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[Vector]

There are some rules and guidelines for this thread.  They will be subject to change.  If they change, I will post in-thread.  Violators will be warned or reported depending on severity.

The rules may seem somewhat absurd, but this sort of thread is often a hot bed for flame wars and all sorts of bullshit.

Let's try to keep this thread bullshit-free on our parts.  Enough shit will be flying already.


0.  Attack arguments, not people.  Period.

0.5a Be as logical, reasonable, and precise as you can be.  This makes it easier to avoid arguments.

0.5b Offering a direct argument is superior to a passive-aggressive one.  Snideness and sarcasm are fine; just use your judgment.

1.  Think before you post.

2.  Do not troll.  Victim-blaming and derailment tactics will not be tolerated.  Shit-posting will not be tolerated, either.

3.  Do not treat people as though they do not exist, or as though they are inhuman or subhuman.  There will be no "othering" here.

4.  I will try not to police language too much, but use common sense.  If your common sense is subpar in this direction, you will be informed.

-> Guideline: this includes appropriation of words surrounding sexual assault and violence in general, as well as illnesses and hateful slurs, to make a point as a metaphor.  I will be gentle about this in most cases other than those concerning rape.

5.  Evolutionary psychology arguments do not belong here.  Keep them out.

-> Guideline: musing about why someone might be a certain way is fine.  Strenuously arguing that they should always remain thus, since the behavior or idea in question was helpful thousands of years ago, is unacceptable.  Other reasons are fine, but history as the sole arbiter is absurd.  This is the progress thread, not the "keep everything the way it always was" thread.

6.  You can post articles that are on-topic.  I will probably ask you to remove off-topic articles, which include obvious things and not-so-obvious things.  I do not want debates here about whether gay people are repressing straight people with their very existence or something; if you want to make those arguments, you will be asked to take it out-of-thread.

7. Do not link to a tabloid (such as, e.g., The Daily Mail) as a news source.  You may mock the state of journalism if you like via such links, however.  Satire articles are also okay.


And, feel free to discuss and challenge the rules.  Not constantly, because that's derailment, but a little talking is fine, and if they end up being too stringent or too weak, you can rest assured that I'll change them.  I'm trying to show a strong face for the OP, but, uh... yeah.  This is just plain old normal Vector.

So don't worry.  Being an asshole is not on the menu for today.

[Vector]

Here are the first two links.

Indiana Defies Federal Order to Continue Funding Planned Parenthood.

Louisiana Decides to Ban All Abortion, Period.

Things are not looking good, folks.  I'd probably have more, but I'm pretty sick right now and I don't want to create a deluge.  Anyway, I'm not so happy about this.

[AtomicSneakers]

I don't think it's anyone's right to tell someone else that they aren't allowed access to medical services. Goddamn South.

[Max White]

Indiana Defies Federal Order to Continue Funding Planned Parenthood.

Louisiana Decides to Ban All Abortion, Period.

For my response, see Atomic's Avatar.

[Vertigon]

Goddamn South.

Goddamn everyone else, jumping on the goddamn South. Welp, I can't say much for most Southern states, but Georgia has managed to not fuck up fairly well so far.

[Angle]

This probably belongs here.

And as if terrorizing gay people wasn't enough, now the Rethuglicans want to screw with the environment too.

[Glowcat]

These threads tend to give me Khornite Coprolalia, more for the news reported than the discussion content.

Abortion may be one of those things that causes irreparable division in America because both views can easily cast the other as "evil" from their own perspectives. Though one side's moral limit seems to cross into violence more than the other... Seeing abortion as murder makes them capable of some very immoral things to achieve their idea of a Greater Good.

[Angel Of Death]

I never thought I would say this, but I feel sorry for America. All this abortion banning and slaughtering of gay rights is just insane.

[Aqizzar]

Kudos babe, but since I was namechecked in the first line, I feel like I should give you some pointers.  I was already vaguely familiar with the "abortion"-related shenanigans in Indiana and Louisiana (marked because Planned Parenthood has become the new by-word for abortion, even though anyone who knows two things about the legislation and practice of the organization knows that's nonsense), so I was a little disappointed to see both of your links just lead to some personal blog.  Rule #1 of making your case on the Internet is to track down the legit-news reportage of the story in question.  After that, it's not a rule but it's nice to sum up the story with some factual analysis, so people don't have to slog through a full article to get the gist of it.  I'm sure I don't need to tell you any of that, but as long as I'm here.

I'll give you these ones pro bono.  In Louisiana, a State House committee has sent a bill to the floor that would extend existing laws against infanticide to consensual abortions, in direct violation of Roe vs Wade which ruled that states cannot restrict abortion in the first-trimester.  A quote by the sponsor says it all-

I think we're going at it piecemeal, trying to get two yards at a time, but we haven't gotten one first down... And I think this bill basically shoots for the end zone.

Because football metaphors are the classiest way to discuss violating Supreme Court precedent on abortion.

In Indiana, a law recently passed along with the state budget would strip all funding, local and federal, from Planned Parenthood outlets in the state, which of course is flat out illegal, since it would deny appropriated federal money to where it's supposed to go.  Like I said, Planned Parenthood has become this year's conservative culture-war scapegoat for all things wrong with the family and population and budget (which can't be blamed on NPR or ACORN).  Planned Parenthood is already legally forbidden from using any federally-provided money for performing abortions, through a legal mechanism called the Hyde Amendment (which is part of the Indian Health Service legislation because riders is how all important legislation is passed).  This is mainly accomplished through a rigorous double-blind accounting system which, critics do factually point out, essentially doesn't prevent the organization from ever offering such since they can raise enough money on their own to cover it, but that's not the point.  The point is, Planned Parenthood performs abortions, and therefore must die in the service of political grandstanding.


I'll admit, I was a little leery upon seeing this would be the topic of the thread, since the one time I ever mentioned abortion legislation, it turned into a shitfest in the span of like eight posts.  Not to mention, y'know, I'm a dude, and I don't want to talk out of my ass about medical stuff I don't understand.  Male legislators across the nation would be well served and serve well to take up that principle themselves.  (Except the ones who are actually gynecologists of course; there's a surprisingly large number of gynecologist legislators for some reason.)

[Vector]

*raises fist*

Okay, bro, I'll work harder at tracking stuff down!  Thank you for the pointers!  And thank you for the review of the topic, too.  I shall try much harder to be more informative in the future--I was thinking about more work and then went "nah, bronchitis."  So you can have faith that I'll take care of it next time :I


As far as maturity and abortion topics go, we already had a big abortion argument recently, and there's another one happening in the religion thread... I figgered that we'd be tired out enough that we could talk about it like civilized squids and chameleons.

Maybe not, but why not give it a shot, eh.

[Darkmere]

My major beef with the entire topic is that the issue is ONLY presented with two loaded sides:

Abortion is murder!!!!!1111~~
or
A woman has a right to choose!!!!!111~~~

I want an option that says "It's not a government's job to legislate morality. Fuck off and let people choose for themselves."

No funding, no banning, hands off, gtfo.

I'll be waiting for this option... probably til I die or the country folds.

While we're at it, I'll say I'm in favor of prayer in schools. For everyone. Every single religion represented by the student body, with no restrictions, as long as it doesn't occur within regular classes. Let everyone have a turn. That includes 10 minutes for atheists to sit around and chat.

Also teaching abstinence instead of responsibility is a huge mistake.

[Aqizzar]

I want an option that says "It's not a government's job to legislate morality. Fuck off and let people choose for themselves."

That's exactly the "A woman has a right to choose!!!!!111~~~" position.  You're making the classic mistake of looking at a crazy argument and assuming both sides must be equally crazy, when you are wholly in alignment with one side of it, but want to believe that you're above the issue.  It's not an argument over whose morality to legislate, it one side for enforcing "morality" and one side that's not.

[Grek]

5. Evolutionary psychology arguments do not belong here. Keep them out.

I would like to contest this rule on the grounds that it provides an accurate description of many mental processes such as appetite, perception, language acqusition, reflex action, memeory and so forth. As long as we don't get mired in excessive debate over nature v. nurture, avoid conflating is and ought problems and maintain the board's no bigotry rules, there should not be any issues with allowing evidence brought up by evolutionary psychologists be brought forward.

I'd also like to see the progressivist bingo card.

[breadbocks]

Darkmere, in fact there IS a third side, of which I take part. The "Kill each misuser of tildes, and then there won't be a big issue over who can abort or not, since well, we'll need every last person we can get at that point." side.

More seriously, you really need to think about what you just said. "There are two sides, side A and side B. But there's no side B. I shall complain until I get my side B."

[Leafsnail]

"It's not a government's job to legislate morality. Fuck off and let people choose for themselves."

There seem to be two different interpretations for this:
1. It's not a government's job to legislate morality.  Fuck off and let people choose whether they themselves want to have abortions or not.
This one makes sense, but it's exactly the same as one of the positions you say you're not, which leads me to think that you may actually be saying...

2. It's not a government's job to legislate morality.  Fuck off and let people choose whether other people should be allowed to have abortions or not.
I find this far more problematic, and I'd like you to clarify your position before I make any more assumptions about it.