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[Tiruin]

So far I'm thinking: Myself, Griffinpup, Griffionday and one of you, Tiruin, and Dariush. I'm not sure who yet. Probably not Dariush.

> Redeeming factors of the last member.
> Why yourself.
> Why Griffionday.
> Why griffinpup.
> Why not Lenglon.
> Why not Nerjin.

[griffinpup]

Hmm... I can see why on reflection what I said could be seen in that light. Some of us played in the last game and I was just meaning to make conversation/speculation about the advantages we have here over last time. I was saying how unlike last time, scum don't have that strategy open to them. They're in permanent doubt over whether their teammates will use the same strategy as them, and we can use that to our advantage. The fact that you're making such a big deal out of how this is a viable strategy make me think you might be a spy using the furor to indicate a strategy to your spy-mates.

I'm assuming this post is an answer to my question...
 

Hmm... I can see why on reflection what I said could be seen in that light. Some of us played in the last game and I was just meaning to make conversation/speculation about the advantages we have here over last time.

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY???  Why did you want to make speculation about the advantages we have this game?

The fact that you're making such a big deal out of how this is a viable strategy make me think you might be a spy using the furor to indicate a strategy to your spy-mates.

OMGUS much?  Regardless, what would you suggest someone do when they see potential communication?  Should they just completely ignore it?

But what I really want an answer to is:

NQT:
Also, why would you SPECIFICALLY POINT OUT A STRATEGY FOR HOW SCUM SHOULD ACT WHEN THEY DOUBLE UP ON TEAMS?

Which you conveniently forgot to mention.  Let me make one thing clear.
I DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THE REST OF THE CONTENT OF THAT POST.  STOP DEFLECTING MY QUESTIONS WITH IT.  WHY DID YOU INCLUDE A VIABLE SCUM STRATEGY IN YOUR POST?

[Tiruin]

EBWOP:

Everyone: Are you tired of waiting? Should I make my choice now, or wait until I get a bit more?

Yes. Make your choice--we've had days to wait, and days to analyze.

I'd like to ask why you're taking so long in deciding, and what obstacles presented themselves in the making of your choice.

I do not want the obvious [to see if they're spy or not] scenario, or anything along those lines because that forms the basic idea of choosing a team.

I'm asking you why, because there's really something up with the indecision as well as the lack of presenting the choices on a regular basis.

Plus reasons and justification on why.

[Lenglon]

Nerjin:
Process of elimination, basically. I'm definitely not sending NQT anymore, or Remuthra/Lenglon.

understandable, eventually you'll need me, but Past Me's actions make leaving me off the team quite reasonable for now.

Griffinpup seems pretty town now; he has good reasons for doing what he does.

agreed.

Tiruin seemed town until that slip I pointed out, which I see as a pretty large point against her, otherwise she'd definitely be on.

What? Sheep, that slip is meaningless. I'm fine with you using it as a pressure point, or maybe if you could show how Tiruin is forming a pattern of behavior where she does that kind of thing over and over to a point beyond reasonable doubt that she's doing it on purpose to change people's impressions of her, but as a stand-alone thing that's not even a slip. I do think Tiruin shouldn't be on the team for reasons of my own, but your reason for keeping her off is pretty horrible.

Griffionday/Shinigami I haven't seen much of, but those calculations and conclusions seem pretty genuine.

eh, they're pretty meaningless to me. I'd call it a nulltell. since the other choices are a little scummy-looking though, I'm happy with putting GriffDay on there.

And Dariush would probably be my last pick of the three, but we'll see what happens.

Sheep:Why Dariush over Nerjin? unless I've been misreading, you think Dariush is a spy, why would you include him?

NQT's explanations don't seem too satisfactory, but I can't really think of anything that would be.

yep.
Sheep and Nerjin: I'm getting pretty tired of you two having a giant debate based on the assumption that I'm somehow a confirmed spy without ever asking me a single question. It looks like a really large waste of time and energy to me. If you have something to say to me or ask me, please, do it.
Tiruin: is that the entirety of your case? somehow I was expecting more for an "/apparently sure/" case on someone.

[griffinpup]

I do think Tiruin shouldn't be on the team for reasons of my own,

What reasons are these?

[Lenglon]

I do think Tiruin shouldn't be on the team for reasons of my own,

What reasons are these?

Suspicious vote pattern + Unusual emotional read. I really don't like the way she upvoted the team you proposed, it seemed out of character for her, and when someone acts out of character it often means that they have hidden or different motivations than what they're saying they have. toss in that emotional read, add a touch of respect for her skill, and a dash of "what are the odds all the scum were on the team that got sabotaged", bake for half an hour, and you get why I think she's a spy.

Sheep's reason for distrusting her on the other hand seems nonsensical to me.

[Griffionday]

NQT:

Griffionday

NQT:  Please, in a sentence or two, let me know if you believe that you would lie low on the first mission if you were scum.  (Dariush, I'm pretty sure I know your answer already, but humor me please)

It depends-- if I were a spy and there were one or two other spies on the team I dare say I'd be tempted to lie low. In general though I would tend to sabotage. That got the spy team in the last game off to an excellent start (especially when the other rebels idiotically voted in Leafsnail for a second time).

So is that what happened then?  You and one of your fellows both ended up on the same team?

Because if you're a rebel that's not your answer to that question.  The answer is you would have lain low: Here you discuss why the first mission was a success, and present for scenerios as equal.  Two of those however involve there being scum on the team and them laying low.  NOWHERE do you mention that: hey that's not that likely.

Sure you select the same team, and give a fairly bullshit reason for why we shouldn't trust Tiruin and Shinigami (Me that is); but NEVER saying that you consider scum likely to have struck if they were on the team.

Then there's the thing that sets you apart from everyone else: you're the only person who seriously considered scum triple voting a possibility.

[Lenglon]

Then there's the thing that sets you apart from everyone else: you're the only person who seriously considered scum triple voting a possibility.

GriffDay: I don't understand the significance of this, could you please explain further?

[Tiruin]

I do think Tiruin shouldn't be on the team for reasons of my own,

What reasons are these?

Suspicious vote pattern + Unusual emotional read. I really don't like the way she upvoted the team you proposed, it seemed out of character for her, and when someone acts out of character it often means that they have hidden or different motivations than what they're saying they have. toss in that emotional read, add a touch of respect for her skill, and a dash of "what are the odds all the scum were on the team that got sabotaged", bake for half an hour, and you get why I think she's a spy.

Sheep's reason for distrusting her on the other hand seems nonsensical to me.

...You don't like the way I upvoted the team because..?
I admit, the context preceding and proceeding said team is mostly idle, stagnant if you could say. It did not have my target in it, and it had me in it, two things I wholly trust at the time, with the former now shifting due to her recent actions (still biased :I shifting though. Hard to explain, but the transparency attempts seem valid in explaining. And I'm really contending with my intuition in seeing Lenglon-Remuthra as scum as intuition says neutral-town)

ANYWAY

How do you view my character, then? I did check and review those others I had on team--with only Shinigami getting my token as the blank due to his lacking posts, but the rest on said team did not contend with my feelings on them at the time.

Tiruin: is that the entirety of your case? somehow I was expecting more for an "/apparently sure/" case on someone.

I will get back to this after ensuring that I've no duties which I need to be done in the next hours.

Because RL x_x
_Sorry.
It (Case @TWS) has contextual backing from the previous days--I'll get to that.


@Griffy(Yes I call him this. 50% for the cuteness, which I guess he doesn't mind, and 50% to differentiate from the other griffin. 50% because he also said so.)

NQT:

Griffionday

NQT:  Please, in a sentence or two, let me know if you believe that you would lie low on the first mission if you were scum.  (Dariush, I'm pretty sure I know your answer already, but humor me please)

It depends-- if I were a spy and there were one or two other spies on the team I dare say I'd be tempted to lie low. In general though I would tend to sabotage. That got the spy team in the last game off to an excellent start (especially when the other rebels idiotically voted in Leafsnail for a second time).

So is that what happened then?  You and one of your fellows both ended up on the same team?

Because if you're a rebel that's not your answer to that question.  The answer is you would have lain low: Here you discuss why the first mission was a success, and present for scenerios as equal.  Two of those however involve there being scum on the team and them laying low.  NOWHERE do you mention that: hey that's not that likely.

Sure you select the same team, and give a fairly bullshit reason for why we shouldn't trust Tiruin and Shinigami (Me that is); but NEVER saying that you consider scum likely to have struck if they were on the team.

NQT gave reasons for not trusting me and you? (bolded part)
...Links please? I don't recall him ever doing that. All I saw (yes, in that link you've got there) is a deal of caution. And then brought up the dictionary on that one part which seems going along your idea there.

Okay pals, we got lucky this first mission. Essentially there are four possible explanations for the success:

Dariush honestly random genned the results and the team was all rebel. (Dariush, NQT, Nerjin and Griffpup are all rebels.)

Dariush honestly random genned the results and the team included one scum (Dariush is a rebel but one or more of NQT, Nerjin and Griffinpup are spies.)

Dariush is scum and fixed the team with one or more spies. (Dariush and one or two of the mission one participants are a spy.)

Dariush is scum and fixed the team with all town to make himself look good when the mission invariably passed.

(Obviously, I know I'm town but I can't expect you all to take my word on it even if I pinky-swear it.)

Given that the first team worked so well, I'm thinking:

NQT
Griffinpup
Nerjin
Remuthra

If the first team was all town, spies would have an incentive not to pass it (tempered somewhat by their desire to blend in), as such we have prima facie reasons to not put forward Tiruin and Shinigami until we have more data.

Dariush is out until I know more about the trustworthiness of Nerjin and Griffpup. Ranger has requested replacement so probably isn't paying attention to the game. That leaves Remuthra as our fourth man. Does this sound like an acceptable team?

Prima facie

> It is used in modern legal English to signify that on first examination, a matter appears to be evident from the facts.

...Oh. Still, it went along caution in my mind at the time.

NQT, can you logically expound on that notion back there?

[Lenglon]

...You don't like the way I upvoted the team because..?
I admit, the context preceding and proceeding said team is mostly idle, stagnant if you could say. It did not have my target in it, and it had me in it, two things I wholly trust at the time, with the former now shifting due to her recent actions (still biased :I shifting though. Hard to explain, but the transparency attempts seem valid in explaining. And I'm really contending with my intuition in seeing Lenglon-Remuthra as scum as intuition says neutral-town)

ANYWAY

How do you view my character, then? I did check and review those others I had on team--with only Shinigami getting my token as the blank due to his lacking posts, but the rest on said team did not contend with my feelings on them at the time.

Your vote on the third team was a stark break in the pattern you had set in the previous votes. After complaining about a lack of discussion before teams were assembled and voted on, to the point of downvoting both previous teams, you then upvoted a team with very little discussion about it.  After repeatedly stating that you didn't trust the first team's composition, you then upvoted a team composed of 2/3 of the members of the first team. (was Nerjin really that problematic?) After displaying caution and showing a tendency to downvote teams you were unsure of, you then upvoted a team containing each of the specific elements you had complained about in both previous teams. that qualifies as a break in behavior patterns to me.

I saw caution, then suddenly recklessness. I saw frustrated attempts to communicate, to discuss, followed by distance and detachment. I saw uncertainty, followed by resolution. I saw a disconnect between yourself in the past, and yourself in the present.
to repeat the story of Tiruin the Spy:
Week 1) knows that there is a spy on the proposed team, doesn't know that said spy is going to lie low, downvotes the team that is sure to pass, expects to look townie for doing so.

Week 2) again, knows there is a spy on the proposed team, is certain the spy isn't going to lie low this time, downvotes the team that is sure to pass, expects to look townie for doing so.

Week 3, team 1) Upvotes team containing spy, that is not sure to pass, so her vote is needed to make it happen. currently looks townie, so probably wont be blamed for the failure.

consistent caution, consistent resolution, consistently scum.
I couldn't figure out how to write the story of Tiruin the Rebel, without giving the reader a "WTF? She wouldn't do THAT!" moment. I tried, but I couldn't build a consistent personality that would act that way you have based purely off of what I saw. So I tried writing the story of Tiruin the Spy. That story was a lot easier. So that's what I think is going on.

[TheWetSheep]

Tiruin:

PFP

Speaking in brevity.

Tiruin:

How isn't he? I don't see how he could've missed the cheesy fact that 3 people are misinforming, while the rest are searching to be informed. Or 4..forgot how many spies were there. Have to check on that note later.

What? The people that responded aren't going to tell him that they're misinforming. How would he know they gave him an untrue answer.

So… What’s your point? You’re obviously saying something about Tiruin but I can’t for the life of me figure it out. Are you saying she’s a spy because she brought up that YOU didn’t explain how GriffDay wasn’t taking into account that spies would try to mess with the poll. You seem awfully intent on implicating people with small evidence kiddo.

The bolded part is what I'm talking about when I say she's trying too hard to appear townie.

Obvious overstatement is obvious.

You address someone else prodding the notion and not my own? Then jump to the horrible PoV of 'too hard to appear townie'?

My sheepy sheep. That's quite an accusation for one who doesn't even talk to the accused. I don't see a logical rebel doing that.

What? I did address it to you. Right here. Nerjin just didn't quote that part.

TWS's slip is total [CARP] in the way that he begins and ends addressing everyone else except the person prodding him about it--the very same person he's accusing.

How am I accusing Nerjin?

His logic is fallible--'trying to get a more experienced member with more experience on the team instead of him' directly goes against what he said earlier, one point being that he didn't expound on the point and instead gave another, different point.

That's not contradicting at all. In the first link I say Remuthra may have been trying to get Dariush onto the team instead of himself. In the second one I'm pointing out to Nerjin that I said "instead" instead of "with". Where do you see a contradiction?

From a total switch of 'O Remuthra may not be scum' to a definitive hypothetical statement.

"Definitive hypothetical"? It's hypothetical. It may not be true. And anyway, it's not like I'm saying this is definitely how it was. I'm giving ideas again.

Why else would Remuthra try to get off the mission if there were no other scum on it?

'Why else'?
> Conclusion and asking for other reasons.

Uh, yeah. I'm asking people if they have any other reasons, because if they don't, it would tend to back up my theory, right?

So far I'm thinking: Myself, Griffinpup, Griffionday and one of you, Tiruin, and Dariush. I'm not sure who yet. Probably not Dariush.

> Redeeming factors of the last member.

I'm understanding him more now. I'd like him to post now, though.

> Why yourself.

Really? Because I'm a rebel.

> Why Griffionday.

Already said.

> Why griffinpup.

Already said.

> Why not Lenglon.

Remuthra's actions, giving up, etc.

> Why not Nerjin.

Nerjin was the "you" in that sentence. (Sorry I'm being a little terse here, I'm trying to finish this post. But seriously, read back a few posts to see whether I gave reasons.)

Why am I taking so long to decide? I was about ready, then the whole communication business came out, and I'd like to see that resolved. Now I'm thinking about including Dariush and he's not around, and his next post will probably influence that decision quite a bit.

Oh, just realized I somehow missed this post.

Nerjin:

I'm going to smack you if you're talking about her forgetting how many spies there were. I mean it. I will look for you, find you, and smack you, then leave your house. That's not trying to appear too town y'know. That's forgetting how many people there are. If you condemn someone for something like that then I fear for the rest of us.

Thinking there might be four spies, even though in the last game there were 9 players and still 3 spies? Even though four spies would mean equal numbers of spies and rebels, which would be completely illogical?

I'm sorry I appear to have mis-spoke. Please say why you don't trust him. You mentioned him as a possibility [however remote] of being on your team so you NEED TO EXPLAIN! Sorry if I seem a bit rude about this point but you are the team LEADER. We need to see your thought process so that we can see if we can trust the team, not only because of who is on it, but who chose it.

You also mentioned me as a possible member. Why? What have I done to inspire confidence? What have I done to make your worried about sending me? Please explain your reads on the possible people you'd send.

I still feel like Dariush's D1 decisions were a bit strange. Also, he ignored this post and has been lurking recently.

My reasons for you were process of elimination again. I had three people, needed a fourth. The three people I mentioned for that fourth position weren't ideal. You I have a pretty null read on still.

Did I miss anyone?

Lenglon:

Sheep:Why Dariush over Nerjin? unless I've been misreading, you think Dariush is a spy, why would you include him?

I meant he'd be the last one of the three I'd put on the team. As in, I trust him least.


Sorry if I missed stuff. I'm tired, and I guess I'll just put out my pick now, since I feel like everyone(myself included) is getting a bit bored.

TheWetSheep
Griffinpup
Griffionday
Nerjin

[Tiruin]

Downvoting due to recent events.

...Meaning total irrationality on TWS' part.

What? I did address it to you. Right here. Nerjin just didn't quote that part.

No you didn't. You didn't even follow it up but throw out blank accusations without explaining it more.

You didn't even link it right.

How am I accusing Nerjin?

I was talking about me. >_> Seems good that you're jumping off that notion, huh.

That's not contradicting at all. In the first link I say Remuthra may have been trying to get Dariush onto the team instead of himself. In the second one I'm pointing out to Nerjin that I said "instead" instead of "with". Where do you see a contradiction?

Valid, I note the mistake on my part there. Mispoked.

I'm understanding him more now. I'd like him to post now, though.

So you subtly say Dariush instead of poking me.

Which you fail to address. Forever.

    > Why yourself.

Really? Because I'm a rebel.

Like we know that, smart guy. Failure to give any context seems best here. Especially if you're a spy.

    > Why Griffionday.

Already said.

    > Why griffinpup.

Already said.

Say it again, that's why I'm asking.

> Why not Lenglon.

Remuthra's actions, giving up, etc.

*AHEM* LENGLON.

Seeing that, you're basing everything due to her predecessor. Something...stupid, really. An etc is not a good tell.

   

Sheep:Why Dariush over Nerjin? unless I've been misreading, you think Dariush is a spy, why would you include him?

I meant he'd be the last one of the three I'd put on the team. As in, I trust him least.

...I don't even get what you're trying to say.

[Tiruin]

   

Sheep:Why Dariush over Nerjin? unless I've been misreading, you think Dariush is a spy, why would you include him?

I meant he'd be the last one of the three I'd put on the team. As in, I trust him least.

...I don't even get what you're trying to say.

EBWOP

So yet you still noted Dariush, and me, in your previous picks.

Then you go ahead and put Nerjin instead.

Why

[Lenglon]

I'm not sure how I'll vote, I really want to see more out of Nerjin and Dariush... particularly Dariush. my top two picks for a hypothetical scumteam are NQT, Tiruin, and Dariush, and NQT, Tiruin, and Nerjin. I'm not certain which one is the scummier of the two (and I don't have a good case on either right now), so I don't know if I should vote the team sheep is proposing up or down. other than that, I'm fine with the team as proposed, the problem is being wrong by even one person is enough to cause a failure. (mechanics question - it is first team to 3 wins, right? or is week 5 mandatory?)
...
right now I'm leaning towards an Upvote? I guess?

[Tiruin]

mechanics question - it is first team to 3 wins, right

If 3 sabotages = Spy win, no more extra weeks.
Rebel wins when all 5 missions are completed and >50% = successes.

right now I'm leaning towards an Upvote? I guess?

Uncertainty?

Why am I grouped with them?