Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Unholy_Pariah]

- The 2PEW variant of the AS is set to cost 23 tokens.
- In the wake of this, all other BS and AS variants bar the standard will have to be re-evaluated and re-priced according to their value, before any can be purchased.
- The AS will completely replace the BS, and carry over as many of its variants as remain practical.
- Avatars of War now cost 50 tokens to allow an appropriate price gap between them and other gear.

Congratulations to the council, you have solved the "possible overcreation of suit variants" problem by making it so that there is absolutely no reason to ever buy a variant suit. ever.

[Corsair]

- The 2PEW variant of the AS is set to cost 23 tokens.
- In the wake of this, all other BS and AS variants bar the standard will have to be re-evaluated and re-priced according to their value, before any can be purchased.
- The AS will completely replace the BS, and carry over as many of its variants as remain practical.
- Avatars of War now cost 50 tokens to allow an appropriate price gap between them and other gear.

Congratulations to the council, you have solved the "possible overcreation of suit variants" problem by making it so that there is absolutely no reason to ever buy a variant suit. ever.

Yeah I agree now buying suit variants (which complete individual playstyles) is way more expensive to the point that we might as well buy mk3's and just spend 13 tokens upgrading the crap out of them rather than buying a 23 token AS unless the mission payouts increase then getting *suits is going to be grindy and annoying because if you die you have to start all over again and they cost so  much.

[Toaster]

What about those of us who already bought an "OP" variant?


I support the idea of increasing the gradient of token values (like doubling every token value across the board) to allow finer tuning.


Speaking of tokens, did you ever get official word as to whether tokens are tied to manufacturing cost or to trust by Steve?  That seems to be a major sticking point; the latter would allow greater "package discounts" which a LOT of the armory was originally balanced around.

Spoiler: I mean, think of the old Synthflesh body. (click to show/hide)

All old numbers here:
Synth-arm: 8 tokens x2
Synth-leg: 8 tokens x2
Cameyes: 5 tokens
Neuro-spine: 10 tokens

Total value: 47 tokens, plus the unwritten cost of the synth torso and head
Actual cost: 20 tokens

[AoshimaMichio]

Tokens are not money. Never have been. I think in distant past pw said this. Tokens represent how much expensive military hardware you are trusted with. More competent you are, more lethal tools you are trusted to handle competently.

Or that how it used to be.

[Unholy_Pariah]

The nuerophotonic spinal column was actually 14 tokens just by itself, so the total is actually 51 tokens + head price + torso price.
thats 30+ tokens worth of "free upgrades" in the synthbody and you guys are cracking a hissy fit because of a measly 4-8 tokens worth of blackboxes of which parts of the design are actually being traded for, not simply taped on for free.

Isnt the whole point of having heph to make new more powerful technologies for the same average cost and to help bridge the power gap between the veterans and the newbies and give us an edge over the UWM?
but no, lets just make everything pointlessly expensive so that the vets never buy it and the newbies can never afford it, that'll solve everything...

[Toaster]

Tokens are not money. Never have been. I think in distant past pw said this. Tokens represent how much expensive military hardware you are trusted with. More competent you are, more lethal tools you are trusted to handle competently.

Or that how it used to be.

Yes, that's how it used to be, but everything going on now seems to suggest otherwise.  I think tokens are stuck in a weird position between uncertain motivation IC (manufacturing cost versus intrinsic value versus trust-based monetary system) versus OOC balancing concerns, and that uncertainty makes it hard to price things; each person has a different combination of IC/OOC opinion on the price, and it turns into a giant mess.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I guess I should go and apply TA balancing principles to the Armory myself.

[Parisbre56]

I believe the Finger/Hand/Arm denomination system is best.
Mostly because I can make puns with it. So that giving someone a tip of a single coin will become known as "giving them the finger".

More seriously, just pay everyone more. Make standard mission pay 10-8 tokens.

[Hapah]

Tokens are not money. Never have been. I think in distant past pw said this. Tokens represent how much expensive military hardware you are trusted with. More competent you are, more lethal tools you are trusted to handle competently.

Or that how it used to be.

Yes, that's how it used to be, but everything going on now seems to suggest otherwise.  I think tokens are stuck in a weird position between uncertain motivation IC (manufacturing cost versus intrinsic value versus trust-based monetary system) versus OOC balancing concerns, and that uncertainty makes it hard to price things; each person has a different combination of IC/OOC opinion on the price, and it turns into a giant mess.

Nailed it.

[Nikitian]

So, maybe follow Xan's lead (he's the dictator, after all!) and renew the whole monetary system altogether?

[Toaster]

Put us on the gold standard.


Since gold should be pretty low value now (what with thousands of planets to mine for rare resources and the ability to synthesize it directly) should have a nice detrimental effect on the economy.

[Hapah]

EDIT: I do have a couple of questions, though.  How will we talk to the council for designs?  Posting marked actions in the Heph thread, and we get responses through PW?  Or will we be doing the old method, where we discuss things with Radio and the council speaks through him?

I'd imagine either works, but first way is cleaner. Process that way is usually: Action/Design Posted -> Someone (usually Radio) brings it up to the Council -> we chat about it a while -> we try to sum up a consensus opinion/decision/thoughts and address it to PW -> He does something with it. I don't see much wrong with that process, except it'll be offering him veto now instead, right?

I, on the other hand, foresee that between the Council being full of metaphorical realism sharks, and apparently our future effectiveness being dependent on building things that sell, the future of our Armory is going to be fairly gray. Or brown and bloom, as it were.

Could you elaborate on this a bit?

I'm personally more concerned about the concept of balance as a whole in this game. I was under the impression that our job is to tip the scales as far into our own favor as possible, and if it doesn't conform to previous pricing patterns, then so be it, because the UWM would still be doing R&D for their own military and that balance would occur out of Red Queen Hypothesis (we make better or cheaper gear, so too does the UWM, so even though the quality of the equipment increases, there is no relative gain) more than us overpricing new equipment that we could mass produce relatively cheaply if necessary.

I'm of a different mind on this, but I am only one and can't claim to speak for the rest. I hate power creep.

Isnt the whole point of having heph to make new more powerful technologies for the same average cost and to help bridge the power gap between the veterans and the newbies and give us an edge over the UWM?

I don't think so, no. My understanding was that Heph was intended to be a sort of artifact testing playground, and then maybe trying to build new technologies with the stuff learned from those artifacts. It's instead shaped up to be industrial-grade Tinker.

[Corsair]

Isnt the whole point of having heph to make new more powerful technologies for the same average cost and to help bridge the power gap between the veterans and the newbies and give us an edge over the UWM?

I don't think so, no. My understanding was that Heph was intended to be a sort of artifact testing playground, and then maybe trying to build new technologies with the stuff learned from those artifacts. It's instead shaped up to be industrial-grade Tinker.

That is exactly its original purpose as PW intended, which he mentioned in one of the ER talks (number 4 I believe). But if you think about it the assaultsuit is an intended byproduct of hep it is just a battle suit with armour made from artifacts. Sure a couple of design flaws were improved but the main advantage is the combination of hexplate, hexbug and hexsand as armour. So both of you are right sort of: by researching artifacts we find ways to do things better and have a whole new set of corners to cut to save money. Also tokens do represent trust (ER talks I can't remember which, 5 possibly) so we need to stop thinking of them as production costs because that just messes up the whole system.

So how about instead of having Heph deal with variants we just have them sell the basic AS for 15 tokens (or perhaps even 10) and we can chop and change for options and loadouts to out hearts content before purchase: like a car but with more guns. So the basic is just armour+MMI that sells for ~10 and you add stuff increasing the price to make it actually do what you want.

[Nikitian]

I'm of a different mind on this, but I am only one and can't claim to speak for the rest. I hate power creep.

(Emphasis mine.) I think that is exactly the problem, but I am happy to hear that it's not the general case for the Council as I rather feared. To be clear: by 'power creep' do you mean 'gradual increase of power over time' or perhaps specifically 'gradual increase of power over time (completely baselessly, on no other reason other than passing of time and changing times)'? Because I wouldn't actually disagree with the second; but the first deserves some real discussion. ((Oh, and for the record: new technologies developed over time don't count as above, but the very same tech yet used in different points of time does.))

I don't want to make up some great speculation based on possibility of understanding the person right (and not misunderstanding them), but I've recently discussed with Syvarris that same question, and I think that this is the real question that should be discussed on topic of Council envolvement. Everything else (including the pricing, new designs and whatnot) stems from it. This is an invitation to that discussion. (And since the Council is Shadowy, the invitation goes to anyone who wishes to talk, be they Council, non-Council or whatever. That's the fine way to preserve the anonymity and have the discussion be public.)
((Oh, and if anyone missed it, I've just foregone the right of first stab on the matter. As a gesture of courtesy, no less. ))


Oh, and yeah, gathering all tinkerers and having them tinker for the greater good of the ARM was indeed one of the major reasons behind founding Hephaestus administration. Fun stuff, sciencing and whatnot was also planned for, but mostly I'd say Piecewise wanted a heavily guarded reservation for the tinker-kin. 

[Hapah]

It could be their opinion, it could not be: I'll let them speak for themselves, or let me speak on their behalf. I suspect that most of them are on roughly the same page as me, but I didn't want to state it as a fact.

I suppose the best way I can summarize it is: I don't think spending 2 tokens today should get you something that was priced at 5 tokens a month ago, or is equivalent to something that is priced at 5 tokens a month ago. Perhaps the better phrase would be 'token creep' instead of 'power creep'? A group of 5 today will almost certainly be stronger than a group of 5 near the start of the game, as some portion have survived multiple missions, with the experience and loot that comes with it. This sort of power progression seems natural.

Does that make sense?