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[webadict]

I realize that, but I'm still puzzled by webadict's opposition to it.

I get objecting to a plan on principle because if there is a game breaking plan to mechanically win the game then we might as well not be playing a game of mafia at all, but, you know, play to win.

BP3 was a bastard mod. Bastard mods are games where the best thing to do is the dumbest thing.

Wrong quote on this, but the point is that I refuse to go along with the plan, specifically because I think it isn't foolproof enough to commit to. Additionally, I'd be unable to be confirmed by it regardless, so if you want to do it, y'all can remove me from the loop and suspect me the whole time. Or vote me out. I'm gonna play the Day game because I don't really have much of a choice.

[mightymushroom]

So I've been thinking quietly.
Despite nomenclature as "The" Plan there have been a few different versions scattered about, with somewhat different assumptions about what we'd be doing while powers charge up.

I, too, am not convinced it's foolproof. I initially focused on conflicting flaws due to my own situation but there are some crazy profession actions the scum team could be trying. I'm not convinced it couldn't work, in some version of the world, with town outnumbering scum as we do and shields to keep us the rest of you safe.

This part of my earlier response was especially overwrought:

It forces me to follow whatever ToonyMan says instead of making my own judgments => Not Fun and Not What I Signed Up To Do
And I can't participate even if I shrugged all that off.

Obviously, I have already taken myself out of the loop. Thus I do not need to feel particularly constrained about taking someone else's orders.
It was an emotional response, and a foolish one.

I am assuming that as a forcible non-participant I won't get anyone handing a shield to me, either.
I see that leading to three likely outcomes:

• Scum kill me tonight as low hanging fruit.
• Scum doesn't kill me tonight because they have some other target also sitting out. But I don't have a shield and I don't see that the ability I can use confirms me to anyone.
• Scum doesn't kill me tonight because I am scum, which is something the rest of you all will surely be mindful of with regard to the second point and so far I only remember Nirur Torir clearly articulating a strict no lynch policy.

So although it's hard to find a mechanical reason to doubt the town utility of passing out shields, I hope you can understand why I find it risky on a personal level. It's one thing to know that I could be killed at almost any time, it's a little different to see it coming. To see it planned for by my ostensible allies, and me not consulted in the planning.

Too bad.

Knowing that town wins even if dead doesn't always make up for lack of people skills.

And beyond raw mechanics it also cuts off pretty much all other discussion. The proponents deliberately insist that it be so with this In or Out attitude. Despite more than 48 hours to go, plenty of time to push it as an alternative rather than an ultimatum. If this doesn't pull out enough information to make up for it you all owe me big time.

I'm gonna play the Day game because I don't really have much of a choice.

Great, but this is an unexpected situation for me. I'm stuck for ideas how to get people to engage when they don't care about my opinions or my vote -- in their minds the vote is already decided.

Well, let's hope tomorrow brings fresh voices. Night-night.

[Jim Groovester]

Now that I've thought about it for a touch longer I'm not completely sold on the plan since there are people who are mechanically incapable of following along and as the game goes on there will be more who can't follow since specializing in a role gains flaws. Unless I haven't thought it through completely it looks like it's destined to break down. I'm unbelievably tired right now so I won't rule out not thinking it through completely.

I like giving everybody shields on N1 so that part at least we should do anyway.

Jim Groovester, are you gonna carry me to victory?

If you're town, yeah.

Jim Groovester: What is the most common mistake a mafia player will make while pretending to be a member of the town? What tactic will the strongest mafia members apply the most, in your estimation?

Appearing inauthentic.

Appearing authentic.

The whole goal of scumhunting is to find out who believes what they're saying and who doesn't. Scum players who are very good at appearing authentic do well while those who are not are rooted out pretty quickly.

Honestly, I prefer reviewing the more mechanical hard facts before considering more social stuff. Which is probably why I don't play Mafia so often!

Not to pick at you but the mechanical stuff is easy to think through while the social aspects are more difficult and more necessary.

Saying you'll focus on the mechanical stuff means you're not going to be contributing much, which gives me concern about you.

Ok, Egan_BW, I actually do think you're on the scumteam. Not voting people 'cuz they're scary is a classic inexperienced scum thing.

Third vote on the bandwagon? I'm shaking my head.

I'm inclined to agree with this but I don't get the impression that Egan_BW was being completely serious with his comment.

It does raise my eyebrows a bit more about him though.

Jim Groovester: I didn't think you'd play again after the BYOR 15 effort thing. What's your game plan to win while avoiding burning out here?

CAN'T KEEP ME DOWN

I don't know emulate my play from ten years ago where I actually gave a crap about playing seriously.

FLOWERMAIDEN! Assassins, and to a lesser extent Doge and Thieves(On the first time before shields show up) can bypass such actions And level 2 Merchants can give out a Duel ability, which shields would stop from occurring, so you'd protect the mafia.. Monks can also delay an action so this plan has been flaed from the start Toonyman


I'd place the mafia team as Toonyman, Caz, and one other. No lynching day 1 offers no info to town.

Everyone who disagrees with The Plan must volunteer to get lynched, no backsies

Go die on a sword heretic. I already did so last game. Pretty easy way to get rid of town right?

I'm bothered by this post since it seems like a lot more emotional opposition to the plan than it really deserves.

Jim Groovester: Should you claim if your lover is about to be lynched?

My gut feeling was 'nah' but the more I thought about it I realized it could really screw over the town if everybody else doesn't have that information.

Caz: Why haven't you written that essay yet?

WRITE YOUR ESSAY

I have a flaw. I'm a lover with Jim Groovester. It doesn't affect the plan.

If Jim is town I dare mafia to try to kill him.

It'll be a pleasure dying with you on N1.

And that's just nonsense.
Nirur Torir is talking about using the Monk lvl.5 ability, how did you get to using monks D2?
And I assume you mean the Surveyor lvl.2 ability, because the surveyor lvl.1 isn't confirmable on the receiver's end thus way to easy to mess with. Only you're forcing everyone to get Merchant today, so the soonest you can guarantee people to have Surveyor lvl.2 is Night 3.

This is sounding more and more half-baked at best -- not thinking ahead, so pleased by your own cleverness.
It forces me to follow whatever ToonyMan says instead of making my own judgments => Not Fun and Not What I Signed Up To Do
And I can't participate even if I shrugged all that off.
You gonna lynch me over it, I suppose?

I get not liking the plan but this comes across as a lot more annoyed about it than I feel is warranted.

Great, but this is an unexpected situation for me. I'm stuck for ideas how to get people to engage when they don't care about my opinions or my vote -- in their minds the vote is already decided.

Well, let's hope tomorrow brings fresh voices. Night-night.

You're playing up the defeatism and defensiveness waaaaaaay more than you should be.

[Vector]

OK, pretty sure this is Town!Jim Groovester. Thanks!

[Secretdorf]

Some RVS answers...

Webadict: Toonyman

Toonyman: You telling me I broke the 5 year record.

FallacyofUrist: Very useful indeed as I would have guessed 4.

Nirur torir: The dorfiest profession in this game is fool necromancer, of course.

Mightymushroomhelmetman: If they got anything of value, they should.

Caz: I have no experience being scum but we'll see...

[notquitethere]

One of the guildsmen comes up with a cunning plan to show loyalty to the council: a ponzi scheme in which everyone buys shields and then sells them on to one another. It's foolproof! Well, not literally Fool-proof. But who knows if the Clown Guild are present anyway?

Official Vote Count
------------------------
Caz - 0 -
Egan_BW - 0 -
FallacyofUrist - 1 - webadict*,
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Juicebox - 0 -
LuckyOwl - 0 -
mightymushroom - 1 - Nirur Torir*,
Nirur Torir - 0 -
Secretdorf - 0 -
Toaster - 0 - 
ToonyMan - 3 - TricMagic*, Secretdorf*, Egan_BW*,
TricMagic - 0 -
Vector - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
No Lynch - 3 - ToonyMan*, Caz*, FallacyofUrist*,


8 to Hammer.

[webadict]

OK, pretty sure this is Town!Jim Groovester. Thanks!

Willing to agree. I also am gonna point at MM and say do not Eliminate. What they say sounds authentic enough to not worry about it Today. Also agree with most points Jim brings up.

Look, if you don't agree with the plan, then scumhunt. And if you do agree with the plan, then scumhunt!

[Caz]

OK, pretty sure this is Town!Jim Groovester. Thanks!

Willing to agree. I also am gonna point at MM and say do not Eliminate. What they say sounds authentic enough to not worry about it Today. Also agree with most points Jim brings up.

Look, if you don't agree with the plan, then scumhunt. And if you do agree with the plan, then scumhunt!

What do you think of Tric's objections to the plan vs mightymushrooms objections?

[webadict]

OK, pretty sure this is Town!Jim Groovester. Thanks!

Willing to agree. I also am gonna point at MM and say do not Eliminate. What they say sounds authentic enough to not worry about it Today. Also agree with most points Jim brings up.

Look, if you don't agree with the plan, then scumhunt. And if you do agree with the plan, then scumhunt!

What do you think of Tric's objections to the plan vs mightymushrooms objections?

I felt how Jim felt.  It felt like Tric was attempting to find a hole in the plan no matter what, as opposed to simply acknowledging that the plan is simply flawed. I think having to point out the specific ways the plan is broken is silly. Just acknowledge that it merely is, and move on with it. mightymushroom had a solid post, and I think that gives them town equity.

I believe that there are too many variables to account for, and thus we should be Daygaming. You can't tell me that the plan is foolproof because that's a straight lie.

[Secretdorf]

Unvote. Toonyman's and caz's plan sounds good. Imagine no one being killed and lvl 5 in every profession with D30 or something. Straying too far, eh.

I have no such flaw.

[ToonyMan]

PFP

Busy. Bigger post in a few hours.

[TricMagic]

I have been focusing on power roles since I saw the potential of Medium to allow the gathering of info. And well, it is a flawed plan. With multiple versions which one are we going for? Trying to coordinate everyone is going to be a bit hel-ish. And it really doesn't solve the lack of doctor-healing to deal with poison as an example. So I really don't trust Toonyman. I'll go with it, but under duress. And lynch him at the first opportunity if he's lying.

[webadict]

Things people should do as Town:
Eliminate scum.

Things people are trying to do:
Make a plan that tables eliminating scum until... never.

[ToonyMan]

@Nirur Torir:

It needs to be everyone playing. It can't be a secondary circle.

Why?
We know there will be defectors, why not let people defect in public, take them out of it, and let everyone else be shielded?

Forcing every mafia member into the shield circle makes them have to play along (and give a kill protect to a townie), or not play along and out themselves as mafia.

Shields don't stop a player from being lynched, this only benefits town.

Allowing any players to act outside the circle means that if at least one outsider is a mafia member they can perform the kill while the remaining mafia members play along in the shield circle.


@Vector:

Is this the same webadict who advocated for the mass suicide N1 strategy in BP3 even though that was an even less foolproof plan?
I'm still catching up on the details but this puzzles me.

Toony is actually the progenitor of this plan.

While I would love to credit for the part of the plan that most people agree with, Caz said it first.

So I think Caz is pretty likely town.

Night 1 is pretty locked in.

What we decide to do after Night 1 is still up in the air, but we can discuss it on Day 2. A combination of Monks and Surveyors is sounding good to me, preventing a mafia Ban strategy from working.


@Jim:

Now that I've thought about it for a touch longer I'm not completely sold on the plan since there are people who are mechanically incapable of following along and as the game goes on there will be more who can't follow since specializing in a role gains flaws. Unless I haven't thought it through completely it looks like it's destined to break down. I'm unbelievably tired right now so I won't rule out not thinking it through completely.

I like giving everybody shields on N1 so that part at least we should do anyway.

You're right. This round robin shield plan will only really hold for the first few nights. Players are more likely to get debilitating flaws as the Days go on.

I think after we all give each other shields on Night 1 we can proceed to spam actions everywhere to detect and stop kills while leveling up to Monk 5 and Surveyor 5 (also Spy 2 and Doctor 2). Combine this with some solid day play and we will completely root out the scum.


@Webadict:

Things people are trying to do:
Make a plan that tables eliminating scum until... never.

Nope. We're turning Day 1/Night 1 into hell for scum and then we'll pick them off one by one starting Day 2 once we've bulked up.

If scum choose not to kill and all of them play along, then we completely denied the use of their mafiakill and they also won't be allowed to kill anybody Night 1. And it's not even a loss for town since we'll all get kill protects.


I'll have an update to The Plan next.

[ToonyMan]

With multiple versions which one are we going for?

Night 1 is determined. I'll have details shortly with some updates.

It won't be as easy moving forward, but I would hard suspect anybody not working towards a pro-town profession. We're forcing mafia to either out themselves by building up an anti-town kill build or to solely rely on their shitty mafiakill which we can detect and prevent from working.