and opinions held collectively, rather than individually or corraboratively? I think not. And yet superdorf seems very happy to swing into the idea that the default position is that of thinking of Naturegirl as confused town. If anything, I'm getting the impression that the default read on Naturegirl is scum/sk/deeply unhelpful town, and that's still the read I have, despite my recent encouragement of her actual engagement with the scumhunting process. Someone talking from what you might call the general perspective isn't somehing I trust.

Wonderful!
Unvote
Extend
Also, I feel like I want to change my mind on a bunch of stuff really really fast. Is that a bad thing?

This sudden swing is very unusual coming from an experienced player in this position. I'll explain why.

Sudden swings from strong players aren't too unusual. 4Mask exhibited one with his vote on Naturegirl here, and while I dislike the fact that he simply posted one line rather than a case describing Naturegirl's behaviour through the game and why it is scummy, his play certainly makes sense. So does superdorf's vote on Naturegirl that came immediately after, which at least gives some kind of reasoning. The key thing here however is that the votes changed because something occurred: Naturegirl's vote on Persus.

But nothing happened between Superdorf voting Naturegirl and Superdorf unvoting, (unless you count Superdorf finding out you can vote and extend simultaneously, which shouldn't really change where their vote and suspicions lie.) This makes the sudden turnaround seem very dubious to me.

While I can't approve of engaging in analysis based on two people being scum, given the multitude of possible twosomes, it does look a lot like I made a post Superdorf very much wanted someone to make here, criticising 4mask and giving my own take on Naturegirl's bandwagon behaviour. Suppose Naturegirl and Superdorf are scum: it's clearly preferable for Superdorf to act as if 4mask is scummy than to keep voting Naturegirl.

Leaving Naturegirl's alignment aside, I still find these instant turnarounds, apparently only on the basis of someone else's opinion, essentially similar to the bandwagons that have occurred depressingly frequently this game. In fact, this instant shift in vote is somewhat more suspicious coming from a player who has played enough to be able to form their own opinions and vote for their own suspects.

Superdorf: Why exactly did your opinion of Naturegirl and 4mask change so rapidly that you went from voting Naturegirl for the lynch to not even pressuring her, and from pursuing a lynch 4mask started to considering 4mask as a member of the scumteam?

[Naturegirl1999]

No one really jumped out as suspicious to me

NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.

Mafia generally don't jump out at you, kiss you on the forehead, introduce themselves as Salvini Uspicious and invite you back to their hideout to try mamma's speciality beef rigatoni. Mafia sometimes lurk, they sometimes brazenly strut about like they own the place, but most of the time, they try to act like normal people.

You need to reread the thread, or parts of it, or just the posts of certain people, and look hard and carefully at how they act and find something that doesn't seem right, like someone lying or messing with the truth, going back on what they said, avoiding answering properly, anything like that.

Do they exhibit any of these things the community thinks are signs someone is mafia, scum tells? It would be helpful of you to look through this page, pick out a couple of scumtells, and look through the thread to see if anyone exhibits them. There's more to scumhunting than scumtells, but they're a good place to start.

Or else we'll lynch you for not helping, or build a case against you in which we put forward strong arguments that you're mafia, based on bandwagoning and you not helping. This almost happened to you already. Your reprieve, as far as I can tell, came because I don't like lazy lynches and Superdorf also wanted to extend.

Ah! Thank you! I'd not thought to ask myself... and come to think of it, maybe I should expect her to be more coordinated if she's in a scumchat, not less.

And knowing this, a canny scumbuddy would let her act uncoordinatedly, or even orchestrate flailing to make her seem natural and waste town time.
And knowing I'd say that, a very canny scumbuddy would stop her acting in such a flaily manner, and...

In other worlds, welcome to the wonderful world of WIFOM. I suspect that thinking about whether someone's recieving guidance won't get one very far.

I guess playing too much mafia erases any senses of humor, at least when playing mafia.

I don't think so. I find my own little witticisms very funny indeed.

    Two: with this in mind, extension or not I see no sign of Persus participating and yes, lacking anything else I would have preferred no extension and a lurker lynch.  However, with activity having picked up a bit this evening and someone catching my attention, extend.

This on the other hand is BS.

I didn't understand which bit is "BS". The extension? The preference for a lurker lynch? The assessment of your activity?
Not a scumhunting point, but I'd like to know for mafia understanding generally.

Spoiler: spoilered for size (click to show/hide)

Nope.  I won't, in fact.

...Tomorrow. Tomorrow I will want answers.

But yeah I suppose Naturegirl1999's vote shenanigans have been pretty bizarre. Votes Persus because bandwagon, backs off when she gets pressured on it, votes you over quote confusion, backs off when she gets pressured on it, bounces that vote to me, backs off when she gets pressured on it...

It's possible we're just looking at new-player flailing, but I'm increasingly inclined to believe she's mafia, and doesn't know what to do or who to accuse because she already knows who's who. She said it herself at the start of the Day: all she wants is her own survival.

PPE: Oh right, we can vote to extend! We should do that!
IcyTea: Do we use our lynchvote to push for an extension, or can we request it separately?

Oh wait, now we're thinking Naturegirl really is just confused-town. In which case my crazy bussing theories are pointless. So... disregard previous post?

Anyway. Let's try something new and weird.

IonMatrix: You were so excited for this game before it started... are you still? Why or why not?

Ok, after reading through what happened recently, something else stood out to me as quite bizarre. Superdorf's behaviour.

After my post here, Superdorf seemed to swing round to my point of view entirely. Or much further in fact: I think that a real case hasn't been made for Naturegirl's lynching, as no real cases have been made, not that she's town. I would say Naturegirl has, overall, been one of the scummiest-looking players this game, though her vote on Persus apparently stood out more to other people than to me. I think that was fairly clear in my initial response. Superdorf here seems to be acting on the hypothesis that she's town. Or talking on that assumption? I'm not sure what to make of "now we're thinking".

It's a very odd choice of words. Is there a "we" in mafia? Are cases built and opinions held collectively, rather than individually or corraboratively? I think not. And yet superdorf seems very happy to swing into the idea that the default position is that of thinking of Naturegirl as confused town. If anything, I'm getting the impression that the default read on Naturegirl is scum/sk/deeply unhelpful town, and that's still the read I have, despite my recent encouragement of her actual engagement with the scumhunting process. Someone talking from what you might call the general perspective isn't somehing I trust.

Wonderful!
Unvote
Extend
Also, I feel like I want to change my mind on a bunch of stuff really really fast. Is that a bad thing?

This sudden swing is very unusual coming from an experienced player in this position. I'll explain why.

Sudden swings from strong players aren't too unusual. 4Mask exhibited one with his vote on Naturegirl here, and while I dislike the fact that he simply posted one line rather than a case describing Naturegirl's behaviour through the game and why it is scummy, his play certainly makes sense. So does superdorf's vote on Naturegirl that came immediately after, which at least gives some kind of reasoning. The key thing here however is that the votes changed because something occurred: Naturegirl's vote on Persus.

But nothing happened between Superdorf voting Naturegirl and Superdorf unvoting, (unless you count Superdorf finding out you can vote and extend simultaneously, which shouldn't really change where their vote and suspicions lie.) This makes the sudden turnaround seem very dubious to me.

While I can't approve of engaging in analysis based on two people being scum, given the multitude of possible twosomes, it does look a lot like I made a post Superdorf very much wanted someone to make here, criticising 4mask and giving my own take on Naturegirl's bandwagon behaviour. Suppose Naturegirl and Superdorf are scum: it's clearly preferable for Superdorf to act as if 4mask is scummy than to keep voting Naturegirl.

Leaving Naturegirl's alignment aside, I still find these instant turnarounds, apparently only on the basis of someone else's opinion, essentially similar to the bandwagons that have occurred depressingly frequently this game. In fact, this instant shift in vote is somewhat more suspicious coming from a player who has played enough to be able to form their own opinions and vote for their own suspects.

Superdorf: Why exactly did your opinion of Naturegirl and 4mask change so rapidly that you went from voting Naturegirl for the lynch to not even pressuring her, and from pursuing a lynch 4mask started to considering 4mask as a member of the scumteam?

What I meant by no one jumps as suspicious, is that I went back and reread, and found everyone acting similarly. I can go back again and see if I find something out of place

[Superdorf]

Ah! Thank you! I'd not thought to ask myself... and come to think of it, maybe I should expect her to be more coordinated if she's in a scumchat, not less.

And knowing this, a canny scumbuddy would let her act uncoordinatedly, or even orchestrate flailing to make her seem natural and waste town time.
And knowing I'd say that, a very canny scumbuddy would stop her acting in such a flaily manner, and...

In other worlds, welcome to the wonderful world of WIFOM. I suspect that thinking about whether someone's recieving guidance won't get one very far.

Mm, fair enough. I need to get a hold again of the logic patterns this game involves... it's been a few months; I'm off my game!
Also, cool that we can stick alt-text on stuff like this! I didn't know that was a thing.

Ok, after reading through what happened recently, something else stood out to me as quite bizarre. Superdorf's behaviour.

After my post here, Superdorf seemed to swing round to my point of view entirely. Or much further in fact: I think that a real case hasn't been made for Naturegirl's lynching, as no real cases have been made, not that she's town. I would say Naturegirl has, overall, been one of the scummiest-looking players this game, though her vote on Persus apparently stood out more to other people than to me. I think that was fairly clear in my initial response. Superdorf here seems to be acting on the hypothesis that she's town. Or talking on that assumption?

I'm... kinda just asking a lot of "what-ifs" right now? I'm not sure what's what yet, so I keep second-guessing myself... but I want answers, so I make a lot of noise anyway. It's a strange combination. I'm not sure yet if it's working or no.

I'm not sure what to make of "now we're thinking".

It's a very odd choice of words. Is there a "we" in mafia? Are cases built and opinions held collectively, rather than individually or corraboratively? I think not. And yet superdorf seems very happy to swing into the idea that the default position is that of thinking of Naturegirl as confused town. If anything, I'm getting the impression that the default read on Naturegirl is scum/sk/deeply unhelpful town, and that's still the read I have, despite my recent encouragement of her actual engagement with the scumhunting process. Someone talking from what you might call the general perspective isn't somehing I trust.

Oh. Oh yes! I should not be saying "we". Why am I saying "we"? I will stop saying "we".

Wonderful!
Unvote
Extend
Also, I feel like I want to change my mind on a bunch of stuff really really fast. Is that a bad thing?

This sudden swing is very unusual coming from an experienced player in this position. I'll explain why.

Ah, thank you! I will keep this in mind.

Sudden swings from strong players aren't too unusual. 4Mask exhibited one with his vote on Naturegirl here, and while I dislike the fact that he simply posted one line rather than a case describing Naturegirl's behaviour through the game and why it is scummy, his play certainly makes sense. So does superdorf's vote on Naturegirl that came immediately after, which at least gives some kind of reasoning. The key thing here however is that the votes changed because something occurred: Naturegirl's vote on Persus.

But nothing happened between Superdorf voting Naturegirl and Superdorf unvoting, (unless you count Superdorf finding out you can vote and extend simultaneously, which shouldn't really change where their vote and suspicions lie.) This makes the sudden turnaround seem very dubious to me.

I second-guessed myself. Now I'm re-second-guessing myself. I accept that this makes me look bad, and I'm gonna do it anyway because I'm trying to chase down everybody at once with 3 days' worth of posting and I'm not really aware of a better way to do it.

While I can't approve of engaging in analysis based on two people being scum, given the multitude of possible twosomes, it does look a lot like I made a post Superdorf very much wanted someone to make here, criticising 4mask and giving my own take on Naturegirl's bandwagon behaviour. Suppose Naturegirl and Superdorf are scum: it's clearly preferable for Superdorf to act as if 4mask is scummy than to keep voting Naturegirl.

Oh I should clarify... that "Wonderful" was in reference to IcyTea's clarification of the extension-vote rules. I got ninja'd, and didn't think to quote the post properly...
But yes, I was happy to see your post. I was happy to see your post because it gave me a new position to think about.

Leaving Naturegirl's alignment aside, I still find these instant turnarounds, apparently only on the basis of someone else's opinion, essentially similar to the bandwagons that have occurred depressingly frequently this game. In fact, this instant shift in vote is somewhat more suspicious coming from a player who has played enough to be able to form their own opinions and vote for their own suspects.

You overestimate me... but yeah, that's fair. I gotta stop sheeping people like this. It's lazy, and it just drags me in circles. I've done this before; it's a unfortunate habit of mine as town. I'm trying to kick it.

Superdorf: Why exactly did your opinion of Naturegirl and 4mask change so rapidly that you went from voting Naturegirl for the lynch to not even pressuring her, and from pursuing a lynch 4mask started to considering 4mask as a member of the scumteam?

'Cos I keep suddenly asking myself "What if this player is scum instead of this one?", and restructuring all my opinions to match. I'm jumping from track to track, trying to chase after all the things all at once... and it's not working is it?

Well. Maybe. I do still think IonMatrix is pulling some seriously strange shenanigans. No regrets there.
Naturegirl1999: I'm curious where you stand at the moment, so I'm gonna ask you the same question I asked IonMatrix last night: if you had to lynch somebody right now, who would it be? Why?
Pooka: Care to weigh in on this recent kerfuffling?