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[endlessblaze]

mmmm.....you toady COULD mix in the old demons in with the new random demons....or you could mod them In I guess...I rea on the wiki if you set [LAYER LINKED] to five...(or maybe it was four) that the creature you did that for would join the demons in the first wave and most likely migrate into hell as well.

I was never around when the old demons were in...would be nice to see them but I have never even reached addy...


anyways.....

Except that temples are only going to be place holders.  As stated, there will be no curses or holy wars.  There was no mention of being able to make specific statues/engravings (at least in the last blurb).  What was stated was that you can select a deity appropriate to your civilizations.  There will also be quality modifiers, from "shrine" to "grand temple" I believe.  The only purpose the temple will be to give warm fuzzy feelings to dwarves with devout personalities. 

The only cool thing about this (for now) is that civilizations can start worshiping megabeasts if the critter successfully attacked them enough.  So you can make a grand temple for "Hakkar, a giant winged serpent made of flesh. Beware his poisonous blood!" In this case, sacrifices become mandatory.  At first you can butcher a few pigs here, but to truly stave off the destruction of your fort you will be required to sacrifice sentients on the altar at least once a season.  The method for sacrifice is up to you, but it must be as messy (bloody) as possible.  No true temple will be complete without a fresh coating of blood splatter applied several times a year.  BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!

they are indeed place holder now...but just you wait....this is toady we are talking about.

[LordBaal]

Niddhoger from where did you got all the info about the sacrifices?

[gunpowdertea]

I guess it was fluff from him. It is not that uncommon for people to build "temples" at the moment, now we will actually have a building (well... structure? composite?) that will be included, with dorfs going there to pray. So far, in order for your sacrifices being observed by them you had to make a statue garden or somesuch to designate a meeting place (or create a meeting "zone"). At the moment it does add to the "role playing" or storytelling aspect of dorf mode, but with possible expansions. And when the Random Number God gives you a being as described you cannot expect a player to let only fluffy wabbits frollick in the pastures... (so I do agree with Niddhoger).

[Itnetlolor]

Up next: Atheism Fortress Challenge.

How long will your fort last without any form religion or worship? As a form of ‼science‼, can one form of insanity (religion to many, based on IRL observations from all walks of life; rather awkward and somewhat painful if you're a faithful/religious person, regardless who/what/how you worship) counter another form of more (self-)destructive insanity (the ‼fun‼ kind that destroys forts)?

I mean, without meditation, or a greater force to blame, when shit goes horribly, how long can a fragile mind handle daily life? Then add in the horrors that happen in terrifying biomes and such. How much does faith really matter? If anything, faith is a good source of resolve, and even surprise bravery (martial trance anyone?).

EDIT:
I wonder if belief or disbelief would matter when facing off against demons, necromancers, and such? I mean, I recall there being a status effect in Final Fantasy Tactics where a character with 0 faith gets the Atheist status effect on them, which entirely nullifies magic attacks and status effects (immune to Holy and Ultima, and maybe even time magic (Haste/Slow), for example), but inversely, also nullifies healing and positive status effects from magic (sorry, only crappy little potions can heal you now). Oh yeah, Athiest also renders the magic user useless if they have any spells too; since they no longer work or have any effect (Holy might as well be called 'Lightshow').

[Dwarf4Explosives]

Up next: Atheism Fortress Challenge.

How long will your fort last without any form religion or worship? As a form of ‼science‼, can one form of insanity (religion to many, based on IRL observations from all walks of life; rather awkward and somewhat painful if you're a faithful/religious person, regardless who/what/how you worship) counter another form of more (self-)destructive insanity (the ‼fun‼ kind that destroys forts)?

I mean, without meditation, or a greater force to blame, when shit goes horribly, how long can a fragile mind handle daily life? Then add in the horrors that happen in terrifying biomes and such. How much does faith really matter? If anything, faith is a good source of resolve, and even surprise bravery (martial trance anyone?).

EDIT:
I wonder if belief or disbelief would matter when facing off against demons, necromancers, and such? I mean, I recall there being a status effect in Final Fantasy Tactics where a character with 0 faith gets the Atheist status effect on them, which entirely nullifies magic attacks and status effects (immune to Holy and Ultima, and maybe even time magic (Haste/Slow), for example), but inversely, also nullifies healing and positive status effects from magic (sorry, only crappy little potions can heal you now). Oh yeah, Athiest also renders the magic user useless if they have any spells too; since they no longer work or have any effect (Holy might as well be called 'Lightshow').

For bonus points, transfer each deity's historical figure status into a fitting megabeast/powerful creature, then kill them.

Also, I'm guessing the Final Fantasy Tactics thing is intended as a parody of super-religious people. Disbelieving in magic despite evidence seems like the fantasy equivalent of thinking evolution doesn't happen.

[StupidElves]

Up next: Atheism Fortress Challenge.

How long will your fort last without any form religion or worship? As a form of ‼science‼, can one form of insanity (religion to many, based on IRL observations from all walks of life; rather awkward and somewhat painful if you're a faithful/religious person, regardless who/what/how you worship) counter another form of more (self-)destructive insanity (the ‼fun‼ kind that destroys forts)?

I mean, without meditation, or a greater force to blame, when shit goes horribly, how long can a fragile mind handle daily life? Then add in the horrors that happen in terrifying biomes and such. How much does faith really matter? If anything, faith is a good source of resolve, and even surprise bravery (martial trance anyone?).

EDIT:
I wonder if belief or disbelief would matter when facing off against demons, necromancers, and such? I mean, I recall there being a status effect in Final Fantasy Tactics where a character with 0 faith gets the Atheist status effect on them, which entirely nullifies magic attacks and status effects (immune to Holy and Ultima, and maybe even time magic (Haste/Slow), for example), but inversely, also nullifies healing and positive status effects from magic (sorry, only crappy little potions can heal you now). Oh yeah, Athiest also renders the magic user useless if they have any spells too; since they no longer work or have any effect (Holy might as well be called 'Lightshow').

For bonus points, transfer each deity's historical figure status into a fitting megabeast/powerful creature, then kill them.

Also, I'm guessing the Final Fantasy Tactics thing is intended as a parody of super-religious people. Disbelieving in magic despite evidence seems like the fantasy equivalent of thinking evolution doesn't happen.

This.

I mean, yeah. I am a Christian. But evolution is a thing. It happened. FOSSIL RECORD!

[LordBaal]

I have no religion or God. But I have always thought that if I had I would believe that science doesn't necessarily disproves God, it would prove his works the more awesome and detailed.

[Magistrum]

I also believe that, and young earth creationism is pretty dumb.
The bible also states the the earth as being a circle held suspended over nothing,  so I think science is pretty much on with religion in that.
If your religion makes sense, science will probably agree with it.

[LuckyKobold]

Heck Yes, Bronze Colossus Cultists Ahoy!

[Thormgrim]

I have no religion or God. But I have always thought that if I had I would believe that science doesn't necessarily disproves God, it would prove his works the more awesome and detailed.

This was Einstein's firm position on religion.

[wierd]

mmmm.....you toady COULD mix in the old demons in with the new random demons....or you could mod them In I guess...I rea on the wiki if you set [LAYER LINKED] to five...(or maybe it was four) that the creature you did that for would join the demons in the first wave and most likely migrate into hell as well.

I was never around when the old demons were in...would be nice to see them but I have never even reached addy...

The old demons came in many different forms, but I agree, I miss the old demons too.  The "Little dens of sin" that one could occasionally find, with elves, goblins, and humans inside, and all the engravings of "X performing a depraved act upon Y" one could find in a tentacle demon den were a riot. (And the tentacle demons put up a hell of a fight too.)  That dwarves could actually have a preference for tentacle demons (For their impure intentions!) was icing on the cake.  Apparently enough people were squicked out by them that the great toad deleted them from the world though.

Personally, i'd LOVE to see a kind of hybrid mashup between the current "Hell layer" and the "demon fortresses" of old, including the captured/subjugated sentients running around inside gibbering like madmen, and all the masterwork engravings of horrible things.

The current demons just dont have any character.


What I mean by that, is that the personality profiles used for demons have them all being "every demon for himself" in behavior, with subjugation and subservience to more powerful demons/beings being the norm down there.  Given that they are immortal, cannot reproduce, but still somehow exist in limitless numbers, there MUST be some kind of social order down there.  The most likely being small fiefdoms ruled by a central power figure, with less powerful minions held in thrall.  I would expect to find such enclaves in the hell layer.

[Henny]

Arenas where goblins are pitted against forbidden beasts will become a whole lot more dignified now.

[Naryar]

mmmm.....you toady COULD mix in the old demons in with the new random demons....or you could mod them In I guess...I rea on the wiki if you set [LAYER LINKED] to five...(or maybe it was four) that the creature you did that for would join the demons in the first wave and most likely migrate into hell as well.

I was never around when the old demons were in...would be nice to see them but I have never even reached addy...

The old demons came in many different forms, but I agree, I miss the old demons too.  The "Little dens of sin" that one could occasionally find, with elves, goblins, and humans inside, and all the engravings of "X performing a depraved act upon Y" one could find in a tentacle demon den were a riot. (And the tentacle demons put up a hell of a fight too.)  That dwarves could actually have a preference for tentacle demons (For their impure intentions!) was icing on the cake.  Apparently enough people were squicked out by them that the great toad deleted them from the world though.

Personally, i'd LOVE to see a kind of hybrid mashup between the current "Hell layer" and the "demon fortresses" of old, including the captured/subjugated sentients running around inside gibbering like madmen, and all the masterwork engravings of horrible things.

The current demons just dont have any character.


What I mean by that, is that the personality profiles used for demons have them all being "every demon for himself" in behavior, with subjugation and subservience to more powerful demons/beings being the norm down there.  Given that they are immortal, cannot reproduce, but still somehow exist in limitless numbers, there MUST be some kind of social order down there.  The most likely being small fiefdoms ruled by a central power figure, with less powerful minions held in thrall.  I would expect to find such enclaves in the hell layer.

Yeah, I agree.

Although maybe Toady thought the tentacle demons were just far too much hentai for this game and he decided to tame the demons down ?

[Porpoisepower]

Yeah, i see all those elvish goodness of freedom and safety, with temples filled by horrified to death naked prisoners, who are coming from altar with all guardians and slaughering your folks like true mad queeens!!!

or just next table/well where dorfs can throw a party... just with other name and new noble... or without even...

Just a place to throw a party... or !!MAGMA!!

Anybody know a good way to make Elves set off cage traps?

Also how safe is it to transfer sentient from cages to chains?

[Miuramir]

What I mean by that, is that the personality profiles used for demons have them all being "every demon for himself" in behavior, with subjugation and subservience to more powerful demons/beings being the norm down there.  Given that they are immortal, cannot reproduce, but still somehow exist in limitless numbers, there MUST be some kind of social order down there.  The most likely being small fiefdoms ruled by a central power figure, with less powerful minions held in thrall.  I would expect to find such enclaves in the hell layer.

I think "there MUST be some kind of social order down there" is dubious.  There certainly could be, in some cases; but remember that DF is intended to procedurally generate all sorts of different fantasy realms.  We simply don't have enough data on life as a creature that is not merely freed from the constraints of biology, but has never experienced them. 

How much of not just human history, but of all life we know, is dominated by the need to eat, the drive to reproduce, and the fear of death?  How much has been driven by the great gears of evolution... does this behavior make you more likely to breed before you die, and for your offspring to breed after you? 

I seem to recall some interesting research on the biological benefits of altruism, family & clan relationships, etc.; much of it came down to indirectly helping genes *like* yours pass on.  A creature that was created by godly or magical fiat, with no need or opportunity to breed, no heritage before or after, no genes, no need to eat, sleep, breed, age... would they even understand the *concept* of a society, let alone form one? 

Of course, some fantasy (and actual historical religion) sub-genres have elaborate pantheons, hundreds of hells or layers, and so on.  DF should be capable of generating those, and more; one world might have something bureaucratic and vaguely Chinese, another D&D + Planescape inspired, yet another pure creatures of crawling chaos.  Social structure should be *possible*, and should be procedurally generated to be interesting; but it shouldn't be assumed to be "human-like" for such disparate creatures.