First thing's first:
Gentlefish4maskwolf has done you a tremendous favor by drawing the town's attention. Most of the points I'll be making with regards to him are things you should keep in mind for your own play. Consider this a free opportunity to establish a history of play that'll make you look like town; if you read what I tell 4maskwolf he should
have done then you'll see what you should
do now.
And second:
doll:Why bring up your suspicions of Wuba being a power role in public like this? Do you know something we don't?
I never said that Webadict has a power role. I said that he fits the basic pattern for doing so. Incidentally, this is largely how web plays. I'm not sure whether or not Webadict would be happy to see me eat the night kill, and this is more or less what I was fishing for information on (by starting up the game of trying to move the nightkill around). Anyway, to answer your questions:
Webadict has settled into a comfortable yet powerful position, from which he is likely to survive and have fairly good control of the lynch regardless of his role or alignment. Yes, I do know something you don't; I know that Webadict eating a nightkill would be fucking fantastic for me because then I wouldn't need to decide whether or not he's town.
JohiahThis may be a confronting question, though I don't intend it to be, but:
Are you likely to ever play here again?
If not, I would recommend that rather than try to force your way through a game you don't really want to be in, you just replace out.
If you do stick around, do note that replacements are effectively permanent (as a general rule) and that it's pretty common for players to be inactive over the weekend anyway.
Also I may be talking to a brick wall, since you might have already left. Who knows.
That outburst was probably fake or a desperate attempt to be town read.
correct
What a fantastic response.
Or, in other words:
Fun fact:
4maskwolf hasn't done anything since his first post during RVS other than answer questions and (try to get townread).
Before I bully 4maskwolf, I'm going to elaborate on why I didn't vote him earlier and why I have been so reticent to pursue him on any given issue.
The basic idea is as follows: the ameliorating factor of the Day 1 blues leaves a lot of doubt as to whether or not a deliberately useless (yet fundamentally competent) player is actually scum, 4maskwolf is very strong scum and excellent at scrambling out from under the lynch, it's hard to move the town in a dramatic fashion without a lot of evidence, evidence (such as it were) was building slowly due to the low impact gameplay of a BM Day 1, inactivity/nonactivity based evidence grows in strength the longer it sits, and I was expecting my read on 4maskwolf to get more precise when he went into Day 2 (whereas it was unlikely to improve nearly as much on players like johiah/gentlefish etc.).
As a bonus, 4maskwolf was at high risk of night activity which would largely render the whole expedition obsolete.
Now, by not voting 4maskwolf I was able to establish a pattern of very light touches upon his misplay. When I actually suspect a player is scum (as opposed to merely wanting to get something out of them) I will not pressure them. Pressuring a player who hasn't played well is a way of giving them an out of their poor play; all they need to do to get out of the pressure is play well. 4maskwolf is capable of that.
A player who slips as scum, however, can be pressured against that slip. Either they will crack or they will be crushed to death. Sometimes if they are hard enough or the town is soft, they might shoot out and avoid the lynch, but it's much harder to do so than against wishy-washy allegations like those based on broad playstyle commentary.
If I'm talking like this, does that mean that 4maskwolf slipped?
Well, yes and no.
Fundamentally, the case against 4maskwolf hasn't changed. He hasn't done anything to find scum. Nothing at all. Not one thing.
He hasn't pressured a single player. He hasn't asked a single question.
But isn't that a gross overstatement? What about his questions in RVS? What about his case on TBF? What about his case on doll?
Ah, but did he follow up on those questions? I'll cut to the chase and say: he only asked RVS questions to roo and hapah and he
never followed up on a single one.
webadict: Not really RVS related, but what's the most important tip you have for the new players here?
doll: Given your seeming high level of experience from outside of Bay12, I'm surprised you chose to sign up as a regular player in a BM. Do you not feel you have enough experience with the Bay12 meta?
Hapah: What's your favorite RVS question and what is your answer to it?
Gentlefish: If you're the cop and sub out to get replaced by a newbie who gets lynched the day they sub in again, I'll never forgive you 
(three year call-back to my first ever BM).
roo: Oh heya. If you had a daykill, who would you use it on and why?
johiah and Doubloon-Seven: Welcome new players! Do you have any previous mafia experience? How did you find our subforum? What inspired you to play a game here?
TheBiggerFish: I'm lazy, so answer the question you asked me.
You could say he was just ... going through the motions. Actually, that is what he was doing. Going through the motions. The mandatory one RVS post, then fielding questions after that so that nobody went after him. Then nothing at all. Not one thing.
What about TBF? That had absolutely nothing to do with the game, like the rest of the TBF lynch.
TBF: Cut it out. Seriously. There's nothing to be gained from antagonizing roo and given your actions last game I'm not feeling particularly charitable with your bullshit this game. I will not hesitate to push your lynch Day One if I believe it will benefit the town to have you gone, regardless of your alignment.
Ah, but this is where 4maskwolf slipped.
How did he slip? Well, quite simply, he went after doll.
Why is this a slip? Because he didn't go after anyone else.
So? He's taken up two pages with this attack.
And? There's no substance to it.
But isn't it hard to gather substance on a lazy Day 1? Yes, that's why I never voted 4maskwolf.
So why is he going after doll? In order to get townread.
4maskwolf cannot lynch me today. He doesn't have a chance, simply because I am active and therefore important in the night game, as I represent a player who will drive the day game, for good (worrying scum) or bad (interesting cop). That is the curse of Day 1. That is why I didn't want to shoot seriously for anyone, because I know that a lot of players don't warm up until after Day 1 and I thought I'd be better off if I shot at one who I thought might (Gentlefish).
Now, can I lynch 4maskwolf? Originally, I thought not, which is why I started to bait him into being useless while casting shade on him; to make it easier to lynch him later. It worked. Then, for no reason at all, he cracked under the pressure. Why was that? Well, it was getting to the point where he would have to do something. After all, if he didn't address my plan he was going to actually have to do some
work and help the town. So, he went after me; this has a dual purpose, which is why I'm being careful here and was anxious not to follow up on him (originally, when I first saw his initial rant, I planned to leave him floating there for quite a while more to gather something more. However, upon review and with the new posts he's made, there's enough to actually go after him). First, if he made a good case on me, I'd read him as town. Second, if I followed up on a poor case against me, he could bait a weak lynch attempt and wriggle out before I could make good on it. This would burn out all the evidence I had from Day 1, because it is effectively useless once town have made the decision to dismiss it in their minds.
So what's next? The case on 4maskwolf?
No. Not yet. I don't have enough for the case on 4maskwolf yet.
This is the part of the lynch which is the most critical and the part which determines whether or not I see 4maskwolf as scum. I must be careful not to trick myself here into thinking that
just because he starts to correct his play it does not mean that his intentions have changed. What happens here is: I ask 4maskwolf for some information, to do something for me. He does this, or he cannot, or he refuses. Either he slips out information that he shouldn't have, or he shows that he hasn't been doing what he should have been. I attempt to explain that his play is malicious or unacceptable. Hopefully, he gets lynched.
4maskwolfPost a complete list of reads. As detailed as you can. In your next post. Complete means a coherent analysis of both playstyle and likelyhood that they are town, as well as any rolepicks. I would struggle to do this myself, so I don't expect you to be able to.
I want you to do this, because if you can't then that means that you have no excuse for not asking questions. None at all.
That means that you don't really care about gathering information from the town.
That means that you are scum.
Anyway, I'll be making an attempt to gather information from 4maskwolf. To set the context for that, I need to apply pressure. To do that effectively, I need to burn through evidence and paint the picture I want you all to see. In other words, consider the following:
Yeah shove it up your ass, I'm never useful on D1 and you goddamn well know it. You've played two other games with me and in both while I was moderately active on D1 there was a large difference between "active" and "useful". So why are you bothering to push me over something you've seen me do as both town and scum?
Regardless of whether or not he does this as town, it is a scummy thing to do. What's worse, by admitting it he attempts to hide behind his meta -
he is making a deliberate decision not to hunt scum, even though he knows that's what town should do.Sorry son, but that logic ain't gonna fly in this building. See, I'm not very effective on D1, but that does not mean that I don't think D1 is important. The longer a day goes on the more information there is for me to analyze later, when I actually come online in the later days. And yes, I need more time to do my very shitty best at acquiring more information to analyze.
See, the problem is that he never does anything to acquire that information. Nothing at all. So what are we to think? Maybe he doesn't need that information? Maybe he's already getting everything he needs? If he is, he must be able to tell me quite a lot about the state of the game and the positions of the players that I don't already know, because I couldn't really say what's going on with Webadict or Gentlefish or Hapah or Johiah or Hector13 or even TBF.
Please. I was in no danger and still don't feel like I'm in any actual danger, and I'm not RattyB. I'm not going to flip the fuck out and try to desperately defend myself just because someone dared say mean words to me. I'm pushing doll to see how he reacts which will give me information down the road and in the here and now, and half of my post is, yes, me thinking out loud, which is why it seems to meander.
Bolded for being wrong.
There is no pressure on me. 4maskwolf has presented all of nothing. He has asked all of nothing.
Surely, you have noticed that my case greatly relies upon 4maskwolf not actually hunting when he goes after me.
Thus, let us consider
what he has actually gone after me with.
doll: You want me to be aggressive? You want me to fight back? Then fine, you can have it. Stop being so standoffish and actually vote for me. You've said I'm your biggest scum suspect, yet you repeatedly vote for people who aren't me. All you're doing is standing back and casting shade for future days, and it doesn't reflect well on you. Setting up lynches ahead of time like that is a pretty basic scum trick: they lynch one town today, cast major shade on another one to make them an easier lynch tomorrow. I doubt you're actually stupid enough to do it so blatantly, which begs the question: what are you trying to do? Are you trying to bait me into being more active and taking a more aggressive stance? Then congratulations, you've succeeded. And now that you have, fucking do something about it. If you think I'm scum, stop dancing around the issue and hit me with your vote. Push me for information, try and force me to crack under pressure. Rally the town and your scumbuddy to try and get me lynched. Because that... that's the way to get me to fight back. You haven't seen it because I've never been under serious pressure in any game we've played together, but when backed into a corner that's when I fight back the hardest and most candidly. So if you want me to do things, that's how you should go about it.
This is a terrible way to hunt for scum. A wall of questions without break like this can be answered in summary, like I am doing here. I don't actually need to address any point I want to avoid. Indeed, I don't even need to answer a single one of the questions. Webadict didn't, when I asked him questions like this and that was fine, because that was part of RVS and I just wanted to sketch out a slightly broader understanding of webadict and this game than I had at that time. You need much better than this to lynch someone.
So let's look at what's actually here, since unlike 4maskwolf I am town and I do want to go through things seriously.
You want me to be aggressive?
Well, actually, I don't care, since I think you're scum.
However, to have gotten my read off of you, you should have asked questions
which would allow you to make a case in the future. Or done something else,
which would allow you to make a case in the future. You've gathered all of jack shit. Tell me what you've found out, and
how what you have done has allowed you to find that. Dead ends are fine,
if you start something.
And you have not.
Stop being so standoffish and actually vote for me.
I was going to say 'no', since this in particular demonstrates my point: 4maskwolf wants to be townread.
As I outlined earlier, making a weak case on 4mask and bouncing off him would lead me to struggle to lynch him later on. Engaging 4maskwolf would appear to legitimize his case. But it isn't legitimate.
You've said I'm your biggest scum suspect, yet you repeatedly vote for people who aren't me. All you're doing is standing back and casting shade for future days, and it doesn't reflect well on you. Setting up lynches ahead of time like that is a pretty basic scum trick: they lynch one town today, cast major shade on another one to make them an easier lynch tomorrow. I doubt you're actually stupid enough to do it so blatantly, which begs the question: what are you trying to do?
4maskwolf
I've got him written down as "probably scum" in my private notes. He's my top scumpick. He really needs to get aggressive if he wants to shake the evil eye that I'm starting to point at him. As it stands, I've forced him back into a defensive posture, and it's establishing a pattern of selfish and unhelpful behavior that I can catch him on at a later date. Hell, I could catch him on it now, but I don't need to. It's there. Everyone's seen it. Anyone who wants to make a case on 4maskwolf can easily do so. I will, eventually, but for now I may as well build one; starting with the foundations i.e. baiting out his posts. If he can switch around and look like town in the interim, so much the better.
Are you trying to bait me into being more active and taking a more aggressive stance? Then congratulations, you've succeeded. And now that you have, fucking do something about it. If you think I'm scum, stop dancing around the issue and hit me with your vote. Push me for information, try and force me to crack under pressure. Rally the town and your scumbuddy to try and get me lynched. Because that... that's the way to get me to fight back.
Fighting
back was never the way out. You needed to fight to the side. You needed to push on
somebody. Somebody who would care.
Do I care? No, not about your 'pressure'. You can't lynch me. I can lynch you, but it's a lot of work, which is why this post is so long.
All you needed to do was show an interest in the game beyond your own survival. You haven't done anything to gather information. I'm pushing on you for a negative (that you have
not tried to gather information) rather than a positive, so all you ever needed to do is show one thing: that you are trying to gather information.
But you're not. Even under pressure, your first instinct was not to gather information, but to get a town-read out of me. You don't care about the state of the game, just that you don't get lynched Day 1.
That suggests that you are scum.
You haven't seen it because I've never been under serious pressure in any game we've played together, but when backed into a corner that's when I fight back the hardest and most candidly.
I have seen it, though not in a game we've been in together. I've seen you go hard as scum in FBYOR2, though not as hard as you struggle when you're the last scum and trying to pull desperately through. Yes, you're a good player and your scum play is phenomenally slippery and hard to crack. Congratulations; that is why I didn't push on you directly. I didn't want it to slip off. You've shown, however, that
you have been waiting for someone to push on you before you act like town. This links into the below:
So if you want me to do things, that's how you should go about it.
Which was covered by another player much better than I could:
you (admit) people have to literally pressure you to play.
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Topic: Beginner's Mafia LXI - [7/9] - Game Over (Read 73038 times)