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[Hapah]

(PPE: Are my posts difficult to follow? I often just copy-paste out the bits that I want to address in longer posts but that could make it hard to look at the context around the original. If it's a hassle I can try to work in the links to the originals, if nothing else.)

Your lurking is different to other players, because you're promising more but also saying that you can't provide at that time. 4maskwolf is active lurking. Gentlefish could stand to be more active. You seem to be trying to look more active than you are, but your engagement appears limited by external factors. However, because you promise activity (and either do or do not deliver on it) you set yourself up for more attention, so it's inevitable that you'll be called out on it.

I don't recall promising anything of the sort; I make my one real post a day and that's about it.

The reason to vote 4maskwolf is that he responded to pressure by making a non-case. That means that he has no interest in finding scum. He has an interest in staying alive, which is why he shot that bait-filled post at me (to force me to overextend myself and fall flat when I tried to lynch him) but doing this demonstrated that he is engaged with the game (since he responded to pressure without a vote) and that his engagement does not involve a desire to find out more (about scum). This means that he is scum, as opposed to merely inactive.

I'm not entirely certain what you mean in [1] (this was linked in roo's post but I plugged it in here instead of managing a quote-a-mid) would you care to clarify. I'll answer preemptively from what was going on in my mind. Iirc the color blue means a person is suspicious. In 180 is what I was referring to. But more importantly your post is finished yet you've listed a possibility but no evaluation of it.

You're right about what the blue text means, and that's a fair enough point. I'll spell it out around the bottom of this post.

Also the compliment while I do appreciate it this is a game after all. So you understand my trepidation I hope.

That's fair enough too, lol. Yeah, makes sense.

What did you dislike my vote switch and why was doll case not convincing for you? It felt like you were asking me with an incredulous tone like that convinced you? Or am I wrong here?

@Hapah: Word choice, connotation and denotation, these things give insight into people's motivations.  I don't really have a good example off the top of my head...though I suppose I could point you at Angry Tiruin in FBYOR 2 for a good example of suspicious activity.

You made a point of picking that particular bone even when asked if that's what you were really after, and now you can't see what you yourself hoped to gain from it. How do you imagine it looks from the outside? Conflict for conflict's sake, activity for the sake of activity.

Hapah
As before: why did it strike you as odd that roo moved their vote?
Did you think that vote carried a lot of weight?
Do you feel the vote was for something valid, yet unresolved?
What is that, and why didn't you ask about it specifically?
What is that, and why is it present in your play to get you voted on?

-Because it strikes me as odd for individuals to make their case to specific players; normally people make their case and let the chips fall where they may IIRC. You've done this twice now; it could just be a playstyle that I'm not accustomed to
-I wasn't bothered by it and I understood why he voted me, though I know my alignment and he doesn't. It was a combination of him feeling like I was buddying him (I'm just a nice person, and would be nice enough even if I was scummy), and the fact that me and Wubadub talked in a similar fashion (I can't control what other people say and I'm not gonna try to alter my own speech around it; I'm me for better or worse)
-As above
-As above
-As above

roo: It basically comes down to the exchange below, which funnily enough came from an RVS question. For reference, he's the back-and-forth. I've bolded the bits that are interesting to me.

Hapah
It's Day2. A scum player was lynched D1. A single player claims cop D2. Are they the cop? When would it be acceptable to lynch them? Do you pay any attention to their reports?

I think you almost have to believe him at that point, in a semiclosed game like this. I mean, that would be a bold going on foolish scumclaim: I looked at the role possibilities and two out of the three have an actual cop, right? If you fakeclaim cop as scum D2 and the real cop claims, one of you is gonna get lynched day 2 no question. And good luck talking your way out of that when you claimed Cop and the real one flips. I guess a vanilla townie could claim Cop, but I don't see what they could gain out of it (and it seems like an anti-town move).

Well lucky I'm not scum then because you'd have been fucked.
In games where scum are not blocked, they are statistically likely to be correct in assuming there is no cop (there is literally a better than 50% chance that either they find the cop or there was no cop).
Clearing a mafscum is auto-loss for the town.

Also, the cop will never flip in this game. Mafia 100% have a role-cop. That means that after N1, mafia can kill the player they inspected last night. If that lets mafia close out the victory, then that's what they'll do.

That said, it was a good answer, and it told me a lot.

(Edit here to insert link to original post: here)
I've been chewing on this all morning and can't come to the same conclusion no matter how I bend it. The bits the confuse me are bolded for emphasis, can you comment? It's a bit into the weeds but I am genuinely interested.

Re "Moving your vote is a towntell" - Oh yeah, I vaguely remember NQT starting that up. Interesting that it's still holding up after all this time.

1) Ignoring the Jailkeeper, mafia have a 5/9 chance of either detecting the cop if he is here via kill or inspect (and so not claiming in such a way), or being in a game without a cop if a town player is lynched first thing. This is what I was referring to (I incorrectly thought this was 11/21 at that time).
2) Ignoring the Jailkeeper, a lone mafia rolecop has a 11/21 chance of either detecting the cop if he is here via kill or inspect (and so not claiming in such a way), or being in a game without a cop if the vanilla scum player is lynched first thing. This is substantially better than his likely chance of success in winning the game after a Day1 scumlynch.
3) Taking the Jailkeeper into account increases scum's chances in this regard (since they by definition can bail if he interferes so he can't have a negative influence on optimal scum play with regards to this early D2 fake-claim), so he adjusts the numbers in their favor (since detecting the Jailkeeper lowers the chance that there is a cop in the setup, as it were). I'm too lazy to run the numbers since he makes it complex and I'd need to do a lot of special cases but basically his being in the list isn't bad for scum with regards to this strategy.

Mafia who have inspected a player successfully can just kill that player, and so be sure that they are not outing the cop. By repeating this each night (killing the previous inspect result) mafia can know what will flip before they kill it. This will, however, reduce their total knowledge of players roles. If they need to do this in order to keep a fake cop alive, though, they will do it since getting a justifiable fake cop to lylo can easily close out the game for the scum.

The underlying logic of why moving your vote is a towntell is pretty obvious and solid, so it's not that surprising. It's nice to be able to point it out with such a documented history, though.

This exchange feels odd to me for the simple fact that folks don't generally make the firms sort of responses you see in the initial reply ("you'd be fucked if you did that", with supporting details) if they haven't done the odds themselves. However, the question (which doll asked themselves) explicitly states that a scum was lynched D1, but the responses do the math like there are two scum. The initial response after I FOS doll does the math like there are two scum again; my thinking is that Doll might have mucked up the math the first time because to them there are still two scum: doll and their scumbuddy.

The other bit, for me at least, is that doll seems a little....arrogant is the word I'm going to use, though I don't know the right one? Already lining up lynches for the next day without evaluating the results of the first one, or the results of the night actions. It's not a lot to go on (hell, I'm not evening voting on it), but it's curious enough to me (and in my eyes we're lynching someone for less). That's all for now!

[doll]

bluh bluh

The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:
The message exceeds the maximum allowed length (40000 characters).

Split into three posts instead I guess.

hector13
To clarify, you voted me primarily to tie up the votes and force the extension (and you wouldn't be too concerned with a doll lynch), right?

Partly. You and 4mask are going to be difficult to read, so tying the vote between you two would force webadict to choose between you both, but then I figured lynching 4mask'll probably tell me more about you than a doll lynch'll tell me about 4mask.

I feel like this should be telling me a lot (that is, I should be able to read a lot into it) but I'm struggling to do so.
The only thing I can really see here is that it softclears webadict if he hammers scum.
I knew, though I suppose that you might not have, that I was too cute to lynch - Webadict wouldn't hammer someone as (productively) active as me Day 1 no matter how 'scummy' they were; with his being here to point that out, I wouldn't expect a doll lynch from Hapah (or you) either so I just assumed that I was safe (and I was).

What are you hoping to divine about me when the 4maskwolf lynch goes through?

I was also going to point out after TBF answered that the "case" you have on 4mask can be applied to almost half the town, but you beat me to it. Uncertain how to feel about that. Well... it gives you more Towncred. I'm uncertain how to feel about that

4maskwolf is the most egregious, and only definite case of what I'm talking about here (activelurking proper i.e. no "real" activity at all).
You ask about this pretty succinctly later so I'll answer it there.

doll: I guess my question to you then is why you think 4mask is the most egregious example out of the 4 you mentioned?

Answering this pretty well sums up the entirety of the path the Day 1 lynch has been following so I'll try to do it justice.

4maskwolf is the only player who is actually activelurking (he's gone completely quiet now, but that's not really related to this question and by all appearances has nothing to do with the lynch).
This is hard to really 'prove', since I'm asserting a negative. To go about this, I'm going to quote all of his posts:

Spoiler: 4maskwolf in BM61 (click to show/hide)

Everyone: What question would you least like to be asked in this RVS, and what would you answer to it?

Any question, and my answer is "fuck you, here's your answer" followed by the answer to whatever question it is.  I fucking hate RVS, but it's a necessary evil.

Now: fuck you, here's your answer.  I hate being asked about my plans for how to play the game and my answer would be "because I don't know how I'm going to play before I actually get there, and you have to analyze my play through your own experience with me and not based on what I say about how I'm going to play".

webadict: Not really RVS related, but what's the most important tip you have for the new players here?
doll: Given your seeming high level of experience from outside of Bay12, I'm surprised you chose to sign up as a regular player in a BM.  Do you not feel you have enough experience with the Bay12 meta?
Hapah: What's your favorite RVS question and what is your answer to it?
Gentlefish: If you're the cop and sub out to get replaced by a newbie who gets lynched the day they sub in again, I'll never forgive you (three year call-back to my first ever BM).
roo: Oh heya.  If you had a daykill, who would you use it on and why?
johiah and Doubloon-Seven: Welcome new players!  Do you have any previous mafia experience?  How did you find our subforum?  What inspired you to play a game here?
TheBiggerFish: I'm lazy, so answer the question you asked me.

4mask: Don't plan on it I'm dead on deadweek so we should be okay. What brings you back into beginner's mafia? I'm too lazy to see if you're an IC right now.

I'm an IC, I'm just giving the more experienced IC the floor first to provide advice and I'll follow up with anything I feel needs mentioning.

TBF: Cut it out.  Seriously.  There's nothing to be gained from antagonizing roo and given your actions last game I'm not feeling particularly charitable with your bullshit this game.  I will not hesitate to push your lynch Day One if I believe it will benefit the town to have you gone, regardless of your alignment.

johiah: Rule number one of mafia: no editing your posts.

TBF: Yes, I have, and my daykill question was a subtle callback to GBU 2 where he got daykilled D1 by an aggravated one-shot vig.  Notice that I'm not antagonizing him about his previous play.

@Everyone: Who would you inspect as a Cop and why?

All things equal, I'd inspect you or doll.  Both of you are competent and hard for me to read, and if everyone was equal in my eyes I'd go with one of you.

Now, obviously, not all things are equal in a game of mafia, so I'll give a bit more of an in-depth answer.  I wouldn't inspect TBF, because it's a waste of an inspect to target someone who is likely to be lynched in the future.  Even if I did inspect him and he turned up town, I'd have to out myself to save him and it's not worth the tradeoff.  I'd try and go for someone who's in the middle of the pack: not incredibly townie-looking, but not likely to get their ass lynched either.  That way, my inspection results will hopefully be useful when it really matters come late-game.

4maskwolf
As you can see, I am rolefishing.
What's your role this game?

That you are.  I am the mafia rolecop and I'm going to be inspecting you tonight.  No but more seriously, there's only one response I can actually give to this, which is "vanilla townie".  I have no reason to claim mafia whether I am or not, and if I claim a town power role it opens me up to hasty counterclaims if I'm not that role and makes me a target if I am.  If this were something like a NSBM I might claim one of the town power roles and leave it ambiguous whether I was or not to WIFOM the scum, but not in a game like this.

TheDarkStar: Could we have a votecount, I'd like to see where things stand at the moment.

Do we have to kill someone first turn? (disarm? whatever.)

Debatable, but the general answer is "yes".  We don't have to, but it's in the town's best interests to, because it lowers the number of suspects and keeps the number of players at an odd number presuming the scum kill at night.  There's a lot more theory behind why you should lynch D1 but I'm not a huge theorycrafting person so I don't have it memorized.

Soz, had a busy couple days and disappeared for what I think is now over 48 hours.  Well, I is the back now.

4maskwolf
If you can't claim without the risk of being taken at face value by new players, why claim at all?
Do you think your fakeclaim is going to make it harder on you to claim latter in the game?
Do you think experienced players surviving into the lategame will make them more suspicious?

For your first question, I fail to understand the specific context you're going for here.  Are you asking why I claimed vanilla town?  As of right now, there are very few people with a vested interest in being seen as anything other than vanilla town.  Genuine town power roles aren't going to want to draw the nightkill to themselves by seeming like a power role, scum don't want to get outed by being counterclaimed, and while a regular townie might want to draw heat off of a power role but for reasons I pointed out in my previous post wouldn't want to claim it directly.  Thus, claiming vanilla town is a neutral claim that is utterly meaningless to what my actual role is at this stage in the game.  For this same reason, me claiming vanilla town now should not be an issue should I claim a power role later on: if it is, I'll just point people to this discussion.  As for your last question... yes and no.  This question is very prone to WIFOM because whatever the answer is the scum can always manipulate things to seem worse than they are (for example, leaving an experienced town who just got some bad reads alive to LYLO in hopes of getting them lynched).  In general, in a BM, I'd say "yes, it makes them a little more suspicious", but like everything else whether or not it makes an individual player suspicious needs to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis.

And yes, before anyone brings it up, there is always the strategy of hinting that you're a power role when you're not to try scum aggro away from the actual PRs.  I didn't mention this for a couple of reasons, the primary one being that it wasn't directly related to the question at hand, and the other being that this is a BM and this strategy is less likely to show up when you have players who are learning the B12 meta for the first time.

That's a good answer, and one that makes the most sense to do.

Which is why I would instead inspect doll. BECAUSE he's the most likely to be killed other than me, he is the best person to inspect, since the most obvious choice is usually the least likely to happen, and anyone that goes for the most obvious choice tends to have less experience, which means that I am less likely to require the investigation if they do kill him.

Alternatively, you answer leaves open the gap where you COULD save someone from being lynched, at the expense of yourself, but then again, is self-preservation more useful in this case? Your goal is to use your information ASAP, but, the longer you withhold, the more investigations you will have, so it's a tricky situation. Perhaps two investigations is all you need. Perhaps you COULD hold out for a third.

Overall, I give your answer a D-. I feel like it was the right answer by virtue only. It lacked the depth needed for it to be one hundred percent correct, and while there was supporting evidence, it felt forced.

Yup, you're right, my answer was lacking in depth and had minimal supporting evidence.  That's how I tend to post, for a variety of out-of-game reasons, but let's just discuss the one that was relevant to this particular post.  That post was written up just before I headed off to work for a night shift, and as I was rushed for time I by necessity cut out a lot of fluff from my answer and gave a terse version.  I also was less invested in providing a blow-by-blow analysis because it was an RVS question, albeit an interesting one that didn't make me want to eat a pistol for being asked it.  My general policy for RVS questions is to provide a little more information than is strictly necessary but not enough that I have to devote significant mental resources to mapping out all the possibilities.  Sorry to disappoint, Wubsy.

@TheBiggerFish: I recall you asking me what the difference is between you antagonizing roo for previous games and me antagonizing you for FBYOR2?  The answer is that I wasn't attempting to antagonize you at all.  I was explaining why I would have a very low bullshit tolerance with you (heavily influenced by that one game) and didn't plan on bringing up that game ever again in that context, I try to let bygones be bygones.  You, on the other hand, greeted roo's entrance into the game with petty sniping and general defamation because of previous games where, yes, he played in an incredibly aggravating manner.  There is literally no purpose to what you were saying beyond direct aggression against roo over previous actions.

claiming vanilla town is a neutral claim that is utterly meaningless to what my actual role is at this stage in the game.  For this same reason, me claiming vanilla town now should not be an issue should I claim a power role later on: if it is, I'll just point people to this discussion.

Well, I am the cop. See, that was utterly meaningless too. There's no reason to think that one Day 1 claim is any different from any other, as you so clearly have identified.
It's almost a running gag to scumclaim when asked that question (what your role is) or when asked if you are scum.
What made you choose Vanilla Townie (and so specifically, too) over anything else? Why answer at all? Why not refuse to claim, which seems the much more prudent choice?

It seems to me that so far your play has been an attempt to avoid the spotlight. Why is that?

I could give a long-winded glib answer about why I believed vanilla townie to be the best claim and how I didn't feel like arguing with five other people, but honestly that wasn't what I was thinking at the time.  The answer to all your questions except the last one is "because I fucking felt like it".  I don't put a huge amount of thought into what I say until I find something to latch onto and pursue, unlike you and webadict.

As for your last question, I'm not.  You of all people should know that I'm not a particularly active or aggressive poster in the early stages of the game, extending all the way through the end of D1 and often most of D2.  Unlike you, I'm not good at pursuing lines of questioning and sussing out tidbits of information from people, so by nature I'm going to be less noticeable in the early stages of the game.  If you want to go after someone about avoiding the spotlight why not prod one of the actual lurkers rather than me, 'cause I'm actually posting reasonably large posts with content.

@hector13: What are you doing here? Haven't you been here long enough to not be a newbie yet

More seriously, though, what are your thoughts on the game so far, when you get a chance to read through everything.

@TBF: Gun to your head, who's one scum and why.

TheDarkStar
Don't forget that I'm voting to extend the day.
Fun fact:
4maskwolf hasn't done anything since his first post during RVS other than answer questions and harp on TBF (his lynch) for being anti-town.

Yeah shove it up your ass, I'm never useful on D1 and you goddamn well know it.  You've played two other games with me and in both while I was moderately active on D1 there was a large difference between "active" and "useful".  So why are you bothering to push me over something you've seen me do as both town and scum?

Extend, I'm a busy person with a busy life and need more time.

His play thus far I guess has been fairly typical of the 4mask I've played with - all of three times I think. Optimum answers to RVS questions, being a bit smarmy if someone throws them shade 'cause he knows they don't have anything to go on yet, pushing a bit on weaker players for some easy towncred.

If you read through my posts you should know that I didn't really push on anyone.  I got pissy with TBF for being anti-town and voted him over it because if all else fails lynching an anti-town player is better than lynching some random joe if there isn't a good scumpick.  He's being less anti-town now, so unvote.  Also, is smarmy actually the word you were looking for there or were you looking for a different unflattering adjective?

Extend, I'm a busy person with a busy life and need more time.

Could it be this easy?

What?

Normally I'd think you're accusing me of being scum but you italicized my extend request.

Ohh.

I see what you're saying.

Sorry son, but that logic ain't gonna fly in this building.  See, I'm not very effective on D1, but that does not mean that I don't think D1 is important.  The longer a day goes on the more information there is for me to analyze later, when I actually come online in the later days.  And yes, I need more time to do my very shitty best at acquiring more information to analyze.

doll: Explain why you're voting gentlefish, because your vote was just a one-word post following doll's wall of text, and this despite having been fighting with wuba for most of the day.

His play thus far I guess has been fairly typical of the 4mask I've played with - all of three times I think. Optimum answers to RVS questions, being a bit smarmy if someone throws them shade 'cause he knows they don't have anything to go on yet, pushing a bit on weaker players for some easy towncred.

If you read through my posts you should know that I didn't really push on anyone.  I got pissy with TBF for being anti-town and voted him over it because if all else fails lynching an anti-town player is better than lynching some random joe if there isn't a good scumpick.  He's being less anti-town now, so unvote.  Also, is smarmy actually the word you were looking for there or were you looking for a different unflattering adjective?

What unflattering adjective would you choose to describe it?

I thought it was more of a compliment, tbh. You can be smarmy 'cause you can talk your way out of things.

I don't think smarmy means what you think it means.

Now I'll be lazy and not read doll's stuff again.

Interesting (and bleedin' obvious, but bugger it) that he has said that 4mask is his top scumpick but has yet to really press a case on him.

Also interesting how doll thinks TBF isn't anti-town, given his case against Johiah is "he's doing it worse than me"... /lazy manipulation to get someone else to press doll for me

This is indeed curious, and I have my theories on why, but I'm going to stop talking to you now and talk directly to doll.

doll:  You want me to be aggressive?  You want me to fight back?  Then fine, you can have it.  Stop being so standoffish and actually vote for me.  You've said I'm your biggest scum suspect, yet you repeatedly vote for people who aren't me.  All you're doing is standing back and casting shade for future days, and it doesn't reflect well on you.  Setting up lynches ahead of time like that is a pretty basic scum trick: they lynch one town today, cast major shade on another one to make them an easier lynch tomorrow.  I doubt you're actually stupid enough to do it so blatantly, which begs the question: what are you trying to do?  Are you trying to bait me into being more active and taking a more aggressive stance? Then congratulations, you've succeeded.  And now that you have, fucking do something about it.  If you think I'm scum, stop dancing around the issue and hit me with your vote.  Push me for information, try and force me to crack under pressure.  Rally the town and your scumbuddy to try and get me lynched.  Because that... that's the way to get me to fight back.  You haven't seen it because I've never been under serious pressure in any game we've played together, but when backed into a corner that's when I fight back the hardest and most candidly. So if you want me to do things, that's how you should go about it.

Oh son of a bitch.

That first comment was to roo, not doll, I'm just an idiot.

Ohh.

I see what you're saying.

Sorry son, but that logic ain't gonna fly in this building.  See, I'm not very effective on D1, but that does not mean that I don't think D1 is important.  The longer a day goes on the more information there is for me to analyze later, when I actually come online in the later days.  And yes, I need more time to do my very shitty best at acquiring more information to analyze.

Oh of course that makes so much sense don't mind me then carry on doing nothing

You say, ignoring my question to you and the fact that I actually found someone to pressure in the previous two posts.

Actually I'd be willing to lynch 4mask. That outburst was probably fake or a desperate attempt to be town read. It's most likely to be scum trying to say gt off me.

Please.  I was in no danger and still don't feel like I'm in any actual danger, and I'm not RattyB.  I'm not going to flip the fuck out and try to desperately defend myself just because someone dared say mean words to me.  I'm pushing doll to see how he reacts which will give me information down the road and in the here and now, and half of my post is, yes, me thinking out loud, which is why it seems to meander.

Actually I'd be willing to lynch 4mask. That outburst was probably fake or a desperate attempt to be town read. It's most likely to be scum trying to say gt off me.

Please.  I was in no danger and still don't feel like I'm in any actual danger, and I'm not RattyB.  I'm not going to flip the fuck out and try to desperately defend myself just because someone dared say mean words to me.  I'm pushing doll to see how he reacts which will give me information down the road and in the here and now, and half of my post is, yes, me thinking out loud, which is why it seems to meander.

True but then why the emotional outburst? Why did you just do exactly that? Also who and what is a rattyB?

I won't answer the first question until doll responds, I will defend myself just not in a blatantly stupid and hyperaggressive manner, and RattyB was a newbie scum in Paranormal 25 who, like many newbies do, freaked out under pressure and outed himself and one of his scumbuddies (Hi TBF!).

I'm going to throw in my lot for an extend.  I got called in to cover like all the shifts at work and didn't have the time or energy to post here over the weekend, and I'm sure as hell not going to make a large post this late at night.

There's nothing in there that you need to see, but my case is based around the fact that there is nothing in there to see which could contradict the following:
4maskwolf has not done anything to hunt for scum in this game

[doll]

To drill down to the core of this issue, let's look at posts where he has asked questions:

Spoiler: Miiiight generate some content (click to show/hide)

Everyone: What question would you least like to be asked in this RVS, and what would you answer to it?

Any question, and my answer is "fuck you, here's your answer" followed by the answer to whatever question it is.  I fucking hate RVS, but it's a necessary evil.

Now: fuck you, here's your answer.  I hate being asked about my plans for how to play the game and my answer would be "because I don't know how I'm going to play before I actually get there, and you have to analyze my play through your own experience with me and not based on what I say about how I'm going to play".

webadict: Not really RVS related, but what's the most important tip you have for the new players here?
doll: Given your seeming high level of experience from outside of Bay12, I'm surprised you chose to sign up as a regular player in a BM.  Do you not feel you have enough experience with the Bay12 meta?
Hapah: What's your favorite RVS question and what is your answer to it?
Gentlefish: If you're the cop and sub out to get replaced by a newbie who gets lynched the day they sub in again, I'll never forgive you (three year call-back to my first ever BM).
roo: Oh heya.  If you had a daykill, who would you use it on and why?
johiah and Doubloon-Seven: Welcome new players!  Do you have any previous mafia experience?  How did you find our subforum?  What inspired you to play a game here?
TheBiggerFish: I'm lazy, so answer the question you asked me.

He asks RVS questions to Hapah and roo and throws nothing to anybody else. He might get some meta content off of johiah and Doubloon-Seven's questions, but that meta content is useless if there's no game content to come with it (and the meta content was forthcoming anyway which is why I declined to mention it earlier when I wasn't being quite so thorough).

4maskwolf does not ever follow up on his RVS questions to Hapah or roo.

doll: Explain why you're voting gentlefish, because your vote was just a one-word post following doll's wall of text, and this despite having been fighting with wuba for most of the day.

His play thus far I guess has been fairly typical of the 4mask I've played with - all of three times I think. Optimum answers to RVS questions, being a bit smarmy if someone throws them shade 'cause he knows they don't have anything to go on yet, pushing a bit on weaker players for some easy towncred.

If you read through my posts you should know that I didn't really push on anyone.  I got pissy with TBF for being anti-town and voted him over it because if all else fails lynching an anti-town player is better than lynching some random joe if there isn't a good scumpick.  He's being less anti-town now, so unvote.  Also, is smarmy actually the word you were looking for there or were you looking for a different unflattering adjective?

What unflattering adjective would you choose to describe it?

I thought it was more of a compliment, tbh. You can be smarmy 'cause you can talk your way out of things.

I don't think smarmy means what you think it means.

Now I'll be lazy and not read doll's stuff again.

Interesting (and bleedin' obvious, but bugger it) that he has said that 4mask is his top scumpick but has yet to really press a case on him.

Also interesting how doll thinks TBF isn't anti-town, given his case against Johiah is "he's doing it worse than me"... /lazy manipulation to get someone else to press doll for me

This is indeed curious, and I have my theories on why, but I'm going to stop talking to you now and talk directly to doll.

doll:  You want me to be aggressive?  You want me to fight back?  Then fine, you can have it.  Stop being so standoffish and actually vote for me.  You've said I'm your biggest scum suspect, yet you repeatedly vote for people who aren't me.  All you're doing is standing back and casting shade for future days, and it doesn't reflect well on you.  Setting up lynches ahead of time like that is a pretty basic scum trick: they lynch one town today, cast major shade on another one to make them an easier lynch tomorrow.  I doubt you're actually stupid enough to do it so blatantly, which begs the question: what are you trying to do?  Are you trying to bait me into being more active and taking a more aggressive stance? Then congratulations, you've succeeded.  And now that you have, fucking do something about it.  If you think I'm scum, stop dancing around the issue and hit me with your vote.  Push me for information, try and force me to crack under pressure.  Rally the town and your scumbuddy to try and get me lynched.  Because that... that's the way to get me to fight back.  You haven't seen it because I've never been under serious pressure in any game we've played together, but when backed into a corner that's when I fight back the hardest and most candidly. So if you want me to do things, that's how you should go about it.

With the way he addresses (doll), 4maskwolf never actually gives me a specific point on which to respond; at best, this could be summed up as "What do you (doll) have on (4maskwolf)?"; realistically, this could be summed up as trying to call me out for putting more pressure on him than I have evidence to back up. Sure, this is true; I'm not as happy with the case as it could be. After all, it rests mostly on a kind of inactivity, so it will never have the strength of an active case on an active and scummy player; as opposed to being scummy, you could say that 4maskwolf is definitely not towny.
Really, 4maskwolf doesn't ask a question here but he is inviting content (even if the content is unrelated to finding scum - the evidence for my case [finding 4scumwolf] is separate from the material production of my case [lynching 4scumwolf] and 4maskwolf only cares about the later) so I've included it anyway.

Spoiler: Literally nothing (click to show/hide)

His play thus far I guess has been fairly typical of the 4mask I've played with - all of three times I think. Optimum answers to RVS questions, being a bit smarmy if someone throws them shade 'cause he knows they don't have anything to go on yet, pushing a bit on weaker players for some easy towncred.

If you read through my posts you should know that I didn't really push on anyone.  I got pissy with TBF for being anti-town and voted him over it because if all else fails lynching an anti-town player is better than lynching some random joe if there isn't a good scumpick.  He's being less anti-town now, so unvote.  Also, is smarmy actually the word you were looking for there or were you looking for a different unflattering adjective?

Extend, I'm a busy person with a busy life and need more time.

Could it be this easy?

What?

Normally I'd think you're accusing me of being scum but you italicized my extend request.

Technically, these are questions, but if they are related to scumhunting it'll blow my mind.

So, if this is 4maskwolf, what about everyone else?
Well, I'm asserting a positive here (that they have asked questions) so I'll copy-paste some curt examples and leave it at that:

Spoiler: TheBiggerFish (click to show/hide)

doll:Why bring up your suspicions of Wuba being a power role in public like this?  Do you know something we don't?

Spoiler: Hapah (click to show/hide)

...

doll

There isn't an alternative case to make or being made; every other vote train has been slippery because it was based on inactivity.

Fundamentally, the case against 4maskwolf hasn't changed. He hasn't done anything to find scum. Nothing at all. Not one thing.

In fundamental terms, 4maskwolf has the scummiest play I've ever seen. His game has been the platinum standard of active lurking. He hasn't even promised activity; he has given out literally nothing, not even the flame of hope of his being useful later. He has done his best to not exist without being noticed for it.

Reconcile these statements. While you've written a lot in your leadup to the vote on 4mask, in the end your case is basically just that he's inactive and therefore scummy. How is this particular case different?

I'm going to review TBF's P25 (scum) play so it's easier for me to flip-flop on him with my partner.

What did you mean by this?

Votecount, please.

Spoiler: Gentlefish (click to show/hide)

...

Gentlefish is suspicious. I'm not making a big case out of him because he has yet to respond, and the longer that goes on the harder it'll be for him to reverse any bandwagon I set moving in his path.
Note here that I've stated my intent in positioning the town. I am, as it were, being honestly less than honest, even though I am voting for the target of my suspicion. But I don't seem to want you to vote him yet, because I want him to make it easier for me to get you to vote him. Since he has an out for this (doing what I want and going for something, answering my questions), it also makes it easier for him to avoid the lynch if I can get him to do what I want, which is to give me an opportunity to read him (and so decide if I want to push for the lynch after that or not).

Bruh, it was the weekend. I was around on the forums but I just came out of the busiest school week of the semester for me, of course I didn't want to sit down and tip-tap out these long-ass posts when my brain is broken. I'm here now though so let's get into it.

You talked about about there not being "a hammer system". I actually had to google that, thank you. It's RVS and we have until wednesday for our votes. If it makes you happy I'll leave my vote on someone, but right now I'm using it as a tool to get people to talk. People don't like votes on them even if they aren't getting lynched because it means someone doesn't believe them or thinks they're a hindrance. And here you're saying you don't want people to vote, but only on a specific person? The person who I've personally voted for, before you, after having built a case, you don't want people to vote for. Okay.

Why are you trying to lead a personal charge against TBF? Why did you say you don't want others to vote him? Miss me with that "seem" noise, you straight up justified it right after that.

I really did not expect Mafia to be this involved.
Will think of questions.

Johiah: Mafia is pretty involved, yeah. It's a lot of post analysis and trying to find out where people are really trying to do behind it all. It's pretty rough stuff!

Now, that said, how come you aren't posting? They don't have to be especially large like Doll's or mine, but smaller ones where you answer one question at a time and come back with a response is plenty enough in a BM game like this. It gives us something to work with, other than nothing. It can only help you look better.

I admit I had to go looking to find this content and it's not good but it is something (and he's new, whereas 4maskwolf is the IC).

Spoiler: johiah (click to show/hide)

Johiah is more completely inactive than activelurking. I actually didn't realize how bad it was because I've been mostly ignoring him (and hoping he replaces out) because he doesn't post and what he does post reflects a player with no interest - in mafia at all, and I personally find his style of posting nauseating and offensive. I'm sort of tearing into him here but really his play is inexcusable and doesn't really tell us anything about whether he is or is not mafia. I only moved away from the lynch on him (by shaking things up by moving hard on 4maskwolf) because 4maskwolf stole the show and threw out hard enough that I felt I could get in under that slip (going hard against me without addressing my core points, instead of hunting scum to the side to weaken my actual arguments).

Webadict was right that having johiah around is probably the worst outcome for town but I'm really just hoping that he leaves (or shapes up) and I realize I'm sort of touching on that ambiguous and unethical territory of basically bullying a player until he leaves but really it's at least as inconsiderate to go in on a game which people are committed to and then never contribute and make a mockery of the whole idea.

You and webadict have a similar mindset (one I understand but don't necessarily share) about bringing "useful" players into the latter stages of the game. Of the 4 players you mentioned, who do you think'd be the most useful to keep alive? Or, the non-trap version, does 4mask's dearth of content now trump their value in the late game and if so, why so?

Webadict and I are thinking differently here, because his tagline could be 'useful' wheras mine would be 'legible'. That is, I'm looking for players on whom strong reads should emerge; 4maskwolf was one of these players (I never expected a strong degree of certainty Day 1 and while I'm much happier with a Day 1 4maskwolf lynch than I'd ever thought I could be, I still do think I'd be more sure at a later date - which is why I wasn't forcing it and only went hard after he called me out on it).
Hapah especially should be easy to read as the game progresses, because he's active and plays in a fairly conventional way; it would not be unreasonable to expect him to slip (especially as scum) in a fairly conventional way. I want Hapah in Day 2 because I think that I'll be able to decide to within a high (say, 80% plus if you want numbers) degree of accuracy as to what his alignment is. I might even be able to divine his specific role, if he is town. Hapah and Gentlefish are the most likely to be useful. If I was throwing out protects in the night, my order of priority would be Hapah>Gentlefish>TheBiggerFish>Johiah, while the likelyhood that they are town (at this very second) would probably be TheBiggerFish>Gentlefish>Johiah>Hapah.

I'm not so much concerned by a lack of content from 4maskwolf, but rather that they have content which does not contribute to finding scum but no content which does. As I made abundantly clear leading up to 4maskwolf forcing out the case, I had no intention of pursuing 4maskwolf on Day 1. I feel like his 'outburst' demonstrates my point sufficiently well that I can sell the case now and it makes me happy enough with his lynch to go for it Day 1 over the greater certainty of going for it on a later date (bonus note: 4maskwolf in purely meta terms has always been a high priority target for town and scum nightaction, so he might well have been cleared by a cop or death before I ever had to think about it if I had waited).

[doll]

(PPE: Are my posts difficult to follow? I often just copy-paste out the bits that I want to address in longer posts but that could make it hard to look at the context around the original. If it's a hassle I can try to work in the links to the originals, if nothing else.)

I always just quote the posts I am replying to and then copy+paste the 'quote header' with the post details, as it were. It depends how you're working what works for you, I guess.
You posts aren't difficult to follow for me. The only time I miss having links is when I'm previewing my own post and I might want to look for a bit more of context for my own post to analyze, and that's about it.

Your lurking is different to other players, because you're promising more but also saying that you can't provide at that time. 4maskwolf is active lurking. Gentlefish could stand to be more active. You seem to be trying to look more active than you are, but your engagement appears limited by external factors. However, because you promise activity (and either do or do not deliver on it) you set yourself up for more attention, so it's inevitable that you'll be called out on it.

I don't recall promising anything of the sort; I make my one real post a day and that's about it.

It's just things like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wouldn't like another week, personally. If things stay as they are night will fall on Wednesday and day won't break until Thursday at the earliest (and with it two more extensions should we need it). There are plenty more days to go.

I'm piecing together a post in another tab as a I find the time, I'll get it out sometime this evening (next 4 hours or so).

Yeah, if you're not having fun then ask for a replacement. Games are meant to be enjoyed, after all!

I've had a rather large change IRL today and don't know that I'll get a post out this evening, though I bet I can manage one in the morning.

Which draw attention to how active you are, rather than actual inactivity, which I'm commenting on. You're not doing anything scummy by it, but you're doing yourself no favors by promising something (you don't actually get anything out of a post which says 'I'll be active later' and it even encourages people to move against you because it's easier to see you as more 'active' without actually changing the amount of content you create - it is better (looks townier) to have a few posts with the same amount of content as a large number of posts, most of which are devoid of meaning; it's easier to keep the discussion on point, too, since most responses to you will be directly related to your most recent post if you cut out the 'fluff' of promising evening activity while you are at work etc.). This is my advice on a stronger playstyle with regards to how you appear when posting in this manner; you can see in the classic scumchat of Wild West Mafia how Jim comments on the use of holding off on posting until it actually suits you to do so; this might not be for you but to my mind it works so I'll carry through with it. (for reference, while Jim is scum in that game he comments specifically that he would still wait as town regardless)

The reason to vote 4maskwolf is that he responded to pressure by making a non-case. That means that he has no interest in finding scum. He has an interest in staying alive, which is why he shot that bait-filled post at me (to force me to overextend myself and fall flat when I tried to lynch him) but doing this demonstrated that he is engaged with the game (since he responded to pressure without a vote) and that his engagement does not involve a desire to find out more (about scum). This means that he is scum, as opposed to merely inactive.

Something missing here?
You've quoted the summary of the core of my case. Do you agree with it? If not, why not? If so, why aren't you voting 4maskwolf?

-Because it strikes me as odd for individuals to make their case to specific players; normally people make their case and let the chips fall where they may IIRC. You've done this twice now; it could just be a playstyle that I'm not accustomed to

I mean, doing that is great and all if all you want is to brag in deadchat or after the thread that 'I totally picked scum I'm such a great player lol' but if you want to actually lynch someone you've got to move the town, and different players in different situations are moved by quite different things. I'm treating roo as nearly confirmed town, and roo seems to think of me quite well, so all I need to move their vote is a decent idea and for them not to be doing anything much with it. On the contrary, to move hector's vote all I needed was the strongest case available to the town - to move johiah's I might need to bully him tangential to the game, to move you I might need to engage with your thoughts as you present them and speak on those topics on which you remain unconvinced, to move TheBiggerFish I might even need to get the rest of the town to be saying certain things. Mafia is quantized, and the basic unit (the vote) is actually rather large. This kind of contemporary, quantum mafia is why 4maskwolf and webadict talk about me like I'm a kawaii Bobby Fischer, but it's really just applying the principles that everybody knows they are supposed to use - if they want to win. (you can see this, again, in Jim's Wild West Mafia, where he effectively controls the lynch the whole game through - by picking what players are able to vote by selecting [as scum] who will die each night and keeping around a group he can control).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

roo: It basically comes down to the exchange below, which funnily enough came from an RVS question. For reference, he's the back-and-forth. I've bolded the bits that are interesting to me.

Hapah
It's Day2. A scum player was lynched D1. A single player claims cop D2. Are they the cop? When would it be acceptable to lynch them? Do you pay any attention to their reports?

I think you almost have to believe him at that point, in a semiclosed game like this. I mean, that would be a bold going on foolish scumclaim: I looked at the role possibilities and two out of the three have an actual cop, right? If you fakeclaim cop as scum D2 and the real cop claims, one of you is gonna get lynched day 2 no question. And good luck talking your way out of that when you claimed Cop and the real one flips. I guess a vanilla townie could claim Cop, but I don't see what they could gain out of it (and it seems like an anti-town move).

Well lucky I'm not scum then because you'd have been fucked.
In games where scum are not blocked, they are statistically likely to be correct in assuming there is no cop (there is literally a better than 50% chance that either they find the cop or there was no cop).
Clearing a mafscum is auto-loss for the town.

Also, the cop will never flip in this game. Mafia 100% have a role-cop. That means that after N1, mafia can kill the player they inspected last night. If that lets mafia close out the victory, then that's what they'll do.

That said, it was a good answer, and it told me a lot.

(Edit here to insert link to original post: here)
I've been chewing on this all morning and can't come to the same conclusion no matter how I bend it. The bits the confuse me are bolded for emphasis, can you comment? It's a bit into the weeds but I am genuinely interested.

Re "Moving your vote is a towntell" - Oh yeah, I vaguely remember NQT starting that up. Interesting that it's still holding up after all this time.

1) Ignoring the Jailkeeper, mafia have a 5/9 chance of either detecting the cop if he is here via kill or inspect (and so not claiming in such a way), or being in a game without a cop if a town player is lynched first thing. This is what I was referring to (I incorrectly thought this was 11/21 at that time).
2) Ignoring the Jailkeeper, a lone mafia rolecop has a 11/21 chance of either detecting the cop if he is here via kill or inspect (and so not claiming in such a way), or being in a game without a cop if the vanilla scum player is lynched first thing. This is substantially better than his likely chance of success in winning the game after a Day1 scumlynch.
3) Taking the Jailkeeper into account increases scum's chances in this regard (since they by definition can bail if he interferes so he can't have a negative influence on optimal scum play with regards to this early D2 fake-claim), so he adjusts the numbers in their favor (since detecting the Jailkeeper lowers the chance that there is a cop in the setup, as it were). I'm too lazy to run the numbers since he makes it complex and I'd need to do a lot of special cases but basically his being in the list isn't bad for scum with regards to this strategy.

Mafia who have inspected a player successfully can just kill that player, and so be sure that they are not outing the cop. By repeating this each night (killing the previous inspect result) mafia can know what will flip before they kill it. This will, however, reduce their total knowledge of players roles. If they need to do this in order to keep a fake cop alive, though, they will do it since getting a justifiable fake cop to lylo can easily close out the game for the scum.

The underlying logic of why moving your vote is a towntell is pretty obvious and solid, so it's not that surprising. It's nice to be able to point it out with such a documented history, though.

This exchange feels odd to me for the simple fact that folks don't generally make the firms sort of responses you see in the initial reply ("you'd be fucked if you did that", with supporting details) if they haven't done the odds themselves. However, the question (which doll asked themselves) explicitly states that a scum was lynched D1, but the responses do the math like there are two scum. The initial response after I FOS doll does the math like there are two scum again; my thinking is that Doll might have mucked up the math the first time because to them there are still two scum: doll and their scumbuddy.

I honestly can't comment on whether or not my claim that I got the 'wrong' number (which was, as it stands, the right number - for the initial situation described and on which that post was commenting) was actually true because I can't remember if I had actually been thinking of the other case at that time. I do know that the thing which made me comment on my 'wrong maths' was that I had gotten conjugated the live scum and the dead townie as empty points and treated them as only one non-target during my working out - in the later post. This whole chain of reasoning is curious to me (as a useless, academic thing - the whole ordeal seems rather pointless for you to be going through), because your premise is based on my intentionally asking about something which I did the odds on as being a great opportunity to exploit - for me as scum. Asking about this raised awareness, particular among the key 4maskwolf/Webadict/Hapah demographic that I was relying upon to sure up my technical analysis throughout the thread (i.e. to catch me if I ever fuck up my math).

I (and 4maskwolf) do a lot of math in my mafia. You can see this very heavily in Day 3 of P25, where I do nothing but math for quite a while (and then go inactive) - and 4maskwolf joins in (incidentally, if you check scumchat, they realize that my lockstep plan would win the game for town - because town had such an overwhelming mechanical advantage. That sort of autoloss for scum is only really going to occur here if we start hitting guilty inspects while mislynches are floating around [the classic, scum 1 claims cop when the cop has a guilty on scum 2 being the most likely case] or the scum completely miss the cop and his activity).

The other bit, for me at least, is that doll seems a little....arrogant is the word I'm going to use, though I don't know the right one? Already lining up lynches for the next day without evaluating the results of the first one, or the results of the night actions. It's not a lot to go on (hell, I'm not evening voting on it), but it's curious enough to me (and in my eyes we're lynching someone for less). That's all for now!

Arrogant works. Webadict called it confident. The simple fact is that I knew that nobody could push a lynch on me today, and they didn't - because it would cost the town too much to be wrong and nobody has any overwhelming reason to think that they would be right (see: Webadict's commentary on this).
As soon as you decide who you are lynching on any given day, you can either stop using that lynch as a threat or stop tightening your grip on your actual target. If I wasn't lining other players up to be lynched tomorrow, I couldn't threaten both them and 4maskwolf today.

[4maskwolf]

Sorry guys, I'm going to have to replace out.

My life isn't open enough for mafia at the moment, especially not mafia games where I have to think over a long period of time, between work and coming down with the flu and all that fun stuff.

Have fun everyone, and remember: at its core, mafia is just a game.  If you stop having fun, you've lost the point behind mafia.

[TheBiggerFish]

Oh good grief.

How many replacements is this, anyway?

But...Yeah, have fun with whatever else you do, 4mask, k?



Well this is disappointing.

[TheDarkStar]

4maskwolf is up for replacement.

[johiah]

I'm gonna need to be replaced.
I just don't have the time nor the interest for this. Frankly reading you guys is way more interesting than trying to think of my own questions that will likely accomplish nothing.

[TheDarkStar]

johiah is up for replacement.

[webadict]

Oh good grief.

How many replacements is this, anyway?

But...Yeah, have fun with whatever else you do, 4mask, k?



Well this is disappointing.

Hey man, it happens. I got super busy at work and home. I like playing, but I can't be here enough to make it work.

[Hapah]

bluh bluh
Quote

    The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:
    The message exceeds the maximum allowed length (40000 characters).

Split into three posts instead I guess.

Yup, not reading that tonight, lol. Will take a stab at it tomorrow.

[Tiruin]

I'm gonna need to be replaced.
I just don't have the time nor the interest for this. Frankly reading you guys is way more interesting than trying to think of my own questions that will likely accomplish nothing.

Taking the time out to do something does give time though--the day WILL end today (or at least, it's Wednesday 10:30am on my time), so if you or 4mask can still hold on until then, it may help as much as possible.

In the meantime if you are actually gone after you had posted the 'request for replacement', unvoting is also a complimentary etiquette.

[TheBiggerFish]

It's a third of the players that just asked for replacements...

TDS:What's the plan here?

[TheDarkStar]

It's a third of the players that just asked for replacements...

TDS:What's the plan here?

I'm still ending the day Wednesday, since the night should give us a chance to find replacements.

[doll]

hey uh,
probably not a good time to mention this but
request replacement
I'm going to be very busy indeed for an indeterminate and hopefully indefinite period of time as of a little over a day from now, so ideally you'll never see me again.