There's a lot of information here, guys. So much lovely information. Please remain calm.
NOTE: I may have replaced Book's name with Zathras. Please replace these as seen, since I keep forgetting he changed his name.
You're scum. All scum. But most particularly Org. Tell me, why shouldn't we lynch you Day 1?
A few questions for others while I'm at it:
- Pandarsenic, if you were a Heroic Guard and knew nothing who would you absolutely protect with your life? Who would you absolutely not?
- Book, which alien do you think would be most interesting to play? (Also, I now think of Shepard Book anytime I see your name...)
- Ottofar, why do you think I picked these three people to question?
JanusTwoface. You think I'm kidding when I voted you. Some sort of randomvote, eh? No. I was being incredibly serious here.
Let's start with the first two sentences. If you had left these out, I probably would not have voted for you. While policy lynching Org seems to be your goal in life, it's meh. However, calling everyone scum - making a joke - has caught my attention.
Since quoting these next pieces of evidence would take up a lot of room, I'll post URLs. I'll also give brief descriptions, and how they completely differ from what you usually do.
Bastard Paranormal: You do not, in fact, vote for Org here. You do point out your previous Org policy lynching, and instead vote for Leafsnail. But, instead of cracking a joke, you get straight to business. You ask questions. You do things. That's the difference.
Paranormal 17: I would say that this one is perhaps the most influential. Here, you DO VOTE Org. But, you don't make a single joke. It's serious. There are a few points made, but never a joke.
Supernatural 3: Combining this with Paranormal 17. You make the first post, but you do not make a joke. You don't vote for Org, but that doesn't matter to me.
Supernatural 2: You again make no joke here.
Please note that I chose the last Mephansteras games I could find, as that would have both you and Org in them. Not one of them were you scum. Not one did you make a joke while randomvoting. So, I am voting you for that. Believe it or not, I will see you lynched for such a small detail.
Jim: Sadly, Meph's script broke down and made me town this time.
However, it did make me a Kook, so that's something.
Interesting. Toaster, webadict and Janus: what do you think of the viability of claiming Kook right away as a scum tactic? We went through this during Bastardnormal, and I still think it's a ballsy but viable possibility.
As a scum tactic? Terrible, really. It makes them more suspicious later on. It saves Agents from having to investigate people that would return Kook right away. We already know what we'll get when they're investigated. Not only that, but they'll be prime targets for other roles.
If the scum want to claim Kook, I say that it can only be helpful for Town. It's such an easy way to make yourself become the target of other roles.
Plus, in Bastard Paranormal, the scum didn't win. So, your point is extraordinarily moot. You've only successfully proven that you're part of the hard-headed idiots that you seem to be afraid of.
Toaster, I find two kooks unlikely.
Unless there's been a game with two before?
You know how you can check this? Do a little search.
Paranormal 17 - 1 Kook/16 Players
Paranormal 16 - 2 Kooks/16 Players
Paranormal 15 - 1 Kook/14 Players
Now you look awfully stupid, don't you. This took me 5 minutes to find. Seriously, it takes so little time to do information checking.
Meph: I see Jim as voting me, not Toaster. Is it an error, or is there something funny going on with the voting?
The Whiteboard
Toaster: Jim Groovester
Book, as the exterminator, which techs would you pick?
I find the timing of your question interesting: are you an ext, looking for help in figuring out what to pick? I will leave your question unanswered, in case there is an Ext out there (whether it's you or not) I'd rather not assist with tech choices. Let him pick the lamest ones.
I'm going to say you're equally suspicious now.
The first is stupid. I love how you ask if there's something fishy going on in a game without any such fishy things available. It's hilarious. It's incredibly scummy, too.
Secondly, your refusal to answer a simple question is idiotic. If you figured that the Exterminator would pick it, why not just list off the stupidest equipment ever? But, really, I figure it's more likely you're looking for the Exterminator as a dopp. So, have fun being dead
hehZathras, I claimed already. I wouldn't have if Toaster hadn't. See above.
So I see. Yes, gambler's fallacy notwithstanding, I find it suspicious of both of you, though I think Toaster would be better at getting away with it as scum strategy.
Toaster: yes, extra attention is garnered, but as we saw in earlier games, if it can be withstood it leaves the person almost confirmed-townie and won't be inspected, which is an ideal position for a crafty scum.
Are... are you serious? We know what happens when they're investigated. They'll turn up dopp. THAT'S THE POINT OF CLAIMING IT. WE ALREADY KNOW THEY WILL TURN UP AS DOPP, TOWN OR NOT!
Book, as the exterminator, which techs would you pick?
I find the timing of your question interesting: are you an ext, looking for help in figuring out what to pick? I will leave your question unanswered, in case there is an Ext out there (whether it's you or not) I'd rather not assist with tech choices. Let him pick the lamest ones.
Pfffft, this is lame. What's the point of asking RVS questions if you're just going to refuse to answer them? If there is an Exterminator out there with half a brain he won't need your advice on it, and if he does need advice on tech choices he'll probably reveal himself in other ways. So just answer the question.
No. Or at least, not yet. I don't give free advice to the enemy. If people are still interested, I'll answer this in as much detail as you want D2. In the mean time, if you think not answering this question hampers RVS, ask more questions.
The Exterminator is your enemy? Why are you so focused on the Exterminator? Oh, I know. It's because you're a doppelganger. That's why. There's no point in finding an Exterminator on Day 1. You are an idiot if you think you could possibly influence the Exterminator to pick the ULTIMATE gear.
Watch: If I were the Exterminator, I'd pick the goes through protection thing, and I'd pick that permanent inspection protection thing. That way I'd only have to worry about dying, but I'd be so suspicious that I'd rather just fight off the Town during lynching season than get killed by the Dopps.
See: If an Exterminator picks this, they'll still fall to problems of being forced to find a cover, and the Dopps will still be able to kill him. There is no flawless solution.
... He's scum. The automatic attack on everyone enters the game as a joke, rendering any point he makes as moot.
Say what? That sentence doesn't even make sense.
I can understand that. What I meant to say was you cracked a joke. You made a joke, and it was to make your RV funny, instead of serious, so you're not trying to be suspicious. That's the point.
Why are there three people voting Argem?
That's actually a good point... Dariush, Leafsnail, Toaster? Care to elaborate? Particularly Toaster being the third vote and already claiming Kook.
That's not a good point at all. Why does it matter how many people are voting how many people? Three people are voting me. It that a good reason? I mean, have any of them given me a good reason? I don't think so.
I love how you're trying to enforce a particular scumtell for third voter bandwagon, as well as make the Kook claim scummy as well. On a randomvote. That's kind of the point, isn't it? To randomly vote? Yeah, I thought so.
Let me make this perfectly clear: YOU ARE SCUM. YOU ARE SCUM. YOU ARE SCUM. Think I'm still randomvoting? Point out where I started. Yeah, I will make sure you and Zathras start dying.
Interesting. Toaster, webadict and Janus: what do you think of the viability of claiming Kook right away as a scum tactic? We went through this during Bastardnormal, and I still think it's a ballsy but viable possibility.
I wouldn't personally do it. Attacts too much attention (with the possibility of a Reporter or Warden blocking you). It is viable though for some people. Based on previous meta, I don't think either would have tried it without scumteam prodding.
Which ironically clashes with this:
Particularly Toaster being the third vote and already claiming Kook.
So, you don't think it's a scumtell, yet it is probably a scumtell. That is terrible logic, and a passive way of saying that he's scummy.
For the scientist choices, Id Go Assasin bot, body double. For intelligence scientist I really don't know.
As i did in para 17, i would claim day 1 if i was kook. I believe I explained my reasoning quite enough back then.
Webadict, how could massclaiming help ? At worst that would reveal cops and guardians to the dopp, or cause myslinchs if they refuse to reveal. Can't see it helping.
Mysterious, massclaiming helps in certain role heavy games, as there's a balance to be had. It also stops players from claiming things later that inspection and watching would prove they did. Players can come up with a plan for who does what, and everything works out fairly well.
Your assumption seems to be that Guardians and Guards are the best things since sliced bread. Sure, they're great. They usually stop me from dying. But, then they can be watched to see who kills them. They can have people working together. The scum usually horde information. People will claim a couple of times over the course of the game, giving the scum more information than the Town will have. They'll also have guessing and roles that will help them.
Therefore, webadict,
why massclaim? Wouldn't that be giving information to the wrong people? After all, scum already knows who is likely to be telling the truth.
Also, if you were a town roleblocker, who would you block tonight and why?
That's entirely the point. If the scum don't tell the truth, they'll be found out eventually. Multiple roles won't hit each other. Information can be collected secretly, and even Mediums can help out.
Also, you forget about Aliens.
And I would block Janus. Or Zathras. Those two for now. I'll check out who's suspicious later. EDIT: Actually, you're probably scum too, now that I look at it. So, you're in, too.
Webadict, how could massclaiming help ? At worst that would reveal cops and guardians to the dopp, or cause myslinchs if they refuse to reveal. Can't see it helping.
I think he meant a kook massclaim. But yeah, fishy.
Nope. I said massclaim. I do want all Kooks to claim, though. It's not really all that fishy, if you think about it. It's only suspicious if it were a game like BM, where there are few roles to begin with.
To Web, leeway or not you cause hard situation for some town roles. Guardians should never claim, since they are(in my opinion) the most powerfull town role. Claiming is idiotic ( at least until late game) since you basically sacrifice yourself. Not claiming is the same, youll get myslinched or the scum will catch on to it and NK. Scum is hardly that impared. Sure thing like reporter or scan can invalidate the claim, but again they know who to target. You could protect guardians and scans by using pm etc, but again why massclaim in the first place ?
Meh. People are going to die anyway, right? Just remember that there are a few roles that can only be somethings. Kooks can be any role, but Dopp Leaders are Townies, and so anyone that comes up Town to inspection for a role other than Townie will automatically be non-Dopp. You seem to forget this. But, I do appreciate you standing up for your beliefs. It takes some guts to say I'm wrong. I hope you stay alive, so long as you start going after scum.
All he has to do is scumhunt. Same of you. I seem to recall you getting lynched for not scumhunting last game...
To Web, leeway or not you cause hard situation for some town roles. Guardians should never claim, since they are(in my opinion) the most powerfull town role. Claiming is idiotic ( at least until late game) since you basically sacrifice yourself. Not claiming is the same, youll get myslinched or the scum will catch on to it and NK. Scum is hardly that impared. Sure thing like reporter or scan can invalidate the claim, but again they know who to target. You could protect guardians and scans by using pm etc, but again why massclaim in the first place ?
In defense of claiming, you do have several options. Perhaps you have multiple Guardians. They can protect each other. Perhaps you have a Reporter, they can see who goes to kill the Guardian. There's always options, especially in a powerrole heavy game.
I never appreciate people defending things for me. JanusTwoface gains another notch on his scumbelt. It's a form of buddying. Plus, I am more than willing to answer most questions, so long as they do not waste my time.
Plus, Guardians guarding each other is weak. I'd rather they were secretly sent targets while being told targets in thread. This causes WIFOM for scum, especially because I would tell them the exact same thing.
Well, now I wouldn't.
They could coast to victory, but only if no-one scum hunted. Which is *exactly* why I want you to. Why do you refuse to do so?
Regarding the not the other types, the Observant Guard would also be great because you're trading one town for one scum. 99% of the time, it's worth it.
No one can hear you over your chainsaw, Janus. He's attempting to get questions answered, especially on things he believes are scummy.
Interesting. I am 70% sure that a body double death (even lynch) doesn't confirm alignment. Meph, is there any sort of role flip if a body double dies?
They do not. Paranormal 5 had Org, and Paranormal 14 had Jim. They were killed, but they simply showed them as being cyborgs or something else. No flip was done.
So, everyone should step off the Kook claiming thing. Let whoever wants to claim Kook claim Kook. There's nothing scummy about it. But, we'll assume anyone who hasn't claimed Kook is now scum. There. Feel free to freak out about that.
Anybody who wants to claim should, sure. But no, we're not stepping off. It's interesting, important, and a vehicle of inquiry into people's motivations. You feel free to assume anything you want to assume. I'll feel free to step off or not anything I wish.
In general however, I do agree that a Kook claim in itself is a null tell: it doesn't make people scummy on its own, but it doesn't make them townier either. I caution people from falling into that trap, because fakeclaiming it is a viable (if ballsy/non-optimal) strategy for scum. If you're a kook, there are good reasons for claiming, and there are good reasons not to. People's scuminess will be weighted and decided on other factors.
It's about as useful as any of the questions people are asking. Claiming kook tells us what will happen if they're inspected. That protects inspection roles from getting the obvious with no means of counterclaim anymore. This saves us roles that would otherwise be busy trying to lynch kooks.
I, however, like how you say it is both a null tell and making them people of interest. That means that you believe they are in someway more likely to be scum or something. I've got statistics that could prove you wrong, but that's mostly the Gambler's Fallacy at work.
You, sir, are full of shit.
You, ma'am, are even fuller. ;-P
Jokes are never welcome. Not only do I intend to make this serious business, I will use that as evidence against you. You're trying to joke with Joker now. Buddying on a person you're FoSing is never good, especially if they're also going after you.
but thank you for blatantly putting words in my mouth.
I didn't. I merely simplified to give context in a short quote. But never mind, people will read it as they will. I'll instead ask you the direct questions: do you think MBP is town? do you think only town uses the "wait and see" approach?
Another attempt to calm the Joker. You seem to be trying to pacify him so he'll stop going after you.
We do, however, agree on the Kook-claim scenario. It's not a tell, and each person will read into it how they will. Trying to force one or the other is not the optimal way to play.
Agreed. It is, however, interesting, and a worthy topic to start discussion rolling. What's your read on Ottofar so far? What do you make of Wuba's insistence to drop the topic, or the reasons for his vote on Janus?
Oddly enough, you seem to jump from your initial suspicions to others. You've taken a step backward into RVS on Jokerman, despite voting for Toaster for... doing something. Probably being Kook.
like painting town to be the bad guy for doing something else. Like what [Toaster is] doing here. [about MBP]
So, Toaster is painting town to be the bad guy? What makes you think MBP is town? Do you know something we don't? Or is it that you want us to believe "wait and see" is something only town does? Mighty suspicious of you, Jokerman.
The irony is that you yourself are voting for Toaster at this point. And yet you're defending him? Either you don't believe Toaster is acting scummy enough to agree with him, or you believe Toaster isn't doing that, but either way, that's Toaster's concern. Not yours. Why are you protecting the player you're voting for?!? Why are you attempting to calm down a player you yourself stirred up?!?
This is a bunch of crap you've got stewing.
Heheh... no, not really. I just found it funny. But as I said, I don't wish to rehash old arguments, I was just making a point. The rest are normal questions: what's his read on so and so, when to use which tactic, and so on.
No, no fascination. Not my type. 8-P
Emoticons are bad form in mafialand. Please, turn your attack into even MORE of a joke, why don't you. You weren't ever really serious about Jokerman at all, were you? Backtrack.
As for WUBA, I feel like calling for people to drop it isn't a tell either. I'm actually basically saying the same thing; people read things how they want to read them, so they can go for it. It's not really a matter for discussion until it gets like this, you know? As for his reasons for Janus, I feel like there's plenty of time for it to change, since it's sort of a silly reason anyway. I can see what he's saying, but I feel like he's coming on way too strong.
Hahahaha. You feel like I'm not serious about Janus. That's too bad. It's not silly. It's not even fully meta. Janus should hang, and I will only switch to Zathras at this point, unless Argembarger start being more scummy, which I'm sure he will.
You can think I'm coming on way too strong, but there are people saying we shouldn't call people claiming Kook Town. Sure. That goes without saying. But the problem is that they don't want them to be considered more likely to be Town. I do. They are more likely to be Town. And it's due to simple statistics. I'll use the last three games as evidence:
There is a 100% chance of at least 1 Kook. This is surely more like 90%, but using empirical evidence, it's 100%.
33% of those games have had 2 Kooks. So, we'll assume that 66% chance of 1. 33% of 2. All on empirical evidence, of course.
1(2/3) + 2(1/3) = 4/3 as an expected value. That means in every game, there is likely to be 1.333 Kooks. They can only be Town. That means .5(2/3) + 1(1/3) = 66% chance to be Town at the lowest. As opposed to the 4 scum + 2 third parties in a group of 14 people. That means 8/14 = 57% chance to be Town on average. So, yes, they are more likely to be Town.
JanusTwoface, you basically entered the game by claiming we were all scum. It was a joke. I don't like it. I'm voting you. You're going to stay voted, especially since you defended massclaiming in a question to me. Not really pleased with any of that.
So, first you say massclaiming isn't such a bad idea.
Then you give JTF crap for defending massclaiming.
Why are you voting JTF for things you've done?
I'm not voting JTF for things I've done. I'm voting him for a lot of things. The defending of massclaiming was taking my question and answering it in my defense. It was totally uncalled for.
@Jim: Are you mentally deficient? Janus answered a question directed to me for me. That is a form of buddying, especially since I'm voting for him. You're misconstruing the meaning purposefully. I'll congratulate you on finding a new way to fail, however.
So, why are you defending Janus now, Jim? What'd he ever do for you? Why do I hate you always?
Oh, sweet, a WUBA hissyfit.
Because a simple clarification would not just do at all.
It wouldn't, really. It seems like you aren't paying a whole lot of attention when you accuse me of things, and the only efficient way to reclaim my name is to be extra serious.
What made you think I was freaking out?
Because this:
Why do I hate you always?
Awful lot of vitriol for a simple question.
That's because I always dislike your manner of play.
Are you aware you're overreacting to questions? Did you ever attempt to rectify the errors you made, instead of jumping to whatever conclusion is most relevant to your situation?
Because I hardly consider what you did to be trying. All you're really doing is shifting my attention away from Janus for no good reason. (Well, you acting like scum is a good reason, but why would you do that at all?) So, have anything else to say? Or will you jump to a conclusion? (I've got money riding on the jumping!)
This is so lame.
I've responded to all that was worthwhile to respond to. Anything else you want to discuss, WUBA? Because otherwise you're just throwing shit at me to see what sticks.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. I wanted to see how you'd respond, I suppose.
And then there's this one:
First off, unvote.
And to whoever freaked out instantly about massclaiming, go cry in a corner. I never said to massclaim. I said it would be a good strategy. At least learn to read.
You backtrack pretty quickly, I see. What was the sense of offering 'good strategy' if you aren't going to follow it through? And then comes this:
JanusTwoface, you basically entered the game by claiming we were all scum. It was a joke. I don't like it. I'm voting you. You're going to stay voted, especially since you defended massclaiming in a question to me. Not really pleased with any of that.
You acknowledge that this was an RVS joke and still vote JTF for it. Explain, webadict.
JanusTwoface made a joke. I think you're misunderstanding something rather basic. Why would I say I don't like it if I were the one making the joke? Though, I suppose if you're getting to this point in the quote, you'll see I already defended this vote.
Also, it was never a random vote. Not once.
As for the massclaim thing, I'll bring up a quote, since you seem to be so observant. Please, read to me what it says outloud:
I'd even go as far as to say that we should all massclaim, but I'm not entirely sure that would work anymore.
If you're not reading that as a hypothetical, you're not really reading it. We should massclaim. I did not say that we will/must massclaim. I will, however, defend the idea, as it is strategically promising.
For Person
For now i'm concentrating on the 2 kook business. Heres my tought
2 kook are possible, but maybe due to a kink in meph program i dont remmeber it the last games. Unlikely
2 scum fakeclaiming is incredibly risky ( especially if there is a real kook, no way there is 3 in a game) so id say nay to that.
1 scum 1 kook is possible, and i would have a easier time believing the 2nd claim. Scum as few good reason to claim Kook in second, since this funny business will get looked upon more closely. Town kook as no such problem, since he know he can stand up to a telepath investigation.
Question
Ottofar, Why would you not have claimed if toaster did not do it first?
I've got a suggestion: Don't. Focusing on the Kooks is a nowhere road, as at least one of them is Town. You've got better odds of hitting scum by shooting randomly into the crowd of non-Kook-claimers.
For reference, anyone who doesn't claim kook d1 and tries to claim kook later on is scum. End of story. There is no reason whatsoever not to claim kook d1. [...] Alright, I'll bite. What good reason is there to not claim Kook? I can't even imagine.
We've had this conversation before. We clearly don't agree, but we don't have to. There are good reasons for claiming (what you cite), and for not claiming (not to deal with the 'hard-headed idiots', etc); there are good reasons for scum fakeclaiming it (some consider it a "slight town tell" and is an alibi against inspection), there are good reasons for scum not fakeclaiming it (attracts attention). Just as you oppose my finding it suspicious, I oppose your "lynch non-kook-claimaints-D1" policy. Everyone will vote however they want. No matter how many times you say "end of story", everyone writes their own story.
Except for the fact that not claiming it on the first Day is incredibly anti-Town. You waste the Agent's time, get found out, claim it, and then get lynched. Not only do you waste a Night for an Agent (or more), you waste the town's lynch. This is a massive waste of Town resources, and you don't even bother to give them a headnod.
It is a slight town tell, if only because the statistics prove it is. Also, you've managed to backtrack slightly.
Just as you oppose my finding it suspicious, I oppose your "lynch non-kook-claimaints-D1" policy. Everyone will vote however they want. No matter how many times you say "end of story", everyone writes their own story.
You claimed earlier that claiming Kook is a null tell.
We do, however, agree on the Kook-claim scenario. It's not a tell, and each person will read into it how they will. Trying to force one or the other is not the optimal way to play.
Agreed. It is, however, interesting, and a worthy topic to start discussion rolling. What's your read on Ottofar so far? What do you make of Wuba's insistence to drop the topic, or the reasons for his vote on Janus?
So, yes, you are backtracking as well.
The hard-headed idiots are you. You're voting Toaster at this very moment! You've got little more evidence against him other than he claimed Kook. So, idiot, how hard-headed will you remain?
Pandarsenic, webadict: who are your top scum picks so far?
Janus and you. Argembarger to a milder extent. You two will die, though. There is no redemption for either of you.
Webadict is being suspiciously loud this game. I mean, he's always loud and, well, WUBA, but this game it feels as though he's trying too hard to defend himself before evolving into an attack on Jim. I expected the attack sooner, to be honest, and it felt as though he wasn't playing as he usually does as Town, though that's been abated a bit.
I'm not attacking Jim. I'm after JanusTwoface. See the first post of the game? It was directed Janus. Not Jim. I can see how you'd confuse the two. They both start with Js. J is a tough letter.
JTF...it's never easy for me to read JTF, but I feel like he's giving off a more Town vibe. His posts have been constructive and he's been voicing suspicions and pursuing scum. All in all, Town read.
How do you know he's been pursuing scum? Nobody has flipped. I may have to add you to the list.
Could you also refer me to your arguments on Toaster, or just rephrase them so that I can look over them and either agree with them or pick at them?
I haven't made many arguments on Toaster yet, mostly because it's intuition-based on his tone & timing, but there's [1], [2], and I'm still surprised by how fast his claim was: twenty minutes and six posts into the game. Too eager for my tastes, really seems designed to preempt a counterclaim.
As I said, not much, but he's a cryptic fellow.
Right. That means he had no chance to confer with any possible scummates he'd have, which is what I'd do if I were fakeclaiming Kook as scum. Ottofar following it up means he ALSO had no chance to talk.
SO, REMEMBER WHEN YOU SAID IT WAS A NULLTELL?!?
Yeah, I didn't think you did. I think it is now acceptable to call you a hard-headed idiot. And scum.
Jim, Toaster:
Dariush: You have been unusually quiet. Who are your top scum picks? Do you think there's an Exterminator? If you were a kook, would you have claimed? What's your read on Mr.Person and JimG?
Well, nobody has been on my back from the beginning and I have a busy week, so it's understandable that I've been quiter than usual. My top scumpick are webadict and Toaster (for reasons I posted earlier). I think there would be an exterminator since there's such a lot of players. If I was a Kook I wouldn't claim since I don't consider myself experienced enough to deal with the stream of question (and votes by 'hard-headed idiots') that would follow. In my opinion the argument between Person and Jim is a whole load of bullshit offset by Ottofar's RVS question; I don't think that merely conflicting points of view about how much must be revealed in answer are something to panic about.
Also, extension. I want to see what our lurkers have to say about the whole matter.
How am I your top scumpick? I am utterly baffled by your misreading. You seem to think I'm backtracking, but what? Also, explain Toaster while you're at it. I want a re-post of the reasons.
So, all-in-all, JanusTwoface and Zathras are scum. Argembarger is probably scum.
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Topic: Paranormal Mafia Round 18 - Game Over (Read 126444 times)