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[Iduno]

First of the new J16 missions: Devil's Reef. It mentions starting on the surface, then going underwater. I haven't gotten that far, but I have seen 4-5 deep ones, and aquaman (TFTD deep one), and a lobster man. So, uh...this will be fun. At least I'm the only one with any ranged weapons. And grenades.

Aquaman was upset that I hit him with a black powder bomb (he's bleeding), so he fired electricity(?) and 1-hit KO'ed my gal. So that's a thing. It wasn't a direct hit, though. One black powder bomb to the head will still kill Aquaman, at least on the surface.

[E. Albright]

I would have thought though that unlocking voodoo lets you train the skill up though.

You need a Voodoo school for that, which comes further down the tech tree.

[E. Albright]

Which is a lot trickier now since supposedly bases are guarded by Hunter-Killers so it's even trickier to yoink their supplies.  Which is fair, heh.

IDK if this will only apply to bases established after J16, or only to "secret bases" as opposed to some other class of bases, but I just hit a Guild base whose supply ships I'd been farming for a year or three and everything in it was normal Guild stuff. No bots to be seen (although I'm not sure I'd not have preferred bots to multiple boomosaurs).

[Rolan7]

Hunter-Killers are interceptors which rarely patrolled the globe already, and now supposedly launch from enemy bases if your craft get too close.  I haven't gotten to bases yet in J16 though.

[E. Albright]

Eww, those. I was thinking the terminator droids for some reason. Aye, there was a little circle around the base - it was maybe twice the size of the initial Airbus radar radius, so pretty tiny. Not much risk of interception, and they didn't seem to do anything like that when I raided it. So I dunno how significant the threat from them will be...

[Dostoevsky]

Since this is the first implementation of it, I assume they're just putting one toe in the water.

I had a vessel get too close while traveling to another mission and get attacked by one this version. Had to fight as my ship couldn't run (HKs being fast and all). To me it seems like a layer of preventing against airbus-raids than anything too serious.

Oh, and I realize it's been a bit but on the topic of fire damage: the deal with it, and the reason why flamers have a purpose, is that a small portion of the damage dealt (5-10) ignores armor values (but not resistances). That's why Church flamers can hurt your armored pirates, for example - only 5-10 damage per hit, but they fire a bunch of times. So rather niche, but it does have some use?

Relatedly, the wand of firebolts does train voodoo skill, so the usually-guaranteed damage there is helpful.

[amjh]

If I understood the PSI training right, everyone except bugeyes needs to complete basic training before they can get XP?

[Aoi]

Taking Grey codex just gives you a gnome now??  Wow yeah!  That's really good.  I haven't confirmed myself but that probably means you could go Back To School without joining the Mutant Alliance, by getting Sci Books from her.  Quite a buff (compared to the *other* way to avoid allying, which seems absurd).

Sci Books was the (most likely) bottleneck for Back to School in the previous versions, right? I was looking through the new HTML Bootypedia and it doesn't show up as available from Gnome anymore. Am I just reading it wrong, because it does seem like a good option for a workaround.

[Rolan7]

Interesting, you're right it doesn't show up on the HTML 'pedia.  It's in the in-game tech tree though.  The issue is probably that it requires Old Earth Books to be researched already (which is easy, a lot of early captures like tough guys/gals give that).

"Gives One Free" usually skips requirements, but there are exceptions like this.  Gnomes also give Cloaking Device and Shadowtech, but only if Shadowmasters is researched first.  The HTML 'pedia doesn't render them either.

I briefly asked on the Discord and this seems to be an intended "skip" to make Grey codex a bit more unique, though there are a lot of other advantages to joining the Alliance.  Purchaseable medical supplies for one.  They're also the good guys

[E. Albright]

If I understood the PSI training right, everyone except bugeyes needs to complete basic training before they can get XP?

No. At least, not necessarily. I have a vague (unreliable-feeling) memory of wands not necessarily training people who had 0 VSkill, but Seductress Dresses definitely let you start accumulating VSkill w/o undergoing training beforehand.

If the issue is > 0 VSkill lets you train with wands, Novice Robes might circumvent that with their bonus VSkill. I can't recall for sure, though. I remember there was something wonky about getting the first points, though.

[Iduno]

Interesting, you're right it doesn't show up on the HTML 'pedia.  It's in the in-game tech tree though.  The issue is probably that it requires Old Earth Books to be researched already (which is easy, a lot of early captures like tough guys/gals give that).

"Gives One Free" usually skips requirements, but there are exceptions like this.  Gnomes also give Cloaking Device and Shadowtech, but only if Shadowmasters is researched first.  The HTML 'pedia doesn't render them either.

I briefly asked on the Discord and this seems to be an intended "skip" to make Grey codex a bit more unique, though there are a lot of other advantages to joining the Alliance.  Purchaseable medical supplies for one.  They're also the good guys

Also, apparently gnomes don't leave when you interrogate them, because they want to share their stories. One gnome and a lot of time gets you everything they know. And allowing you to put off joining the alliance until you have enough gals to handle every pogrom instead of one once in a while helps a lot.

Oh, and I realize it's been a bit but on the topic of fire damage: the deal with it, and the reason why flamers have a purpose, is that a small portion of the damage dealt (5-10) ignores armor values (but not resistances). That's why Church flamers can hurt your armored pirates, for example - only 5-10 damage per hit, but they fire a bunch of times. So rather niche, but it does have some use?

Fire is good for that, damage over time, and causing panic. So good.

For someone who has never played the classic game, should I start with the base game from Steam or should I play Open X-COM?

Open X-com is mostly bug fixes, optional rules, and mods. The original wasn't super bad with bugs, but it could get annoying. I'd go with Open X-com and check the advanced options. It's at least mostly obvious if something makes the game more difficult or easier, even if you don't know exactly how.

[Telgin]

The discussion seems to have largely moved to X-Piratez here, but I assume this is still the right place to talk about Open X-COM in general.

For someone who has never played the classic game, should I start with the base game from Steam or should I play Open X-COM?  I know I have to buy the original first either way, but I'm unsure if it runs tolerably on modern computers.  On the flip side, I know Open X-COM has fixed a lot of bugs in the original and works fine on modern computers, but I know it also changes some of the game rules a bit in ways that make the game easier in some ways and harder in others.  There's no item limit or money sapping dirt bugs, but the AI is smarter in some ways from what I gather, and last I read the aliens made use of reaction fire much better than X-COM soldiers in ways that made the game much harder.

[Rolan7]

Oh you should 100% play the original *through* Open-XCOM, yes.  You're right that there are some differences, most notably the lack of item limits (and the various bugs- the originals were very rushed).  But the AI is actually very true to the original, with some configuration options to make it better.  It's been a point of some contention actually, that they stick so close to the original.  X-Piratez actually uses an expanded build which diverges from that vision a bit.

The limitations and space-saving quirks of the original might be worth a few minutes of futzing about, but Open-XCOM is dedicated foremost to preserving the original games.  With UI improvements, but mechanically almost identical without mods.

Also, apparently gnomes don't leave when you interrogate them, because they want to share their stories. One gnome and a lot of time gets you everything they know. And allowing you to put off joining the alliance until you have enough gals to handle every pogrom instead of one once in a while helps a lot.

Yes that's good to point out.  You can tell in the tech tree because there's no "item destroyed" entry.  Not that I noticed, it was a pleasant surprise!

And I agree with your editted-in response to Telgin re: OpenXCOM

[zaimoni]

For someone who has never played the classic game, should I start with the base game from Steam or should I play Open X-COM?

Open X-COM, definitely.  Easy-mode mods that ship with the base game are TFTD damage (the aliens won't luck out either) and no night missions.  You also get conveniences like sorting soldiers.

You definitely want something to enable sorting soldiers (most of the third-party loaders do this for the Windows CD-ROM version).

[Rince Wind]

OpenX-Com also makes the game a lot more playable by modern standards. Hotkeys save a lot of time, the game can get frustrating when you have to do everything with the mouse.
I haven't played it without mods, but I guess you can now open doors without walking through them, TftD style?