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Author Topic: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)  (Read 57883 times)

Xantalos

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #150 on: December 29, 2015, 09:31:07 pm »

Yep. First saw it a few weeks ago - I really wish that Lucas had actually gone though with him being revealed as the villain in AOTC.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2015, 09:32:02 pm »

Yep. First saw it a few weeks ago - I really wish that Lucas had actually gone though with him being revealed as the villain in AOTC.

Agreed.  I think consensus on the prequel trilogy would be totally flipped from what it is today.
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2015, 09:40:34 pm »

My biggest gripe with the movie was how quickly Finn went from "stormtrooper that refused to shoot at people" to "gleefully killing large numbers of people". I was expecting him to be hesitant about violence, only resorting to it in a time of crisis, but good lord was I wrong.
I'm having to review the sequences in my mind (whose video record of the film isn't necessarily authentic and/or complete) but I think there were two things that turned him into a 'killing machine'.

Self-defence - It starts with him having hoped to have gotten out FO ship by getting a sympathetic pilot to just get him out of there, but then things go not as smoothly as they could and he has to shoot at anything/anyone trying to stop them.  This motivation happens at least a couple more times through the movie.

Love - At first it's just "they're attacking a defenceless girl, I must help!", which strikes a chord with the moment he decided he wasn't going shoot the defenceless villagefolk, under orders.  It turns out he didn't need to help her, but then he gets actual feelings for her, and now he's primed to even head into the Mordor and fight Sauron to rescue his Frodo(ette)...


When he doesn't feel immediately threatened, he's happy to just go to the rim and disappear... ideally with Rey - but he couldn't even force her to accompany him, if she was so determined to go elsewhere.  And that might have happened if the attack hadn't happened and created both the personal and love-interest threats that send him into action mode...


(Now, if the First Order had been a bit longer before landing at the bar castle, he would have left, regardless of the relative timing of the Resistance counter-attack, any attack on the gun planet would have been lacking his expertise and (dubious, but definitely plot-useful) personal intervention.  Of course that's from the viewpoint of the omniscient Plot God, who could probably have thrown something else into the mix, like Rey having pulled out yet another a vital fuse whilst still trying to escape past the point that Finn and the others didn't find her.)
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Kot

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #153 on: December 30, 2015, 03:10:33 am »

I have a question - FN-2187 being Stormtrooper and all, but why exactly do you take an sanitation worker to assault an village? I mean, there's a lot more of them around so I don't get why would he be distracted while he's doing very important work of cleaning up after Kylo's temper tantrums?
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #154 on: December 30, 2015, 03:15:22 am »

Plot reasons, obviously.
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Xantalos

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #155 on: December 30, 2015, 03:22:23 am »

I have a question - FN-2187 being Stormtrooper and all, but why exactly do you take an sanitation worker to assault an village? I mean, there's a lot more of them around so I don't get why would he be distracted while he's doing very important work of cleaning up after Kylo's temper tantrums?
Kylo probably just grabbed whichever stormtroopers were in his way when he was going to assault the village.

In other words, he's such a fuckup that he caused the entire event chain of the movie.
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NRDL

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #156 on: December 30, 2015, 03:23:21 am »

Possibly a promotion.  Didn't he say to Rey that he decided to leave the First Order after his "first battle"?  Must've thought he was field-ready.  It's the little mistakes like that end up fucking over your super-weapon. 
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SalmonGod

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #157 on: December 30, 2015, 03:24:51 am »

I have a question - FN-2187 being Stormtrooper and all, but why exactly do you take an sanitation worker to assault an village? I mean, there's a lot more of them around so I don't get why would he be distracted while he's doing very important work of cleaning up after Kylo's temper tantrums?

It's a military establishment.  All roles are filled by soldiers.  Same way a guy who's trained to man the guns on a navy ship will also take his turns cleaning toilets, doing mundane maintenance, working the mess hall, etc.

According to the book, FN-2187 was actually regarded as the most promising stormtrooper in his class.
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SOLDIER First

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #158 on: December 30, 2015, 03:25:42 am »

sidenote: i cant believe finn and poe are dating
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Kot

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #159 on: December 30, 2015, 04:01:03 am »

I have a question - FN-2187 being Stormtrooper and all, but why exactly do you take an sanitation worker to assault an village? I mean, there's a lot more of them around so I don't get why would he be distracted while he's doing very important work of cleaning up after Kylo's temper tantrums?

It's a military establishment.  All roles are filled by soldiers.  Same way a guy who's trained to man the guns on a navy ship will also take his turns cleaning toilets, doing mundane maintenance, working the mess hall, etc.

According to the book, FN-2187 was actually regarded as the most promising stormtrooper in his class.
Yeah, I get that, that's why I said "being Stormtrooper and all", but you know, I don't really think that an guy who is supposed to take part in planetary assaults should, you know, go around and do sanitary work. Shoudln't strike teams be a bit... more... elitist? Dunno, I just thought that's weird because on one side he's a FUGGEN STORMTROOPER, but on the other side he doesn't really seem to be that much of a military guy, which gives him an apparance of a lost recruit that was on his way to scrub toilets and found himself in a war.
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Putnam

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #160 on: December 30, 2015, 04:01:52 am »

(Ten pages behind... might have already been said.)
I like the concept behind Snoke but his look is just...horribly fake looking. Probably one of my least favorite thing in the movie, really. He just kinda looked out of place amidst all the really good special effects.
When it came to the destruction of the world and the collapsing of the "throne cavern", it's made quite obvious that this is his hologram (or something very similar) so it is fake.

And, rather than being genuinely a larger being, like the Goblin King in The Hobbit who is the biggest guy by far (either because he is, or making him, the guy in charge), I suspect it'll end up more like a Wizard Of Oz 'ignore the man behind the curtain' thing.

Well, it wasn't the size that bugged me. I figured that was just the hologram. But it was the really fake looking face that bugged me. Could be a trick of some sort but it didn't really seem that way to me.

Andy Serkis is so ubiquitous in performance capture CG, his face almost looks fake by itself.

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #161 on: December 30, 2015, 07:28:34 am »

My take on Rey's force competence is more along the lines that when she resisted Kylo's mindprobe to the point of reversing it, she also inadvertently got a hint of what training he does/did. Combined with the stories on Jedi she read, and well...
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Starver

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #162 on: December 30, 2015, 01:14:40 pm »

My take on Rey's force competence is more along the lines that when she resisted Kylo's mindprobe to the point of reversing it, she also inadvertently got a hint of what training he does/did. Combined with the stories on Jedi she read, and well...
Despite my general incredulity about the whole affair, that was what I gathered at the time from external view of the mental tussle over the memory of the star-map.

A great but untrained (force-)mental strength pushed around by the weaker aggressor.  It'd be like you never having had to fight before but finding you had unusually strong bones, thick hide and extended stamina when you're set upon by an unarmed juvenile street-thug.  He keeps hitting you, perhaps knocking you down, but he can't stop you from getting back up again, and you realise that he's just swinging at you in a frenzied but predictable manner that you block and dodge until he's worked up a sweat.  You're probably capable of trying some hitting back, but he's not willing to act as your punchbag, so that's when he gives up and runs off.  That's what happened in the interrogation chair.

Rey has felt the flexing of mental muscles she never realised she had, nor exercised.  It's an excuse, therefore, for her to explore that mental musculature and put the Jedi glamour on the guard (not quite getting it right the first time).

But it still doesn't entirely work for me.  She's only just learnt how to roll with the punches, and now she's trying to master the non-physical version of Drunken Monkey, or some-such advanced martial art, which leads the opponent into a merry dance entirely of the practitioner's choosing.

And by the time of the actual physical fight, she totally requires Ren's distracting injuries and her own previous (perhaps unconsciously always Force-mediated) staff-wielding skills to even things up.  But there's no room for mistake on her part, given that it won't be bruising she gets if she lets through a strike.  And this is a one-bladed sword she's swinging, not a double-ended staff...

Ren's the one making all the mistakes.  He's already almost not bested someone who not long since would have been considered cannon fodder.  And on the edge (quite literally) of an advantage he lets her smoothly progress into a trance-state that, amongst other things, activates the stirring background music and rallies to a geologically-created stalemate?


The only explanation is that there's always a large amount of base instinct to Force Use in the best Jedi.  The amphibian autonomic hind-brain, the mammalian behavioural mid-brain and the human (or galaxy-far-far-awayian equivalent to each of these) sentient fore-brain is further supplemented by the spark of Jedi Essence in some way, at some point in the system.  It's how young Annikin "Yipee!!!" Skywalker so intrinsically understands mechanics and podracing, though he doesn't know it. (And I refuse to talk about midichlorians, outside of the Darths And Droids treatment!)  It's how Luke has always been a good natural shot.  It's probably what made Han a good pilot in both his time in the Imperial forces and afterwards (although he was never more than a latent Force User) and how he always often enough managed to talk his way out of situations when black-market deals got a bit sticky.

If it's genetic (and still denying the existence of midichlorians!) then the son of Leia and Han could still end up lacking the gene, or leaving it unexpressed or poorly expressed as a single recessive copy, poor Ren who has the upbringing but not (yet!) either the inner strength or even the physical strength to weigh down upon a backwardly prone opponent.  And I think then we're pretty much guaranteed that Rey is the daughter of someone with a Jedi Gene, even if we can't say for sure that it's the one person the film seems to want to telegraph to us ('cos it could be a bluff, without Lazy Lucas behind the script).
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RedKing

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #163 on: December 30, 2015, 05:15:06 pm »

So apparently, the novelization sheds a lot of light on the state of the Republic and the Resistance. Basically, post-Endor, they try to go back to having a Republic, but the majority of Senators (led by Mon Mothma) pull a post-Versailles "peace in our time" disarmament program and dramatically scale back the Republic's military, having banished the unreconstructed Imperials into far reaches beyond the Republic's borders. Various former Imperial officers and planetary bureaucrats want their gravy train back, and start forming (and/or bankrolling) the First Order. Leia sees the threat and wants the Republic to re-arm but the new Senate doesn't want to spend the cash and/or provoke a new war, thinking the Imperials are contained in the Outer Rim and pose no threat.

Basically, Mon Mothma turns into Chamberlain, and Leia is Churchill. And the Senate picks up its old prequel/Clone Wars habit of debating everything until its too late. Some of the Senate agreed with Leia enough to funnel some resources her way, but the Resistance is basically an unsanctioned paramilitary forces that the Senate turns a blind eye to.

Oh, and the Republic Senate had a rotating capital which happened to be in the Hosnian system during this movie. So Coruscant is still alive and well (and presumably the First Order wants to reclaim it).
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mainiac

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #164 on: December 30, 2015, 05:39:12 pm »

You are mixing your history.  "peace in our time" was post-Munich.
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