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[Strongpoint]

I plan to revise more accurate missiles this revision phase, personally

You won't get a vote for me. Revision like that with nav computer token would have sense. Revision like that with no token achieves very little. Revision (or design) of a missile with 2-3 tokens could do something substantiation, what you propose will make ineffective weapon slightly less ineffective and will be further negated by their own revision should they wish.

it's better to focus on one thing at a time to get a good thing we can use later on instead of trying for three different advances and getting meh results that we'll probably have to spend more tokens on later.

You get me confused here. Like very confused. It is not like we are rolling for every advance separately, token(s) gives bonus(es) to the whole design. What meh results are you talking about? 8+three tokens = monster, 2+three tokens = still works. You get mediocre results if you spend only one token per time, not it if you invest then in one thing

For example I'll likely won't vote for Colibri-like next turn, without the nav com token (even if I like 95% sure that it will be "we need a fighter now" turn and it will be a bandwagon), I want fighter that will be clearly better than Raven in one or several areas, without heap of tokens I see no way to guarantee that. One thing that I dislike in the winning vote: HUD takes a token nav computer token, while, IMO, having only glancing synergy for targeting system, nav computer is perfect for a fighter or any kind of drone or UFO detection system.

'spend one point, get three' arrangement.

Even that is unaffordable. One point get three will force us to send only one NOTSOFTER with XHs or leave Skyrangers with no pods, or leave Ravens with no pods. Every option looks awful. I can very well see the situation when we'll get HUD and opt to not using it this turn.

[Happerry]

I think this comes down to having a different mental picture of how things work and what the odds are on things then each other, because you seem to be talking nonsense to me half the time and it sounds like I seem that way to you.

[Strongpoint]

OK. How do you think tokens even work? I think they give bonus to design effectiveness, the more you use, the bigger the bonus. What is your opinion? do you think that if you use more than one it still gives bonus equal to using one?

Spoiler: reference for tokens (click to show/hide)

 Mission Success : Loot : 1 VP token, 1 Alien Alloy Token, 1 Alien equipment token

Explanation : VP tokens can be applied to anything that uses VP. You then get 1 VP of that thing for free, every turn. The alien Alloy and equipment tokens can be applied to design and revisions to get a bonus, provided it is relevant.

Anyway I am waiting for the roll. At least it will get TAV out of the way in future turns. It is one of those designs that part of the thread wants from the turn 1 caring little about available resources or current tactical situation. It will pop up again and again until voted.

[Cnidaros]

I believe that we will forever be oscillating in this space of winning and losing in the ground and air on alternate turns. Right now we're behind in the air and slightly ahead on the ground. But I don't believe that falling doubly behind in the air will still allow our troops to reach the fight unmolested, most likely we'll take some losses as our Skyrangers get shot down (as the aliens take losses from losing the air battle). So I'm voting for the fighter design.

But the TAV is also quite good this turn as a counter to their mimic-murder octopuses, which seem to be quite powerful. Furthermore I think it could have synergy with a revision for a 'sniper' unit class, using the TAV to reliably pick off disguised targets from range, as our railguns can penetrate cover and the mimic-murder octopuses seem limited to melee only.

Ultimately the better option depends on what the enemy picks. If they go for an air design, we should go for the Colibri to ensure we don't fall doubly behind, whereas if they go for a ground design we should go for the TAV, as the air is currently in a situation where we can still reach the fight safely and we want our ground combat to improve and meet theirs, hopefully resulting in the same situation as this turn's battle. However, absent that information, I'll err on the side of caution and vote for the Colibri. If the enemy goes for a ground design, we will then have switched sides and be winning in the air and losing on the ground.

Also, Happerry, I disagree with your opinion about using all three tokens on one design. In my view, we will never reach the point where we are guaranteed a stable supply of tokens. Us getting tokens depends on winning the fight, which in turn relies on whether we roll good designs, which is influenced by tokens. I think spending them on a single design is better than cautiously hoping for more tokens, which we are less likely to get without token-boosted designs.

Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (3): SaberToothTiger, Happerry, Blood_librarian
Colibri (2): strongpoint, Cnidaros

Final thoughts from re-reading the battle report: why did the aliens set down in the central plaza? Sounds like a terror mission where subtlety is ignored, but then the murder-mimic octopuses don't seem to be very effective as terror units, which shouldn't be disguised for more terror. Also, what's 'the gift'? Psionics? But the battle report doesn't mention any of our men getting subverted.

Also, this just makes the ground-air battle thing more confusing. As I read it, it seems like our two Ravens were defeated by two alien fighters, while three Phoenix-Skyrangers shot down the landing UFO for one loss. But then the remaining two Skyrangers were able to stay and provide close air support, whereas the alien fighters ... just buggered off back home without shooting down our Skyrangers? Unless they were too damaged to shoot down our Skyrangers, which seems unlikely, or ran out of ammo. This seems to indicate the ground and air battles are more disconnected than we believe, perhaps making the TAV a better option.

Seems like it may be worth a revision to reverse-engineer alien grenades if we're going to be doing more urban missions in future, which also gets us in to researching elerium explosives.

[10ebbor10]

Also, what's 'the gift'? Psionics? But the battle report doesn't mention any of our men getting subverted.

Huh. Whoops. You were not supposed to have that sentence.

whereas the alien fighters ... just buggered off back home without shooting down our Skyrangers? Unless they were too damaged to shoot down our Skyrangers, which seems unlikely, or ran out of ammo.

My error in description. Battles occured simultanously not sequentially. Your Ravens suggested in keeping the enemy away long enough.

[10ebbor10]

Design: Tactical Awareness Visor (Alien Nav Computer)
Designed to be able to be equipped by itself or embedded in any helmet, the TAV is an Augmented Reality HUD for our troops. The TAV is a transparent visor that displays images on itself with the illusion of them being physical objects in the real world - "augmented reality".

Using numerous small cameras - such as infrared, visible, and the like - combined with a small integrated computer, the TAV can help our operatives' awareness in the field. The main use is target recognition. Through heat, shape, sound, and more interesting techniques like looking for the pulses of living beings, the TAV can very reliable detect anything it judges as a living or relevant entity. These entities are highlighted based on familiarity - fellow operatives get green (no rookies shooting other rookies), humans get blue, unknowns get yellow, and confirmed threats get red. In addition to very easy recognizing of targets, the varied cameras ensure that it works regardless of visibility - NO MORE NIGHT MISSIONS the aliens can't hide in the dark. The highlighting also works behind walls and other obstructions in case something like the sound sensor picks up movement out of sight. There are also indicators if any movement/beings are detected behind/to the side of the wearer.

This iteration of the TAV has something different - the implementation of tech originating from the alien navigation computer. It turns out the aliens have some pretty advanced computing systems; especially with target recognition. By using human-alien computing in the TAV, we can do an impressive array of things. The enhanced targeting should do wonders, immediately recognizing any potential targets. Immediate identification of weakpoints. Predictive targeting ("the alien is likely going to be here by the time you press the trigger"). Battlefield analysis of any targets or UFOs or anything. Detecting disguised aliens. Easy medical analysis of any being. And much more.

It also has other functions deemed relevant like current mission objective, the status of any networked devices (like "ammo in gun"), radio status, and anything else deemed relevant. But the main feature is target recognition and highlighting, which should greatly help in any case; especially against a stealthy and unknown foe.

While not necessary for operation, the TAVs can share data with each other - so if your TAV-equipped squadmate can see something, you can see it (highlighted) too. The TAV also displays the vital signs of allies based on their own vital sensors and the estimated condition of aliens based on their pulse.

Normal : 1 + 1 (Utter Failure) : Token Used [You guys do not have much luck, do you...]

Initially thought very promising, the TAV project proceeded with leaps and bounds. Running the entire recognition and analysis system on captured alien hardware for a performant and effective system, that performed near perfect in almost all tests. Unfortunately, the last group test ended in tragedy. While the details are limited, the end results are dramatic. It appears that the soldiers equipped with the TAV went on a rampage, destroying the lab, it's notes and then the prototypes. Why they did this, we do not know, as they themselves expired shortly thereafter from severe brain damage.

With most of the project destroyed (and the rest suspect), we can not deploy the TAV. However, we gained some experience with alien computing.

Spoiler: Technology (click to show/hide)

Vehicles

Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders.   Cost :   2  VP
      - Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles

Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP    [1 Free Skyranger available]
 
Equipment

Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0

XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1

Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0

BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0

Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3


Training Program

Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.

NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.

Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point    [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]

Mission Profiles

Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.

Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.

Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.

XCOM Resources

Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.

6 VP
3 UP
4 EP

2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Unit experience Token

Spoiler: PANIC METER (click to show/hide)

Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria

Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan

Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom

North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States

South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil   X

Revision Phase

Turn 5

AABBCCDD

[Strongpoint]

*facepalms* I was too optimistic expecting that TAV will go out of the way. On other hand we can go for a result oriented thinking and be happy that it didn't happen with a 3 token design.

Few proposals

Reduced railgun cost (alien equipment token)
By studding inner workings of plasma pistols and theorizing about alien ways of manufacturing, X-Com modified its railgun designs to allow easier production without reducing performance (reduce cost of XH and Phoenix pods)

Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation(unit experience token)
Ones who were students became teachers. X-COM sent its combat veterans to South American special forces, training local special forces in fighting alien menace (goal: Make Inter Agency Cooperation teams freely deployable in South America, reduce unit cost, Inter Agency Cooperation teams, maybe reduce panic)

Advanced pilot helmet
Modern pilot helmets are wonderful pieces of engineering but they are programmed for fighting against other jets using missiles. By integrating both experience gained in fighting with aliens and insights got during the failed TAV project, X-COM developed helmet that aids pilot's aiming and evasion in high speed dogfights with alien crafts.


First one may allow us to arm third notsofter with XHs and give us some breathing room for EP in future. I also will likely propose another proposal of cheap fighter with a spinal-like railgun next turn. Learning how to make those cheap will be handy.

Second one is an attempt to get numbers and some tactical flexibility. For example should they go heavy in Brazil again, 3 ravens+Skyranger+Notsofter+Cooperation teams may be a very viable option. Also, it uses token that is hard to use in design next turn.

Third one is an attempt to squeeze something out of that 2 and give us a tiny boost in the air.

[Happerry]

HARM Rockslide
The Homing Anti-Radation Missile 'Rockslide' is an alteration of the Avalanche that replaces the normal sensors that the Avalanche uses to home in on targets with sensors designed to lock onto and track the massive energy signature the alien ECM system must emit to mess with normal Avalanche missiles, and therefor turns what is a bane for a normal missile into a giant 'shoot me sign' for the Rockslide.

[Strongpoint]

HARM Rockslide
The Homing Anti-Radation Missile 'Rockslide' is an alteration of the Avalanche that replaces the normal sensors that the Avalanche uses to home in on targets with sensors designed to lock onto and track the massive energy signature the alien ECM system must emit to mess with normal Avalanche missiles, and therefor turns what is a bane for a normal missile into a giant 'shoot me sign' for the Rockslide.

We know exactly nothing about how their ECM works to assume that HARM will work. Their ECM may have no energy signature at all. Or they may turn it off and laugh as our missile fails to target them

Also, design uses no tokens, wasting opportunity to get buff(s)
Also, it does nothing with the second problem of missiles - low punch.
Also, it gives no useful tech experience outside of missile guidance (and even that is not an improvement but reuse of 50 year old technology)

If anyone really wants better missile, I offer this
Avalanche II (2 alien equipment tokens)
Avalanche II is an upgrade of Avalanche missile. Its warhead is upgraded with small amount of elerium to increase its punch. Rocket engine also got some Elerium additives improving speed of the missile. Existing guidance system was removed and replaced by more ECM resistant and adapted to target enemy plasma cannons (targeting developed by studying plasma pistols and extrapolating it to bigger plasma weapons)

but I don't think it is a great decision

[Madman198237]

HARM Rockslide
The Homing Anti-Radation Missile 'Rockslide' is an alteration of the Avalanche that replaces the normal sensors that the Avalanche uses to home in on targets with sensors designed to lock onto and track the massive energy signature the alien ECM system must emit to mess with normal Avalanche missiles, and therefor turns what is a bane for a normal missile into a giant 'shoot me sign' for the Rockslide.

We know exactly nothing about how their ECM works to assume that HARM will work. Their ECM may have no energy signature at all. Or they may turn it off and laugh as our missile fails to target them

Lolwhat? We know EXACTLY how it works---it sprays out information in the bands we're trying to track them with, confusing our missiles' tracking computers. A HARM is the *perfect* way to shoot down something that isn't using flares or decoys, but IS still using ECM.

Oh, and as for them shutting it off, you DO realize that we can just carry one of EACH missile, right? Or are you still to busy being condescending over TAV (Which was a perfectly functional and useful design, our infantry are STILL getting ambushed and it sucks, and needs to be fixed) to think about it?

[Strongpoint]

Almost immediately, the enemy activates some sort of ECM protocol, and most missiles go wild.

This is the only thing we know. We know that enemy did something. It is very useful information. This something can be something that ignores HARM missiles.

Oh, and as for them shutting it off, you DO realize that we can just carry one of EACH missile, right?

Great, half of missiles are bad in any case! Also, forget about railgun pads in this case. half of payload will be avalanche 1, half of payload will be avalanche 2.

Besides even HARM do work, it still doesn't fix weak warhead issue and still gives no useful experience, no tactical flexibility, only slight buff to airforce

Which was a perfectly functional and useful design

Yes, but being functional and useful is not exactly enough. Designs need to fit the situation.

[Madman198237]

"Being functional and useful is not enough"
OK, fine, we'll make that interceptor proposal that didn't get voted in, the one that included the ridiculous implants, because that fits the present situation better than TAV (It didn't) and is ambitious enough that lack of ambition won't waste the phase (I mean, the *lack* of ambition won't).


So, Strongpoint, ALL ECM works on the basic principle: Noise makes it harder to track you. From chaff in WWII to flares and EW planes today, things that make your environment noisy make it hard to find you in and amongst the noise. Therefore, they're utilizing some sort of noise system mounted on the UFOs to confuse our missiles' targeting systems.

If they're doing most other possible things, like manipulating our missiles' computers remotely, then they should have just used that on our planes and we'd have lost the air war already.

[Strongpoint]

"Being functional and useful is not enough"
OK, fine, we'll make that interceptor proposal that didn't get voted in, the one that included the ridiculous implants

"Not enough" is not the same as "not necessary".

ECM can be anything; invisible drones flying around and attracting missile, Some way to project signal outside of UFO while not generating any noise. Making UFO itself invisible to radar or heat seeking warhead (btw what guidance avalanche use?) Distant destruction of electronics (Raven may be simply more resistant to that). In any case this discussion is irrelevant. I consider trivial revision like this is dubious short term, bad long term.

[Strongpoint]

Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation (1): Strongpoint

Time to start the voting box. My vote goes here because
1) It gives us tactical flexibility.
2) I like long term effects of cooperating with other armed forces of humanity. For example, I can see us cooperating with airforces and helping them to get Raven-like craft for themselves
3) We have unit experience token. We won't use it on a design anytime soon. Better bank on it now when we have some breathing room and have no need fixing a design (because there are none)
4) Revisions are there to improve useless technologies that still have potential. Inter Agency Cooperation teams are such technology. There are very little reasons to use them over NOTSOFTER. This revision can change it.

[Madman198237]

ECM can be anything;

No, it can't, ECM has well-defined and unavoidable qualities.

invisible drones flying around and attracting missile

Game over, we lose.

Some way to project signal outside of UFO while not generating any noise.

Probably game over, we'll probably lose if they have some sort of wormhole or other teleportation tech that can move the signal in that way...Also, you don't understand the term "noise". Noise is anything that's not the signal you want to hear, and it only hurts active tracking devices. Passive ones, like IR-guided, can be distracted by noise from other targets (i.e., flares), but wouldn't be effective if, say, the enemy warplane suddenly lit itself up like a candle with a dazzling display of infrared patterns---the missile would keep tracking it. An active radar-guided missile, however, would be horribly confused by the target lighting up a wash of radio waves that, to it, don't make sense, and drown out the waves that it's "listening" for, the ones it sent out in the first place.

Making UFO itself invisible to radar or heat seeking warhead (btw what guidance avalanche use?)

Definitely game over.

Distant destruction of electronics (Raven may be simply more resistant to that).

This is just a ridiculous claim. If anything, the missile's electronics are tougher so that it will survive acceleration better. The Raven is just a bigger target. Oh, and if they can do that then we lose.

In any case this discussion is irrelevant. I consider trivial revision like this is dubious short term, bad long term.

Glad any discussion you can't win is irrelevant. Deciphering how their tech works is essential. As for the "dubiousness" of this revision proposal, give us another one, one that prevents their ECM from simply overriding our missiles and thus making us entirely ineffectual in the air. Or, propose a revision that fixes our aircraft problems in other ways.