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[IcyTea31]

TricMagic

For making a joke post, then pushing forth another as the actual readlist, but it's just as bad? I simply gave my Honest opinion on things. It's by no means a final one, that will occur as the day approaches the end.

No, for making reads which don't make sense when placed next to each other. I would accept calling LO and NQT scum for lurking, and calling them null. Calling them town would be weird, but wouldn't be inconsistent. However, it's nonsensical to have different reads on two players you have similarly little information on. I don't know if you're lying to me, or lying to yourself via cognitive dissonance, but you're not being honest.


notquitethere

What are we supposed to take away from the scumteam speculation? Wouldn't it have been better to do it on, say, D2 or D3 when we've had some flavour hints and possibly a dead scum team member, rather than on D1 when we don't? This early, it mostly strikes me as a distraction and a waste of time.

[ToonyMan]

Extremely suspicious of Luckyowl's reclusive behavior so far. Got something to hide?


@IcyTea:

notquitethere
What are we supposed to take away from the scumteam speculation? Wouldn't it have been better to do it on, say, D2 or D3 when we've had some flavour hints and possibly a dead scum team member, rather than on D1 when we don't? This early, it mostly strikes me as a distraction and a waste of time.

I think it's fine. His information isn't wrong and it's good to know (though I dislike the suspicious tone towards 4maskwolf and the unsuspicious tone towards TricMagic, feels manipulative). I'm more looking forward to their next post though.

About 4mask:

As we've seen an existing roles (werebear, necromancer) be repurposed as a serial killer, I wouldn't be too surprised to see this happen again. Could even have a wererat serial killer.

About TricMagic:

In some games there is the "Townsperson" role, which is just vanilla townie.

[Jim Groovester]

Kind of annoyed at getting called a lurker because I have a day job and don't have much time to play while I'm on the clock.

Didn't read the thread closely but NQT's big scum team breakdown is useful but I didn't see much in the way of scumhunting or declaring reads. I have found in previous games productive gestures like that scummy when absent of meaningful scumhunting.

More later when I'm not at work.

My meeting went well by the way, as if there was no better way that I could have prepared for it than what I did.

[Vector]

Splitting into two posts on different themes ...

Vector:

I thought you were RiA-ing with a bunch of posts about someone who wasn't in the game to piss me off.

How did this make it into a separate post instead of one bigger one with the post above it?

Ah, because after I posted I realized a key component of why I thought as I did: a conversation with 4mask after our game together on another site about his previous tendency to use RiA as scum. I wanted to make sure that I posted using the phrase "RiA" so that he would understand the connection. He also knows that we haven't played any games together as anything except town/town, so ... anyway.

To be honest, I expected your answer to be along the lines of not wanting to say you'd shoot me to my face, or anyone's but a faceless "other guy". At the time I asked the original question, there was little to reread, little to make that contextual decision beyond what you know about me from the past. The question thus becomes "Do you trust me?" and "Would you dare to say to my face that you don't trust me?" Let's move this to another context: endgame: me you, and a faceless third person. Which is more important, what we say then, or what we said before then?

Uh, sure. Although I'm starting to be very curious about what you think outside the context of these RVS questions.

I'm happy to tell you to your face that I'd shoot you if I thought you were scum. No, I don't trust you, I know that you play this game well and I have respect for your knowledge of it.

I think I would probably be inclined to pay more attention to what was said before in order to avoid being twisted by last-minute emotional appeals.

[Vector]

Webadict, you really need to up your scum game.

Where's the vitriol? Where's the uncertainty? The verve? "Even less a fan of my posting than you usually are?" Bullshit. You know you've never said that, and you know that you usually don't need to manufacture a scum read on me to come poke my buttons. Scumadict lacks the playfulness and sharpness of town webadict.

Also, proud of you for practicing pocketing on the noob. Better luck next time, nerd.

Sometimes I get the impression you're playing five years in the past.

Not that this is actually relevant to anything but webadict has been a pretty chill dude from my observations of how he's played since my glorious return.

By and large I can't actually figure out why you voted any of the targets you voted, except for me since you were waiting on an RVS response.

Nah, I'm basing this on the, what, 5 games I recently played with Web. Web may be pretty chill overall, but as town he's not this chill. His reads are too tentative and he's normally more paranoid than this as town. See: Web going off on Shadowdump, Web's everything in the team game we just played together.


Speaking of which ...

@Vector: Pocketing the noob? I like that you think I exist in a vacuum, and that I can't expect people to be Town unless they are a noob. I watched all of Vengeful 14 and saw a good player. I watched YellowPixel's play, too. I will say that BK is not really a noob to me. YP is, but BK seems like their experience translates well here, so not exactly a noob. Though, I will correct something I missed yesterday: I meant to type that, within the last few games we've played, I have suspected you as Town, however, this time I feel much more solidly that this assertion is correct, especially since you hardswerved based on that accusation and OMGUSed back.

Your own readslist has a number of skilled players at the top, so obviously that wasn't my point. BK is an outsider relative to this board, thus potentially psychological vulnerable, thus good to buddy and pocket. You buddied up to them, and you didn't do the usual "if you want to take down BK, you'll go through me first!" thing you typically do as town (see HK on MU, MightyMushroom in CYOM4, repeatedly chainsawing me and LuckyOwl in various other games).

You have indeed suspected me as town on many occasions, but you have also, every single time, tried to determine if I was town, because you know that having me on your side is better than the other way around. But this time it's impossible, so you have to attack me -- tentatively, gently, because you know I haven't done anything -- and rely on thin scumtells, like "Vector playing erratically" (when have I not?).

I'm not swerving based on your accusation, kiddo. I'm swerving because you outed yourself as scum. You know that you have to come and get me. It's what we do. But you also know that I've got teeth, and this time, you sound like you're afraid to die.

[Vector]

What are we supposed to take away from the scumteam speculation? Wouldn't it have been better to do it on, say, D2 or D3 when we've had some flavour hints and possibly a dead scum team member, rather than on D1 when we don't? This early, it mostly strikes me as a distraction and a waste of time.

My guess is that it has something to do with how suspicious it is that Tric has claimed something along the lines of VT, but:

Didn't read the thread closely but NQT's big scum team breakdown is useful but I didn't see much in the way of scumhunting or declaring reads. I have found in previous games productive gestures like that scummy when absent of meaningful scumhunting.

Also this.


But on the other hand, NQT has promised more. So I look forward to hearing about that "more."

[IcyTea31]

Vector

Uh, sure. Although I'm starting to be very curious about what you think outside the context of these RVS questions.

Fair enough. I think you've been telling me what you think I want to hear, and leaned on the obvious answers more than ones which would elicit responses from me. This, combined with the general low-profile attitude you've showed (except in regards to webadict, interestingly), I currently lean towards a scum-or-cop read. In other words, I suspect that you have a plan for winning the game in the Night. For which team, I'm not sure.

Didn't read the thread closely but NQT's big scum team breakdown is useful but I didn't see much in the way of scumhunting or declaring reads. I have found in previous games productive gestures like that scummy when absent of meaningful scumhunting.

Also this.

Yes, that's my point in calling the post a distraction. I don't see a useful takeaway from it, so I'm asking NQT what its purpose is, because I could definitely see scum!NQT posting something like that to display "productivity" without actually participating in the daygame himself.

[juicebox]

TricMagic

My run specifically.

Icytea. I get it was just after, but one could pay attention. I'l forgive you, if only because I'm coming off a finishing post in Vengeful. And instincts are very useful in a social game, it's how you determine something is wrong with how things are worded. Or logic, but in that case I'll go with instinct until proper logic appears to fault that instinct.

Wait, you were calling yourself scummy? That's my mistake, then. I'd still like you to try to follow up on those instincts, perhaps by asking a question which requires an alignment-specific answer?


Vector

I mean, if you want my real answer? I'd go back and reread the thread until I had more information on you, the other guy, and the person who started the thunderdome. It depends on what Day it is. It depends on who else is dead and how much information each kill would provide, blah blah blah blah blah for me it's more about context than about any one person involved and without that context the question doesn't give viable information about my ge-new-eye-N thought process.

But you know that.

To be honest, I expected your answer to be along the lines of not wanting to say you'd shoot me to my face, or anyone's but a faceless "other guy". At the time I asked the original question, there was little to reread, little to make that contextual decision beyond what you know about me from the past. The question thus becomes "Do you trust me?" and "Would you dare to say to my face that you don't trust me?" Let's move this to another context: endgame: me you, and a faceless third person. Which is more important, what we say then, or what we said before then?


BluarianKnight

IcyTea31 - Which person here would worry you the most of they were scum?

Definitely notquitethere. He's the type of player who's well capable of pulling a genealogical account of why I, my mother, and my mother's mother are all scum out of nowhere. Even though in that situation I'd know it was false, I'd have to do a similar amount of analysis and work to prove that to the other players.

IcyTea31 - His first questions had plenty that were, at least to me, too pointed and aggressive for scumhunting. Scumleaning.

First time I've been called scum for that, BluarianKnight. How do you scumhunt without asking pointed and aggressive questions?

Web gives me the opposite vibes - something's off - the buddying thing is sort of similar

Which buddying thing? Surely not the part where I opened my game with a joking accusation?


juicebox

IcyTea: I plan on finding scum and lynching them D2 instead.

Let's assume there's good town play from other players and scum gets lynched on D1, but you can't quite take credit for it. Where do you start looking for scum on D2?


Secretdorf

Luckyowl, you better be mafia this time.

4maskwolf is mafia, probably.

Tricmagic is mafia, too, probably. Because I don't see how claiming VT will help us. At least, mafia would have killed you instead of a PR. And you say we should waste a track on you?

Webadict is mafia, too, probably.

Toonyman is mafia, too, probably.

Toaster is town, probably.

Icytea is mafia, too, probably.

Wanna narrow that down a bit? Surely there aren't 6 scum in a 13-player game, especially one with a claimed third party?


Jim Groovester

The smart answer is that I would pick people who would help me win but the answer I am going to give is the people who would be funnest to have on my team.

Names, Jim. Who would it be funniest to have on your team?


webadict

Pretty good conrent so far.

Feels kinda eh-y, but... I dunno, call it intuition.

Is my content "pretty good" or "kinda eh-y"?


General reads:

Webadict and Vector's spat seems genuine, probably not both scum.

This isn't quite how TricMagic has acted in the past when unenthusiastic about their role, though it is better performance than expected. Possibilities range up to being coached by a scumbuddy, but I'm willing to count it as genuinely improved town play for now.

4maskwolf's survivor claim, if false, is more likely jester than mafia at this point. Trusting for now, since there's a promise of no jesters.

Jim Groovester's opening post matches my thoughts pretty well. The single post leans town, but I'll want more.

Just realized I forgot to answer this question. I would start by looking at that scum player's interactions on D1, and try to deduce who could and couldn't be on a scumteam with them. If I can't reach a conclusion from that, I look at what's been going on d2 and see if I can spot a slip or make a case on someone based on their d2 actions.

[webadict]

@Vector: You know what, I was going to argue with several of your points, but I realized that, technically, some of them are correct. But, I think I have a pretty good idea what the end goal here is. You want me to lash out at you. You want me to break. To see the shattered remnants.

So, instead, I will let you bite and gnash and attack because you will eventually wear yourself out when I don't bend. Eventually you will grow tired. Eventually you will stop.

And now that I've said that, you have two choices, don't you? You can keep throwing down at full throttle, or you can accept the obvious reality.

I am most assuredly Town. My ultimate goal is to find scum. I can't really argue that I'm within meta because, well, I'm not. But I think you want to be, and it feels incredibly scummy that you're attacking me for not attacking you on your turf.

If tou want to use meta tells on me, that means you want me to use meta tells on you, and it feels like you want me to read you as Town OR you think that you can push me to read you as Town as evidence that I'm scum. I just don't feel the latter, honestly. And I think that might force for Nitro.

[Vector]

If tou want to use meta tells on me, that means you want me to use meta tells on you, and it feels like you want me to read you as Town OR you think that you can push me to read you as Town as evidence that I'm scum. I just don't feel the latter, honestly. And I think that might force for Nitro.

. . . . . ?

I'm attacking you because you've been using spurious reasoning, like claiming that I'm using meta tells on you in order to ... push you to read me in a particular way. Or claiming that my side comment about your pocketing BK meant that I thought "someone must be new in order to be town."

I'm using meta tells on you as part of determining your alignment. I don't have some goal of hurting your feelings just in order to hurt your feelings (that would be crazy, not to mention malicious) and I'm definitely not trying to read you in order to defensively get you to clear me based on meta. I honestly can't remember a single game where anyone has tried to clear or catch me based on meta. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I just don't know any. So the point is: deliberately playing within my own meta doesn't make sense if that meta has not been previously articulated.

Like, I honestly don't care if you park your vote on me for the rest of the game. I'm voting you because I'm pretty sure you're scum, and I'm way more interested in that than anything you think of me.

Vector

Uh, sure. Although I'm starting to be very curious about what you think outside the context of these RVS questions.

Fair enough. I think you've been telling me what you think I want to hear, and leaned on the obvious answers more than ones which would elicit responses from me. This, combined with the general low-profile attitude you've showed (except in regards to webadict, interestingly), I currently lean towards a scum-or-cop read. In other words, I suspect that you have a plan for winning the game in the Night. For which team, I'm not sure.

That's interesting, but for clarity, I'm curious about your general reads. You've been following up on RVS questions for a while.

[notquitethere]

Toonyman

Zombies don't play during the day but they can talk with the Necromancer in private and are in fact actionable by abilities if players suspect something is up.

Thanks. Noted.

Do you think 4mask is actually an anti-town third-party/SK?

I don't have any compelling reason to believe 4mask is an SK, I was just pointing out that it was possibly consistent with their claim. Let's see how many kills there are at night!

notquitethere
What are we supposed to take away from the scumteam speculation? Wouldn't it have been better to do it on, say, D2 or D3 when we've had some flavour hints and possibly a dead scum team member, rather than on D1 when we don't? This early, it mostly strikes me as a distraction and a waste of time.

I think it's fine. His information isn't wrong and it's good to know (though I dislike the suspicious tone towards 4maskwolf and the unsuspicious tone towards TricMagic, feels manipulative). I'm more looking forward to their next post though.

About TricMagic:

In some games there is the "Townsperson" role, which is just vanilla townie.

I didn't intend that to be particularly unsuspicious towards Tric. As I said, some games have a townsperson. Many don't. Drawing any kind of attention to one's self unbidden is mildly town-sided, but baiting town watchers is scum-sided.


IcyTea

What are we supposed to take away from the scumteam speculation? Wouldn't it have been better to do it on, say, D2 or D3 when we've had some flavour hints and possibly a dead scum team member, rather than on D1 when we don't? This early, it mostly strikes me as a distraction and a waste of time.

I'm terribly sorry I provided useful information critical for playing this game as town a day earlier than strictly required. I could die this night and then how would I post this useful information? Who else is going to do the homework? I'm trying to right an information asymmetry between players that have played this game (who could be scum) and everyone else.

But look, let's follow this thought of yours. What event is scum!NQT distracting us from?

Jim

Didn't read the thread closely but NQT's big scum team breakdown is useful but I didn't see much in the way of scumhunting or declaring reads. I have found in previous games productive gestures like that scummy when absent of meaningful scumhunting.

Absolutely. I get this kind of pushback in every game where I provide information. People are always like "yeah but it's not scum reads". I'm a man for all seasons, I can do both. But I am beholden to the laws of time and space just like everyone else, so I usually can't do both simultaneously. This criticism will hold water if I do literally nothing else in the day other than be informative.

[TricMagic]

As a note, I seem to have eaten some bad chocolate, so a bit sick right now. Probably be fine tomorrow, but that's why I'm not going to be around tonight.

[TricMagic]

pushes NQT up from light blue/scum-lean to null/town[-lean status.

Night everyone. Please don't hammer during the night when I'm asleep? And would still want to see a Mamobo votecounting for those not voting.

[BluarianKnight]

Right - sorry for my absense, I'm rested and ready to actually put effort into this (as I probably should've first-post.)

BluarianKnight:  Now that it's over, I can say I semi-followed Vengeful 14 and noted your win there.  What did you learn from that game that you can immediately apply here, to this game and its situation right now?

Avoid barking up the same tree for too long - sometimes it's worth it swapping targets.

Also, I need to vote. It's a tool I didn't use - not even because I was scum! I was just generally afraid to use it..
Albeit, maybe I took that too far with this game;

Tric misunderstanding how an SK werebear works leads me to believe he's probably not one, he's just being a wolfy townie as usual.

Blue

I'm still under the impression Blue is Town, even if they're sheeping me, so I'm gonna need to see more than usual on that one. Secretdorf is a legit pick to go for, though, and I definitely see scum equity in it. Tric has done enough for me to not want to eliminate them today. What's your feel on Vector for w/w?

Honestly the sheeping you isn't wolfy so much as it is just weird, he's basically just parroting you word for word on me while expressing his own thoughts elsewhere and I'm not sure what to make of that. What I find wolfy there is his case on me and subsequent retraction. His post where he voted me felt very fake and like he was forcing anger and fire into his tone rather than genuinely believing his case, and his unvote was timed shortly after the thread started to move towards "okay the claim is probably more legit than we initially thought" with very little commentary other than that I'd "proved my point". Scum has more reason than town does not to want a survivor dead, so the quick unvote was a little weird in a bad way

I felt like I wasn't being pressuring enough - so I used my vote. I bandwagoned and let others lead me along last night, and I realized I probably should make a more legitimate claim before putting my vote out. It's why dropped my vote on you - I didn't have much of a claim, and my intuition told me on second-read you probably were town.

BluarianKnight:  Don't believe I've played a game with you.  How would you describe your playstyle in one sentence?

Wary but Thorough, that would be by non-weird answer.

I like this.

Sorry for the wait - let's do this. 

BluarianKnight: You're the only one here I haven't played with before. Should I consider you dangerous?

Unique choice of words - dangerous.
Yeah, I'd probably be someone to worry about, IcyTea31.

I don't like this.

Why are you claiming survivor D1?

Are you trying to win a death-wincon? Or just throwing people off your real scent?

Unvote.

4maskwolf.

I like this even less.

I've never played with you so I don't know if this is typical for you but you look like you're trying too hard.

I'm willing to believe 4mask for now, while his claim hurts us at night it does remove a lynch candidate for today.

What do you think, Vector? BK?

You two switched votes before even letting your original vote questions get answered.

I'm willing to give the benefit - I think he's proved his point.

Unvote.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh this makes me uneasy.

I was trying too hard at the time - again, didn't build a case, was terrible scumhunting practices I'll admit to now.
Also; parroting Web? Yeah, I did that too. I'll admit this now - I've got a bias on Web and Vector - both of them I highly respect, and I've tried to base my strategies off of their plays (wackiness + well researched posts). So, when I saw this;

BluarianKnight: I'll be completely honest in saying I've been watching them in Vengeful, but I'm very much a fan of this Blue Knight. I think they're a solid Townlean in spite of ToonyMan and 4maskwolf because they're defo Town.

I was definitely swayed by this  - I'll try to keep my bias off this, but I'm willing to admit fault.

BluarianKnight

IcyTea31 - Which person here would worry you the most of they were scum?

Definitely notquitethere. He's the type of player who's well capable of pulling a genealogical account of why I, my mother, and my mother's mother are all scum out of nowhere. Even though in that situation I'd know it was false, I'd have to do a similar amount of analysis and work to prove that to the other players.

IcyTea31 - His first questions had plenty that were, at least to me, too pointed and aggressive for scumhunting. Scumleaning.

First time I've been called scum for that, BluarianKnight. How do you scumhunt without asking pointed and aggressive questions?

Web gives me the opposite vibes - something's off - the buddying thing is sort of similar

Which buddying thing? Surely not the part where I opened my game with a joking accusation?

To the scumhunt;

There's a difference between asking pointed questions, and asking loaded questions - and you were asking the latter. It didn't feel like you were scumhunting - but trying to get any reason to twist folks words. That's at least my feeling on the matter - and it's why I put my vote to you at the beginning.

Also, as for the buddying thing;

BluarianKnight: I'll be completely honest in saying I've been watching them in Vengeful, but I'm very much a fan of this Blue Knight. I think they're a solid Townlean in spite of ToonyMan and 4maskwolf because they're defo Town.

This is what I meant. It was only a short scroll above the post you quoted from me.

So, another question to you, IcyTea - did you miss Web's post, or purposely ignore it?



Gonna do another post in a bit, with more questions to folks - but I just wanted to answer the questions aimed at me first. Let me know if I missed one - I genuinely might have missed a question, I did only a scroll through for my name.

[Mamobo]

Mamobo~~~ VOTE COUNT!
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf - 0 -
BluarianKnight - 2 - 4maskwolf*, IcyTea31*,
IcyTea31 - 2 - BluarianKnight*, notquitethere*,
Jim Groovester - 0 -
juicebox - 0 -
Luckyowl - 1 - Secretdorf*,
notquitethere - 1 - ToonyMan*,
Secretdorf - 1 - TricMagic*,
Toaster - 0 -
ToonyMan - 0 -
TricMagic - 1 - Toaster*,
Vector - 1 - webadict*,
webadict - 1 - Vector*,
No Lynch - 0 -

Not Voting - 3 - Luckyowl, juicebox, Jim Groovester,

7 to Hammer. Day ends on February 26, 2021 at 15:00 CST (~45 hours remaining).