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[Vector]

*sigh* When I was growing up, it was when a car was stopped at a red light and everyone got out and switched seats.

Anyway, yeah, knowledge is power ...

[Luckyowl]

To be honest. I just hadn't have enough time to be active and the time I do have for myself I usually be with my people or playing games. So I am sorry, if my lack of activity seemed scummy. But life, man.

I honestly wanted to get lynched eariler because it would've easily make Web or ToonyMan scummy. My intuition told me that Web was the mafia when he tried to defend Vector. I'm not sure why no one saw that. But this is what I mean when town should outguess the mafia.  Anyone who is trying to be perfect town is scummy. A real town player is unsure and are more likely delve into wild theories or make little mistakes here and there.

[webadict]

To be honest. I just hadn't have enough time to be active and the time I do have for myself I usually be with my people or playing games. So I am sorry, if my lack of activity seemed scummy. But life, man.

I honestly wanted to get lynched eariler because it would've easily make Web or ToonyMan scummy. My intuition told me that Web was the mafia when he tried to defend Vector. I'm not sure why no one saw that. But this is what I mean when town should outguess the mafia.  Anyone who is trying to be perfect town is scummy. A real town player is unsure and are more likely delve into wild theories or make little mistakes here and there.

It's not always about what you feel is right. It's about what you can convince others about what is right. In that way, Mafia is a game about the perception of perceptions. Whose perceptions are fundamentally flawed because they are Mafia, and who can you get to perceive them as Mafia as well?  If you can't convince people you're right, then it doesn't really matter if you are or aren't.

[ToonyMan]

My intuition told me that Web was the mafia when he tried to defend Vector. I'm not sure why no one saw that.

Then post saying that and vote him!! I can't agree with someone who isn't pushing any cases.

You felt extremely town to me at the end of Day 2 because you naturally felt I was misguided town while Webadict was playing cool and relaxed, this is what "reads" are and it's important to state them. During the course of a game I recommend looking at each player and thinking "How would they post if they were mafia? As town? Is what they're saying making me feel indicative of that? Why?" After doing this for each player in the game, post your thoughts in the thread.

Like-minded players will probably share similar feelings, and that can be a sign that you're both town. On the other hand if somebody is being too friendly with you that means they don't show any distrust of you, which is suspicious.

My first, and biggest, personal failing was trusting 4maskwolf's survivor claim wholeheartedly on Day 1. I did not suspect him of being mafia at all, but I should have considered a malicious third-party, especially after MVM2 fucked me over at the end with Secretdorf. 4maskwolf being the top poster and always active in the thread will skew my perspective of a player as pro-town and trying to be helpful. This is true for Webadict as well, probably the second most active poster after me.

My second personal failing was doubting you, Lucky, again on Day 3, after Jim lied to Vector about you taking their devil deal, when I should have disregarded anything a player that has already lost would say. It's not even the same as if Jim was mafia, Jim was a solo third-party with no obligation to tell the truth or lie. His remarks should have been fully disregarded and ignored. Instead I soaked up the propaganda and reverted my trust of Lucky that was built at the end of Day 2. If Webadict was town this wouldn't have been fatal, but they weren't, and it truly cost town the game.

Like I said myself on Day 3:

Lucky, if you're town this is the most important day of your life.

You need to explain to me why you're town and who is scum.

Who is the Dark Magus?
Who is the convert?
Where is the second kill coming from?

If this is all a ploy to deceive town and cause us to mislynch you I don't think we can recover from it.

If you are playing to town's wincon you will take this seriously and answer me.

[Luckyowl]

To be honest. I just hadn't have enough time to be active and the time I do have for myself I usually be with my people or playing games. So I am sorry, if my lack of activity seemed scummy. But life, man.

I honestly wanted to get lynched eariler because it would've easily make Web or ToonyMan scummy. My intuition told me that Web was the mafia when he tried to defend Vector. I'm not sure why no one saw that. But this is what I mean when town should outguess the mafia.  Anyone who is trying to be perfect town is scummy. A real town player is unsure and are more likely delve into wild theories or make little mistakes here and there.

It's not always about what you feel is right. It's about what you can convince others about what is right. In that way, Mafia is a game about the perception of perceptions. Whose perceptions are fundamentally flawed because they are Mafia, and who can you get to perceive them as Mafia as well?  If you can't convince people you're right, then it doesn't really matter if you are or aren't.

Yeah, you're right on that. I think it's my unwillingness to build massive cased as those can be drainning to do. Instead I prefer to give my opinion on the game. But the problem with that is what you said. It's not convincing. At the end. You were able to get people to overlook your odd defensive case on why Vector is town no matter what because I was too lazy to go in depth on why it looked so scummy. How your whole case against me throughout the game felt force and ridiclous. Honestly the best move was too lynch me on day 1. So I wouldn't have brought back a demon and it would've made you and ToonyMan look scummy. 

[Mephansteras]

I find that the ordered Reads that a lot of people do is quite helpful without needing to be super in-depth.

So stuff like:

Town Read
Player A : reason
Player B : reason
Player C : reason

Null Read
Player D : reason
Player E : reason

Scum Read
Player F : reason
Player G : reason
Player H : reason + Reason you're voting them


Keep this list in like a notepad text file on your computer. Updated it as you think of things. Use it to help you galvanize your thoughts. Keep it open while you're reading the thread and add your notes to it or move people around as you go through the game. Don't leave it all for a giant chunk of work that's hard to do all at once.

Reasons can be a simple as 'gut feeling' or 'buddied so and so' or whatever. They don't have to be deep and thought out. They can be, and that's good, and when someone calls you on a read you can expand on it.

Basically, I'm saying chunk up the work to make it easier on yourself to be a good player.

This is good practice no matter what side you're on or what role you have and it'll make the game better for you and everyone else who is playing.

[webadict]

That's true. I try to be a little descriptive of why I feel what I feel, but if you post what Meph has, there's a paper trail to judge you on, and you will be in a much better position.

[Toaster]

As a counterpoint, I'm too ADD to contain reads of too many players in my head.  Honestly not sure what my limit is, but it's at least six and definitely less than 13.  That's why I've struggled on D1 since coming back and also why I don't much care for structured read lists; I probably don't have an opinion on half the players 3/4 through Day 1.


Making notes is a good idea though and I should probably do that...

[webadict]

I usually just open a reply and start jotting down how people look to me. If some does something suspicipus, I move them down. If they do something Towny, I move them up.

If you can only read a couple people, then stick with that, but in those cases, I highly recommend bandwagoning! Give some feelings on what you can and then try to jump on someone else's case if you feel it's good enough!

[4maskwolf]

To be honest. I just hadn't have enough time to be active and the time I do have for myself I usually be with my people or playing games. So I am sorry, if my lack of activity seemed scummy. But life, man.

I honestly wanted to get lynched eariler because it would've easily make Web or ToonyMan scummy. My intuition told me that Web was the mafia when he tried to defend Vector. I'm not sure why no one saw that. But this is what I mean when town should outguess the mafia.  Anyone who is trying to be perfect town is scummy. A real town player is unsure and are more likely delve into wild theories or make little mistakes here and there.

It's not always about what you feel is right. It's about what you can convince others about what is right. In that way, Mafia is a game about the perception of perceptions. Whose perceptions are fundamentally flawed because they are Mafia, and who can you get to perceive them as Mafia as well?  If you can't convince people you're right, then it doesn't really matter if you are or aren't.

Yeah, you're right on that. I think it's my unwillingness to build massive cased as those can be drainning to do. Instead I prefer to give my opinion on the game. But the problem with that is what you said. It's not convincing. At the end. You were able to get people to overlook your odd defensive case on why Vector is town no matter what because I was too lazy to go in depth on why it looked so scummy. How your whole case against me throughout the game felt force and ridiclous. Honestly the best move was too lynch me on day 1. So I wouldn't have brought back a demon and it would've made you and ToonyMan look scummy.

There's a cheat you can use to get around making massive, tiring cases on people.

Personally address your towncore. Make a smaller, concise case and directly ask people you think are townie to engage with it. Look at what NQT did at EoD 1 in BYOR 15. There simply wasn't enough Leafsnail content to build some kind of airtight, unbreakable case on him, but NQT still thought he was wolfy, so what did he do? He started talking to people directly. If you were present in the thread, he would address you directly to plead his case to you. And it worked, too, it created a wagon big enough the wolves started getting nervous. By directly addressing people, you can turn a general case that people will walk past and ignore into a personal case they're directly involved in.

It's a useful trick for wolves, too, even if the only purpose of doing it is to screw with Toonyman for no practical value.

[Vector]

I get too tired to chew everyone and everything. It's less that I don't have the energy I used to due to some abstract sense of "getting older," and more that the overwhelming majority of my energy is being sunk on math because Grad School is no joke. Ah, for the undergraduate years, when many of my weekly problem sets could be written on a single page >_> I never liked playing twitchy video games as a kid but now they're a really good way to relax in between problem solving sessions.

Anyway, mafia-wise I try to pick a few targets who it would be particularly helpful for the town to have new information on. I guess what doesn't work very well about this is that, for example, I work really hard to build a case or anti-case on someone and then they get NKed.

Probably I should try to change the way I play so that my methods are better suited to the New, Old Vec . . .

[webadict]

Actually, NQT did that same thing in this game on D2, when there was a huge spread. It was actually a very productive method, because it turned 6 cases into 2-3. It "technically" hit scum, but the point was it created a focus, and people that were available had to engage with the content. Your choices at the end of the Day mattered, and you made a choice that affects how you look!

@Vector: Priorities! You gotta do that math thing first, so don't sweat it. I think 4maskwolf is right here. If you can use the NQT method to bring people into focus, you're doing more for the Town than if you focus on building a case on someone.

Like, for example, when you were building a case D4, I knew you were going to post things, so... I might have Shortened the Day just in case it was bad for me . But, if you had popped in with a quick note that said "Hey, webadict is kinda scummy." and left it at that? Well, that would have made it hard for me to Shorten without acknowledging that statement! Old Vector likes to make huge cases that really nail points home. But, I think it can be inefficient, too.

Maybe the shorter and sweet stuff is what really captures attentions! I think your perception is really good, so worry less about explaining it, and more about getting a quick note about what it is. If people need explanations, they can wait for them!

[Vector]

Hmm. The "Drive-By Shooting" style of mafia engagement. I like it. Get ready, Mafia MMers ...