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[Nadaka]

You are right. There are options.
Suicide. Murder or close enough to it. The intervention of a concerned stranger.

You speak of options because you can conceive of the concept. If you are raised the way they are, and I was, you can not even form the thought that your faith is wrong. It would be blasphemy.

I'm sorry, but I have to point this out.

You got out.  According to all the rigamoral in this thread, nobody will ever be able to do it but you just proved that you can.

And my father attempt to murder someone. Even after that, with him and his religion mostly out of the picture it took years of ceaseless effort to really get out and free my mind of all the bullshit that was pounded into me.

For "normal" victims of abuse, the options and choices are very hard. But for the most part, at least some of their family, church and friends will help. And the only mental blocks they have to overcome are love, fear, self worth and codependency. For someone brainwashed like that from birth and things are exponentially harder. Your friends tell you to endure and have faith as it is your duty. Your family will tell you to be a better son/daughter/wife. Your church will kindly suggest that he limit the beatings to once a week. You have to overcome everything any other victim does plus absolute faith that your abuser is right, that you must deserve punishment for your sinful thoughts of wanting to be free, and that getting away means damnation and is worse than death itself.

You can't dismiss it all by saying its so rare it doesn't matter or by blaming the victims by saying that it is their choice and that they have options. And that is exactly what you have done, and I will not abide that.

[Leafsnail]

Oh hey, PZ Myers.  His stuff's usually good.

...Yup, Dawkins seems to fundamentally not understand why it was harrassment.  Argh.

[Phmcw]

Damn, why do I always find myself disagreeing with you on such issues?
Dawkin was a dick, maybe, but he's right that this affair is awfully overblown.
Seriously, one creep? Who is not aggressive ? That hit on her.

Ok that's not being misogynistic, that's being and idiot and making a fool of himself.
He's trying clumsily to hit on her, on her way back in the elevator, with the pick up line that "he find her fascinating" and "invite her in his room for a coffee and to talk some more".
Either he is drunk, either he's socially awkward, but to take that encounter, and to use it as an example of misogynistic behavior is like .... like .... damn it it's already a parody in itself.

If she think THAT is a sign of misogyny in the atheistic community, I take it she had never visited a nightclub.

[Vector]

You seem to not understand that hitting on someone in a closed elevator at 4 AM in the morning, directly after having requested that such encounters stop, constitutes harassment.  She already told him no.  This is him following her into a closed space to make sure that she really meant no.

[Phmcw]

I agree, and he's a creep, certainly.

But what the hell does it say about feminism is the atheist community?
OMG there is a rather minor creep who imagine that when someone say no to everyone that doesn't include himself?

If the point she's making is that among people that attend atheist convention there is some who don't know how to behave around women, she is making the most trivial statement ever.
Is she aware of in which state is women condition, generally speaking?
You're likely to be accosted more rudely than that in the street.

[The Maestro]

My friend tells me to read this thread on some forum I've never heard of, and I'm bored so I'm going to play the opposition.

And my father attempt to murder someone. Even after that, with him and his religion mostly out of the picture it took years of ceaseless effort to really get out and free my mind of all the bullshit that was pounded into me.

For "normal" victims of abuse, the options and choices are very hard. But for the most part, at least some of their family, church and friends will help. And the only mental blocks they have to overcome are love, fear, self worth and codependency. For someone brainwashed like that from birth and things are exponentially harder. Your friends tell you to endure and have faith as it is your duty. Your family will tell you to be a better son/daughter/wife. Your church will kindly suggest that he limit the beatings to once a week. You have to overcome everything any other victim does plus absolute faith that your abuser is right, that you must deserve punishment for your sinful thoughts of wanting to be free, and that getting away means damnation and is worse than death itself.

You can't dismiss it all by saying its so rare it doesn't matter or by blaming the victims by saying that it is their choice and that they have options. And that is exactly what you have done, and I will not abide that.

Pray tell, how would you prevent it?

[Glowcat]

I see ElevatorGate has made its way to Bay12

A suggestion to not creep out women and be (perhaps unknowingly) threatening immediately made Rebecca into some kind of unreasonable misandrist... somehow. There's been a lot of good rebuttals to the boneheaded responses such as Greta Christina's.

[ChairmanPoo]

IMO:

If the event was on the lines of psychotic fan stalking this woman (whoever she is) into an elevator after having been already told off, ok, he's a creep. It doesn't even need an elevator involved

If the event was on the lines of, in the middle of a normal conversation with this guy up to that point, him dropping a comment about having some coffee, then she's the crazy one, IMO


Since I don't know the actual circumstances, that's the best I can come up with.

I agree Dawkin's comments were of an uncalled-for crudeness, though. I've never liked that guy too much, tbh, but I find it appaling that someone who is purportedly an intellectual would be so crass, so casually, in such a public way

[Willfor]

My friend tells me to read this thread on some forum I've never heard of, and I'm bored so I'm going to play the opposition.

As someone with a vested interest in not seeing the "opposition" brought down by a debater who may only be in it for the lulz, I'm going to give you the forewarning that "I was only messing with you" is something that is not tolerated in this thread. I'm not saying you have bad intentions, I'm just saying that you generally have to remain in good faith if you want to be taken seriously in debates here. Just don't get yourself knee-deep in it, and then "lolololol" off into the sunset, that's all.

That said, welcome to the forum.

[Andir]

You can't dismiss it all by saying its so rare it doesn't matter or by blaming the victims by saying that it is their choice and that they have options. And that is exactly what you have done, and I will not abide that.

So I present the question that I've been alluding to all along.  Is your solution to go all Hitler on these religious people and lock them in concentration camps until they change their way... because they don't follow your way of life?  This is the impression I get from all this ranting.  You want change and you want it to happen so fast that people change their ways (to match yours) overnight.  Hopefully you've seen historically that can never happen.  You cement some people's opinions on their ideas (like the KKK) and you push away others (Dawkins.) (edit... I seem to be having issues with the edit field right now... sorry about the content change...)

[Vector]

My friend tells me to read this thread on some forum I've never heard of, and I'm bored so I'm going to play the opposition.

. . . Seriously?  Just so you know, you pretty much made my life.

Uh, or my day, at least.  But please, thank your friend for me, and welcome to the thread.


I'll ask you to feel free to ask the difficult questions (out of boredom or not), but arguing something you don't believe just to have an argument is a tad on the annoying side.  We've already got loads of people on the other side to fight against, and limited energy.

For now, though, I'll assume that you're doing the former =)

If the event was on the lines of psychotic fan stalking this woman (whoever she is) into an elevator after having been already told off, ok, he's a creep. It doesn't even need an elevator involved

Yeah, she'd just made a speech about asking people not to do this sort of crap at atheist conferences because it made her and other women uncomfortable.  Then he followed her into the elevator (could be either normal or creepy--might just need to take the elevator) and asked her to have coffee with him (puts it in the definitely creepy category, given the previous context, which says something about his intentions for following her).

As someone with a vested interest in not seeing the "opposition" brought down by a debater who may only be in it for the lulz, I'm going to give you the forewarning that "I was only messing with you" is something that is not tolerated in this thread. I'm not saying you have bad intentions, I'm just saying that you generally have to remain in good faith if you want to be taken seriously in debates here. Just don't get yourself knee-deep in it, and then "lolololol" off into the sunset, that's all.

That said, welcome to the forum.

Yeah, you put this much better than I did.  Thanks for your clarity.

So I present the question that I've been alluding to all along.  Is your solution to go all Hitler on these religious people and lock them in concentration camps until they change their way... because they don't follow your way of life?  This is the impression I get from all this ranting.  You want change and you want it to happen so fast that people change their ways (to match yours) overnight.  Hopefully you've seen historically that can never happen.  You cement some people's opinions on their ideas (like the KKK) and you push away others that may side with you if you tihnk about it rationally (Dawkins.)

As Nadaka keeps saying, I think his goal is awareness.  A societal attitude of intolerance, not necessarily on the governmental level, much like the refusal to do other nasty things within the law.

[Leafsnail]

Pray tell, how would you prevent it?

Well Mr Sockpuppet somebody's friend, possibilities already suggested in this thread include ensuring that people do have a way out of abusive marriages and education in schools that helps prevent children from being railroaded into said marriages.

So I present the question that I've been alluding to all along.  Is your solution to go all Hitler on these religious people and lock them in concentration camps until they change their way... because they don't follow your way of life?

This is strawmanning (and reducio ad Hitlerum, of course) and you know it.  The part that's bad about the solution you're suggesting is the concentration camps, which is the part that you added to the viewpoint he expressed.  You can make any viewpoint look bad if you add concentration camps to it ("So, you want us to be more calm and tolerent?  Do you want to put all angry and intolerent people in gas chambers?").

You want change and you want it to happen so fast that people change their ways (to match yours) overnight.  Hopefully you've seen historically that can never happen.  You cement some people's opinions on their ideas (like the KKK) and you push away others that may side with you if you tihnk about it rationally (Dawkins.)

He wants us to actually try to help people in horribly abusive religious sects.  Not just sweep the problem under the rug under the vague assumption that one day we will reach the promised land where these sects will vanish.

[Andir]

As Nadaka keeps saying, I think his goal is awareness.  A societal attitude of intolerance, not necessarily on the governmental level, much like the refusal to do other nasty things within the law.

Ok, we are aware... why do they keep arguing points?

[Angle]

I agree, and he's a creep, certainly.

But what the hell does it say about feminism is the atheist community?
OMG there is a rather minor creep who imagine that when someone say no to everyone that include himself?

If the point she's making is that among people that attend atheist convention there is some who don't know how to behave around women, she is making the most trivial statement ever.
Is she aware of in which state is women condition, generally speaking?
You're likely to be accosted more rudely than that in the street.

Oh not this again. >.< Yes the dude was an idiot. That's all she accused him of. Everyone else, for some reason, seems determined to obsess over it. look at her video. most of it is dedicated to talking about where she's been and what she's done. She only talks about that for a very brief moment. like, a minute. from an 8 minute video. she did not accuse anyone of blatant sexism, she merely said it made her uncomfortable. Good grief. 

fakeedit - Ninjas! 7 of them!

[Andir]

So I present the question that I've been alluding to all along.  Is your solution to go all Hitler on these religious people and lock them in concentration camps until they change their way... because they don't follow your way of life?

This is strawmanning (and reducio ad Hitlerum, of course) and you know it.  The part that's bad about the solution you're suggesting is the concentration camps, which is the part that you added to the viewpoint he expressed.  You can make any viewpoint look bad if you add concentration camps to it ("So, you want us to be more calm and tolerent?  Do you want to put all angry and intolerent people in gas chambers?").

No, I just want to know why they keep shoving it in my face.  If their whole purpose is awareness... they are done with their argument.  Continuing to argue that I'm not seeing something that exists tells me that they want ME to do something about it and I'm not going to.  Period.  I'm not joining in your campaign.

Edit:  Right now, I feel as though someone is trying to "rape" me into their ideals.