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[Vector]

Also, if an IC could tell me how I could go about improving how I put my arguments, that'd be wonderful.

In general, breathe first, inhale, exhale, and don't insult people unless you're trying to get them to do something.

Being just plain pissed off is not good for you, scum or town.  It looks like a defense mechanism.

One of your goals should be to dismantle all defense mechanisms other than cool, calm logic.  Attack mechanisms can be far more varied, however.  The line between attack and defense is also debatable.

[Jim Groovester]

Well to bad.  So you are on now but all you do is make crappy excuses as to why you are not on the rest of the time?

Quit giving people shit for not participating as much as you.

People have stuff to do that isn't arguing with assholes on the Internet all day long, and you haven't been the pinnacle of participation in this game either.

I'll look over the rest of the stuff later. Good to see that people are finally taking lylo seriously.

[kilakan]

Ya Jim it's not the inactivity, it's the constant excuses as to why.  I swear he spends half his time typing excuses as to why he doesn't type more.

[Jim Groovester]

You're a fucking broken record, which makes me think that you are trying to get someone lynched for your own gain.

Wanting someone lynched isn't scummy.

Or did someone hyjack your account and make you do it.

This is vitriol that adds nothing to your attack and is just you being a douche. Leave the crankiness to Vector.

Ya Jim it's not the inactivity, it's the constant excuses as to why.  I swear he spends half his time typing excuses as to why he doesn't type more.

I don't care. People have lives and you giving them shit for it is not cool.

Also, if an IC could tell me how I could go about improving how I put my arguments, that'd be wonderful.

If you're responding to a wall of text it's going to be messy no matter what you do. When presenting your own arguments, just find the strongest examples of what you're accusing a player of and a brief summary why. If your evidence is any good it should speak for itself. If it doesn't, try to be more convincing.

And what Vector said. Being calm all the time is a very useful skill for a new player to have. I should say, presenting yourself as calm all the time. You can be raging as much as you want as long as it doesn't come out into how you look.


In general, to everybody, you shouldn't get so worked up over arguing with another player that you lose sight of everyone else.

[Max White]

Oh ok cause there is definitly a question in there, looks like a random statement which oh look is explained here:

Sigh. LTR doesn't begin to cover this. A vote made during RVS does not equal a RV. A random vote, oddly enough is made randomly, as in, arbitrarily and with no reason. As I clearly provided a reason, what you said is rendered a lie. Only scum and doctors/cops have reason to lie, and I doubt you are a doctor.

So it wasn't a random vote, it was chosen and justified right? Breadbocks didn't sort out he's story before hand, and now he's scummy ass will pay for it.
He made a bandwagon vote an is now trying to cover up any way he can by swapping between saying it is and is not a random vote, and he still refuses to address this point.

While a fucking crappy explanation, what the hell does that make your above point about him not responding?

Nice post trimming there, bro. I like how you cut off the part where breadbocks contradicts himself. Your taking my words way out of context by removing important quotes from breadbocks. Scum thing to do. If breadbocks answers a question in two ways, then he has hardly answered at all.

Oh ok then, so you contradicting yourself and yet again not actually asking any real questions or pushing for good evidence is you questioning people the entire time eh?

Engrish, broken! Translation request.

and then without actually convincing people you immediately move on to this:

Where to start on this...
Firstly, no, I did not 'immediately move on', there were other points you didn't even try to address. And hell, even when I did move on I noticed something new and added it in. I haven't really 'moved on' at all, just finished summarising my points.
But that's small fries. You claimed that 'and then without actually convincing people', but what gives you the right to speak for everybody? Hell, think seems to agree with me, so that is at least one person, and BD said that

Hm? Oh I suppose I have been quiet. Breadbocks is acting scummy, but im going to go with my second scumpick right now.

So it looks like everybody agrees with me to some level except you and Breadbocks. Not only did you try to claim the voice of the group, but very much falsely. Some what scummy of you.

Ah yes, because the cop isn't dead, and if there was a doctor he totally hasn't failed miserably at being a bloody doctor.  Which leads me to be to think that you purposely overlook things so you can make someone seem scummier then they are.  Of course at the time it was bad, but now?  Well why the hell didn't you bring it up earlier.

Dude, the chances of the doc making a protect are fairly low when they are playing hit and miss. The doc was first put into mafia so that the cop could claim and still be safe, unless the mafia got lucky. It isn't exactly reasonable to expect them to have saved people after only two NKs.
Although now that things are a little might tight, the chances of them making a save increase, and they become useful enough that the mafia would want them dead more than ever. Scum's gonna role hunt when they thing they have a chance, no matter how much you undermine the townie roles.
And I didn't bring it up earlier because I didn't notice earlier. Scum can be subtle, not my fault if I don't see everything first time over, but it is my fault if I don't bother to read over it again to pick up anything I missed.

Oh ok then you were halfway done, oh look yesterday.  Give me some fucking evidence or ask a fucking relevant question instead of just repeating the lines "He doesn't answer me whaaaa"  and "Post your second picks NAOW"  You're a fucking broken record, which makes me think that you are trying to get someone lynched for your own gain.

...
You wanted me to go back over my reasons. If I sound like a broken record it is because you can't seem to understand that arguments carry over to the next day and I'm trying to accommodate you. Also, what is wrong with asking for second picks in lylo? I only asked once even, not like a 'broken record' like you seem to think. Having people go over their second picks will at very least ensure everybody is looking at more than one person, and is least likely to tunnel.


Everybody: Now, I would like to draw attention to something rather big that you might have missed. Look at my case on Breadbocks, then look at Kilikans case on me. Notice the biggest difference between them?
My evidence was from the entire game, both d1 and d2, with nothing from today because Breadbocks had done very little at that point.
Kilikans evidence was taken all from a single post, after he voted.
Townies look for scum, form a case, then vote and present, but Kilakan voted and then tried to justify it. He didn't feel obliged to share any evidence from before he voted, just try and pull together an argument afterwards when he was pressed for one.
As such, Kilikan, you have given yourself away.

[Max White]

First, they aren't my commitments. It's all shit my parents dump on me 24/7 because they're too lazy. I was lucky to find an hour of constant free time yesterday, which I had to spend relaxing before I blew up.

I hope they stitched you back together well. 

Second, there aren't any lies for you to "rip to shreads", because I'm not lying. 

In a game where we can't realy take each other on our words, saying your not lying doesn't mean much.

Also, no. Connecting people until after the fact is only a scum trick.

Yea, webba addressed that. My mistake, I figured a connection would make for a strong case, but guess not.

Not answering questions: In fact, I only missed one, and I replied when I was told I missed it. Also, you decided to put my 3 charater typo in this section for some reason. I missed the n key, the ' key, and the t key, and I get people riding my back for it.

No realy, I'm still not 100% sure if your vote on Ultra was a random vote or not. I think I have put together that it was not a random vote, and then you didn't feel it was required that you push from there, right? Any given answer has just been to vague to be sure.

Asking pointless questions: The first was rhetorical,  when I posted my reasons for voting you above, and the second was an effective question that just bolstered my case.

...
Yea, when a question s clearly loaded, it was rhetorical. I see.

Being incredibly defensive: A, I did answer, you just chose to ignore it, and B, you're making bullshit connections between you asking me a question, and me voting you based on evidence I'd gathered so far.

You showed no interest in me until I started to press you. Maybe if you had tried to make some of a case on me before I started on you, this would have more merit.

Buddying up to powerful forces: Haha, no. Me saying "This makes me think Vector isn't scum" is not buddying. I gave evidence, however shakey, rather than just go along with what she said. What Bdthemag just did is buddying. He ignored me even though I was his top scumpick.

Trying to redirect attention at Bd, noted.

Lurking: You call it lurking, I call it waiting for UV to explain himself. HE never did.

He seemed to respond to anything I asked him. If you wanted explanations, perhaps you should have started with questions?

Rolefishing: No, see, that isn't how rolefishing works. Rolefishing is when you try to get someone to roleclaim, or give away their role. I was stating every single possibility in a BM game for reasons to lie. A cop would lie, so he doesn't get NK'd. The cop was dead. Scum would lie, so they don't get lynched. A doctor would lie so he doesn't get NK'd. I was saying I wouldn't believe you were doctor, and you lied, therefore you are scum.

But this had nothing to do with the role of the doc, you just dragged it in claiming it was justification for lying. No, it is notjustification for any lies, just covering up your role. By trying to assert that I was lying and this was ok only if I was the doc, you were fishing for me to say I was the doc as justification for pressing.

Now, I've been in this position before. Me and Max are both digging away at eachother, while the scum is sitting in the background snickering at how well they engineered this situation. But basically, what happened was  me and Heliman were convinced the other was scum, one of the scum said "if you really think breadbocks is scum, I'll give you the hammer" and Heliman took the deal. I used my revenge kill on Heliman, town lost. I was really pissed at myself. [Note: It might not have been Heliman, but someone else. I'm just fairly certain it was Heliman.]
Unvote Max.

This can be read two ways, the first is 'I won't tunnel you and keep scum hunting, if you don't tunnel me and keep scum hunting' and is a very townie was of thinking, the other is 'I'll unvote you if you unvote me' and is extremely scummy. Trying to guess between them would just come down to WIFOM, but the underlying message is the truth, so reguardless of intention that I'm not going to guess at, this is good advice.

[Max White]

Vote UltraValican[/color]
so I'd like to ask
UltraValican-Why would you vote me, what are your reasons?

Here's the vote, just so we have some context

[/color]kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

Defencive much? Ultra pushed for a reaction to Vector's accusations, and Kilakan retaliates with a vote back that sat on the bandwagon untill Ultra was lynched.
From then on he did little to push Ultra, or did less of anything else. That was he's day 1.

MaxWhite-How would you avoid detection as a Scum, if you plan on taking out the lurkers at night?

Have an axe to grind. Try to get a reason to begrudge a player, then focus everything you have at them, even if nobody else is going to vote them. That way you have a reason to not vote for anybody else, including your mafia friends.

Care to guess what he did d2? Just that. He sunk an axe into Bd and didn't look at anybody else. He even demanded I prove he was a townie.

Hey what gives you the idea he's town, give me a few examples of where he proves himself.

My reply, for context

How about because he hasn't done anything that scummy. I mean really, when I thought it was about powder I was just pointing out that it looked scumy without suspecting you at all, but your asking me to prove bd is townie? Hell no, prove to me he is scum! I think he is townie, so show me otherwise if you want a lynch, because calling everybody who doesn't see the world the same way as you scum is a rather scummy act. Fear tactics are scum moves.

And he's reply

Perfectly valid answers, as for the fear tactic?  No I use it more as a pressure/aggressive move to judge a players reactions under stress.  Not always is the fear tactic I sometimes use directed to the person I'm talking to, it makes a useful lure for potential bandwagoners too.

I call bullshit. Your not 'judge a players reactions under stress', your covering up after I call you out on something scummy.

onto day 3, and I have already covered most of it.

Holy hell of a pointless question bro.

MaxWhiteScared to reexplain yourself?  I'd like you to bring up as many points for yourself as to why you are not scum.

Yea, it was a pointless question, put only there with the hope that it would get a smile. Were playing a game, I would like to think we can laugh at a joke or two. My vote was on Breadbocks the prior day, that was just putting it back on after night time... But somehow you feel it is an issue? Why?

Afraid to explain myself? Yea, terrified, because if I have to explain myself again I will sound like a broken record.

[Think0028]

kilakan: I did answer Bd's question: I'm not bandwagoning breadbocks, I've suspected him for a while now, and I don't have evidence I haven't presented. And you call my explanation of breadbock's scuminess:
1) A failure to convince anyone else
2) Bought by everyone else
3) Lacking a 'decent example'
Not only is this contradictory (I convinced no one but everyone accepted it?), it's extremely incomplete. Any care to show how it's not a decent argument?
You also accuse me of 'asking breadbocks 2 questions and Bd one over the course of two days'. Presuming you're referring to real life days and not mafia days, why yes, I used the time I had for posting to grill my main suspect. And I suppose if you reduce each of my posts to one question, then yes, I did ask 'only 2' questions.

How about you? Your first post this day was voting Max with 'tell me why you aren't scum', instead of presenting actual evidence. Considering that in your previous post Max wasn't in your scumlist at all, I'd like to know what changed your mind.

Also, no, I'm not going to change how I post for you. I hate reading long walls of text, and I don't want to force anyone else to read them.

breadbocks: Hrm. Looking over the posts with 'contradictory story', it's obvious in retrospect that you made a typo. One more question. Why did you leave the out when you were questioning Max about his supposed lies of him being a doctor?

[TolyK]

I'm actually surprised that nobody tried to vote for me or TolyK :V

Same. 

Oh ok then, so you contradicting yourself and yet again not actually asking any real questions or pushing for good evidence is you questioning people the entire time eh?

Engrish, broken! Translation request.

Oh, okay then, so you're contradicting yourself. Are the acts of not asking any real questions and pushing for good evidence really questioning people the entire time? Eh?

 

[Max White]

I'm actually surprised that nobody tried to vote for me or TolyK :V

Same. 

It would strategically unwise to lynch either of you today, as you are both clearly so incompetent to preform basic scum duty, that there is a good chance that tonight you will forget to send in the nk. Lynch you tomorrow. 

Oh ok then, so you contradicting yourself and yet again not actually asking any real questions or pushing for good evidence is you questioning people the entire time eh?

Engrish, broken! Translation request.

Oh, okay then, so you're contradicting yourself. Are the acts of not asking any real questions and pushing for good evidence really questioning people the entire time? Eh?

 

Thank you.
Add to the kilikan case
Asking loaded questions
Question implies that I haven't been asking good questions and pushing well, so their is a connotation that I am mafia from the start, and a scum move. He didn't make a real reply, just implied something else. I have been asking good questions and pushing kilikan, regardless of how you try to mislead others.
Also interesting to note that he is trying to chainsaw the integrity of my argument against breadbocks, while attacking breadbocks himself. Makes me wonder if he realy thinks bread is scum and he is scumhunting, or if he is trying a distancing act.


Mods: Time before day ends? Things are starting to warm up, don't want a sudden halt now.

[Darvi]

27h 10 m.

[Jim Groovester]

Prod Bdthemag. It's lylo and he's only posted once. In other words, complete bullshit.

[Darvi]

Yeah, he just admitted in another thread that he doesn't bother to check all his games.

He totally deserved that domination.

[Bdthemag]

I guess what I meant to say is that im the biggest fucking procrastinator you'll ever meet.

Unvote, Vote Kilikan your generally asking bullshit questions, and jumping to conclusions really fast. Care to give us actual good reasons why you think someones scum besides "Hurr durr because he got mad at me.".

[breadbocks]

Kilakan, why so silent? You have plenty to answer for. I want to see a rebuttal to every point raised by Max, Think, and I.

Rolefishing: No, see, that isn't how rolefishing works. Rolefishing is when you try to get someone to roleclaim, or give away their role. I was stating every single possibility in a BM game for reasons to lie. A cop would lie, so he doesn't get NK'd. The cop was dead. Scum would lie, so they don't get lynched. A doctor would lie so he doesn't get NK'd. I was saying I wouldn't believe you were doctor, and you lied, therefore you are scum.

But this had nothing to do with the role of the doc, you just dragged it in claiming it was justification for lying. No, it is notjustification for any lies, just covering up your role. By trying to assert that I was lying and this was ok only if I was the doc, you were fishing for me to say I was the doc as justification for pressing.

Now, I've been in this position before. Me and Max are both digging away at eachother, while the scum is sitting in the background snickering at how well they engineered this situation. But basically, what happened was  me and Heliman were convinced the other was scum, one of the scum said "if you really think breadbocks is scum, I'll give you the hammer" and Heliman took the deal. I used my revenge kill on Heliman, town lost. I was really pissed at myself. [Note: It might not have been Heliman, but someone else. I'm just fairly certain it was Heliman.]
Unvote Max.

This can be read two ways, the first is 'I won't tunnel you and keep scum hunting, if you don't tunnel me and keep scum hunting' and is a very townie was of thinking, the other is 'I'll unvote you if you unvote me' and is extremely scummy. Trying to guess between them would just come down to WIFOM, but the underlying message is the truth, so reguardless of intention that I'm not going to guess at, this is good advice.

First, covering up your role *is* lying. It might not be harmful to town lying, but it's still lying.

Second, it's a "We've both been busting our asses scumhunting eachother, which is the best and one of the only reliable way to identify who is pro-town. Since we're both town, no point attacking eachother till scum wins."

breadbocks: Hrm. Looking over the posts with 'contradictory story', it's obvious in retrospect that you made a typo. One more question. Why did you leave the out when you were questioning Max about his supposed lies of him being a doctor?

If you mean my choice of the article 'a' instead of 'the', it was because every doctor has had a reason to lie, and will continue to have a reason to lie. It is understood there can only be one doctor in this game, or else I would have specified. 'A' was also the proper form to use, since earlier in the post I referred to doctors/cops plural, I believe. Anyways, it's semantics that doesn't matter.