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[SaberToothTiger]

Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Goliath (0):
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): SaberToothTiger
Vengeance (0):
Council member support troops (0):

I believe that we shoud use the revision token for the Phoenix pods instead of using the design phase on a new interceptor. Our main problem in the air is the fact that our missiles are being bamboozled out of the air and the pods not having enough firepower to compensate. A revision phase would be enough to fix that flaw in the pods, I believe.

[Strongpoint]

The RX-Drone will cost points, and be mutually exclusive (and thus be a replacement) to some degree with Ravens. Thus, it should be a better air-combatant per point than the Raven, or it's not worth designing.

By that logic new transport is also a replacement of Raven. They use same VP points. The whole idea of new vehicles filling slightly different niches is too give us tactical flexibility in production depending on what kind of mission\enemy we face. Also, different designs are harder to counter for the enemy. Let's say they go anti-pilot psionic, they counter both old and new fighters.

Also, there are such thing as quality of rolls. Sure, we want to get thing that is better than a straight better Raven. Literally any fighter that will roll 8 will send Ravens to hangars forever. Low-mediocre rolls are a different story. Getting replacement of about the same strength as replaced design is very inefficient. Getting a design that is specialized in different things can be very useful even if it is roughly as good as one before it.

I would be open to doing council member support troops, but as a revision.

It is an option but I am not sure that revision will give a big enough impact

Our main problem in the air is the fact that our missiles are being bamboozled out of the air and the pods not having enough firepower to compensate. A revision phase would be enough to fix that flaw in the pods, I believe.

Our main problem in the air is the fact that our fighters die to fast. Making slightly better railguns won't fix that. We need numbers, armor, agility, decent long range weapons.


If majority wants direct replacement of our current fighters... Here is my Raven II proposal

Sparrow (2 alien equipment, 1 Nav Computer)
Sparrow is the second generation X-COM fighter. It is much shorter and narrower than Raven and built with speed and maneuverability in mind. It's single pulse detonation engine is similar to one of the ones used on Raven fighter but it comes with elerium turbocharger system that adds tiny amount of raw elerium into the detonation chamber giving substantiation boost to power in combat situations. It has a fixed forward facing railgun wich is basically a longer version of Phoenix pod that goes from the tail to nose of the aircraft and this allows far high firing velocity than regular Phoenix. It still can carry missiles but its payload is limited to two of them on hardpoints located near the tip of wings Its electronics are partially based on alien computer system are even more advanced than one used on Raven. Sparrow's Computer system linked to pilot's helmet assist railgun aiming and provides important information about trajectory of incoming plasma blobs (Behavior of plasma is thoroughly studied on smaller scale by testing captured pistols) to assist dodging.


Here is my idea of a revision of Avalanche should we go for a design that saves tokens

Avalanche II (1 equipment token, 1 nav computer token
Avalanche II has two improvements. Its electronic is upgraded with alien derived systems and its warhead has added ellerium for a much more powerful blast.

Look, 2 out of 12 missiles hit their targets. It is not that bad. Make it 4 out 12 and increase the punch and result would  be very different. But we need to save tokens to make this revision possible. This is why I am voting for a design that spend unit token. Phoenix are great as weapon for Skyrangers but I prefer Ravens\future fighters starting the fight on long range.

Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Goliath (0):
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): SaberToothTiger
Vengeance (0):
Council member support troops (1): strongpoint
Sparrow:

I believe that additional infantry is very useful for land battles. While it can be done as a revision, I think it should be design because it tries
a) Improve their ability to fight with aliens\cooperate with X-COM
b) Improve their deployment
c) Reduce their cost

Three different things are hard to improve by revision

[Happerry]

I consider the Landslide a bad idea because it should just have a normal warhead. If we want a plasma gun for our planes we should try to design a plasma gun for our planes. The Armagedden, as has been mentioned, tries to do way to much in one go. The Lightning, on the other hand, is a better design but I consider the utter lack of missiles as a mistake. As for the Council member support troops, I don't consider that super urgent right now because they already cost a unit point. Any major improvement will probably increase their cost, and we still only have 3 UP so if we do end up increasing their cost we might well find that they're unaffordable to deploy in the first place. If we just want to get it working globally then it shouldn't take a design.

I'm not completely sold on the Visor system, and would prefer either to do the base building action again or try to design some Alloy Armor, but the Visor should be useful enough against the stealth aliens and will also hopefully be useful later on against bigger nastier aliens when we can revise it to highlight their weak points. As such, I'm voting for the Tactical Awareness Visor.

Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Goliath (0):
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): SaberToothTiger, Happerry
Vengeance (0):
Council member support troops (1): strongpoint
Sparrow:

[Strongpoint]

I consider the Landslide a bad idea because it should just have a normal warhead. If we want a plasma gun for our planes we should try to design a plasma gun for our planes.

Well, I kinda agree with Landslide warhead is too fancy to really work. It is one of my early offers and I don't even consider voting for it. Not that version with normal warhead is hard to write. (but I think avalanche revision is far more cost effective)
On other hand we "can just design a plasma gun" goes against the spirit of this. It makes a one shot weapon that melts down itself.

I don't consider that super urgent right now because they already cost a unit point. Any major improvement will probably increase their cost, and we still only have 3 UP so if we do end up increasing their cost we might well find that they're unaffordable to deploy in the first place.

Ehm? What? Increase their cost? How? My design tries to reduce the cost  to fractions of UP and\or get "free" UP points. I go for designs exactly because I want lover cost, better deployment and better performance wrapped in one package.

UP represent our ability to train and field troops. This design is all about training and getting an access to larger pool of recruits. In some way I am designing new recruits unit.

Inter Agency Cooperation team is a useless unit in its current form. Aereal reconnaissance program is of very marginal usefulness, too. But both represent elements of a "cooperating with armed forces tech tree" I think we should build on it and make them more useful.

I really dislike going for HUD  because
1) It will, very likely, cost EP and we are quite short on those already. Choosing between XF and HUD isn't fun at all.
2) Our alien equipment token doesn't offer have a good synergy with it so we have to use it on some revision like? Will we just keep it there for later? Looks inefficient for me
3) Nav computer token gives some synergy, but, I think, there are things that will benefit more from Nav computer parts more


One more idea
Trophy team, 2x alien equipment token, unit experience token
History of wars has many examples of captured equipment being useful against the enemy. It is even more true when enemy is technologically superior. Special subdivision of NOTSOFTER specializes on using captured alien weapon against former users.

[Happerry]

I don't consider that super urgent right now because they already cost a unit point. Any major improvement will probably increase their cost, and we still only have 3 UP so if we do end up increasing their cost we might well find that they're unaffordable to deploy in the first place.

Ehm? What? Increase their cost? How? My design tries to reduce the cost  to fractions of UP and\or get "free" UP points. I go for designs exactly because I want lover cost, better deployment and better performance wrapped in one package.

UP represent our ability to train and field troops. This design is all about training and getting an access to larger pool of recruits. In some way I am designing new recruits unit.

They already only cost 1 point, and given that they aren't limited to a Skyranger or other transport to deploy there's no way they're going down to 0, because that'd let us spam infinite amounts of them at any battlezone within their access range. While increasing the area in which they can be deployed probably won't change the cost, the design attempts to make them better at the same time it makes them cheaper as well as increasing the area. At best, they'll stay as 1 cost units, but it's more likely that they'll end up going up in cost if they becoming notably more effective.

I also doubt that fractional costs are going to be a thing, anyway. At best, we'd end up with something like the Phoenix pods, where we get more then one for one point, but that'd probably need a very good role on an action focused on making them cheaper, not an action trying to go for better and cheaper and more widely appliable all at once.

Basically, I find that that attempted action attempts to do three things at once, two of which are pulling in the opposite directions, and therefor do not believe it will work usefully.

I really dislike going for HUD  because
1) It will, very likely, cost EP and we are quite short on those already. Choosing between XF and HUD isn't fun at all.
2) Our alien equipment token doesn't offer have a good synergy with it so we have to use it on some revision like? Will we just keep it there for later? Looks inefficient for me
3) Nav computer token gives some synergy, but, I think, there are things that will benefit more from Nav computer parts more

In all honesty I dislike basically every suggestion this turn, and would really prefer to go for a base to get more points, or go for some sort of unit class with the EXP token just because I really want to find out how they'll actually work so I can actually make proper cost assessments on them, but unlike half of the proposed designs here the Visor only uses up one token instead of all or half of them on one design, directly counters the Ethereal's newest monster, is easily revisable later to point out weak spots in any enemy giant robots first or to highlight the psi using aliens first, and the ability to see aliens through walls is no small benefit in and of itself anyway given how many objects our railguns should be able to shoot through and still kill a sectoid on the other side.

[Strongpoint]

They already only cost 1 point, and given that they aren't limited to a Skyranger or other transport to deploy there's no way they're going down to 0, because that'd let us spam infinite amounts of them at any battlezone within their access range. While increasing the area in which they can be deployed probably won't change the cost, the design attempts to make them better at the same time it makes them cheaper as well as increasing the area. At best, they'll stay as 1 cost units, but it's more likely that they'll end up going up in cost if they becoming notably more effective.

GM can go - they cost 1VP but you get a token like effect for them as long as action is happen in a country that didn't left X-COM. No infinite amounts. Or many other options.

I also doubt that fractional costs are going to be a thing, anyway. At best, we'd end up with something like the Phoenix pods, where we get more then one for one point

I don't understand your logic here. Phoenix proves that there are fractional costs. If we had 1\3EP equipment for infantry the last turn than we would use it.

Basically, I find that that attempted action attempts to do three things at once, two of which are pulling in the opposite directions, and therefor do not believe it will work usefully.

Improving three thing at once are bad for revisions. For designs? Why not?. We are creating a new thing. New thing can be better in everything comparing to the old thing.



___________
New idea

Missile design to win back our skies. It may be an overinvestment but... They may feel secure about our missiles, go for anti-rail gun thing this turn... And get a nasty surprise.

Rockfall (2 alien equipment tokens, 1 nav computer
Rockfall is the second generation of X-COM air to air missile. It uses elerium-based additives both to warhead
(increasing the power of the blast) and fuel (giving it more speed). It's on board electronics is a mix of Human and alien computer systems made to be extremely resistant against any imaginable ECM. It's guidance system is fine tuned to detect sources of Elerium and target them, especially power elements used in plasma batteries. Such sensors are made possible by intensive studying of infantry sized plasma weaponry and extrapolating the data for larger plasma weapons[/b]

We'll get a faster missile, with a better ECM, better warhead and one that targets key components. We shoot missiles from the long range, damage their plasma guns go in and finish the job with rilguns. Far better than current battles. This uses all tokens and I think it is important. For revision we can do something unit related.

[Strongpoint]

Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): SaberToothTiger, Happerry
Council member support troops (1): strongpoint
Rockfall missile (1): strongpoint

Removed all zero votes things, one can always add it back voting for it. Voting for two different thing as both fit my general strategy (either use all tech tokens on design and unit token on revision or use unit token on design, tech tokens on revision) I believe that both are good short term way to improve our power with an addition of useful knowledge for future related designs. (numerous possible cooperation projects with squad, fuels\elerium explosives for the missile)

My thoughts on stuff that got votes

Armageddon: Ludicrous difficulty expected.

Lightning Interceptor: Anti-grav is too early for my tastes. Abandoning missiles seems wrong. As it intentionally tries to avoid EP by going integrated I expect higher VP cost comparing to Raven. Making it not very flexible for going for different missions should they go for more than one.

Landslide Missile: It is my early draft of new missile, I consider Rockfall to be a better option

Tactical Awareness Visor: This isn't a bad thing to have. Yet I think it is perfectly designable without alien nav computer token. I find it a viable option but prefer to go other directions for now. This is a nice design for the time when we'll have no tokens or have parts of their scout drone.

Few ideas I am not writing detailed description but may consider voting for if I'll like someones's else offer
-Long Range radar to be installed in X-COM base
-Dedicated sniper infantry unit
-Tank with Phoenix as main armament, preferably with ground to air capability
-Elerium boosted grenades
-Means of capturing alive sectoids
-Anything that uses all three tokens in a logical way.

[Thanatos Russ]

Use the tokens to make a massive leap ahead into something to make sure you don't need to invest more research into it for a while.

The octopi are a big threat that needs to be resolved, however atm numbers can counter that okay. Actually, just space your dudes out more so they can only take one squad on at a time melee.

I would suggest making a much improved interceptor.

[Strongpoint]

I am ready to support fighter that doesn't have anti-grav, puts a good use of at least two tokens, either uses missiles or have a really good reason of being unable to. Bonus if it is not a better copy of Raven.

On other hand I believe that ground to air or air to air missiles are better solution to air superiority problem. Also, I believe that grunts that need no Skykangers to be deployed can be extremely useful, but our current form is useless. Even if we'll hav a mission in Europe\North America, we'll have little reason to go for NOTSOFTER + cooperation teams instead of going NOTSFOTER all the way.

Yet another idea

Colibri (1 nav computer token, 2 alien equipment tokens)
Colibri is a light one engine fighter jet designed for short range dogfighting. It is small as possible and very nimble. It is closer to WW2 fighter in its mentality and design philosophy than to modern missile using fighters like Raven. It's main armament is a Phoenix derived railgun going from the tail to the nose. It's secondary armament is two wing mounted 20mm automatic cannons coming with HEAP bullets boosted with elerium to make them more explosive (1 alien equipment token). Additionally it can carry two standard missiles on it's wingtips. Colibri's electronics suite is compact and effective being partly based on alien technology (1 nav computer token), Electronics include system that allows to detect concentrations of Elerium (1 alien equipment token) in alien aircrafts to easily target crucial subsystems of UFOs or spot ground targets. Target cost is 1 to 1.5 VP

You can ask why auto-cannons instead of successful Phoenix pods? Better rate of fire, lover cost, smaller size, better for strafing. If I go two Phoenix pods, that means it can carry as much as Raven and it means it has greater payload, while I want an opposite to be true. Also, I am worried that enemy may go for small combat drones at some point, sniping those with railgun will be extremely hard. Essentially Colibri is a flying railgun, secondary armament is exactly that: secondary armament.

Anyone likes this design enough to vote for it?

[Happerry]

I am 100% unwilling to blow basically all of our tokens on one design when we can't depend on getting more of them with any amount of reliability.

[Strongpoint]

I am 100% unwilling to blow basically all of our tokens on one design when we can't depend on getting more of them with any amount of reliability.

I have an opposite opinion. Not spending tokens equals to not investing them. Sure, if you have revision\next turn design plan that needs some specific token saved then it is fine to delay their use but hoarding resource just in case is plain wrong.

BTW, enemy just got one unrestricted token + something. It is not the time to go slow.

[Blood_Librarian]

Adjusted the Armageddon to be slightly more reasonable. I removed the downward facing bomb system, added more missile points, and removed the nose weapon, this should make it a far easier piece of equipment to make.

Armagedden Intercepter (v3) (1 Alien Equipment, 1 Alien Nav Computer)

Simply put, the Armagedden is designed for the interception of alien aircraft and dealing with their landers.

For one, the propulsion and fuel have been modified to exclusively use "low"-yield Elerium (Which is still far more energy dense then jet fuel.), This modified fuel mix allows a higher flight ceiling, acceleration, and maximum speed, along with a higher tonnage increase without compromising its superior maneuverability.

In addition to its 8 Missile mountings, it has a single integrated turret on the bottom of its fuselage, slightly below the center of mass.  The integrated weapon is a railgun "turret". designed to either be used by the gunnery control pilot, the railgun is connected to a comparatively vast computer system that allows the weapon to make precision shots against both tailing enemy aircraft or ground targets with merciless precision. This weapon has 360 rotation and can target pursuing UFO's as long as its "underneath" the aircraft.

In addition to its weapons, the craft is built to be durable.  From the ground up, it has been built with either alien materials or traditional materials that have shown the most resistance to enemy weapons. The crafts unique structural composition in addition to the surgical procedures committed to the pilot has resulted in a craft and pilot able to handle High G maneuvers, acceleration, and other detrimental effects.

In short, the craft has a dozen advantages over the Raven.

• Elerium propulsion
• Integrated weaponry- Turret
• Superior construction and structure

Armageddon (v3) (1):Blood_librarian
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): SaberToothTiger, Happerry
Council member support troops (1): strongpoint
Rockfall missile (1): strongpoint

Edit: Removed the entire bit about implants.

[Strongpoint]

I am still not voting for Armagedden because

1) Improved jet fuel is trying to solve issue that is not there. We are not losing in speed. Also, token helps but it doesn't apply that well
2) Turrets kill aerodynamics. Central mounted railgun is too good to dismiss
3) I don't believe in durability against plasma for jet powered aircraft that has to be light. If we want to build a flying tank we'll have to wait till we mimic alien propulsion
4) Implant stuff is still complex enough to be a separate design

Armageddon (v2) (1):Blood_librarian
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): SaberToothTiger, Happerry
Colibri (1): strongpoint

I decided to switch my vote for an airforce. With them getting unrestricted token, there are is a very high chance that they will field more UFOs. I am not comfortable sending one raven to... let's say two fighter + lander groups. We need to improve our punch in the air. Missile are an option, too but I prefer VP using stuff to EP using stuff.

Why I think that Colibri is a way to go to win back skies?

1) It tries to be cheap, giving us flexibility in VP distribution.
2) It helps future infantry techs - elerium explosives and elerium detection sensors (that can be integrated in HUD)
3) It is decent for strafing and ground support, roles that other proposals (including my alternative aircrafts) can't do well
4) It is usable against possible enemy in form of small combat drones. In the same time its long railgun gives it decent change against larger, better armored UFOs
5) It can work together with a future flying anti-grav tank we will build sometime later. If we go for some kick-ass 4VP machine of death we may still need a way to capture lone scouts
6) It's elerium detection ability can be useful against tricks like UFOs invisible in visible light
7) Elerium detection thing can be also use in future improved radar design

_________
I also have a question to ones who vote for TAV. How do you plan to get EP for it? Last turn we used 2EP on aircraft weapons, 2EP on railguns. What is your plan if TAV costs... at least 0.5 EP? Get rid of aircraft weapons? Send less NOTSOFTER? Send NOTSOFTER units with TAV but no railguns? Imagine if we had 0.5EP cost HUD, what would you change in our last mission plan?

[SaberToothTiger]

We don't need to flood our enemy with troops if we can use superior range, accuracy, firepower and recon. We could spare sending oen squad with standard gear and equip two squads with the TAV if it costs 0,5 EP. This would mean that the railgun-toting squad would be even more devastating, as the difficult ballistics would be taken care of by the HUD.

[Blood_Librarian]

Increased speed is not fixing an issue, it's making a boon. if we could catch them while they are comming down from orbit, we are in an advantage. increased speed gives us that advantage. I will admit that the implants are a little too much, but that inherent boost in information processing is too good to dismiss. With turrets, we can commit to evasive maneuvering that takes advantage of our speed to avoid hits while still dealing damage,  something a centrally mounted rail gun can never do. It also paves the way for mroe superior magnetic weaponry as well as other posibilities.

When I say durable, I obviously meant Durable for an Aircraft. I never stated that I wanted a tank with wings, I wanted an aircraft that was  more durable then the Raven by using alien alloys in our construction techniques, while still being more manuverable/etc then the Raven. Using alien alloys obviously helps, since again, centuries worth of technological advanced in metal bricks that we pried off downed UFO's.