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[Toaster]

TricMagic:

TricMagic:

And there is a reason I tied those two.

Care to say what it is?


You're talking a lot but not saying much.

And now you're ignoring me, scum.


ToonyMan:

4maskwolf instant-claimed survivor 20 minutes into game start. He did not talk to anybody about doing this. Can we discredit that they aren't some other harmful third-party? No we cannot, but he's not mafia and not worth lynching today.

Yeah, that's pretty much my thought process on the matter as well.  The most likely scenario is that he's telling the truth.  Any other reasonable possibilities are some other third party; I wouldn't be shocked if he's a Devil, for instance.  Mafia (and extremely audacious town) are possibilities far too remote to be considered any real amount.

 
What specifically made you change from NQT to Lucky?  Do you still suspect NQT?


NQT:

Toaster

Could you elaborate, please?  On a scale of 1-10, how convinced are you that 4mask is not on a standard scum team?

I'm 9/10 4mask not being on a scum team, and 6/10 on him not being a serial killer. Scum-team players rarely draw attention to themselves unbidden like that, and claiming wererat is the correct play. I remember playing a survivor in one of Vector's games and the scum team just randomly killed me and I remember musing at the time that I'd have been better off claiming from the start to avoid that fate happening. Here's a question for you: which player is being most cautious right now?

I'm not sold on insta-claiming being the correct play, but I can follow your logic well enough.  Most cautious?  Several players haven't stepped on anyone's toes or kicked up a ruckus, and it's hard to point out any one of them.  Jim, Juicebox, and LuckyOwl spring to mind.  On D1 the line between being cautious because you haven't seen anything convincing and cautious because you're intentionally keeping your head down is wide and blurry, so I'm not faulting anyone for it yet.


LuckyOwl:

I am present, and again I am town. I won't be saying much since I hate day 1 and would only make myself look scummy eventhough I am town. If anything I will be useful for townies during the night phase. If scum kills me then at least you'll see I'll flip and my night action will still go through either way.

Except saying nothing also makes you look scummy.   Think of it this way; if you hunt scum, you may come off looking scummy.  If you refuse to participate, you definitely are acting scummy.  Which is worse?


BluarianKnight:  Why am I getting a feeling you're looking for easy targets?


Juicebox:

That leaves Secretdorf and LuckyOwl, both of whom have been mostly absent for D1. It's unusual for both of them to have this little presence in the game, and I can see an argument that they're both lurking scum.

LuckyOwl: Refusing to participate in the daygame also makes you look scummy. At least if you said something that looks scummy someone could push you on it and possibly come to the conclusion that you aren't scum. As it is the only conclusion we can come to right now is that you don't want to play the game, which if not a scummy sentiment is most definitely anti-town.

Oh look, you have the same scum list as BK, except you post this AFTER Secretdorf goes up for replacement.  You are definitely going after easy targets.

[ToonyMan]

@Toaster:

What specifically made you change from NQT to Lucky?  Do you still suspect NQT?

Lucky is setting off my scum radar pretty hard. I'm not really a huge fan of NQT still, but they have been participating and seem more genuine.

Their readlist looks okay, except they think Secretdorf's reads are good, which I disagree.

Would you consider TricMagic an "easy target"?

[Toaster]

Toony:  Fair enough re LuckyOwl/NQT.

Good question.  TricMagic isn't the hardest of targets; he's still less experienced than many players here.  I don't like the nature of his claim and when I pressed him on his scum reads he responded without a real answer.  Until he convinces me otherwise, I'm happy with my vote.

[Jim Groovester]

NQT's whole response to my claim has been pretty mrrrr for one simple reason.

. . .

I get the point you're trying to make about NQT going too easy on you or giving you too much slack for your survivor claim.

What do you make of TricMagic who more aggressively doubted your claim?

I could probably go dig that up but you're posting ten times more frequently than I am so I figure you have the bandwidth to spoonfeed me.

Thinking on it, I'd propose a 4mask/Secretdorf/scumteam. One with very weird things going on and missing a member, but seeking to turn the lynch off of another.

What makes you think either of those players are trying to throw people off the other?

Jim Groovester: How quaint the suspicious people are at the bottom. Lurking, promising more later, you get the jist. Your streak may end, so best get hunting so it doesn't happen.

Dude give me a break. Not all of us have enough free time that we can make posts about the video games we've finished recently.

I could just be saying that to throw you off track you know. Why the shift to Blue without any reasoning.

Are you trying to WIFOM on purpose?

Well i guess I should get my post count up then.

I'll start by saying I believe Tricmagic's claim, they just seem genuine to me.

I think 4mask's claim is a bit more dubious however, especially when you consider the possibility of a 4mask Toaster scumteam.

For real? The guy who says 'I don't have a valuable role, please spend actions on me to confirm it' seems genuine to you?

I have to say your opinions about the believability of TricMagic's and 4maskwolf's claims are an inversion of mine.

Since you asked NQT

. . .

NQT is null for me

Why NQT when you read him as null?

I am 90%sure luckyowl is mafia this game but I am not going to press that until I have evidence.

Day ends tomorrow and LuckyOwl might not show up to give you evidence to make that assertion. 90% is a pretty strong feeling. Are you really not going to vote?

@Jim:
>has an important meeting today
>gets hammered while singing about titans the night before

>preparing for a meeting any other way

no hammers

Webadict, I meant getting intoxicated there. On beer. Hammered. Shitfaced. Drunk on the booze.

Seven beers to hammer.

juicebox

IcyTea: I plan on finding scum and lynching them D2 instead.

Let's assume there's good town play from other players and scum gets lynched on D1, but you can't quite take credit for it. Where do you start looking for scum on D2?

I had to follow the exchange to figure out what you were poking at here.

Is there much value in asking questions more or less to the tune of 'you already fucked up, how do you dig yourself out of the hole?'?

Jim Groovester

The smart answer is that I would pick people who would help me win but the answer I am going to give is the people who would be funnest to have on my team.

Names, Jim. Who would it be funniest to have on your team?

Firstly I said funnest, as in, most fun, not funniest. And of the players in the game I would probably pick woobadooba, ToonyMan, and Toaster.

As for funniest, I would spend the game converting LuckyOwl over and over again even if he was unconvertable and even if the conversion was successful.

Jim

Didn't read the thread closely but NQT's big scum team breakdown is useful but I didn't see much in the way of scumhunting or declaring reads. I have found in previous games productive gestures like that scummy when absent of meaningful scumhunting.

Absolutely. I get this kind of pushback in every game where I provide information. People are always like "yeah but it's not scum reads". I'm a man for all seasons, I can do both. But I am beholden to the laws of time and space just like everyone else, so I usually can't do both simultaneously. This criticism will hold water if I do literally nothing else in the day other than be informative.

I think the criticism is a bit fairer here than in other games since as of your big breakdown post I don't think you had made much in terms of prods, questions, suspicions, or votes on other players.

Eh, your posts up to the break down were not completely contentless like I was thinking but it's still pretty light. On catching up with the thread I feel a little better about you.

IcyTea

Pressure vote or lynch vote? Not clear on the reasons if the latter.

I felt like I wasn't being pressuring enough - so I used my vote. I bandwagoned and let others lead me along last night, and I realized I probably should make a more legitimate claim before putting my vote out. It's why dropped my vote on you - I didn't have much of a claim, and my intuition told me on second-read you probably were town.

. . .

I was trying too hard at the time - again, didn't build a case, was terrible scumhunting practices I'll admit to now.
Also; parroting Web? Yeah, I did that too. I'll admit this now - I've got a bias on Web and Vector - both of them I highly respect, and I've tried to base my strategies off of their plays (wackiness + well researched posts). So, when I saw this;

. . .

I was definitely swayed by this  - I'll try to keep my bias off this, but I'm willing to admit fault.

Okay you are doing nothing to make me feel less uneasy about you and in fact are doing the opposite. You are increasing my unease about you.

Mafia is not the game to fall on your sword and bend in response to pressure.

You are acting.

Mmm, yes. My votes give you reason to think I'm town. Which votes are those? I have not cast a vote during Day 1.

Off from work. Expect a bigger post in a couple hours.

Welp. I didn't mean votes - I meant prods. I got no fucking clue why I put votes.

I could and am very much tempted to accuse you of making bland reads lists without putting much thought or detail into them, and otherwise going through the motions.

@Vector: Pocketing the noob? I like that you think I exist in a vacuum, and that I can't expect people to be Town unless they are a noob. I watched all of Vengeful 14 and saw a good player. I watched YellowPixel's play, too. I will say that BK is not really a noob to me. YP is, but BK seems like their experience translates well here, so not exactly a noob. Though, I will correct something I missed yesterday: I meant to type that, within the last few games we've played, I have suspected you as Town, however, this time I feel much more solidly that this assertion is correct, especially since you hardswerved based on that accusation and OMGUSed back.

Your own readslist has a number of skilled players at the top, so obviously that wasn't my point. BK is an outsider relative to this board, thus potentially psychological vulnerable, thus good to buddy and pocket. You buddied up to them, and you didn't do the usual "if you want to take down BK, you'll go through me first!" thing you typically do as town (see HK on MU, MightyMushroom in CYOM4, repeatedly chainsawing me and LuckyOwl in various other games).

You have indeed suspected me as town on many occasions, but you have also, every single time, tried to determine if I was town, because you know that having me on your side is better than the other way around. But this time it's impossible, so you have to attack me -- tentatively, gently, because you know I haven't done anything -- and rely on thin scumtells, like "Vector playing erratically" (when have I not?).

I'm not swerving based on your accusation, kiddo. I'm swerving because you outed yourself as scum. You know that you have to come and get me. It's what we do. But you also know that I've got teeth, and this time, you sound like you're afraid to die.

This analysis confuses me mostly because its premise requires a mindset for webadict that I don't necessarily see him exhibiting.

But your attack is also directed at webadict so I have no reason to intervene on his behalf.

MINDGAMES

MINDGAMES

Alright I am going to check out of trying to understand this exchange.

I am present, and again I am town. I won't be saying much since I hate day 1 and would only make myself look scummy eventhough I am town. If anything I will be useful for townies during the night phase. If scum kills me then at least you'll see I'll flip and my night action will still go through either way.

This seems unusually low effort for LuckyOwl.



I find Secretdorf, LuckyOwl, and BluearianKnight scummiest of the players here. Secretdorf for not voting a player he finds 90% scummy, LuckyOwl for being abnormally passive (pfeh, feels like saying Org is low content though), and BluearianKnight for making me feel like he's trying to tune his appearance a certain way but not succeeding particularly well at it.

Let's go with Secretdorf. Yeah he's being replaced whatever.

[Toaster]

Jimbo:

I find Secretdorf, LuckyOwl, and BluearianKnight scummiest of the players here. Secretdorf for not voting a player he finds 90% scummy, LuckyOwl for being abnormally passive (pfeh, feels like saying Org is low content though), and BluearianKnight for making me feel like he's trying to tune his appearance a certain way but not succeeding particularly well at it.

Let's go with Secretdorf. Yeah he's being replaced whatever.

Really, dude?  That one of those three?  This is a crap vote.

[Jim Groovester]

A lot of people have been piling on Secretdorf but it's the most clear cut case of the three players I suspect.



You seem crankier than in CYOM4.

[Toaster]

Secretdorf played like someone who didn't have much time to give to the game, and now he's asking for a replace for just that reason.  He was talky enough in Vengeful 14 and CYOM4.

I barely played CYOM4, so there's hardly any standard of comparison.  I actually have more time to participate this game.

[ToonyMan]

@Toaster & Jim about Secretdorf:
I do find this odd.

I'm not sure about Secretdorf right now (similar to TricMagic), but what's interesting is that both of you had strong suspicions of Secret in CYOM4 (Toaster's case on Secret / Jim's case on Secret). All three of you were town in CYOM4 so I find it interesting that Toaster isn't getting the same "scum" pings on their radar when I think Secret has been acting about the same in this game.

The best part? Both Toaster and Jim chose to vote town!Secret over mafia!TricMagic. This is a complete flip in Toaster's behavior.

PPE:

Secretdorf played like someone who didn't have much time to give to the game, and now he's asking for a replace for just that reason.  He was talky enough in Vengeful 14 and CYOM4.
I barely played CYOM4, so there's hardly any standard of comparison.  I actually have more time to participate this game.

Hmmmm. Would you say you have a better read on Secret and Tric now?

[Toaster]

My read on Secret is entirely behavioral- that his argument that he has no time to play matches up with his actions.  I don't have an alignment read on him at all; my argument against his "read list" evaporated when he asked for a replacement.

I don't find his play here comparable to CYOM4.

Tric I need more out of, but his continued resolve to ignore my question isn't winning him any points.  It's entirely a lynch vote at this point.

[Jim Groovester]

Secretdorf played like someone who didn't have much time to give to the game, and now he's asking for a replace for just that reason.  He was talky enough in Vengeful 14 and CYOM4.

Maybe I'm being unfair but I don't really care.

Who should I be voting if Secretdorf is such an awful choice?

I barely played CYOM4, so there's hardly any standard of comparison.  I actually have more time to participate this game.

I'll go do a spot check of BYOR15 as well but I don't get the same feeling of aggravation from those games that I get from you in this game. Okay I did a very lazy spot check and confirmed my subjective recollection.

Is this your first time being scum since your return from extended hiatus? I was cranky in BYOR15 and I was scum in that game.

[Vector]

Toaster was scum in the recent Exquisite game.

[Jim Groovester]

Dang.

I guess I'll check that out to see if he's cranky.

[webadict]

Since you asked NQT

...

NQT is null for me, as well as Web and Vector, Bluarian Knight,Toaster, and JG

...

That leaves Secretdorf and LuckyOwl, both of whom have been mostly absent for D1. It's unusual for both of them to have this little presence in the game, and I can see an argument that they're both lurking scum.

I'm super tired, but this doesn't make any sense at all. Why are you voting NQT if you nullread them but also scumlean on two other people? What's the game plan?

[ToonyMan]

I don't find his play here comparable to CYOM4.

You sure about that? I'm seeing the same Secret in both these games, the only difference is that Secret chose not to replace out in CYOM4. He was town in that so are you saying he's mafia now?

[Vector]

(pfeh, feels like saying Org is low content though)

I LOL'd.

OK, a readslist. Players in blue are ones where I should do more work in the near future. Future-Vector, my mouth is writing a check that you're gonna have to cash. FYI the blues are not FoSes, they're mostly strong players who are currently sliding and Tricmagic.

webadict, Vector. could they be w/w? mindgames mindgames mindgames (web is right though, I got bored and I'm gonna park my vote elsewhere for now)

Secretdorf - replacing out so idgaf. I hated the readlist but they're replacing out. I haven't figured out yet what being jittery says about their alignment.
4maskwolf - apparently 3rd party so idgaf, thx for claiming, I genuinely appreciate it.

Toaster, Jim - two vets whose towniness seems to be easily measured by participation at the moment. So far they're participating.

TricMagic - I didn't exactly like the VT-claim. At this point I have zero trust of my gut regarding Tric, so, I should put more pressure here.
Toony - I think Toony is town this time but of Toaster, Jim, and Toony (who are all clustered in my head for some reason), I'd put Toony as most likely scum. He's definitely putting in the work, though.
Luckyowl - Not liking the bowing out D1 thing "yah yah I'm town" thing. Like, genuinely hate it, am tired of LYLOing with them just b/c they're un-NKable. Would gladly defenestrate D1.
juicebox - isn't lurking hardcore, therefore maybe town? or maybe finally learned their lesson?
IcyTea31 - I really don't like their D1 playstyle. We've had this conversation before. That doesn't mean they're scum. Doesn't mean they're town either.


Scumtier:
BluarianKnight - I agree with everything everyone else has been saying. I will gladly switch my vote here at EoD if the scumtells keep pinata-ing out but I think it will be more productive elsewhere for now.

Blue is doing some serious overexplaining as Jim has pointed out. For me the scummiest thing here is the strong push for low-hanging fruit.

notquitethere - NQT, you have a fair point about expectations of analysis and being in a no-win situation, but I also recall that as scum you have a habit of analyzing the setup over interactions; in the recent BYOR, you said "I'll get to it D2," whereas in Skynet's game, you made sure to have something even when, with your own style, you admittedly take time to get things rolling.

Also, you're currently voting ICT, but as far as I can tell the only reason why that's happening is because ICT called you out (for reasons you disagree with, but whatever). I guess I'll follow up with a couple of questions:

- What do you think of the rest of ICT's play so far this game?
- If ICT is scum, who else do you think is on the team?
- OK, and the vision test: who is scummier, Blue or juicebox? And why?

ICT, could we have your readslist when you're around next? And your general impression of the current conflicts?