Rolepgeek: Welcome back again.
I'm going in order through your post, so I'll start here:
I don't know if it is. Indeed, I never said if it was or not. It was Mr. Zero who said it was confusing. So, I would advise you to ask him.
If you want my opinion, however, I don't think it's particularly confusing, though it sheds very little light on the situation, since none of the people being accused were night-killed, and he was voting Kleril, I believe. Just scum waiting it out, I suppose.
@Rolepgeek: If you would be a mafia member, would you try to NK one or more IC's regarding their higher experience?
Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.
To clarify; I would not night-kill them based solely on their experience. I would try to night-kill in such a way to sow dissent and confusion, and killing the ICs doesn't necessarily do that. And, since I'm still learning, it's good to let them do stuff and give IC advice, which NQT did far less last game after he was NKed.
Anyway, what is your thoughts on these outcomes? Especially directed to Imp and MrZero, as kleril came up vanilla. There was noone that suspected Persus or anything... So it makes me think it's more off a Squill type thing to do. However, This is all speculation.
The lynch? Not surprising, i didn't have him on my radar cause he didn't send me scum vibes.
The NK? I'm not exactly sure, but i feel that they eliminated a 'nobody' cause eliminating the high aggressors may have a very suspicious outcome.
To clarify; I would not night-kill them based solely on their experience. I would try to night-kill in such a way to sow dissent and confusion, and killing the ICs doesn't necessarily do that.
Well, i'm very sure that Persus13 NK is confusing, what do you say about this statement of yours?
As for the Persus NK and my statement, that means the scum is playing smart, is all. All scum would want to confuse us. It makes it harder to find them. Or of course, they could be trying to shove suspicion on me.
@RPG why is killing persus confusing?
I don't know if it is. Indeed, I never said if it was or not. It was Mr. Zero who said it was confusing. So, I would advise you to ask him.
Please explain your thinking on why the Persus NK was smart? I happen to think it was too, but I'd like to know your reasoning. And explain how that night kill choice might have been chosen to shove suspicion on you?
Right now it seems pointless to question you - you're claiming you can't even read the thread.
Oh, I've read most of it. That's not the problem.
I understood you were not reading the thread (staring at it sometimes, yes, but NOT reading it) because you said so, and then gave no indication until your most recent post that this had changed.
@Superblackcat, reply #176, concerning my top scums and FoS.
I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.
@Persus, reply #181, multiple questions; Opinion post-behemoth, Opinions about Imp's accusations, and Reasoning for not posting
About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet. I still need to sweep through and process everything.
Huh. Thought there'd be more questions. Time for the more detailed sweep and cursory thoughts to answer SBC and Persus.
Alright, now for the sweep.
Ffffuuuuuu-
Of course there's too many little things I want to dig at for me to get all of them. Figures.
Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.
Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.
No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.
I can't actually READ the posts in the right way. I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long.
I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.
Sorry. >.> Not planned.
Additionally you've said this in answer to others' questions:
I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.
And then you asked for a replacement, though you said you'd still answer questions and such, then tried to do so in the same post, but you included stuff like
I had said Mr. Zero because at the time I thought I'd spotted a post he'd made that had raised my hackles, but I can't find it now
...
And nnnnnnn...superblackcat. Holy crap, I just realized. The post he had right before mine was the one I thought was Mr Zero's. Probably. I can't really tell, and I thought it had been on page 15.
...
continued tomorrow
And of course, it wasn't continued 'tomorrow', or even the day after. So I really didn't think you were up to following the thread, playing here, or answering questions. In fact, you still haven't really 'continued that'. Since you now say that's changed, sure, I'll ask some more. I do have plenty for you.
As it is, I have a question for you. How would you be able to know for sure who would die? You said something similar to Deathsword, but you can't lynch two people, let alone know who would die. Unless, of course, you knew who would be night-killed. But that would make you scum, wouldn't it?
I've been reading other Mafia games. Variants of that phrase have been said to people in many games, more or less directly phrased, said usually to one player but sometimes to more than one. Typically though not always used on lurkers.
*sigh*
Excuse me a moment folks, but this is frankly inexcusable.
unvote
Borno: I've been tracking when you log on, you've been active many times since the day started and haven't said a single word, Post or die.
All right. I guess this is the point where I have to agree with Leafsnail, because I'm not seeing any of the active people as scum right now.
Solifuge. Play or die.
Unvote Solifuge.
Vote major_sepiroth. Post or die.
Like I've said. numerous. times. now, I'm voting for Pandar because he either needs to play or die for a whole slew of reasons you can figure out by READING THE THREAD.
Most people would consider "not playing" a fairly bad playstyle. You continue to impress me with how little you know of the game and mafia in general due to your lack of knowledge or playing. You not only refuse to play, but also detract negatively from all the conversation by forcing players to tell you to play or die, and even going as far as to say that you won't do anything about anything.
In any case, you're being quiet and I have a very hard time believing you'd sign up for this responsibility and lurk your fucking face off if operating as an honest sort of fellow.
So that's the case: wake up and look lively, or die, scumbucket.
Speak now or die.
Lynch All Lurkers it is. Games should not have to resort to this at lylo.
Mii, get in here or die.
Copclaims do not make you exempt from participation. Elaborate or die.
My primary suspect had vanished, and I'd been reminded that your behavior couldn't be a post restriction or similar, so it seemed a good time to give you a be useful or die ultimatum.
On that note, that post is a good start, but it's still not especially impressive. The bit about Toaster switching over as soon as Dariush got more votes than you simply isn't true, for instance. You'll need to do more if you want to not die today.
I'm going to have to make a vote sometime, and Dariush gets it with this message:
Scumhunt or die. I'm tired of your uselessness.
Here's a pair used by the same player on two different people, in the same game day, in two posts 14 hours apart:
Okay, whatever Mr.Person has done up till now, it simply doesn't compare to admitting to backing off your vote under threat of being lynched. I can't believe you actually said that, but you did. Go hang, Orangebottle.
Hahahaha... No. We don't lynch Orangebottle today. There is no reason to, and that shift you just did was really obnoxious and uncalled for. I have no idea WHY you're trying to get yourself lynched (though, if you're a Jester, you are doing it poorly), but it's stupid, and even though I don't think you're scum, I will have no problem lynching you at this point just to prove a point. That point is "Don't screw with us." Start posting coherently or die.
Extend. TolyK needs to follow through on his promises and/or die.
As of my post you refer to, it's how I chose to speak to each of you, for the reasons I explained. Are either or both of you actually going to die in play? We'll see. These are ultimatums, not direct and pure threats. After all, stuff like this happens too:
requesting him to speak or die. He spoke. Your reply?
Either or both of you may take actions that satisfy the ultimatum without dying in game. I'm fine with that.
Deathsword. I'm seriously disappointed in you now, in you as a player and in you as an 'example of how to play', which is what I believed an IC would act as.
You're acting like you have this 'right to lurk', and you absolutely don't.
Just look at your posts on lurker - This whole game you've only made 11. I double checked them all; two of the 11 have been only use of IC voice, and including those, 5 of them have had nothing I can recognize in any fashion as scumhunting. I'm being really generous in this assessment. Anything resembling a question, anything resembling analysis; anything more than answering questions, apologies, or IC voice I'm calling 'scumhunting' - it doesn't seem to be a joke, and even if it is, I'm calling it garbage. Your activity and effort in this game, at least inside this thread, has been poor and steadily getting worse. I'm calling you on it.
So. As you've shown us, Deathsword is even less active than me. So why are you voting me, and not him? You obviously think he's worthless as an IC. So what's your reason in going after me in particular? Is it because I 'personally attacked you'? You know, where I criticized your playstyle?
Almost like you're doing here. Huh. Weird.
Well now, look at the size of that deflection (adds more Scummy points to Rolepgeek's total). None the less, I'll answer some of these questions.
First off - read what I wrote again. Where do I say or show that Deathsword is "even less active than you"? I make no comparison to your activity in what I said about Deathsword's activity, or anywhere else prior to this thread that I am aware of. Where did you get that idea from, that "As you've shown us, Deathsword is even less active than me."?
I'll make that comparison here now though, lets see if it's true, what you assert from I don't know where....
As of right now, Deathsword's made 13 total posts in the game. Rolepgeek has made 17. In raw 'activity' measured by # of posts, Rolepgeek has indeed been more 'active' than Deathsword.
In terms of scumhunting (which is an activity I consider primary when I consider 'activity', not post count), Deathsword has made a total of 7/13 which contain at least a single sentence I can recognize as Scumhunting. In some posts, it's literally a single sentence.
Rolepgeek has made a total of 6/17 posts which contain at least a single sentence I can recognize as Scumhunting. In some posts, it's literally a single sentence.
Furthermore, Rolepgeek... my search through your posts reminded me of something else you said:
Top town...Deathsword, I think, still, since his posts have plenty of good activity and scum-hunting from what I can tell when he posts, and Darvi, I think, for similar reasons, though he's more active. May be that he fits my definition of scum-hunting better is all, though.
We have a really different opinion of Deathsword's scumhunting. Would you please help me understand how to see his posts as having "plenty of good activity and scum-hunting" like you can tell? And I understand you right, that Deathsword, not Darvi, "fits [your] definition of scum-hunting better", which is why Deathsword, not Darvi is your top Town?
Now, back to those deflective questions.
So. As you've shown us, Deathsword is even less active than me. So why are you voting me, and not him? You obviously think he's worthless as an IC. So what's your reason in going after me in particular? Is it because I 'personally attacked you'? You know, where I criticized your playstyle?
Nope. My preferred answer to personal attacks is to distance myself from them, as I've made mention of in a few previous posts that I'd rather not talk to you at all. That means I have to choose between playing this game or not. I've decided, for now, to deal with you. I'd already decided to match your tone as much as I could. You stay polite with me, I'll stay polite with you. We both might prefer that - I know I would. Giving you the choice though; it's me matching you.
So in order to Scum hunt, I need to talk with those not talking, including you; or we can just see your role flip. If you're talking... and you are. So we talk. You still appear highly scummy to my eyes, though I appreciate that you are attempting to scum hunt, though your attempt is focused almost purely upon myself. This is an improvement, and I will trust you further if you continue to improve. That trust has not yet started, but I am watching, and listening. If you're Town, we desperately need you, and I am delighted to place my vote upon the Scummiest player I can find, especially when a day is not about to end and I don't need to consider possible tie-votes or other such issues.
If this seems confusing to you - I am trying to say 'prepare for the possibility of a mislynch' and 'attempt to identify the Scum, be one of them me or not'. By all means, do keep hunting me. But I will find only- or primarily- hunting me suspicious - and others might as well. Were this really the only suspicious thing about you, that might pass.
So, to summarize. 'Other mafia games talk about it, so why shouldn't we talk about it'? Along with a hearty helping of 'You aren't giving the advice I want you to, therefore you're abusing the IC voice'.
Actually, wait a second. This doesn't have anything to do with anything. You're basically criticizing him for doing a good job in a different game. What? Do you think people always have the same amount of time available? Or are you just upset about the reasoning in that advice?
So...you think he's lying? Is that what it is? Why? Because you think it's unlikely, based on your highly in-detail knowledge of Deathsword's RL health?
I have no idea what he's doing with that, lying or anything else. It seems weird to me. It's 'public record' as it were. I wanted to see his response. Pattern of deceptive play? Looking like it to me. Severely biased {guidance}, tuned against town? Looking like it to me. Is it -ever- appropriate to use {excuse for absence}? That one I'm going to say, -no-, not while the player is alive. Were he only present as an {IC voice} and wished to tell us that he could not offer advice for a time, that's innocent. But as a player, no. He can use player level excuse, but not IC level. It's garbage to do otherwise.
Well, if you don't question me, I can't answer you. So...there's that, first off.
Though you "can't answer [me]", you have created an interesting and detailed response. You have indeed 'answered' me, even in the portion where you say that you "can't answer". I didn't expect or not expect to get a useful response, but I'm glad to get one and view it as a hopeful sign that you might continue to interact in information-containing ways.
So...there's that, first off. And while I would disagree about why you've voted me, (unlike Deathsword, I think it's because you have a personal vendetta against me on the grounds of me calling you on your bullshit, even a little) he has a point. If I can't be bothered to read the thread like you say, there is no point in voting me.
Next part of it. I don't see how it's taking an easy out. It gets worse when, as Deathsword noted as well, you look at your reasoning for voting me, and then your claimed reasoning for why his vote is bad. 'No better use for it' vs. 'randomly pushing'. They seem very similar to me. As for controlling how you vote...it's pretty hypocritical for you to say that, since you're trying to control how other people post and play in this game, period(as far as I can tell, with the saying 'Get into this game and play...or die for your failings'. The middle of it is left out, and can be seen above. Context.
You look majorly scummy to me for a bunch of reasons. Some of the biggies: Lurky, unfulfilled promises, overall lack of scumhunting, apparent and claimed lack of focus on game. That I have said I'd prefer not to interact with you is belied by my vote and comments towards you, and by my continued interactions with you. I will feel intense satisfaction if I can come to a clear sense of your Town-ness or Scum-ness; this will allow me to not feel I have as strong a responsibility to directly interact with you this much. The process of getting to that point could even lead me to respect and appreciate your playstyle. (dare I venture to suggest 'us' and 'each other's' instead of 'me' and 'you'? Probably far, far to much to imagine)
Finally, how would you kill him, exactly? Are you able to control the outcome of a lynch? Perhaps you can ensure he dies if he continues to annoy you with a NK? Interesting ideas, I would say.
I refer you back to the earlier portion of this post, where I discussed the ultimatum's wording and apparent general use. My only tools which can kill in this Mafia game are words and votes, both mine and others. All players together control the outcome of lynches. If I could and would NK those who annoy me - I do believe we wouldn't be talking now, you and I.
Rolepgeek asked to replace. When someone asks for that, it usually means they stop posting. You yourself said you voted him because you had nothing else to do with said vote. Now you talk about your previous play, but it is this very same previous play that makes your disregard as to where your vote goes more glaring. Is the vote yours to use as you see fit? Yes. It still does not exempt you from being called out on it.
As an addition, Imp, you never responded to this portion of his post.
I see no questions; that is his response to my response. What sort of further response are you looking for?
Superblackcat - I've swung around to thinking Cat is Town. Reason being Cat's talked a LOT, he's really shown several parts of how he reasons. I can't tell for sure, but I think Cat just looks scummy and sometimes makes bad choices, but with Town intentions. I'm by no means sure, but I think Cat has shown a pattern of play that I can follow and understand, and following it doesn't point to him as being Scum to me. I don't think Cat could have played as he as if he is actually Scum.
Why not? He turned on kleril easily enough once he realized people thought there was something between them. Self-preservation isn't exactly a towny quality. It's a scum one.
This comment of yours contains a question, thus I answer: Everything is a gestalt. If it wasn't, then by your reasoning: Kleril turned on Cat more intensely, and more rapidly, than Cat turned on Kleril. This Kleril is Scum, despite his Town role.
Since instead, truth is (for me) more easily found in wholes, my entire evaluation of Cat and everything he has done so far leads me to believe certain things about him; the only one that matters most is that he is much more likely to be Town than Scum. As he continues to interact, I continue to observe, and in my mind test everything I have gathered about him against the new information and see if my opinion is changing.
3. I doubt we're going to lose. As long as we can get just one scum, our odds drastically improve, statistically and otherwise. More time to get the next one, info on who tried to help them, etc.
What are you basing this belief on? Of the last 42 BM games in the forum - Town won only 7 times. You're partially right, most of the Mafia wins had both Mafia surviving - but even catching one Scum doesn't make it likely that Town will win. I stopped counting how many Mafia wins came after one Scum died when I hit 10 - leaving the most recent 7 Mafia wins unchecked. But even when one Scum is lynched, in past games the single surviving Scum still defeated the Town well over 50% of the time. What's got you so sure of a Town victory?
Ah. Well, then. Why wasn't that said at the beginning, when you voted me? He said you threw it on me because you had nothing better to do with it at the time, because that's why you claimed you put it on me. This sounds like you're coming up with something after the fact, because you didn't have a good reason when you voted me.
Strategy has many forms. One of my goals, both direct and indirect, is to get people talking, especially those who have been talking little. Another is to get people Scumhunting, especially those who have been visibly Scumhunting little. I am perfectly content to be a target of Scumhunting; I consider it a fault to only Scumhunt narrowly. That's a major lesson I've gained from Kleril's mislynch. I -still- might have voted for his death, he appeared massively Scummy to me. But had I looked as widely as I could on D1 I would now feel far less stupid about my involvement in that mislynch. The placement of my vote upon you was not my first nor my only indicator that you appeared Scummy to me; it's been discussed
before by me.
But that's what they are. Added reasons. You stated your primary reason, and the rest are secondary. Order of operations, so to speak. Besides the semantics of the situation, where calling them added reasons doesn't matter one way or another anyway.
See, being okay with a lynch on over half the players we have now is not a particularly town move. It seems really scummy to me, when looked at from that perspective, in fact; 1 scum buddy, one 'oh he's not scum anymore' to leave for when the game is at it's end, and the rest you can mislynch.
Nope; I think in gestalt (and semantics) far more than order of operations as perhaps you do. I think in wholes. And I am VERY disturbed to have such a weak feel of so many players - and it IS because so many of you are lurking both actively and passively. I'm not sure of my Town picks either; but they sure look more Town than any lurky player to me, yep.
to be quite frank, I consider you to be, among the new players here, one of the most possibly dangerous if scum.
On a theory level, I'm flattered and I hope to be very dangerous when Scum; on an actual level you're failing in your logic here.
Reasons, here. You of all people should know you can't say that and not give specifics.
Specifics of? How he's failing in his logic? It's bolded, follows immediately after, and you quote it as well.
The most dangerous Scum are the people who actually are Scum, in this game right now. Those two as yet unfound people. It's fine to go for me, but we cannot afford for you to ignore everyone else, or for you to tolerate low levels of interaction and scumhunting - and you appear to be doing both. I do not protest that you call me and my actions Scum - I protest because you're being lazy about it. You're not working, you're not using anything but convenient easy recent things to support your attack; you look like you're just going through the motions, not that you care about anything other than deflecting attention from yourself. You're scumhunting scummily.
No really? The scum who are actually scum are the dangerous ones? Now that the obvious has been stated, let's look at the rest. You can't ignore everyone else. But that's what extends are for. We pressure you until you crack, and then we pressure the others for a feel on who your buddy is until the end of the day when you get lynched. Or, if you really are town, we pressure you until you crack in a different way, and then we move on and look at your posts with a new light.
Whoever we lynch today, me or anyone, Town or Scum, that passes the edge from playtime to endtime. Use today to prepare for Mylo. Get AS MUCH information today as you can, because if today is a mislynch and tonight there's a kill, there's almost nothing left to work with. Get active peeps. Set yourselves up, work as a team so the Scum are also forced to work as a team or stand out - so that if we mislynch today we are in a great position for tomorrow. Please, my partners. Please get involved and active, so the Scum cannot stand beside you so easily.[/b]
I would say the same to you.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Expound upon both of your comments quoted here, please?
Oh Tiruin. To me you're still my mentor here, you're still the person in this thread I feel the most comfort and rightness in buddying. For this you pass forever, even if you also for other reasons fail.
Hey Squill!
Going to encourage you to talk about a few more things, hope you'll be willing to.
Would you discuss your evaluation, in terms of Town/Scum/null tell, for the play so far of Mr.Zero? Would you do the same for Deathsword?
What? While encouraging players to talk is great and all, especially when you don't insult them or their playstyle, why would you buddy Tiruin? Especially if you think I'm scum, and he'd be replacing me. This would seem suspicious if not for the fact that he isn't playing. >.>
You really following this thread? And understanding it?
I first referred to Tiruin as mentoring me and as someone I could buddy as much as I desired
a week and a half ago.
There's a very large chance that Tiruin cannot be considered as a replacement for anyone in the thread, this is why:
ZU: Spoilspec please-if only to give access to deadchat, thanks. 
Now we don't know if zombie urist gave her access to either or both - but we do know that when she asked if she could replace you, well this was the response.
If nobody ish going to replaace in then I'm volunteering if it affects the game for far too long.
Can you do votecounts and stuff this week? 
I'm suuuuper busy.
I don't even...
:I
Either she isn't acceptable to replace anyone, or she just wasn't accepted to replace you (but maybe could replace an IC). Ergo, you're still here, and still asking for replacement.
As she is not a player, and has requested to be ineligible to become a player, I feel especially free to respond to her in any way I please and to continue doing so.
You think this seems suspicious? I think you're reaching for anything to say about how suspicious I am. Flattering. Welcome back to the game, please keep reading and trying, and consider turning your attention to additional possible Scum candidates. If we mislynch again, I believe we're in grave trouble - even if we lynch correctly as I understand the odds, they are against us. Scumhunting only counts as 'Town points' to me if it's used in a way that appears to be working towards a Town win over time.
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Topic: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN! (Read 136064 times)