Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[RedKing]

I don't doubt that some people might choose to live like that.  On the other hand, since the system they're in fundamentally doesn't give them a choice we won't know if the people involved in it actually have.

I'm going to side on the optimistic edge and think that they do in fact have a choice.  There might be people so entrenched that getting out will cost them their lives, but pretty much anywhere I've been in the US there is a way out.

The question is, do those people know there is a way out, and do they have the wherewithal to throw everything they know away and jump into something totally unknown to do it?

There are battered women's shelters all over the country, domestic abuse counseling services all over the country, and yet there are thousands upon thousands of women who stay with abusive husbands/boyfriends/fathers rather than use those services.

[Leafsnail]

Especially if your husband effectively has the "right" to rape you and tell you exactly what to say.  I don't think the fact that one can beat someone to the point where they're too scared to escape gives one the right to dominate them.

[Nadaka]

Yea. Look at it this way:

It is what you are made to be, it is the only thing you have ever known, you know that everyone else is a sinner and damned, you know that leaving is a sin and you will be damned, you know that speaking out is a sin and you will be damned, every support structure you have will try to keep you in your place. Even if you overcome all of that, your family, church, friends, everyone you know will turn their backs on you and cast you out without support, you will be completely alone and at the mercy of the sinful heathens.

That is what you have to overcome in order to get to the point that you can make a real choice. That doesn't even count the intimidation and fear that comes from the abuse that is encouraged as "discipline".

[Andir]

Again, the options are out there... I don't know what you intend to do besides ship them all off to concentration camps for re-education.  One of the fundamental principles of this country is freedom of religious choice.  If they choose to leave that environment, by all means, support their struggle.  I'm just telling you, without witch hunts or some type of organized posse I don't know what you expect to happen besides one hell of a lash back from the religious freedom fundamentalists.

[Nadaka]

Again, the options are out there... I don't know what you intend to do besides ship them all off to concentration camps for re-education.  One of the fundamental principles of this country is freedom of religious choice.  If they choose to leave that environment, by all means, support their struggle.  I'm just telling you, without witch hunts or some type of organized posse I don't know what you expect to happen besides one hell of a lash back from the religious freedom fundamentalists.

You are right. There are options.
Suicide. Murder or close enough to it. The intervention of a concerned stranger.

You speak of options because you can conceive of the concept. If you are raised the way they are, and I was, you can not even form the thought that your faith is wrong. It would be blasphemy.

 If more people know about this, there would be a lot more concerned strangers. That is what I intend to do about this.

You might want to read back in this thread. This is not the first time I have hit the topic of religion. And it counters what you seem to think I am saying.

[Willfor]

My mom is a minister with heavily pentecostal roots (theologically), she wears her hair short, she wears pants, she drives on her own, works outside the house, used contraception (I am, in fact, an accident), and has a degree from a bible school. Apparently she does not exist.

[Nadaka]

My mom is a minister with heavily pentecostal roots (theologically), she wears her hair short, she wears pants, she drives on her own, works outside the house, used contraception (I am, in fact, an accident), and has a degree from a bible school. Apparently she does not exist.

Not at all. There is no central authority that dictates what every church believes. You said your mothers church has pentecostal roots? Meaning it is an offshoot? How similar would you say her church is to other pentecostal churches? The few pentecostal churches I knew did treat women like that.

[Willfor]

My mom is a minister with heavily pentecostal roots (theologically), she wears her hair short, she wears pants, she drives on her own, works outside the house, used contraception (I am, in fact, an accident), and has a degree from a bible school. Apparently she does not exist.

Not at all. There is no central authority that dictates what every church believes. You said your mothers church has pentecostal roots? Meaning it is an offshoot? How similar would you say her church is to other pentecostal churches? The few pentecostal churches I knew did treat women like that.

It's an offshoot, yes, and I have also known pentecostal churches that had rules like that. However, I've also seen pentecostal churches under the PAOC (Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada) that weren't as stringent.

Maybe it's just a Canada thing. Though, according to my family, the people who started the pentecostal movement in my area were two women who came up from Georgia when my Grandfather was still pretty young.

[Nadaka]

The ones I had experience with were in New York and Mississippi, never met any from Canada. So, dunno.

That is good news though.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Trust me Wilfor, from what I've seen of the American Pentecostals, your mother would be declared a heretical sinner and shunned by the community at the least. It's different down here.

[SalmonGod]

This is exactly why brainwashing of children makes me so angry.  I've opened up on the religion issue a lot since I was a teenager (when I went through a staunch anti-religious phase), to the point that I find myself defending religious rights a lot more often than I criticize them.

But the way children's minds are thrown in cages while still developing, and the permanency of impact that has on the way a person is capable of thinking... it's truly horrifying to me.  I would actually go so far as to say that there should be legal restrictions on religious indoctrination of children, or perhaps it could be combated with mandatory multicultural religious education. 

Adults can choose to be a part of whatever culture they please.  A women who was raised in an intellectually healthy fashion can choose to put herself in an abusive situation, and that is her choice, so long as she understands that she has ways out.  But kids desperately need to be shown that there is a vast world apart from the culture and beliefs their parents raise them in.

[Andir]

You are right. There are options.
Suicide. Murder or close enough to it. The intervention of a concerned stranger.

You speak of options because you can conceive of the concept. If you are raised the way they are, and I was, you can not even form the thought that your faith is wrong. It would be blasphemy.

I'm sorry, but I have to point this out.

You got out.  According to all the rigamoral in this thread, nobody will ever be able to do it but you just proved that you can.

[Truean]

The republicans raised the debt ceiling 7 times under Bush. Why is the sky falling now? Just raise it again. No one batted an eye at the trillions we've spent on war, but SSI and food stamps are "too expensive...." [headdesk]

[Andir]

The republicans raised the debt ceiling 7 times under Bush. Why is the sky falling now? Just raise it again. No one batted an eye at the trillions we've spent on war, but SSI and food stamps are "too expensive...." [headdesk]

I'm not supporting the Republicans, but at some point in time you have to say, "Stop!"  Using the excuse that the previous person smashed the windows in the police car means you can too is rather obtuse.

[Vector]

A women talks about her irritation at being constantly propositioned at conferences for atheism; immediately afterwards, a dude propositions her; there is a little kerfluffle

The one and only Richard Dawkins commenting on such; it's been confirmed that it's really him.

Also Richard Dawkins.

Richard Dawkins continues to be an asshole.

Moderator confirms it's Richard Dawkins and lays down some smackdowns; warning for rape "joke" at the very end, in image form

Letters to Richard Dawkins.

*sigh*

An essay on not being Schrodinger's Rapist.