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No

3 (23.1%)

Total Members Voted: 13

[MonkeyHead]

Ah, that explains all the pregnancies then.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Women in the Military: Preconceived Notion edition. This issue is a tinderbox and is full of misinformation, so it's best left alone. Men get raped. Women get raped. At the moment, rape of servicewomen is a major issue in every branch of the military. Coast guard especially has a terrible reputation. But, as stated before, if that's the reason to keep them out we're simply enforcing the projection of 'women are victims' mentality and ignoring underlying misogyny behind it considering men also get assaulted, usually at higher rates and in worse ways than women in the military. Believe it or not it's quite a way to break a male's spirit due to such preconceived notions, especially in such a homophobic area as the military.

I find it an issue that anyone in the military should worry about sexual harassment from their own, though, bottom line. Mandatory dishonorable discharge and court marshalls would go a long way. Court marshals would make a very good example of a pissant captain touching female soldiers, at that level they'd be pissed to even see such conduct [mostly because they don't have to deal with such things at the moment, top level military is basically a soundboard environment] in my opinion.

[Vector]

e: "Blunted accumbal dopamine response to cocaine following chronic social stress in female rats: exploring a link between depression and drug abuse" sure seems relevant to whether women can handle being on a submarine!

I'm going to follow that up with the note that studies on how women handle stress as they transition into adolescence has no relevance to being on a submarine, either.  Because that's "how does the experience of being sexualized affect young women as opposed to young men," (i.e. "how does being entered into the 'you're gonna get raped' portion of your life feel") not "how does stress affect women as opposed to men."  They aren't similar stressors, so of course there wouldn't be similar responses.

[pisskop]

I'm sorry but I don't have a stash o*f* article*s* ready to present.  That's a whole database there, though.  Search 'gender' and 'stress', 'stressors', etc.

[DJ]

And now for something completely different. I've had a hard time imagining a significant number of women on the frontlines, because not many women have the physical strength it takes to be a good infantry soldier (the gear is really, really heavy). But it just occurred to me that their smaller frames make women perfect for tank crews.

[Loud Whispers]

Let's see.

It’s most common in overweight, middle-aged men. Drinking alcohol and smoking makes it worse.

Why is this being called "female-related."

It's from an NHS study. I picked it because it was unbiased, it wasn't studying female or male health, it was studying national health and simply giving statistics.
Middle-aged men have to go through much tougher tests to prove they can keep up with able bodied younger men, this is not the case for women. Alcohol dependency is instantly grounds for ineligibility. The largest BMI you can have and join is 32, with medical examination to determine this doesn't affect your abilities.

Spoiler: From the National Health Service (click to show/hide)

2. Anaemia
One of the most common medical reasons for feeling constantly run down is iron deficiency anaemia. It affects around one in 20 men and post-menopausal women, but may be even more common in women who are still having periods.
Typically, you’ll feel you can’t be bothered to do anything, your muscles will feel heavy and you’ll get tired very quickly. Women with heavy periods and pregnant women are especially prone to anaemia.


3. Chronic fatigue syndrome

Chronic fatigue syndrome (also called myalgic encephalomyelitis or ME) is a severe and disabling tiredness that goes on for at least six months. There are usually other symptoms, such as a sore throat, muscle or joint pain and headache.
Anyone can get CFS, although it is more common in women than in men. It usually develops in the early 20s to mid-40s. Children can also be affected, usually between the ages of 13 and 15.

5. Underactive thyroid

An underactive thyroid gland means that you have too little thyroid hormone (thyroxine) in your body. This makes you feel tired. You’re also likely to put on weight and have aching muscles. It’s most common in women, and it happens more often as you get older.

These affect the ability to cope with fatigue and affect women more than they affect men, some of them even mainly affecting women more than men. Hence, female related. You are selectively ignoring information & it's hard to see what your argument is.

[penguinofhonor]

Men who would ignore their training and orders to do this should not be in the military.

Why? We don't exactly live in ancient Sparta where we berate soldiers for heroism. Just make sure women that fight front line fight in their own units, then the other soldiers won't ever have to feel like they need to protect any one particular unit in their squad.

If trying to be protective of women is causing causing the men to do stupid things and put their whole unit at risk, yes, it is something we should tell them not to do.

Sexual segregation would be, at best, a band-aid fix for this issue.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I did a couple searches and can't find any instances of this happening. Do you have any sources?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military
Wiki yo

I was mostly talking about the frivolous charges, such as a woman suing a man for walking in on her in the bathroom. Am I missing a section on the Wikipedia page talking about this stuff?

And now for something completely different. I've had a hard time imagining a significant number of women on the frontlines, because not many women have the physical strength it takes to be a good infantry soldier (the gear is really, really heavy). But it just occurred to me that their smaller frames make women perfect for tank crews.

I believe there's an anime about that.

[Vector]

You said it was a list of female-related fatigue disorders.  There are three disorders on that list that apparently affect women more, and one of the ones you've listed is for post-menopausal women (uh, usually women in their 50s would not be serving on a sub anyway).

I'll also note that the NHS recently did a study showing that the "women tend to have more anemia" thing is a myth--baseline iron rates are based on men, who gather more iron stores during adolescence due to their spike in testosterone.  Women, as a baseline, require less, and 90% (I think--it was a really egregious number) of those with actual physical signs of anemia that they tested had untreated gastrointestinal bleeds.  In men, anemia => colonoscopy, in women anemia => "y'all got menstrual problems," so women have higher incidences because their real problem is assumed not to exist and goes untreated.

I am not selectively ignoring information.  I am asking why you are trying to pass off a list of ailments that generally affect both men and women as a "female problem."

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Let's ban women from physical labor and all mental exercises if they're so incapable? Seems pretty odd to me that so many [mostly males] find it so easy to dismiss females as a soldier possibility, despite the training and screening they do go through. I know plenty of scrawny, weak-willed sniveling drama cases that happen to be male, I dunno, just seems odd to me.

[Willfor]

Wow, I am impressed with the amount of misogynistic "few women have the physical strength to be infantry" comments that have sprung up while I was out.

Biotruths, man, so biotruths.

 

We, as a society, condemn women who try to build up their physical strength because it interferes with conventional beauty standards. We marginalize and never televise the multitudes of women who have builds amply suited to the battlefield. We perpetuate the myth of the physically incapable woman, institutionalize it using the very myths we perpetuate as facts to justify it, and then turn around and blame it on the very women we are marginalizing.

No. I refuse to accept the argument that there are few women capable of infantry duty. It's an outright lie, and it's offensive to me as a feminist.

[DJ]

Seriously, you think there's no sexual dimorphism in humans? Are women also shorter on average because beauty standards don't let them grow tall?

[Loud Whispers]

I am asking why you are trying to pass off a list of ailments that generally affect both men and women as a "female problem."

Forget about my reasonings unless it would be absolutely necessary for the discussion.

First point is made.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Besides it being a generally unpleasant place where you can expect 5%-15% of first time bess students to completely flip out over upon deployment, it also supports a healthy amount of claustrophobia.

But women and men on a classified secret boat in undisclosed waters under the ocean in close contact and limited space and long watch duties and hot racking and . . .  well the subs cant airlift off every pregnant woman.  They have enough issue housing violators and stressed out headcases.

On a more practical level, issues such as supply and disposable of solid waste become a thing. Feminine products I suppose could be flushed with the rest of the waste, but . . .

Back when I was in there was talk about adding females to the boats, starting with the officers.  That didn't happen afaik.

EDIT:  Also the whole 16 hours days. thing.  20 often enough.  and that's before chow.

Argument.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

EDIT:  Also the whole 16 hours days. thing.  20 often enough.  and that's before chow.

Seriously?  Your argument is that women can't work long enough hours?

Point.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A whole lot of female related issues and fatigue that would really suck to have on a 16 hour shift inside a metal box under high pressure in heat and constant noise.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

More points + Arguments

Points points + Arguments

"Relate to" means to connect to or show connections. It does not mean:

I am asking why you are trying to pass off a list of ailments that generally affect both men and women as a "female problem."

"To show a singular connection without acknowledgement to all others."
Make no assumptions on who you speak to, the words spoken should be all that are judged.
Also where is this NHS study on Anaemia?
This is the only one I could find.
And as terrifying as redneck surgeons would be, they acknowledge:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Bleeding in the stomach and intestines is the most common cause of iron deficiency anaemia in men and in women who have been through the menopause (when a woman’s monthly periods stop).
Some of the causes of gastrointestinal bleeding are outlined below."
And on the same page:
"In women of reproductive age, periods are the most common cause of iron deficiency anaemia."

And over 10% of women suffer from heavy menstrual bleeding.
Though to answer a better question at why I'm bringing up the fact that we're sexually dimorphic species, it's because we're sexually dimorphic species.

Wow, I am impressed with the amount of misogynistic "few women have the physical strength to be infantry" comments that have sprung up while I was out.

Oh yes, of course, that is why we lower the expectations when it comes to female rates. Something something misogyny privilege and straw.

One point left unanswered [probably the only relevant one when it comes to female rates serving in submarine and other attack craft at sea]:

• What is the practicality of having to retrofit existing vessels with facilities equipped to deal with female hygiene, health and unplanned/planned pregnancies.

Let's ban women from physical labor and all mental exercises if they're so incapable? Seems pretty odd to me that so many [mostly males] find it so easy to dismiss females as a soldier possibility, despite the training and screening they do go through. I know plenty of scrawny, weak-willed sniveling drama cases that happen to be male, I dunno, just seems odd to me.

When mistakes can cost the lives of many due to physical inability yes. Banning? Then you've just gone and gotten rid of women's equal opportunity in the armed forces.
Make it so that equal opportunity means equal testing, all is well.
And while your commendable dismissal of weak-willed sniveling drama cases is wonderful, it truly is, but unless they comprise world armies that's hardly relevant. I suppose psychology and the army's poor treatment of it is something to discuss, but probably for a more related thread.

[Ogdibus]

Seriously, you think there's no sexual dimorphism in humans? Are women also shorter on average because beauty standards don't let them grow tall?

Reexamine what you just said, taking into account the way that creatures select their mates.

[Graknorke]

We, as a society, condemn women who try to build up their physical strength because it interferes with conventional beauty standards. We marginalize and never televise the multitudes of women who have builds amply suited to the battlefield. We perpetuate the myth of the physically incapable woman, institutionalize it using the very myths we perpetuate as facts to justify it, and then turn around and blame it on the very women we are marginalizing.

I doubt this paragraph.

[DJ]

Seriously, you think there's no sexual dimorphism in humans? Are women also shorter on average because beauty standards don't let them grow tall?

Reexamine what you just said, taking into account the way that creatures select their mates.

Well yeah, that's why we have sexual dimorphism, but that's neither here nor there. The question is whether it exists, not it's origin.