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Total Members Voted: 13

[DJ]

Yet women do expect privacy in a combat zone, and you end up with situations where infantrywoman x is suing infantryman y for coming across her while taking a dump and so on. You get a bunch of sexual harassment/sexual assault suits being filed, some of which are legitimate and some of which aren't, but all of which turn things into a circus.

Women who expect privacy under these conditions don't have the required mental fortitude to be a good soldier. Soldiering is a life of eschewing all sorts of comfort, privacy included, and if you can't handle that you need to rethink your career choice.

[Scoops Novel]

Yet women do expect privacy in a combat zone, and you end up with situations where infantrywoman x is suing infantryman y for coming across her while taking a dump and so on. You get a bunch of sexual harassment/sexual assault suits being filed, some of which are legitimate and some of which aren't, but all of which turn things into a circus.

Women who expect privacy under these conditions don't have the required mental fortitude to be a good soldier. Soldiering is a life of eschewing all sorts of comfort, privacy included, and if you can't handle that you need to rethink your career choice.

I think it's worth looking at the "some legitimate" line there. It would be worth comparing the instances in those where it does meet their demands and those that don't.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Well, rape pillage and burn is generally just assumed to be a fact of life in war on all sides, Gotdamnmiracle. I'd be interested in hearing about this hearts and minds angle, but bear in mind I'm taking that to mean survival, less dictatorial goverment and profit.

That is true, in an archaic sense, yes. But world war 1 was the first war where a lot of nations hadn't seen such habits fallen by the way side. In Afghanistan, I can honestly report that rape, from a foreign national is rare. Murder, not so much, but this is not limited to women.

Also may I point out that rape, has never been specific to women, in most cases when taking the town, the offenders would take anything they could get their hands on, be it child, woman, or man. It stems from the actual roots of the act, which are not of desire or passion but anger and power.

Also, nobody has answered my question, who the hell are the Iraqi militia and why are they relevant?

[Zangi]

*shrug*  Iraqi Militia are probably ghosts of the past?

@Rape of men, it may also serve as a way to crush the spirit of a man.  An act of 'ultimate' humiliation... in a patriarchal society. 
If you are not going to kill them, but don't want them to be of the mind to effectively organize and retaliate...
EDIT: Oh hey, it applies to women too, but in a different but same way.

[DJ]

Yet women do expect privacy in a combat zone, and you end up with situations where infantrywoman x is suing infantryman y for coming across her while taking a dump and so on. You get a bunch of sexual harassment/sexual assault suits being filed, some of which are legitimate and some of which aren't, but all of which turn things into a circus.

Women who expect privacy under these conditions don't have the required mental fortitude to be a good soldier. Soldiering is a life of eschewing all sorts of comfort, privacy included, and if you can't handle that you need to rethink your career choice.

I think it's worth looking at the "some legitimate" line there. It would be worth comparing the instances in those where it does meet their demands and those that don't.

If women who would make frivolous reports make it in, you need a better psychological evaluation process. This is essentially the same thing as worrying about ethnic minority soldiers filing complaints about racial discrimination.

[Scoops Novel]

Yet women do expect privacy in a combat zone, and you end up with situations where infantrywoman x is suing infantryman y for coming across her while taking a dump and so on. You get a bunch of sexual harassment/sexual assault suits being filed, some of which are legitimate and some of which aren't, but all of which turn things into a circus.

Women who expect privacy under these conditions don't have the required mental fortitude to be a good soldier. Soldiering is a life of eschewing all sorts of comfort, privacy included, and if you can't handle that you need to rethink your career choice.

I think it's worth looking at the "some legitimate" line there. It would be worth comparing the instances in those where it does meet their demands and those that don't.

If women who would make frivolous reports make it in, you need a better psychological evaluation process. This is essentially the same thing as worrying about ethnic minority soldiers filing complaints about racial discrimination.

Not my point, DJ. There's an evident limit to the effectiveness of such policy's when harassment is present, but I'd be curious to see if it's a mitigating factor.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

*shrug*  Iraqi Militia are probably ghosts of the past?

@Rape of men, it may also serve as a way to crush the spirit of a man.  An act of 'ultimate' humiliation... in a patriarchal society. 
If you are not going to kill them, but don't want them to be of the mind to effectively organize and retaliate...

I don't get the ghosts thing.

You act as if it is rational.

Really, the physical tests that a large portion of the military must endure is rather underwhelming.

My test, to remain in the Navy is at least; 44 push ups, 50 sit ups, under 12:30 1.5 mile.

Last test I did, 83 push ups, 110 sit ups (the max being 100) and an 8:53 1.5 mile. If you can't pass the test there is seriously some problems.

You see it's kind of a catch 22, you want more women in the military, some will pass the physical portion, some won't, but it should be simple enough for the average person willing to join to pass. If they make it more difficult then the number of women (and men) joining would be lower, suddenly everyone is worried that there is a very small number of women in the military (while not looking at the fact that a large number of men have also been turned away because of it), become alarmed.

When it comes right down to it though, only a very small percentage of people, especially in the dialed down Afghanistan, will ever see or even hear actual combat. A lot of people can say they have been on a deployment, but only a few can tell you about what rounds sound like popping over your head (it's different than you would think).

The military, is evolving with the world. No longer are the days of old when we would march battalions and full regiments on shores and through jungles. We now use squad sized elements, to move quickly and secure objectives with less resources. This means we need fewer people in dangerous positions.

I can tell you right now, a lot of the women in the military are either working behind desks in logistical positions, behind the wing, in a hospital, or on a ship. Not boots on the ground. Maybe we should have more "sexual harassment in the workplace videos" (I kid, but it's really more of a societal problem.)

And that's where I think most of our issues stem from. The military is really just a microcosm of American society, after all, we follow all of the same laws as you do in addition to our own. Much broader, yes, and I will agree, also much scarier.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

They do the same tests as men and pass, great. They can join. It's their choice to join, and I'm sure that most know that, should they get captured, there's a risk of rape.

And don't forget- torture can be just as, and possibly more, psychologically damaging than rape.
If you think 'Women shouldn't join the military because they might get raped!', then you worry far too much. You shouldn't let women out of the house, by that extension, as they might get raped then.

I would say more so. Read about what happened to John Mccaine.

[pisskop]

My opinion in a nutshell is that they should be able to perform most duties - if - if they can perform up to current standards.  I wouldn't want a subpar man doing a job he's unfit for, and I sure as hell don't want a subpar female doing it.  Equality and merit means only those who can perform get the job.

I also worry about rape and the other complexities like periods and whatnot, but mostly that's logistics.  Except when the idiots want to put women on a submarine.  bad, unless its all female, and even then  . . .

[Zangi]

*shrug*  Iraqi Militia are probably ghosts of the past?

@Rape of men, it may also serve as a way to crush the spirit of a man.  An act of 'ultimate' humiliation... in a patriarchal society. 
If you are not going to kill them, but don't want them to be of the mind to effectively organize and retaliate...

I don't get the ghosts thing.

You act as if it is rational.

Oh, I was making a quip, sorry for the misunderstanding.  But I mean the Iraqi Militia brought up are the equivalent of bogeymen, non-existent, but still scary to the uninformed.

At least I'm not saying it is ethical/good. 


And yea, I can understand your knowledge of the military shifting toward 'special forces' and away from the traditional large companies.  All the wars and military conflicts the US has been in for the last few decades has been... on a much smaller scale and against less traditional/capable entities.


Oh yea, I'm fine with equal opportunity and equal requirements for the same job/risks. 

And... honestly, our society has become so risk adverse... can't do X anymore cause it has a possibility of getting you killed/maimed.  Especially after it happens and... now you ain't supposed to do it too.
I guess there is insurance and all that.  They'll drop you like a brick and you are out of business when noone is willing to cover you.  Women and children are put on a higher pedestal of risk avoidance.

[Loud Whispers]

Adding my points along with what's already been said:

Army:

• Equal entry tests. No brainer.
• Women put into all-woman units if they see combat. IDF does it, it works well for them.

Airforce:

• Equal entry tests.
• Meh

Navy:

• Equal entry tests.
• Meh

[Scoops Novel]

Since derailing is all that's left to us, and how glorious it is, please go on about the risk adverseness of our society?

[anzki4]

I also worry about rape and the other complexities like periods and whatnot, but mostly that's logistics.  Except when the idiots want to put women on a submarine.  bad, unless its all female, and even then  . . .

Out of curiosity, what is so idiotic about women getting on submarines?

[Scoops Novel]

I also worry about rape and the other complexities like periods and whatnot, but mostly that's logistics.  Except when the idiots want to put women on a submarine.  bad, unless its all female, and even then  . . .

Out of curiosity, what is so idiotic about women getting on submarines?

+!. Supplys? Quirks of water pressure? ?

[pisskop]

Besides it being a generally unpleasant place where you can expect 5%-15% of first time bess students to completely flip out over upon deployment, it also supports a healthy amount of claustrophobia.

But women and men on a classified secret boat in undisclosed waters under the ocean in close contact and limited space and long watch duties and hot racking and . . .  well the subs cant airlift off every pregnant woman.  They have enough issue housing violators and stressed out headcases.

On a more practical level, issues such as supply and disposable of solid waste become a thing. Feminine products I suppose could be flushed with the rest of the waste, but . . .

Back when I was in there was talk about adding females to the boats, starting with the officers.  That didn't happen afaik.

EDIT:  Also the whole 16 hours days. thing.  20 often enough.  and that's before chow.